Conference napalm::commusic_v1

RE < Note 1890.0 by FGVAXL::LAING "Soft-Core-Cuddler*Jim Laing*261-2194" >

	Don't you have a MIDI keyboard?  Why wouldn't you want to use that to
send out a patch change command?

	Dan

	...came out with the MidiKey or something to that effect. It's basically
	just a calculator-sized (ok, a large calculator) keypad with a battery
	inside and a MIDI-out jack. I had one as a loaner for a while when
	the keypad on my Midiverb II died. Retails about $100.

	/pjh

    Hey!!!  Bon Jovi's "Lord of the Boards", David Bryan, has a column
    in this months issue of "Keyboard", that discusses your question.
    But, I don't think he says all that much, so if you don't already
    have this issue, don't run out and buy it for this one column. He
    did mention a few tricks that might worthy of trying, though.
     
    He is SO RAD!!!! :-}
    
    BTW,IMHO he didn't deserve to be on the Dec.88 cover.
    

    From the columns I've read by David Bryan, he's espousing MIDI
    for idiots.
    
    He could (and should) take MIDI lessons from anyone in this conference.
    
    Edd

    Re .1
    
    Yes, I have 2 MIDI keyboards.  But, I want them to send patch changes
    to themselves, not other devices.. Maybe it's a matter if "low
    confusion" for me ... when I hit Patch #11 on my D-50, I want the
    D-50 to go to patch #11.  I *don't* want to have to hit #11 on the
    D-50 to get my MX-8 to go to #11 (and thus also having the D-50
    go to #11 when I really wanted ONLY the MX-8 to go to #11).
    
    Is there something I'm missing?  Is there a SIMPLE way for me to
    use a MIDI keyboard's program-change (i.e. patch select buttons)
    to control a MX-8 sometimes, and the keyboard itself other times?
    
    	-Jim

RE < Note 1890.5 by FGVAXR::LAING "Soft-Core-Cuddler*Jim Laing*261-2194" >

	I can see where you might have a problem there.  If you always had a 
one-to-one correspondence of D50 patch to MX8 patch, you could just set up your
MX8 patches to accomodate the D50 patch numbers you wanted.  But, if you had 
*MULTIPLE* configurations you wanted to access in the MX8 to go to a *SINGLE* 
patch in your D50, then the only way you could do it would be to place that 
single D50 patch in multiple patch locations (i.e. program number 10 = D50 
patch BUGFART, MX8 patch GASLIGHT, program number 20 = D50 patch BUGFART, MX8 
patch STENCHLY, etc.).  This would work fine, but you'd have to give up patch 
memory locations to accomodate (i.e. have the same patch in more than one 
location in the D50).

	Some alternate, possibilities:  

	I don't know if this will work...  What happens if you hit a patch 
change on the D50, it sends out the command to the MX8, but the MX8 sends a 
command back to the D50 to change the patch to what you want (i.e. have the
MX8 send an alternate patch change command than the one you sent it - the MX8 
can do that, can't it?).

	Does the MX8 have a foot switch jack in the back to handle program 
chaining?  If so, just set up the patches you want in sequential order and
hit the footswitch when needed.

	Dan

	Hmm, maybe what I'm hearing is that you actually have the capability
	and don't know what to set up. 

	Depending on your keyboards' MIDI implementations, you should be
	able to master/slave the program change via your MIDI setup.

	I know that, for example, my ESQ-1 allows you to filter how much
	MIDI data to interpret, for example Key, velocity, Progchange,
	sysex. 

	Maybe you can check your MIDI implementation cards or the MIDI
	instructions to see if one sends program change out, and one
	receives it. I assume the D-50 can do this, since it's a third
	or fourth generation MIDI device. The MX-8 won't directly accept
	program change if my memory serves me correctly, although I think
	I should go check my manual and make sure (I seem to recall it
	wanting that feature enabled via a SYSEX parameter first, before it
	listened for progchange, and then it was only on 1 channel, but then
	again it's a SWAG)

	However, if you use the D-50's keypad to control other boards/devices
	then the D-50 will also change. 

