Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Sound: see all the reviews of the rackmount.  The sound is the same.
    What you hear is what you get.  No one has had much success programming
    sounds for it.  It's not really a synthesizer.  A *synthesizer* would
    be a Kawai K1, or K4, a Korg M1 or T* or M3R, or a Roland D series, to
    name just a few that are based on sampled waveforms.
    
    Keyboard feel: (personally I hate it) most people find it a poor
    compromise between a light plastic keyboard and a real piano action. 
    It is more spring-loaded than it is weighted.  I expect that some
    people really like it.  I like some unusual actions, myself.
    
    Advice: If you need that set of sounds, buy the rackmount at the
    blow-out price.  $699, and put the rest of your money into *any* other
    keyboard of your choice.  It might come with sounds, too!
    
    	Eirikur
    
                                                        

        $699 sounds extremely cheap?!  I have never seen it for under
    $1000.  May I ask where you found it for $699?  May I add something to
    my last note that I forgot to mention: I am also looking for a good
    keyboard controller that produces its own sound as well as controlling
    others and I thought the K1000 would be good for that application.
    
    						Thanks,
    
    						    Peter
    											
    
    					

    The 699 price is for the rack mount, not the keyboard version.
    The keyboard version I have seen for $999 at Sam Ash.
    (which is right down the road from your facility on rt27.
    

    You'll find the 100PX blowout topic in one of the last 20 or so notes.

    Peter:
    	
    	I don't have the specs on the K1000 handy, but while shopping
    for my 1000PX module I did spend a lot of time with the K1000 and
    the K1000 Special Edition.  (This second unit has the A-Soundblock
    of additional sounds included).  
    
    	My impression was that the K1000 was a decent board with good
    keyboard feel, although as EG mentions in .1 you need to try it
    yourself to be sure you like it.  It does not feel exactly like
    a piano, but that might be an advantage in some applications of
    the unit (eg. when playing horn or vibes).  One thing you should
    be aware of is that the K1000 does NOT do aftertouch, something
    which any decent keyboard controller should.  (This is particularly
    odd since the Kurzweil's sound architecture DOES support it).  The
    user interface seemed OK and the workmanship on the units I tried
    all seemed up to snuff.
    
    	Now might be a really good time to drive a HARD bargain with
    dealers on this unit.  As has been documented elsewhere in the Notes,
    Kurzweil modules are being "blown out" by most of the major music
    dealers.  I am sure that you and they could come to an agreement
    on the keyboards although technically they are not part of this
    sale (someone correct me if I'm wrong...PLEASE :-)).  Be prepared
    to retrofit the keyboard with the AFTERTOUCH UPGRADE available from
    Kurzweil if you go with the plain K1000; I think the Special Edition
    has it.
    
    	Kurzweil also is introducing some new keyboards, the names of
    which I don't recall but they are available in their sales literature.
    If you can't find it anywhere else, do what I did; visit or write
    their main office and tell them you are a prospective investor and
    would like a packet of information on the company and its products.
    Besides specs and reviews on their products, there is a cassette
    tape of the Kurzweil 250, in action.  (Gives you something to shoot
    for 8-)).
    
    	As far as other keyboard controllers/synths, unless you want
    to spend a lot of money (ie >$3000), you might want to stick with
    a good synth rather than a KB Controller.  You also need to make
    some decisions like:
    
    	1)  How important is the "feel" of the keyboard?
    
    	2)  What type of use do you expect? (Gigging or Home Studio)?
    
    	3)  Do you like natural (acoustic) or electronic (synthesized)
            sounds?
    
    	4)  Do you need an "on-board" sequencer?
            (4a  Do you know what a sequencer is?)
                                          
        and of course...
    	5)  How much do you have to spend?
                        
    FWIW, I use a KAWAI K5 synthesizer as my main controller.  I found
    that it had the closest feel to a real piano keyboard, while still
    being a synth keyboard.  That sounds confusing, but if you try one
    out you'll see what I mean.  It has a very full MIDI implementation
    and that is something you really want to look for.  That basically
    means that anything that the MIDI protocol allows you to do, you
    will be able to do, should you chose to.  Even if you don't think
    you'll need Aftertouch now, it's nice to have it there when you
    want it later.
       
    	Try spending some time browsing through this Notesfile (if you
    haven't already) and then hit the road and bang on some of these
    machines.  That's really the best way to help you answer some of
    these questions and make a good purchase.
    
    Good Luck,
    Bill

       Thanks a lot.  I really will consider what you said when I look at
    the keyboard for myself (for I have only heard reviews).  Yes, I do
    know what a sequencer is (if that was directed at me) -- I use
    SmpteTrack on my 1040st.  When I called SamAsh, they said that they
    were really trying to get rid of the standard edition of the K1000 and
    were getting the SE in stock.  I guess I will check it out.  One last
    question (sorry, but isn't there always one last question?), how
    multi-timbral is the K1000? (i.e. sequencer use?)  I only have one
    synth and I need a lot of "instruments" and a good keyboard right now to
    sound a little "bigger".  Again, thanks.
    
