Conference napalm::commusic_v1

	What kind of music are you intending to produce?

	Dan

    Frank, for a good summary of some synth prices, check out Chad's
    reply to note 1992.
    
    I think more info is needed before people can really help, eg budget,
    skill level, overall goals. It's  a big MIDI world and the choices
    are many. 
    
    As a start you may want to check out some of the Music publications,
    there is one I saw on the shelf yesterday (sorry but can't remember
    name) that has a major article on understanding MIDI. 
    
    There are several options for MIDI interface too. A simple one in/one
    out for the MAC may cost only about $100 (give or take a bit), but
    if you want tape sync or SMPTE you're looking at a LOT more.
    
    There are many notes in this file that contain advice on how to
    start so perhaps checking them out first may be a good idea.
    
    Another idea may be to download the Master Tracks Pro demo from
    RT95:: (see the Macintosh forum). You obviously wont be able to
    hear anything but it will give you an idea of the software. There
    is also a topic in this notes file on MTP that could be of interest.
    
    Ken
    

    Thanks for the info.  I've spent a couple of hours looking
    thru this notes file and got most of the answers I was looking for.
    
    Regards,
    
    Frank.

    I currently have a Kawai K1-r and an IBM PC.  I am wondering if it is
    best to get a MIDI card, some software and a MIDI keyboard, or should I
    invest in a workstation.  I would like to do all kinds of music with
    one of these systems, and possibly use it on stage.  I am a guitar
    player who does not play keyboards very well.  Any type of info on
    which way to go would be appreciated.
    
    Byron

    A PC-based sequencer is almost certainly more powerful and easier to
    use, due to greater processing power (depending on your PC's CPU), more
    memory (depending...) and MOSTLY because the PC is a comparatively
    giant (and possibly graphic) display. (I apologize for all the
    parenthetical statements). A MIDI card ($100) plus software ($100-$400)
    plus MIDI keyboard ($100-$700) is going to be much cheaper than a work
    station, and more versatile, EXCEPT that you'll have to lug your PC to
    gigs :(.
    
    When the guy from Dr. T's came to demo his sequencer software at the
    Boston Computer Society's Computer Music Group, he brought a portable
    PC and a 2.5-foot red-platic keyboard with mini-keys... which he
    praised as the cheapest and most easily carried MIDI keyboard extant.
    If you're not a keys guy, and only want a keyboard to facilitate data
    entry, then save your bucks and get one of these little guys (the Dr. T
    demo was a couple years ago, I don't know if they're still around or
    what they're called, etc [big help]).
    
    For the price of a workstation, you can probably trade-in your PC for a
    rack-mounted equivalent and be way cool!
    
    - Hoyt

    A 2.5 red plastic keyboard with mini-keys would have to be the Yamaha
    SHS-10.  No velocity, no touch, but it works as a "data entry" device.
    There is another topic in here about it.

    Thanks for the info.  I will probasbly end up using my PC then for
    sequencing.  However, it may be another year or so before I get this
    thing going and I'm wondering should I unload my K1-r?  By today's
    standard's these units are becoming old.  Do you feel I  
    would be better off with a keyboard/synth or a rackmount synth with a
    MIDI keyboard?

Re .7:

My own opinion is that you should get a keyboard synth, with at least 61
full-size keys, *iff* you can afford one with aftertouch and sensitivity at a
minimum. Rationale: you can use such a beast for a *long* time as a main MIDI
controller, upgrading SGUs as desired. Many keyboard versions of synths aren't *that* much more
than equivalent rackmount units. Also, you can play compositions directly into
a sequencer, for eventual transfer (if required) to a notation program for
printing.

If you can afford it, you may end up doing better to keep the K1r. As you say,
they're a bit passe as SGUs go, which means you won't get much. On the other
hand, in combination with other more "chic" units, they're every bit as useful
as they ever were (whatever your opinions on that are). I like my Kawai K1-II
(the keyboard version of the K1r) just fine, even if I would like to add
something else eventually.

It ends up being a personal decision in the end. Good luck making the "right
choice" for you.

Cheers,
	Bob

	As much as manufacturers would have you believe that your K1r is
becoming obsolete, don't you believe it!  A piece is only  as obsolete as you
allow it to be!  Every one of my sound modules (with the exception of the drums)
are older than your K1R and I consider my studio a pretty hip place to make 
music.  My MKS7 is perhaps the oldest piece of MIDI gear I have and it still
performs staple functions in nearly every arrangement I write!  

	The point here is - if you use it and you like the sounds - keep it!  If
you're looking for something that fits *you* and *your music* better, get rid of
it (or add to it).  Now I understand when economics play into it...  but don't
let some abstract notion of obsolecence cloud your senses if your happy with
what you have.

	Dan (who has sold thingsd in the past for fear of obsolecence and 
		regretted it later)

	On more thing about modules "getting old"

	My TX81Z has had a lot of new life breathed into it simply by finding 
new patches that matched up with more current sounds coming from more current
modules.  A synthesizer by its very nature is limitless in its potential (unless 
its entirely preset - and even then it may be programmable via system exclusives, 
like my MKS7).  Now some synth architectures are better at some types of sounds
than others, fer sure.  But synthesizers are there to create sound - don't catch
yourself feeling limited simply by what the factory loaded into it at the time 
of manufacturing!

