Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    RE-1
    
    Don't build it into your Hifi system in the living room when your
    studio is in the ATTIC. You will never move it.
        
    						Paul.

    Run a "saturation test" to see how much headroom you really have
    compared to how much the VU meters on the front claim.
    
    Then try and record about 3 dB below that.
    
    -----
    
    Don't clean the heads until you no longer can get a solid "HiFi
    Lock" light.  Don't bother with a head-cleaning tape- take the top
    off and go at it with freon swabs.
        
    -----
    
    Use top-quality tape (I like Memorex HX Pro, personally)
    
    -----
    
    Don't bother trying "punch-in/punch-out".  It won't work- the glitch
    will be audible.
    
    	-Bill	

    Congrats.  You won't regret it.. just try to watch videos on a DAT
    player..
    
    seconds on Bill's suggestion re finding the saturation point, and
    then backing off some.  Experimentation (or the manual) will tell 
    you if you've got peak-reading or averaging meters.  You need to
    know where 0 DB is...
    
    I pray your deck has a true input level control, not the auto-leveling
    feature I see most often.  That will of course blow any dynamics
    away by compressing the signal.
    
    Some decks have a 'marker' feature which allows you to put an inaudible
    mark on the tape and to fast forward to the next (video) selection.  Mine
    does NOT work in PCM mode, and I haven't tried it in HiFi mode..
    would be a neat way to skip forward to a specific piece.

    karl

    Here's some (stream of consciousness here):
    
    1) Don't record at the very beginning of the tape.  That's where
       you almost ALWAYS get dropouts.
    
    2) Start recording by hitting record, pressing pause, wait for
       the heads to start up, and then pressing unpause.
    
       On most decks, this will reduce the size of the gap and give
       you a smoother cut.
    
    3) Many manufacturers recommend that you always record a good video
       signal with the audio.  I just always do it.
    
    4) Karl mentioned the auto-leveling (sometimes called "AGC" for
       automatic gain control, sometimes called other things).  If your
       VCR has no way to defeat this, you might want to consider trading
       it in for another unit.  It's like a cheap breathy compressor.
    
    5) Unlike Bill Y., I never found much difference between the grades
       of tapes.  I was relieved to see that Consumer Reports largely
       agrees with me on that.  Looking at their ratings you see very
       little correspondence between grade and quality and the so-called
       "HiFi" grades appear to be nothing but a markup.
    
       Despite this, if audio quality is really important to me, I use
       the Sony Pro-X grade (I've only seen it at Tower records in Boston).
       It wasn't rated in the Consumer Reports but I have heard folks say
       that it makes a difference, but it's VERY expensive... likee $25
       for a Beta L-500!
    
    6) I'd go for the thickest tape formulations possible: T-60's instead
       of T-120's, etc.  Since your making copies from it, it has to be
       able to withstand more wear better than most typical videotape 
       applications.
    
    7) Be warned that tape foul-ups are INEVITABLE and that while a
       fouled audio tape can often be salvaged, a videotape can rarely
       be salvaged.  You oughta give consideration to having duplicates,
       and of COURSE, be very careful with the tape and avoid the
       common things that cause it to foul up (like don't use an important
       tape if either the VCR or tape is not at room temperture, or if
       the humidity is excessively high).
    
    8) Don't use those cartridge style tape cleaners.  Have it
       professionally cleaned or clean it yourself (I use the DEC FS
       tape cleaning kits).
    
    9) Always make sure the tracking is adjusted properly.   Tracking
       doesn't seem to have a large effect on audio quality (as it does
       on video quality) but you don't want your deck getting too far
       out of alignment.  If you find that you have to run with the
       tracking adjustment too far out of center, you might want to
       get it looked at.   You risk making tapes that can't be played on
       a properly adjusted deck.
    
    10) Be careful using the infra-red remote with the VCR while recording.
       I've seen at least one deck where infra-red signals are recorded
       as annoying blips in the audio and video.
    
    	db

Len (and others who might be interested),

You may wish to look at the DSSDEV::VIDEO notes file for additional
information.  The ideal deck is one that can mark and erase without
affecting the picture (a new feature in VHS decks), and one that has a
flying erase head (FEH, a head on the drum that removes most if not all of
the glitch--a new feature on VHS).  I believe Sony now has a VHS deck with
these features.  If you don't have a FEH and still can return your deck,
you may wish to stop by a store and try both types to see if the extra
feature is worth the bucks.  If I were buying now, I'd specify a FEH as a
requirement. 

Without the FEH, you should try to record by placing the deck into record
and pause and only pausing rather than stopping during the recording
session.  Note that most decks automatically go out of pause and stop if
you don't unpause them within about 6 or 7 minutes so you need to have
things ready.