	I know the MX-8 has the capability to act as a controller, i.e. send
	program change OUT for each connected port when you select a particular
	patch program.  Off the top of my head, though, I can't tell you how 
	to do it since I don't use that feature. I know the manual tells how
	even if it is rather terse (I've seen better Roland manuals).

	The answer to your question "is it simple" is, well, it depends on
	what you call simple. Basically, it's not simple to get the D-50's
	keypad to act as a remote control (I think that is actually impossible
	but I don't own a D-50). It might be simple to set up the MX-8 to
	do some things but my experience with the MX-8 is that once you
	get past the difficult part (reading the manual which *is* difficult)
	it's actually pretty simple to set up the MX-8. However that might
	not be convenient. 

	Check your OMNI mode setting, too. You can keep devices from hearing
	program change by putting them in POLY mode and sending the progchange
	out on only one channel. 

	Hope this helps...?

	/pjh

    Re .6, .7
    
    My setup, roughly, is as follows: 2 keyboards acting as controllers
    (K1000 and D-50).  Both set to LOCAL OFF, so all MIDI data MUST
    go through the MX-8 (this is so I can do splits, layers among various
    devices w/these 2 keyboards.  5 SGUs: the D-50, the K1000, plus
    a TX-802, ProMIDIbass, and HR-16.  Everything goes thru the MX-8
    (K-1000, D-50 go IN to MX-8; there are 5 MIDI cables going OUT of
    the MX-8, one for each SGU.  Also, I have all patches on the D-50
    filled and in use (of course, some don't get used as much as others).
    
    My idea of "simplicity" is that I want the MX-8 to control my "MIDI
    network" to route keyboards/SGUs in various ways, but I prefer to
    do the patch-changes MYSELF by pressing patch-change buttons.  This
    might be a psychological thing ... I prefer to set up the patches
    "on the fly" so I don't feel locked in, etc.  For some tunes, I
    always use the same patch combinations; for others I choose the
    patch(es) at the moment, so my choice will differ depending on my
    mood, the crowd, etc.  (i.e. a flute solo vs. a french-horn solo
    on a mellow tune, or one horn patch over another, one lead patch
    vs. another, etc).  This is why I want the D-50's patch-change buttons
    to control only the D-50, and same for the K-1000.
    
    The simplest thing (from my perspective, anyway) is to just add
    a device to allow me to control the MX-8 quickly/easily (it *does*
    accept patch-change commands directly w/o need for SYSEXE).  
    
    If I could *quickly* tell the D-50 "send this patch to the MX-8"
    or "send this patch to the D-50" I could avoid another patch-sending
    device, but since I want to reduce keystrokes, I think a small,
    dedicated patch changer would be ideal.
    
    I guess this is my only "Gripe" about the MX-8 ... no numeric keypad!
    If it had one, I could simply use *it* to change patches on the
    MX-8.  And, no dedicated "patch up/down" buttons - you have to hit
    the "FUNCTION" button twice, then use up/down to find your patch
    (not quick if you want to go from Patch #1 to #10), then hit the
    YES button twice.  That's 4 keystrokes MINIMUM, usually more, to
    do a patch change on the MX-8!
    
    Why do I need quick/easy patch-changing?  In the middle of a tune,
    I may decide, "Hey, I'd like to layer a Tx-802 marimba over this
    D-50 patch".  I know that I've got a patch in the MX-8 that'll do
    this ... but I need to get to it FAST!
    
    Thanks for all the input so far ... there's already a few things
    for my to try/check out!
    
    	-Jim

    Jim,
    
    Some random thoughts:
    
    1) Perhaps you can use the HR-16 to do this.  I'm not sure if it
       sends patch change infor when you select a new pattern however.
       Probably not, perhaps even "hopefully not".   Worth investigating
       though.
    
    2) Have you given any thought to getting something like a used CZ-101?
       It can not only function as your patch selector, but it makes
       a dandy spare keyboard and SGU.
    
    I do all this stuff with the Ensoniq SQ-80.  It does this
    exceptionally well and allows even allows you to setup a menu
    of the sounds you "might" wanna use during the song so that you
    press the key over the patch name and bingo, you got it.
    
    It also allows me to name each song and displays 10 songs at a time.
    I just press the key over the song we feel like doing and my whole
    system is setup.  On the MX-8 I'd think you'd have to flip
    through patches to find the song you want right?
    