	I use very few of the ROM presets in the TX81Z.  I have actually owned 
some newer models of synths (I had one of the "hottest" modules of last year - 
the Korg M3R - and I got rid of it.  The TX81Z was much more useful to my
style of music.

	I say this to give you a comparison - the TX81Z predates the K1r by at 
least a year or more!  And it doesn't even have built-in reverb like the K1r!

	Dan

    Tahnks again for the info.  What I would really like to do is add some
    more sounds to my K1-r and to pick up a keyboard synth so I have two
    synths to work with.  I just hope I can afford to have both.  Well I
    think that what I will do next is to get a RAM card for my K1-r with
    some sounds on it.  Anybody recommend any cards out there with a good
    variety of sounds on it?  I would like a better piano sound and maybe
    some kind of cool analog synth type sounds. 
    
    Byron

    Byron,
    Back a few years ago, when I owned a K1-m, the store where I got
    it gave me (for free) tons of sounds that Kawai has. I had to buy
    a RAM card, then I'd get it loaded at the store, load it into my
    computer, got back and get it loaded again, etc.  Might be worth
    checking into.  Can't beat the price, and they were excellent patches.
    
    Rodney

I've been read-only in here for some time.  I would like to get into
commusic and would like to make sure I understand what I asking for when I
go out shopping.  What follows is some background on what I want, what
I understand the technology can do and some questions.  Any help would be
apprecitated.

I play acoustic and electric guitar and a little piano.  I am running my
guitar into my stereo (8 channel mixer into 100W amp into Klipschorns) and
would like to use this for my commusic.  I am soon to get a Mac II.  I
would like to get a SGU, sequencer and Band-in-a-Box to use as a "home
backup band".  Sometime in the future I would like to move from the baby
grand piano to an electronic keyboard using the SGU and would like to add
some effects for my electric guitar that hopefully could be used with the SGU.

My questions are:

1) Will I need a MIDI board for the MAC?  If not, how do I get signals to
   the SGU?

2) I am assuming 4MB memory and 40MB disk will get me started.  How big 
   do commusic libraries get and what should I be using to manage this 
   library?  Does this depend on the sequencer I use?

3) Band-in-a-Box -  My understanding is that this package will generate 
   sequences for three instruments (drums, piano, bass) given chord
   changes and definition of the type of music (reggae, soft-rock,
   country, ect.) into a MIDI file that can be sent to a SGU for 
   generation of the actual music.  I would like for my sequencer 
   software to be able to "edit" this file to assign the tracks 
   to specific instruments in the SGU and to add other tracks.  Is
   my understanding of what I can do with Band-in-a-Box correct?

4) Sequencer software - My understanding is that this is the software 
   that allows for preparation and editing of MIDI files that can be 
   sent to the SGU.  Some choices I have seen mentioned in this 
   conference include:      
       ConcertWare	   appx $150 for CW+MIDI
       Performer	   appx $300 for both packages
       Finale		   appx $500
       MOTU Performer      appx $370
       Master Tracks PRO4        ???

   Do these sequencers do what I want them to?  While I am fairly
   technical, can program fairly well and want a sequencer that will 
   not quickly become limiting, I would probably prefer a sequencer
   that had a good user-interface (similar to the MAC) over a more
   fully featured package.  Which of these (or other) sequencers 
   you you recommend that I look at first?

5) SGU - Since I have a habit of keeping hardware for long periods
   of time, I would like to get a SGU that I would not grow out of
   quickly.  While some ability to upgrade would be a nice feature,
   I would prefer to get something that could play a rather large
   number of voices at the same time (polyphony?) and had a large choice
   of instruments that sound fairly realistic.  From what I have read
   in here, any of the Proteus units would probably do nicely.  Am I
   correct in what a SGU does?  Would one of the Proteus units be 
   preferable over the others for my needs?  Is there another SGU
   I really should be considering?

6) Keyboard - Can I later by a quality keyboard and use it to "drive"
   the SGU to output piano and other instruments?  Can such a keyboard
   be used to generate tracks that could be edited by the sequencer?
   Could such a keyboard be considered a viable replacement option for 
   the baby grand piano?

7) Demonstrations - Where should I go in the Boston area to see a 
   demonstration of this type of configuration?

8) Am I out to lunch in my understanding of what this technology can do?
     
Thanks for any help with this.

Jim

1) Will I need a MIDI board for the MAC?  If not, how do I get signals to
   the SGU?

    Two ways to go on this.  Some MIDI switcher boxes have a SERIAL line
    over to the MAC, obviating the need for a MIDI port directly on the
    MAC's serial port.  Old MACs had one-in, 3-out ports screwed directly
    to either the modem or printer port.  More recently, combination MIDI
    switcher/routner/MAC interface/SMPTE sync hybrid boxes have come out,
    assuming you have more than one SGU, a MAC, and a tape recorder you
    want the MAC to sync up to.  
    