I agree with db on everything he mentioned in reply .4.  Regarding 5), I
too have not been able to hear the differences between grades.  I stick
with Sony and TDK, myself (due to the poor linear track audio response of
Maxell I avoid that brand because of family and friends who don't have
hifi decks).  Regarding 8), note that  Radio Shack sells a cleaning kit
for about $10 that really works (44-1172). Don't clean until you *really*
see snow on the screen.  Regarding 9), note that on most decks, the
tracking adjustment that the user can access is for playback only.  

Good luck,

Alex

    Another thought.. you can BACK UP your favorite tapes by borrowing
    or renting another VHS deck, not necessarily HiFi, and make a digital
    copy of your music by using the VIDEO ports and cable.  Just make
    sure the second deck is running at SP speed, too.  
    
    regarding speeds... It might be tempting to record at EP speed and
    get 6 hours on one tape.. bite it and use SP.. 2 hours/tape.  I
    use TDK HS 120 tape.  I wouldn't use any thinner/longer tape, but
    question the need to get the thick/durable 60 minute tape.
    
    karl

    
    
    re -1
    
    How can you do that unless you have a digital audio deck. I don't
    think len said he had bought a digital VHS deck. He said he bought
    a HIFI deck. which last time I asked you told me was Analogue.
    Que pasa ?
    
    						Paul.

    re .7 re .6 - right, my deck (a Mitsubishi U50) has no digital
    capability.  The documentation on its audio capabilities is minimal.
    There is no reference to AGC, but there are also no manual level
    controls for the audio inputs.  I assume that if there were AGC
    the marketing types would make sure the manual bragged about it,
    so I assume it's not there.  The lack of level controls is not a
    problem, as I can control the levels fed to the deck from my board.
    
    Re db's suggestion to always record video as well, where does one
    conveniently get a video signal in an audio studio?
    
    len.
    

RE: .6

Actually I haven't ever used anything beside 120.  The important point is
to avoid the longer 160 length.

Regarding speeds, for *video* EP is clearly not as good as SP.  But I have 
found it hard if not impossible to tell the difference between SP and EP
as far as the HIFI sound is concerned.  I don't remember anyone in the
video notes file stating that they could hear the difference either.  The
only rationale I have heard for SP (for HIFI only) is for archival
use.  

The idea is that as tape deteriorates, more information crammed on the
tape will be more easily affected.  The metaphor used was shooting bullets
at two pictures.  If one picture has three times the area of the other (SP
vs EP), the larger picture will be proportionally less affected  by each
bullet.  I guess the bullets in this case are the metal particles on the
tape that deteriorate. 

Alex

>    The documentation on its audio capabilities is minimal.
>    There is no reference to AGC, but there are also no manual level
>    controls for the audio inputs.  I assume that if there were AGC
>    the marketing types would make sure the manual bragged about it,
>    so I assume it's not there.
    
    I would tend to doubt that that's the correct assumption in this
    case.   I've always been under the assumption that most decks
    have it, and that the difference is whether or not you can defeat
    it.
    
    That plus the lack of level controls sorta makes me wonder if this
    is really a good deck for your purposes, but I can't tell with
    any degree of certainty.
    
    If there's no way for you to generate a video signal where you have
    it, am I correct in presuming that this deck is intended only for
    audio use?
    
    If so, I'd really recommend getting a Beta instead of a VHS.  These
    days, with Beta all but vanquiahed in the market place, you can pick
    up a fully featured Beta that will blow the doors off any equivalent
    priced VHS.
    
    Beta also has the following advantage:
    
    	o Higher quality audio
    
    	  Beta modulates the audio into unused bandwidth in the video
    	  signal.  VHS uses a bizarre strategy they call "depth
          multiplexing".  It has lower quality and lower reliability.
    
    	o Time counter instead of linear counter.
    
          Almost all betas have elapsed time index counters.   Almost
          all VHS have numerical index counters.   I have found the time
          counters far more convenient.
    
    	o Better transport
    
    	  Most VHS's have to retract the tape from the heads to FF or RW.
    	  It's time consuming, clunky and wears out the mechanisms.
    	  Betas just loosen the tension around the heads.  It's MUCH
          faster and it makes it easier to position the tape exactly
    	  where you want it.
    
    	  (The counter argument is that RW/FF induce more wear on the
          heads but history has demonstrated that Beta heads outlast
          VHS heads so I think that's just "bunk".)
    
    	  If you're making lots of copies of a song, for example,
    	  you'll be spending a lot of time loading and retracting
          the tapes from the heads, and more time positioning the tape
          and there'll be more wear on your deck.
    