    There are some tunes my band does where we play along to the
    (builtin) sequencer, and the SQ-80 does the patch changes FOR ME
    on those songs WHILE I'm playing without requiring me to touch
    a thing.  I've even got it setup to "warn" me when the bridge
    is coming up and stuff like that.
    
    It even serves as my SYSEX disk filer (allows me to load up the
    stuff in my rack).
    
    I'm a simplicity freak too (explains my "rack fetish").
    
    I mean I can't imagine anything simplifying things the way that
    the SQ-80 has.  It's almost like a poly-pressure controller,
    multi-timbral SGU, sysex dumper, sequencer, configuration controller,
    tape-sync generator, etc. all in one.
    
    Oh well, I've gone off on another Ensoniq plug haven't I?  What can
    I say, I think the SQ-80 is one of those rare pieces of equipment.
    It's unusually powerful.
    
    So I guess you should just sell the D-50 (get a D-550 if you must)
    and get an SQ-80 huh?   ;-)
    
    	db

	Can someone verify absolutely whether the MX8 does or does not recieve
program change commands?  It will seriously change my mind about getting one if
it does not.

	Dan

Actually, the D50 won't respond to patch change button pushes on itself if in
LOCAL OFF mode.  So, if your D50 is in LOCAL off mode, hitting patch change on
it will send them out over MIDI but unless you are echoing 100% of the data
going out the D50 back in, ity won't affect the D50 (disclaimer: I didn't
read the whole set up reply).

CHad

    Re -.1
    
    Yes, I do have patch changes passing thru - from the D-50 to the
    MX-8, then back to the D-50.  I just leave filtering OFF for patch
    changes to the D-50, and all works "as expected".
    
    	-Jim

RE < Note 1890.12 by FGVAXX::LAING "Soft-Core-Cuddler*Jim Laing*261-2194" >

	Now, can the MX8 send alternate patch change commands based on the one
you send to it?  If so, you don't need anything other than what you have to do 
what you want effectively.  All you need to do before you're playing is to
preset the types of sounds you will want to choose from when you're playing and
have those configurations set up in the MX8.

	Does that sound right?

	Dan

    So far, 3 devices that sort-of do what I want seem to be in existence:
    
    	The AMR MIDI director (sends patch changes; START/STOP)
    	The Yamaha MPC-1 (don't know anything about it yet)
    	The Alesis MIDIkey (?)
    
    Can anyone tell me more about these?  Functions they have, cost,
    experiences using them, etc?
    
    		-Jim

    I don't suppose you'll want to run out and buy one, but the Roland
    JX-10 has the ability to send arbitrary patch change messages on
    on each of up to two channels, automatically when you select a JX-10
    patch.  The patch numbers and channels are independent of the JX-10's
    receive channel and selected patch.  You can also disable the feature
    if you choose to.
       
    len.
    

    Re .15
    
    If the D-50, TX-802 or K-1000 can do this (I'll check thru the
    manuals), I'll be "all set", most likely...at this point, I think
    I prefer a dedicated "patch changer" for the MX-8.  If only they
    made patch-changes quicker/easier to begin with on the thing!  Maybe
    in the next release ...
    
    	-Jim
    
    P.S. 

    Re: .10
    
    The MX-8 can receive patches sent via MIDI.  I have it set to
    recieve patch changes on MIDI chan 15.  When songs are loaded on
    the MC-500, they send a patch change to the MX-8 and the MX-8
    reconfigures the routings and sends patch changes to all SGU's.
    The processors on it also do channel bumping (ie. convert chan 3 to
    chan 5 on output #2 only), so I can layer SGU's without storing
    redundant sequence data on mutiple channels.
    
    RE: .0
    
    Is it easy to change MIDI channels on the D-50 or K1000?  Then you 
    could then switch back and forth on it (ie: chan 16 for MX-8 patch
    changes, chan 1 for D-50 patch changes).
                              

    Changing MIDI channels on the D-50 and K-1000 is fairly easy ...
    on the D-50 (I think I have this right): press MIDI key.  Press
    key below MIDI channel number on LCD.  Press INCREMENT or DECREMENT
    buttons, or use joystick (don't know if you can enter the # on the
    numeric keypad), then press EXIT.  So, about 3-4 keystrokes, then
    3 or 4 to change it back (less if you can send patch changes while
    on the MIDI page on the LCD.  
    
