Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    > Get a compressor
    
    Actually, he's right.  I went for years without one thinking that
    they were extraneous for home studios, but I finally got one and
    it makes a rather dramatic difference in vocals or really anything
    that you mic instead of record direct.
    
    I'd recommend getting one with a builtin noise-gate as well. Noise
    gates eliminate lots of the kinds of things that immediately identify
    something as amateurish.
    
    I'd particularly recommend getting a dual channel unit.  (Ashley CL-52,
    Yamaha GC-2020, Rane ??, ADS ???).
    
    	db

    I do have a Rockman Sustainor that has a built-in compressor limiter.
    The guitar sounds fairly clean going through it. I've been running the 
    guitar into the Rockman, effects send/receive to the Midiverb II, then 
    out from the Rockman into the Tascam. Is there a big difference
    between the compressing ability of the Rockman and the compressors
    in .2 ?
    
    Haven't done any mixdowns from the Tascam to the mixing deck with
    the Midiverb II in between yet but am looking forward to it. Should
    probably also compress there, right ?
    
    Aren't compressors fairly inexpensive ? I don't get the opportunity
    to spend a few hundred on equipment that often so I have to take
    advantage of the situation while I can.
   

I'd say that compressors are fairly *ex*pensive, considering what they do.
If you are handy with electronic tools, you can build one for an order of
magnitude less money than to buy one.

    A dedicated compressor/limiter is what you would want. I doubt the
    Rockman gives enough parameter control to make it useful. 
    
    You should shop around for the compressor you like. Ive had a Yamaha
    and Audio Logic.  Both are inexpensive ($200).  Both sound inexpensive.
    Modulation waves are audible. Undesireable noise, ect.
    
    I'm now using a dual channel Ashley ($400). Sounds fantastic. I
    use it for nearly everything. Worth the extra cash.
    
    When using a compressor for mix-down purposes, obviously you'd want
    a dual channel unit to compress the stereo fields seperately. Use
    it to limit signals that exceed your chosen threshold (higher ratio
    of compression).  Instruments like bass, horns, guitar do well using
    a low ratio of compression.  Voice can be process with compression
    or limiting. Go with what sounds...
    
    Jo citizen

    You wanna run your vocals through the Rockman?
    
    I have no idea what the Rockman does in the way of compression,
    so I can't really answer your question.
    
    You can get a dual-channel compressor for as little as $200 or so
    (I think the ADS goes for about that.)  You can get something
    like the Alesis Micro series for a little bit less than that.
    
    It really depends on your priorities.
    
    Let's put it this way, do you observe anything of the following
    of your recorded vocals:
    
    	o Unevenness - syllables get lost, or you get obnoxious
    	  "puhs" on P's or anything loud and obnoxious.  
    
    	o Do vocals sound a little bit "too" present?   We're used
    	  to hearing compressed vocals these days.  You hear uncompressed
    	  vocals and it sorta sounds more like a "tape recording" than
    	  music.  It's hard to describe but it's one of the first negative
    	  things I pick up on when listening to something like a Commusic
    	  tape.
    
    	  Basically, do your vocals sound really different from what
    	  you hear on records?
    
    	o Do your seem to either dominate or be dominated by the rest of
    	  the mix?   Compressed vocals are just easier to "blend" into
    	  a mix.
    
    	o Is there lots of noise on your vocal trackin between phrases?  
    	 (Coughs, breaths,  refrigerators, etc.).
    
    These are the kinds of things that compressor limiters and noise
    gates help with.  You tell me if it's worth it... it might not
    be.
    
    	db
    
    

	If you're in the right place at the right time...

	I just picked up a dbx 119, which is a combination compressor/expander,
for $50 from an AUDIO for sale note.  It has a threshold mode that compresses
or expands only at certain levels.  While I haven't used it yet in anything
more than my home stereo, I think it will be a very helpful addition to my
recording efforts.  It be quiet, too.

	Dan

> I'd say that compressors are fairly *ex*pensive, considering what they do.
    
    I'm not saying I disagree, but a few months ago I felt the same way.
    
    Then I got one.  Now, I would say that the utility of compressors
    TENDS to be underrated.
    
    I really put mine to use for a lot of different purposes (recording
    vocals, mic'ing my guitar amp, reducing the impact of inherent noise,
    my "ducked reverb" application, and a few "live" applications.)
    
    In fact, at this point, I can forsee buying another sometime.
    