          It really depends on the "locate" features your deck has.
    	  If it has "return to zero" or "index points" (etc. etc.)
          this could be a moot point.  Almost all Beta decks have
          some or all of these features.
    
    	db

>   Re db's suggestion to always record video as well, where does one
>   conveniently get a video signal in an audio studio?
    
    Hey, that's you're problem.  ;-)
    
    More seriously, do you have a computer with video outs in the studio?
    
    Or maybe get an S-550 which has a video out.
    
    I'd suggest that you make some experiments before feeling obligated
    to provide a video signal.  See if it makes a noticeable difference.
    If it does, you could, for example, hook up a cheap antenna and
    just point it towards the strongest station in your area.
    
    	db
    

    RE: .10
    
    Any suggestions where to find Beta Hi-Fi decks in the MA area? I've
    heard people say that they could be had for as little as $300,
    especially if you find a close-out special. But I never see anything
    but VHS in the sale ads. 
    
    Rob

    
    
    Re -1
    
    Does an S50/S550 have a video out. I thought it only had RGB out.
    Is this a misconception ?
    
    Perhaps it just does'nt have a TV type signal. I.e. you plug it straigh
    in the back of your Sony...
    
    				Paul. 

The reason for recording video is to make sure there is a good video sync
signal, which the VCR uses to control the speed of the head, etc.  You will
*not* get a good NTSC sync from a computer.  The best place to get one is from
a network affiliate broadcast station.

This VCR has a built-in TV tuner does it not?  Just attach rabbit ears and pick
a station with a clean signal where you live.  The audio-ins should replace the
broadcast audio signal.

Slight aside:

Yes, the S550 provides composite video.

Chad  (who would like an S550)

    re .7, PK's query re the following :
    
    < Note 1961.6 by SALSA::MOELLER "Digital/ISO 2386 Compliance Group" >
>    Another thought.. you can BACK UP your favorite tapes by borrowing
>    or renting another VHS deck, not necessarily HiFi, and make a digital
>    copy of your music by using the VIDEO ports and cable.  Just make
>    sure the second deck is running at SP speed, too.  
    
    I stand by my statement.  The HiFi audio is not analog, it's FM.
    And you can make a perfect copy onto another VHS deck, which does
    NOT have to have HiFi, by use of the VIDEO port and cable.  It copies
    the signal digitally, without ever going back into the analog domain.
    You do not have to use the audio stereo RCA jacks to make a safety copy.
    
    Regarding auto-leveling vs. 'real' input level controls.. Len made 
    the statement that lack of input level control didn't matter, since
    he'd be controlling that from his audio mixer.  I disagree, it's
    a BIG problem here, in that the video deck's auto-leveling is going
    to continunally gain-ride the incoming signal to maintain a certain
    level.

    karl

    FM is generically analog.  Digital is generically immune to AGC,
    potentially.  What type of signal does WGBX broadcast when all I
    see are stripes of light and dark bands of bits?
    Doesn't ANYBODY have an EIA or IEEE spec for this type of modulation?
    I'll try not to talk through my hat if you do.
    Tom

    re .16 re .7 - FM is not digital.  You're correct in that going
    through the video inputs will avoid a demodulation/remodulation
    cycle, but it's still an entirely analog process.  A second VHS
    nonHiFi deck *cannot* make a perfect copy, as there is no HiFi audio
    track to write to - the audio will *not* be stored as video, it
    will go to the linear audio track which is of abominable quality.
    As db correctly points out, VHS HiFi works by "depth multiplexing"
    the stereo HiFi audio signal onto the tape, after it has been FMed
    up into the video realm.  Just because the signal is shifted up
    to video frequencies doesn't mean it's written to the tape as video
    information.  And even if you avoid a demodulation/remodulation
    cycle, there's still plenty of opportunity to build up noise after
    multiple copies.  You're just starting with a quieter source.
    
    The lack of level controls doesn't necessarily imply the existence
    of AGC.  E.g., my Tascam 38 doesn't have level controls.  VCRs don't
    include video level controls either, and if the video signal was
    heavily gain-ridden there would be no gray scale.  The levels are
    assumed to be controlled at the source.  I'd be more likely to assume
    the presence of AGC if there were no level meters on the VCR, meters
    which, incidentally, include a "peak hold" feature, something which
    argues pretty strongly for the absence of AGC.  Seems to me an awful
    lot of assuming is going on here with precious little reliance on facts.
                                          
    len.
    