    On the K-1000, press CHANNEL UP or DOWN button to change MIDI channels
    (once per channel, i.e. once to go from 1 to 2 or 1 to 16).  Then,
    send the patch change (anywhere from 1 to 5 keystrokes, depending
    on how you do it), then hit CHANNEL UP or DOWN to get back to original
    MIDI channel.
    
    Thanks for the suggestion. . .I'll give this a try to see how it
    "feels" - how easy/quick I can achive my goal of sending patch changes
    to the MX-8.  Yes, p.11 of the MX-8 manual describes how to set
    up the MX-8 to receive patch change commands.
    
    	-Jim

    Re <Note 1890.17 by MASTER::DDREHER>
    
    I've found that my MX-8 can receive patch-change commands ... but
    it seems to have to be linked w/one of the processors (A or B).
    There are some MX-8 setups where I have A and B "tied up" doing
    specific things, and I still want a patch-change to be recognized,
    but NOT sent by a device being processed by A or B.
    
    On the MX-8, can I do something as simple as "Mx-8, receive patch
    changes on Input 6, MIDI Channel 16 at all times" and have it respond
    regardless of what A/B are doing?  OR do I need to have the processor
    "receiving" the patch-change commands always tied to the device
    sending the patch change?
    
    	-Jim

    I have my sequencer (MMT-8) send out the patch change info to the MX-8.
    You can't globally assign a specific MIDI channel to handle all of your
    patch changes on the MX-8, you have to set it up for each & every
    patch. Actually, if you create a single patch that you would consider
    a 'starter' patch with general assignments, you could copy that to all
    50 of the patches that the MX-8 will hold & then tweek the other
    parameters for each patch as needed. I will say that the documentation
    on the MX-8 is pretty poor when it comes to explaining anything that it
    can do, and you'll have to play with it until it does what you want.

    On the MMT-8, I have stored the patch changes for the MX-8 as songs , so
    I can execute them between songs (since I don't use the MMT-8 for all
    the songs that we play) rather than use the MX-8's front panel (a pain
    to tweek between songs).

							    Jens

    I've been reading this note with interest over the last few days,
    so much so that I was about to suggest a little project: I could
    probably whip up a quick prototype using a hex keypad and a 6805
    controller for the heart that would be a simple way of sending patch
    changes at will. It would operate something like this:
    You'd hit a numeric button for MIDI channel number, then a 1 to
    3 digit number for the patch you wanted and hey presto, out would
    pop the appropriate data. It then occured to me that it would probably
    make life more difficult for me..heres why;
    
    I use an 8 by 8 MIDI matrix switcher (home design and build) that
    all my S.G.U.s , kbds and computers plug into. I don't have any
    merge capability, so if I'm in record mode, my kbd is switched to
    my MAC through the unit, which then goes to the appropriate S.G.U.s.
    If I wanted to make a patch change on one of them I'd have to switch
    out the MAC, then switch in the program changer, do the patch change
    (I'd still have to look at the unit 'cos I don't know where all
    my sounds are) and then switch the kbd back in. I'd also have to
    make sure that the THRU on the MAC is sent to the right channel.
    Maybe I'm missing something here but it seems more of an inconvenience
    than a benefit, especially with SGUs that let you hold a button
    down to cycle thro all the patches until you get to the one you
    want(such as my TX802)
    
    Probably another way to do it would be to build it into a MIDI merge
    unit on the output of a kbd, but now we're getting more complicated.
    
    Am I off track here or what?
    
    Ken
     

    Re .20
    
    The MX-8 version 1.30 and higher DO allow for global setting on
    patch-change-receive paremeters...I called Digital Music Co. yesterday
    to confirm this.  You assign GLOBALLY which MIDI channel, and which
    Processor will receive the program change request.  And you can
    switch patch-change-receive ON or OFF globally, too.
    
    I looked at all my patches (on the MX-8) last night ... almost all
    use either NO processors or ONE; only a few (when I do merging)
    need both A and B processors.  So, I still might be able to use
    a "patch changer" device to get quick access to my MX-8 patches
    in a live setting.
    