    
    
    			Peter
    
      

    24-voice unit, responding to 16 MIDI channels.
    
    for a recent buyer's decision, refer to notes 2057.12, 2057.15,
    where a noter decided on the K1000.
    
    karl

    re .7     
    Peter:
    	I hope you didn't take offense at my question about "what is
    a sequencer?".  When I started in this I did NOT know what a sequencer
    was, and from your base note it was not clear if you had one.
    
    	It sounds like you may be doing some of the same things many
    of us are attempting to do with respect to using the multi-timbral
    (Gheez, did you have to say that word :-)) capabilities of your
    equipment to get larger and larger sounds.  IMHO, the Kurzweil and
    the much vaunted PROTEUS are good examples of manufacturers' heeding
    their customers desire to do more with fewer SGUs.  I think the
    K1000 and 1000 Series modules really maximize one's ability to build
    large harmonies with excellent sounds, WITHOUT running out of voices.
    When you combine this with one or two other multi-timbral units,
    you really get an orchestrating capability that was unthinkable just
    a few years ago (at least at the consumer level). 
    
    Incidentally, I checked on the "SE Upgrade" for the K1000 and it
    does include the Monophonic Aftertouch strip to give a retrofitted
    K1000 the ability to TRANSMIT and well as receive Aftertouch.  I
    think you really need Aftertouch in any keyboard you are going to
    use as a master controller.  A price was not mentioned, but it is
    possible that you might be better off buying the K1000 at a close-out
    price and then doing the SE Upgrade, than buying a new (un-discounted)
    K1000SE.  You might check with Kurzweil for the Upgrade price.
    
    Clusters,
    Bill Allen

    I have the rack-mount version, the 1000PX, and there is NO reduction
    of instrument fidelity when you push its polyphony limits.  Rather,
    sustained notes are cut off.  Also you should know there are some
    sounds in the Kurzweil units that involve 'layering'.. compound
    sounds.  So one note played of a combination piano/slow string sound
    actually uses TWO notes of the available 24 at any one instant.
    
    Luckily, the best sounds - piano, string bass, most of the string
    orchestra sounds, clarinet, choir, etc., only use ONE layer, so
    you can get full 24-note polyphony in most cases.
    
    can't go wrong IMHO !  karl

    re .10
    
    	Pertaining to the question of whether or not you really need
    Aftertouch, that has to be a personal decision, of course.  But
    if I was buying a keyboard controller/synth in the price range you
    are considering (ie $1000-2000), I would require that it be able
    to transmit Aftertouch.  This is particularly so in the case of
    the Kurzweil K1000 or 1000 modules, many of whose sounds work with
    aftertouch modulation.
    
    	Just for the record, aftertouch is just another type of MIDI
    controller, like a pitch bender wheel or volume lever.  The Kurzweil's
    and other good synth/samplers utilize aftertouch to allow the player
    to add or subtract any of a number of effects.  For instance, one
    of the patches on the 1000PX is an electric organ with a "Leslie
    rotating speaker".  Depending on how hard you press the keys after
    initially hitting them (aftertouch), the "Leslie" will "spin" changing
    the sound.  Likewise, on the KAWAI K5 you can use aftertouch to
    add patches on the fly.  So you could either stack a piano and string
    together (calling for the string only when you press hard), or stack
    two different horn sounds together (start out mellow but get "brassier"
    the harder you push).
    
    	At any rate, unless one has another keyboard which can transmit
    aftertouch, an owner of a Kurzweil unit would never be able to fully
    realize the potential of even the factory patches, which use this
    feature.  Of course if you know this going into the proposition...
    well then that's another thing :-).
              
    	I think there's a MIDI Glossary floating around somewhere that
    might have more to say on the subject.
    
    Clusters,
    Bill Allen 

    < Note 2090.12 by MUSKIE::ALLEN >
>For instance, one
>    of the patches on the 1000PX is an electric organ with a "Leslie
>    rotating speaker".  Depending on how hard you press the keys after
>    initially hitting them (aftertouch), the "Leslie" will "spin" changing
>    the sound. 
    
    Bill, which one ?  I've never noticed this, and I use a KX88
    with mono aftertouch.
    
    karl

    re .13 
    Karl,
    
    I don't remember which one exactly, but I'll check tonight when I go
    home.  But if YOU don't know about it, Mr K-module, I might of made
    a BOO-BOO!!    :-).
    
    Bill
     

    FWIW - the Quadraverb (Alesis) allows MIDI control of up to 8 different
    effect parameters ... it also has a 'leslie' algorithm.  I tried using
    aftertouch to modulate the speed and the mod wheel to modulate the
    intensity, using an organ patch on an ESQ I had borrowed.

    It sounded, in a word, incredible.

-b

>< Note 2090.15 by DYO780::SCHAFER "Brad - boycott hell." >
>                          -< Quadraverb has Leslie. >-
>
>    FWIW - the Quadraverb (Alesis) allows MIDI control of up to 8 different
>    effect parameters ... it also has a 'leslie' algorithm.  