VCR's (and TV's) *do* have AGC for the video.  But its response time is
sufficiently slower than the pixel rate that it does not screw up the grey
scale.  But TV signals are partly self-describing: the sync and equalization
pulses (part of the vertical blanking interval and among the things that most
computers do *not* generate) mark the lowest levels in the signal (full black),
so the AGC knows how to set things so that black is black. Everything above
that is kept linear.

The front panel "black level" (or "brightness") control lets you tweak the
mapping of received black level to displayed black level.  The "contrast"
control adjusts the gain of the linear grey portion.

I would agree that if your VCR has audio level meters that work on record that
it is likely not to contain an audio AGC.  But only that it is *likely*.  I
don't suppose the owners manual has anything to say on the matter...

But anyway, the audio portion of broadcast TV signals is heavily compressed at
the transmitter.

re  < Note 1961.18 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >
>                               -< FM is Analog >-

>    re .16 re .7 - FM is not digital.  You're correct in that going
>    through the video inputs will avoid a demodulation/remodulation
>    cycle, but it's still an entirely analog process.  A second VHS
                                          
>    len.
 
	I've been just using the audio inputs to record CDs and FM 
broadcastes via my receiver.  I'm pretty sure that I'm NOT recording 
any video signal, though my only evidence is the switch settings.  I'm 
probably missing most of the potential problems since the receiver's 
output is  ...whatever it is  and I have no control over it.
I'll dig through the manual to see what AGC I have - I've been 
assuming some, since there are no meters, ....but(t).

	Reg

{Yeah, FM:==F_requency M_odulation  ! I seem to remember THAT much:-^)}
	..and I've always assumed it to apply ONLY to analogue waves, 
.....though..  Oh, never MIND !

   re: -.2, video isn't linear.  According to the Reference Data for
    Radio Engineers book, page 30-15, "Transmitter Brightness Response:
     For monochrome transmission, radio-frequency output varies in an
    inverse logarithmic relation to the brightness of the scene."
    Tom

    Len,
    
    I'm glad you're not taking anything that's said as the infallible
    truth.  But on the question of AGC, I think you should check it
    out and be sure (don't assume anything yourself).
    
    It's my understanding that just about all VCRs have it.  The comparison
    to the Tascam 38 really isn't convincing when you consider what
    applications it's intended for and contrast it to what the VCR is
    intended for.
    
    Notice, for example, that the presence of AGC is NEVER mentioned
    as a feature - only the ability to defeat it.  I think that
    substantiates my impression that all units have it.
    
    On the issue of making perfect copies you are right (to the best of
    my knowledgte).  The audio is modulated into the video signal, and
    it may even make it out to the video out port (I don't know), but
    you must hook up the audio ports when dubbing.
    
    If the dubbing VCR is not set to "line" (for the audio) it will
    use the mono low-fi audio signal in the video port instead of
    the stereo hifi signal coming in through the audio ports.
    
    Karl, using only the video port works for PCM recordings but not
    for regular video HiFi recordings (which are absolutely not digital).
    Your deck is unique in that it does both video and PCMd and I susspect 
    that's the origin of the confusion: what you said applies to PCM
    but not regular Video HiFi.
    
    	db

    re: .13
    
    The S-50 and S-550's have BOTH RGB and composite video, although the
    RGB output is not the standard 3 port RGB thing.  It's some weird
    DIN-like plug (I don't even think it's a standard DIN plug).  In fact,
    in order to use a color monitor you HAVE to order one of two varieties
    of $25 cables from Roland (grumble).
    
    What they DON'T have is RF output (ala from your cable or your
    antenna).
    
    Thus, you can't run the S-550's video outputs into most TV's, but
    most VCR's have both composite and RF inputs and outputs.
    
    Before I got my monitor, I used to run the composite output of the
    S-550 into the VCR and then (via the VCR's RF output) into the TV.
    Then I found a monitor on sale at Lechmere's for $60 or so.  And
    besides, I've always wanted to have a monitor as part of my music
    rig because I use to think it was cool that Keith Emerson had one.  ;-)
    
    I don't think the color capabilities of the S-550 are worth spending
    ANY extra money on and I didn't like the business of having to spring
    for a Roland-hybrid cable.

    Regarding where to find Beta in the MA area.
    
    Your best bet is to find a panic sale such as someone who is selling
    their Beta stuff to buy VHS.  At the moment, only Sony is making
    new Beta decks.
    
    I'm not really sure who exactly is carrying new Beta decks but
    you could try looking into Waltham Camera and stereo, or 
    Deluxe Radio up here in Nashua, NH.
    
    Or pick up an issue of the various video rags and look through the MO
    ads.
    
    It is hard to find nowadays though.  I won't deny that.
    
    	db

Len,

Tascam and j-random HIFI VCR are not in the same league.  Level meters
(especially ones with LEDs) sell audio equipment to the masses, regardless 
of whether they tell you anything.