    Actually for $400 you should be able to pick up a decent compressor
    and thrown in something like an aural exciter or a sonic maximizer
    to boot.
    
    	db
    
    p.s. I agree with what Jeff says about the Ashley in comparison with
    	 the Yamaha and the AudioLogic.
    
    	 The AudioLogic is VERY noisey IMO.  The first Yamaha I tried
    	 (GC2020A) was "too noisey" and I didn't buy it.  They have
    	 since come out with 2 improvements.  The current model is
    	 the GC2020BII which is what I ended up with.
    
    	 The BII is STILL noisey but I found that I've been able to
    	 eliminate most of the noise such that you can only really
    	 hear it if the gate is shut off (permanently open).  Basically
    	 it's just INCREDIBLY sensitive to levels.
    
    	 Other good brands we should mention are Symetrix and dbx

    There's also a fairly inexpensive compressor/limiter from Alesis
    (Micro Limiter?).
    
    Compressors aren't hard to build at all; one of the nicest ones I've
    heard of uses an op-amp, a capacitor, a light bulb, and two CdS
    cells.  You can't run it with the top off but who cares :-)
              
    Do you want to build, or do you want to buy?
    
    	- Bill
    

    the Alesis is running about $125 now (stereo!)
        
    leaves lots of money for other toys, patch bays, extra digital reverbs
    etc.
    
    dbii

    A nice Exciter might be fun....
    
    Edd

    A compressor/limitor is not your average fx box.  Its manipulation
    is more subtle. For vocal recording, I will run direct from the
    compressor to tape. 100% of the signal is processed, not a mix of
    dry/processed signals. Thus the quality of the unit your using has
    more impact on your results.  A niosy compressor is usless, IMO.
    
    Other more additive type signal processing can afford a little noise,
    though I wouldnt trak with them. I do trak with compression and
    its made all the difference in the world.
    
    jo citizen

After taking the .6 test it sounds like I really need a 
compressor. Results of my taking the test will follow below. 

However, now that I know that the number one thing I should get 
is a compressor, my priority list looks like this. 
              
1. Compressor... preferably dual channel ....thanks for the 
                 recommendations ! I've never built any electronic
                 gadgetry but sure would like to give it a shot if
                 the proposed results are comparable to store-boughten.
                 
                 Maybe what I should do is go to the store, take home
                 both an Alesis and an Ashley for comparison.               
        
2. Stereo Amplifier.. Is there anything in particular to look for 
                      in a low-medium priced studio amp such as power,
                      etc.? Differences between studio amps and normal
                      stereo amps ?

3. Studio Monitors... meanwhile should I use my Kustom cabs instead of
                      my Thrusters for playback and mixdown ?

                      Any recommendations for studio monitors ? 
                      Cerwin Vega ? Altec Lansing ?

4. Mixing Board...    minimum 6 channels. Should this really be #2 on
                      my priority list even though my stereo is 
                      pathetic ? Are Radio Shack mixers ok ?

5. Aural exciter and other effects units.


 re .6;

>    You wanna run your vocals through the Rockman?

	Tried. Didn't do anything for me. 
   
>    Let's put it this way, do you observe anything of the following
>    of your recorded vocals:
    
>    	o Unevenness - syllables get lost, or you get obnoxious
    	  "puhs" on P's or anything loud and obnoxious.  
 
    Haven't noticed the Puhs when I mike directly into the Tascam but
    did notice hiss on the ssssss's this weekend.
   
>    	o Do vocals sound a little bit "too" present?   We're used
>    	  to hearing compressed vocals these days.  You hear uncompressed
>    	  vocals and it sorta sounds more like a "tape recording" than
>    	  music.  It's hard to describe but it's one of the first negative
>    	  things I pick up on when listening to something like a Commusic
>    	  tape.

    You got that right. Now when I go through the Midiverb II into the 
    Tascam I can add some dimensions but I've been told that on vocals
    it's best to add Midiverb II effects upon mixdown. Haven't tried 
    it yet.    
 
>   	  Basically, do your vocals sound really different from what
>    	  you hear on records?
 
    Yeah, (for one thing I sure wish I could sing like Robert Plant);
    I know what you're saying though....the sound I am getting now 
    is not good on vocal tracks unless I use the MidiverbII even then 
    there are only acouple of settings that I like.
   
>    	o Do your seem to either dominate or be dominated by the rest of
>    	  the mix?   Compressed vocals are just easier to "blend" into
>    	  a mix.
 
    Definitely. While recording, the meter is within limits and the 
    sound seems to be blended but on playback I had to lower the 
    instruments and increase the vocals.
   