    Another thought occurred to me ... my TX-802 is only receiving MIDI;
    I could use its MIDI SEND and possibly use IT as my patch changer
    ... but then I have to worry about "am I changing TX-802 patches,
    or MX-8 patches"?
    
    		-Jim

	A question about patch changing on the MX8...

	Assume the following setup:

	Master keyboard and Sequencer input to MX8.
	Out from MX8 to piano module (actually, the piano module is inside the 
		master keyboard), drum module and two synth modules.

	The Sequencer sends out patch change program to the MX8 *MID-SONG* to
divert the master controller from its internal piano module to a synth module
(by 'bumping' its xmit channel) and to change the patch selection of the synth 
module to be played by the master controller.

	First question (o.k., so I have more than one...):

	Do ALL outputs from the MX8 need to send out a program change or only
those that are actually being changed?  In other words, if module A is using
a BUGFARTS patch and I want it to continue doing so even though module B is 
switching patches, can I switch tell the MX8 NOT to send a program change out
THAT MIDI output or do I have to tell the MX8 just to send the same patch number
out that MIDI output when the MX8 recieves this new patch change command?

	When the MX8 'bumps' the channel of my keyboard, is there a possibility 
of stuck notes in the module it was previously controlling or will the MX8 also 
deal with that (by sending some kind of 'all notes off' command or something)?

	When this transition occurs is there ever any *audible* glitches in the
receiving sound modules that would be less than acceptable?

	Thanks for any help,

	Dan

>	Do ALL outputs from the MX8 need to send out a program change or only
>those that are actually being changed?  In other words, if module A is using
>a BUGFARTS patch and I want it to continue doing so even though module B is 
>switching patches, can I switch tell the MX8 NOT to send a program change out
>THAT MIDI output or do I have to tell the MX8 just to send the same patch number
>out that MIDI output when the MX8 recieves this new patch change command?
	
	Far as I can tell, a patch change "setup" command blows out all outputs.
	For this reason, I send them via the sequencer instead.


>	When the MX8 'bumps' the channel of my keyboard, is there a possibility 
>of stuck notes in the module it was previously controlling or will the MX8 also 
>deal with that (by sending some kind of 'all notes off' command or something)?
	
	yup, if you're in the middle of playing a note and it didn't get note 
	off, it'll stick. The MX-8 "all notes off" is a broadband NOTE OFF
	for each note, and it doesn't get sustain pedal (CC) hangs, so if you 
	had, for instance, your pedal down and you change channels, you may
	hang notes. You fix those by pressing the stupid pedal.


>	When this transition occurs is there ever any *audible* glitches in the
>receiving sound modules that would be less than acceptable?

	Depends on the unit. Effects are pretty grody on the whole during
	program changes. But all my sgus are pretty reasonable about PG events
	during sequence streams.

	Anybody else have these problems?

	/pjh

	It turns out that I have 4 possible controllers & since the
	structure of the A/B Processor says that you have to allocate
	the B processor to the one changing/swapping things. This turned
	out to be impossible to manage, Hence all set ups are swapped manually
	from the front panel (I never get any unrecoverable surprizes), 
	and all patch changes are sent via the controlling sequencer.

	My controllers are:

	MMT-8 Sequencer
	ESQ-1 Sequencer
	TR-505 Pattern Sequencer (I don't use the sounds, only the sequencer 
		part)
	Yamaha SHS-10 Auto-Bass Track/drums (The Processors re-assign Yamaha's
		hard coded drum notes on channel 16 to Rolands assignments
		on channel 10 & also bump channel 15 to channel 2 (my default
		for the Bass Instrument Timbre).

	There are 19 different set ups dealing with random combinations of
	Merging Different devices, Filtering out SYSEX/CLOCK/AFTERTOUCH
	and Velocity Compression. Nobody ever owns the B processor all of
	the time, Hence it can't reliably be swapped under MIDI control.
	I plan on adding another MMT-8 and 1 more MIDI controller in the
	near future. That would up it to 6 potential controllers. Of course,
	this is why I bought the MX-8 in the first place.

								Jens