2) I am assuming 4MB memory and 40MB disk will get me started.  How big 
   do commusic libraries get and what should I be using to manage this 
   library?  Does this depend on the sequencer I use?

    Well, 4Meg will cover every hot sequencer/editor program I've heard of. 
    MIDI files don't take tons of disk space.  What DOES is sample files on
    disk.  There's a buncha editor/librarians available, depending on SGU
    choice.
    
3) Band-in-a-Box -  I'm unqualified.
    
4) Sequencer software
    ...
    Finale		   appx $500  this is a music PRINTING package only
       Performer	   appx $300 for both packages
       MOTU Performer      appx $370  SAME as Performer
    	
    I use Performer exclusively.  It has a companion product, Composer,
    that allows Performer sequences to be imported, cleaned up, and printed
    in semistandard notation format.  It has an easy to understand tape
    recorder metaphor interface, so you can get started very quickly, but
    has so much depth that I'm still learning about it, and I've been using
    it since 1987.  Of course, they've upgraded it about 10 times since
    1987, so it's no wonder there's new things to learn.  I suggest
    watching the music comix, EQ, Keyboard, Electronic Musician, etc. for
    competitive reviews.

5) SGU - 
    A sampler or sample player is the way to go if you hear real
    instruments in your head.  E-Mu Systems isn't going away, and the
    Proteus family is new enough that it'll probably be around for quite a
    while.  But there's quite a bit of difference in using an SGU with all the
    sounds permanently fried into ROM vs. a loadable system.   The ROM
    based unit has the convenience of hundreds of sounds available to MIDI
    Patch Change requests.  A hard-disk/floppy/ROMcard based unit has more
    flexibility, but probably wouldn't have 256 sounds available at one
    time.  
    
6) Keyboard - Can I later by a quality keyboard and use it to "drive"
   the SGU to output piano and other instruments?  
    
    yes.  What do you plan to use before you purchase the MIDI keyboard
    controller ?  It IS possible, though incredibly tedious, to enter music
    into all commercial MAC sequencers thru the MAC keyboard - called 'step
    time entry'.  Not me, thanks.
    
    >Can such a keyboard be used to generate tracks that could be edited 
    >by the sequencer?
    
    Yes.  If the controller keyboard sends MIDI, it can be intercepted by
    the MAC sequencer and edited/transposed to your heart's content.
    
>   Could such a keyboard be considered a viable replacement option for 
>   the baby grand piano?
    
    Yes, depending on the quality of the piano sounds in the SGU(s), and
    depending on whether you bought an 88-note velocity-sensing MIDI
    controller with acceptable action.  There are several available, there
    was a 'shootout' in Keyboard magazine a month or two ago.  I use a
    relatively old Yamaha KX88, and am still really happy with it and the
    piano sounds from the Kurzweil 1000PX SGU. 

7) Demonstrations - not qualified in MASS.

8) Am I out to lunch in my understanding of what this technology can do?
    
    You seem to have a handle on the polyphony issue, and seem to
    understand what an SGU can/can't do.  This is the right place. Back
    in 1986 I had a 4 track, a Rhodes, a couple effects and mics, and an
    acoustic piano.  Then I discovered this conference.  Today...
    
    karl in tucson az

    Re .14: Finale is a do-it-all sequencer, NOT just a notation program.
    
    If you (.13) are only a modest pianist (unlike Karl "Megachops" M.)
    then you do NOT need anything like the size and expense of a dedicated
    88-key controller. You will probably be very happy with a cheap, 62-key
    MIDI keyboard. I'm always recommending the Yamaha YPR-9, which weighs
    about 15 pounds, runs on batteries, has built-in speakers, good vibes,
    harpsichord and electric piano sounds (NOT good acoustic piano), and
    runs maybe $300 in the used market. There are any number of analogous
    instruments. THE KEY FEATURE YOU MUST SECURE IS TOUCH SENSITIVITY, i.e.
    it's louder when you hit the key harder. The YPR has it.
    
    Have fun, and welcome to one of the most efficient ways to get rid of
    your extra cash! - Hoyt

I had a friend that like to design keyboards and years ago he told me that
keyboards that got louder when you struck the keys harder were "velocity
sensitive". What was also interesting was organs, pianos, and harpsichords
were very different in this regard. Harpsichords do not get louder no matter
how hard you bang on them. A good player shifts the time the key is struck
and the ear hears the note being played at the *wrong* time as louder than
it really is. Organs *swell* so that all notes on the keyboard get louder
or softer together. Only Pianos differentiate and can respond to velocity
(striking the keys harder and softer), pitch (which key you strike), and 
tempo (when you strike the keys).

I was amused to find the Harpsichord on my KORG T2 is velociy sensitive.
           

Does anyone know if Band-in-a-Box generates files that one of these sequencers 
can edit?

Jim

    
    
    Yes, it does!  And it's great for hacking out backing tracks in a
    hurry.  Write them out to a standard MIDI file and pull that into your
    sequencer for further manipulation.
    

I spent this past weekend playing with Band In a Box upgrade 4.0.3 and Vision moving the files from Band in the Box out as Midi Files and into Vision with no
problems.