>    	o Is there lots of noise on your vocal trackin between phrases?  
    	 (Coughs, breaths,  refrigerators, etc.).
 
    Yes I do get a lot of background noise but on my el cheapo stereo 
    system it hasn't bothered my yet.
 

    
    With $400, you're really limiting your options 8^) (sorry)
    
    My recs would be to get the dbx 163x compressor, a pair of Auratone
    2C's, and a used consumer stereo amplifier for $400. The 2C's are only
    for low volume, nearfield, critical monitoring. You can use your
    megathrusters or whatever for high volume playback, but you'll need a
    really flat monitor for critical listening.
    
    Then you can save your money or a good used mixer. Cheap mixers aren't
    worth a dime, they're so noisy.
    
    CdH
    

    < Note 1915.14 by STROKR::DEHAHN >
>    Then you can save your money or a good used mixer. Cheap mixers aren't
>    worth a dime, they're so noisy.
>    CdH

    The Yamaha KM802 (8 line inputs [incl.2 attentuated Hi-Zmic inputs],
    3 mono send/stereo FX returns, separate stereo headphone output)
    is clean.. clean enough for me to master an album with it... of
    course I use line levels only.
    
    $225 over a year ago.
    
    karl

    re: mixer #2 choice.
    
    FWIW I made a 8x2 mixer very close to the plans in note 1504.  Might
    be enough to keep you happy (it has me) while you invest otherwise.
    Cost me about $30-$40 dollars.
    Your 'test' results make me think I need a compressor myself.  Wanna buy
    a custom mixer? :-)
    -Tim
    

Craig Anderson's book of "Electronic projects for musicians" (or some title
like that) contains a simple one-channel compressor.  It doesn't use light
bulbs, but an LED optoisolator.

RE < Note 1915.17 by DFLAT::DICKSON "One box, one bowl, one spoon" >

	Good luck trying to find the optoisolator he recommends...

	Dan

    Problem with the LED optoisolator is that it responds very quickly-
    TOO quickly.  A light bulb takes milliseconds to turn on and hundreds
    of milliseconds to turn off... which is exactly the characteristic
    we want for a nice gentle compressor that doesn't heterodyne our
    signal into a whistle.
    
    Besides, it's neat to watch the light bulb flashing on and off...
    it's a very nice peak-monitoring device.
    
    	-Bill

  re.16 > Wanna buy a custom mixer ?
  
    Thanks, I'll consider it and get back to you if so.
    
    I checked out the Yamaha GC-2020B compressor last night. Looks like 
    quite the box. List price $395. Sale price $240.
    
    Saw a Yamaha KM-602 mixer. Although it was extremely portable it
    only has 6 channel inputs (probably enough) and looked cheap in 
    my opinion. List price $250. Sale price $150.
        
    Also checked out some power amps and speakers. Kenwood 125w listed
    at $348, 200w listed at $579. Cerwin Vega 10"3way handling 125w listed
    at $211 per speaker, sale price $186 or 12"3way handling 200w lists 
    for $253. So a 125w set-up would cost me $720, 200w @$1085. Hey,
    we're talking major bucks now...I got it but it's tough to justify
    it to my wife who only wanted a pair of Reeboks for XMAS!! (She
    wants to get me the speakers because I've been complaining for
    a couple years about them).
    
    I think I'm going to have to heat up the old soldering gun, maybe
    even build me a Tesla coil, yeah, that's the ticket !
     

    The anderton compressor was designed for guitars and does an excellant
    job....I still have one someplace...

    The CLM6000 optoisolator was available from Godabout electronics
    abotu a year ago, when I last checked one of thier catalogs...they're
    in Oakland California someplace....
                                                    
    dbii

We ought to be able to start with Anderson's design and modify it for a more
general purpose compressor.  A gentler (or even adjustable) attack, and two
linked channels.

My rule is that I only pay big money for stuff I can't build.  Anything over
$100 is big money.  I can't build a decent tape deck, so I buy one of those and
take what mixer comes with it.  If I need fancier mixdown (like stereo effect
returns, for example) I can build an outboard mixer for a lot less than what a
factory one costs, or even the increment in tape-deck price that would include
a fancy one.

re: .22

And I am glad that there are folks with this view, so those of us non-hardware
types can also build things that you hardware folks design :-)

Chad

    re: light bulb compressor...
    Is this plan in the notes file somewheres?  I don't suppose you'd feel
    like posting a 'cheap, quiet compressor plans' note?
    Thanks,
    Tim