I'm sure it sounds great. Someday I'll definitely get one, but for right 
now I need a lot of bang for the buck, and  the 1000 PX has Leslie algorithms 
PLUS a lot of great sounds. For $699 I couldn't resist.

Mike D 

    >>> > For instance, one of the patches on the 1000PX is an electric
    >>> > organ with a "Leslie rotating speaker".  Depending on how hard you
    >>> > press the keys after initially hitting them (aftertouch), the
    >>> > "Leslie" will "spin" changing the sound. 
    >>>
    >>> Bill, which one ?  I've never noticed this, and I use a KX88
    >>> with mono aftertouch.
    
    The patch(es) on the 1000PX which are explicitly souped-up to deal
    wqith aftertouch usually have "Ppress" in the name.  This is because
    they are designed to handle polyphonic aftertouch.  (The K1000, I
    believe has similar patches with Mpress in the name, indicating that
    they are intended for Monophonic pressure.)  As Bill mentioned, I think
    there is an "Organ Ppress or some such in the stock 1000PX.
    
    The downside for you, Karl, is that the patch will ignore channel
    aftertouch (Mono Pressure) since it's expecting Poly Pressure. 
    However, if you went into the various layers and effects menus, you
    could most likely find the controller that is set to Poly Pressure and
    change it to Mono Pressure and save the changed patch in one of the
    user-programmable areas (64-127 or so).
    
    I also think that the mono (or is it poly?) pressure organ patch is one
    documented as an example at the end of the 1000 series user's guide
    where they explain how their hard-copy patch sheets are set-up and
    used.
    
    - John - 
    

    Mono Press Organ #47 does in fact spin the 'Leslie'.. I hate that
    particular patch, and the spin doesn't cycle realistically like
    using the LFO wheel on #46 and #48.  I LOVE those.. nice fat B3
    sounds with keyclick.. the 'Leslie' speeds up and slows down like
    the rotor has inertia.
    
    karl

>< Note 2090.18 by SALSA::MOELLER "Nested assumption calls" >
>                            -< found it.  hate it. >
>
>    Mono Press Organ #47 does in fact spin the 'Leslie'.. I hate that
>    particular patch, and the spin doesn't cycle realistically like
>    using the LFO wheel on #46 and #48.  I LOVE those.. nice fat B3
>    sounds with keyclick.. the 'Leslie' speeds up and slows down like
>    the rotor has inertia.

I'll go one further than that Karl. Yes #46 and #48 do spin up/down 
realistically like a real Leslie---BUT before they spin up and after they spin 
down, they are in a state where there is no Leslie on at all. This sounds much
too static and lifeless to me. When I had real Leslies, I used to set them up 
so that they always had the Leslie slow speed on and when you kicked the button,
they'd ramp up to the fast speed. Kick the button again and they ramp down to 
the slow speed--but never OFF. It just wasn't done. Even a real Hammond sounds
too static with absolutely no Leslie on, in my opinion. It's just another one 
of those little bummers that I'll have to program my way around (hopefully, 
if I am clever enough).

PS I'll never part with my Korg CX3. It has a built-in Leslie effect that 
allows this, and also it has on-board distortion so you can get that over-
driven Leslie sound. 

Mike D

RE: <<< Note 2090.19 by MARLIN::DIORIO "No, I'm not bored...really...Zzzzzzzzzzzzz" >>>
>                       -< I never shut my Leslie off... >-
>down, they are in a state where there is no Leslie on at all. This sounds much

True enough.  But one of the organ patches does have the Leslie on "slow",
then adding the effect speeds it to full throttle.  Not sure which.  But, it
can be done.

Andy

    #44, another fave, sounds very good at 'idle', but the fast spin
    is unrealistic.  #46 is overall the best, there is a slow spin effect
    going on, whereas #48 IS completely stopped.
    
    karl

I've just heard of a used Kurzweil 1000SE for about $900, which sounds like it
could be a credible master controller. From this discussion, it sounds like its
sounds (?!) could also be an asset, though I understand that it's in essence
simply a sample playback machine.

Is the 1000PX essentially a rackmount 1000SE, or are they totally different
beasts? Either way, any new opinions on it?

Cheers,
	Bob

    I'm not familiar with the K1000SE, only the K1000.
    
    I would NOT say that the K1000 would make a good master controlller.
    I found the keyboard more than a bit to "chincy" for me to play on
    very effectively.
    
    What does that mean?  The keys are not only not weighted, they are
    incredibly light, the action feels very squishy, and something
    about the way the keys bounced back after being released made it
    very difficult for me to play for some reason.
    
    Of course, these are all personal and subjective criticisms, another
    reasonable person could like the keyboard.  I just felt that they
    really skimped on that part of it.  Otherwise I love the sounds and
    would have preferred it over my RD-300.

Thanks, db. I did scan the existing K-notes since my query, and found a lot of
good info. I'm only puzzled by the fact that at least one source had mentioned
that the keyboard was "sort of" or partially weighted. Judging from your
"feel" report, apparently it's not enough to be effective.

I did want to make sure this wasn't such a great deal that I shouldn't pass it
up- I'm sort of glad it isn't, actually!

Bob