My guess is that *all* VHS HIFI decks have AGC and that it is a feature to 
be able to turn it off (and to have a separate gain control when you do).

Beta might be a reasonable choice if you don't plan to use the deck for
movies or other VCR type things.  Or you might look into PCM VHS units.

Alex

    Well, since the manual says nothing about AGC or AGC defeat, I'll
    have to experiment.
    
    I have to wonder though, what the point of putting AGC on a technology
    capable of 90 db S/N could possibly be.  Make all that dynamic range
    available, and then make it impossible to use.
    
    If there were an AGC and it was always operating, I'd expect my
    level meters to exhibit a pretty narrow range of levels on recordings.
    This is not the case, but you all know better than I do. 
    
    Thanks for all the opinions and unsupported assertions, though.
    
    I admit the comparison to the Tascam 38 was bogus.
    
    len.
    

>    I have to wonder though, what the point of putting AGC on a technology
>    capable of 90 db S/N could possibly be.  Make all that dynamic range
>    available, and then make it impossible to use.
    
    Well, in the context of today, it's an open question.
    
    But remember that when video HiFi came out, there wasn't much
    in the way of HiFi video sources.  Thus what could you really
    RECORD (the AGC is on record only)?  Mostly off-air and camcorder
    stuff.
    
    And remember that very few folks use it as an audio-only device.  
    In fact, the first unit that came out (Sony SL-5200) was explicitly
    not recommended for audio-only use.
    
    Makes sense for the camcorder stuff.  Unclear about off-air.
    
    Also consider that the HiFi isn't there for just music.  It's
    there for soundtrack which includes speech, background, sound efx,
    etc.
    
    Let's put it this way.  If it doesn't make sense:
    
    	1) Why do even some units have it?
    
    	2) Why is it that on just about every unit where you can
    	   defeat it, the "normal" position is to have it on?
    
    I don't know the answers to these questions though.  I'd sure
    like to know however.
    
    	db

         I came across an ad in the New York Times on Sunday for a "PCM
    digital VHS HI-FI stereo VCR". It's a Toshiba DX-900, listing for 1299
    and "on sale" for 699.95. The store is J & R Music World - 23 Park Row,
    NY, NY 10038 - (212) 732-8600. Store hours 9:00 - 6:30 Mon. - Sat.

         Seems like a good price to me -I spent 500 on a Panasonic HI-FI deck
    a few years ago (Model 1545, which has manual record level control, and
    seems to have pretty good specs, but is also out of production - probably
    replaced by another model). It also has built in dbx noise reduction.

         I was going to use my HI-FI deck to mix down to - but after seeing
    this advertised, I may go for this one, or something like it (but not
    for a while - I wonder how long this is on sale and what the "regular"
    price is).

         As far as beta goes - I've heard that this is more commonly used
    to mix down to and "record companies" usually have beta setups so that
    you can submit in this format - but I don't know about VHS. Also -
    last I heard - beta is going away - no more betas being produced.

         Anyone else heard of these decks? What do you think?

     Bill

RE: .28

Yes, it is precisely the PCM digital VHS HI-FI stereo VCR that I thought
Len might be better off having.  

Dan FOGGYR::Murphy has, I believe, been using this kind of equipment to
record the Spit Brook Singers at ZK.  He has had a lot of experience in
this area and you may wish to contact him.  I believe the PCM unit avoids
the kinds of problems discussed below. 

RE: .26 on

VHS HIFI suffers from a switching noise problem.  The gain circuits tend
to pick up this noise and in the worst cases it is reminiscent to old
movie tracks (a kind of swishing noise with speech or music that goes away 
in silent passages).  I say reminiscent because the noise is *much* more
subtle, but there.

I have found that I hear less of this noise by having the AGC control 
permanently off.  (By the way, on my Zenith (JVC made), the LED meters
only work when the AGC control is off.  I don't know what that means
about whether Len's unit does or does not have AGC.)

I don't agree, however, that just because there is 80 or 90db you don't
need AGC for the normal consumer.  After all, whether you have 40db or
80db, you're still going to suffer saturation or clipping if you peg the
needles.  And the average consumer likes to see those LEDs flicker!

Alex

    pointer - topic 1562 has a discussion of the Toshiba DX900 PCM/HiFi
    VCR unit.
    
    My apologies for my unfounded assumptions re backup VCR-VCR.. since
    the HiFi FM signal is recorded on the video portion of the tape,
    I assumed that a video copy would copy the HiFi as well.  It DOES
    work perfectly with PCM.
    
    karl