| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1800.1 | | WEFXEM::COTE | Sing with the clams, knave! | Thu Dec 08 1988 20:08 | 4 |
| I don't hear lots of real instruments, I hear lots of recordings.
THAT is the sound I want to put on tape.
Edd
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| 1800.2 | money out - MIDI IN | SUBSYS::ORIN | AMIGA te amo | Thu Dec 08 1988 20:35 | 16 |
| Bill,
I agree with you completely about SGU sounds in and out of context.
I am working extensively right now developing sounds for the EPS. I have
found that the hardest instruments to get sounding good on a sampler are
horns. I'm still not satisfied with any trumpet, trombone, or sax samples,
even on the EPS. The tuba is an exception. Piano
is probably the hardest keyboard instrument to sample. In the case of the
D110, the onboard demos show how great it can sound when the instruments
are in context. By themselves they sound fair IMO. If I can get a sample
to sound really good or great by itself, I never have to worry whether it will
sound good in context with other instruments. I'm very interested in Len's
opinion on how to get more realistic drum samples? I have an RDAT and two
samplers. Any drummers ready for some serious percussion sampling? Len? Butch?
dave
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| 1800.3 | Mush Mix hides Bush Lix ? | SALSA::MOELLER | I'm NOT the NRA, and never will be ! | Thu Dec 08 1988 20:39 | 22 |
| I have had the bizarre experience of being told that a REAL flute
part on one of my taped pieces, was a synth, and later that a
sampled flute part on another of my pieces must've been real.
There are certain sounds, like kettledrums, where their real tonality
and dynamic range would blow out your speakers.. so there necessarily
is a tonal and dynamic compression required to sample some sounds
successfully. (say that fast 3X). So even good samples depart from
'reality' in many ways.
And of course there are tricks like reverb/delay/EQ that can make
certain sounds work in an arrangement, even though they suck when
heard in isolation. HOWEVER, given a choice, and the $$$, I'd rather
the sounds sound GOOD in isolation, which gives them a much BETTER
chance of sounding good in an arrangement !
And I certainly wouldn't buy a synth with inferior sounds, trusting
that I could hide it in the mix ! (not that anyone's pushing that
concept) You can't 'hide' anything in a mix ! Not from discerning
ears, that is..
karl
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| 1800.4 | | SALSA::MOELLER | I'm NOT the NRA, and never will be ! | Thu Dec 08 1988 20:46 | 15 |
| < Note 1800.2 by SUBSYS::ORIN "AMIGA te amo" >
>I have found that the hardest instruments to get sounding good on a
>sampler are horns.
AMEN ! it's the temporal envelope changes that get you, along with
the many possible attacks.
Another issue is that you can get a good horn sound, solo or ensemble,
and still have it sound like crap in an arrangement, because horn
harmonies are generally spread out more, have wider intervals, than
keys or strings, and real individual horn lines in an arrangement
use a lot of sliding from pitch to pitch.
karl
|
| 1800.5 | | DNEAST::BOTTOM_DAVID | Everyday I got the blues | Fri Dec 09 1988 11:01 | 20 |
| some of this has to do with the purpose of your recording. At one
point I was not very fussy about the recording, the mix or the
performance as it was just scratchpadding. I wanted a tape I could
hand a band and say learn this. With a 4 track and minimal midi
one can't do alot more and still maintain hi-fidelity. However,
I've changed slightly in that I finally achieved what I consider
to be a damn good sounding tape/performance/mix (CM VI) thanks to
extended recoding time, new toys and a hell of a lot of patience on
the part of myself and my wife :-), halfway through the project
I rearranged the piece to acoomodate a 3:40 "top 40" mix....just
to see what'd happen. Now months later I find the context of the
drum program just doesn't change enough to be realistic anymore...
Time often has a way of changing your mind about a sound(s) I guess.
Not being a sampler weenie or much of a midi weenie doesn't excude
one from the problem, I primarily use real instruments and still
find the need for extraordinary care in the recording process,
particularly vocals when done with a stage mike...eq the daylight
out of them just to get a fair sound...
dbii
|
| 1800.6 | I'm getting horny | SUBSYS::ORIN | AMIGA te amo | Fri Dec 09 1988 14:03 | 54 |
| re -.*
Some ideas I've been developing with regards to sampled horn realism...
Generic
o make sure that song arrangement uses each horn part within the instrument's
normal range
o vary the attacks and articulation between notes as close to a real horn
player as possible; this can be pretty difficult on a keyboard
o pitch bend can be used effectively but is difficult to control with a wheel
or lever; the timing, range, and speed of the pitch bend are critical for
realism, and eat up lots of sequencer memory with MIDI continuous controller
events; these can be "thinned" out somewhat but it is time consuming unless
using a MIDI filter
o aftertouch vibrato is very nice for expressiveness, the rate of vibrato is
critical for realism; I've found that on the EPS, an LFO rate of 34 is just
about right
o the EPS seems to have the best player controls for emulating a real horn
player's style; the 4 momentary patch select combinations, pitch and
mod wheels, plus poly-aftertouch allow very flexible (although somewhat
foreign) control of the many expressive parameters of a real horn
o all of the horns seem to sound alot better with lots of ambient reverb
added in the mix; that was part of why Harry James albums had such a "fat"
trumpet sound, not to mention what a great artist he was
Trombone
o large mouth piece; requires lots of wind; relatively slow attack; lots of
sliding between notes (naturally); not so much variety in styles; bass clef;
lower range, used for horn section "padding" more than solo; provides lower
register foundation along with bass trombone and bass and bari sax.
Trumpet
o small mouth piece; requires excellent "chops"; used extensively for solos;
wide variety of attacks and articulation...blats, mutes, drops, gliss, glide,
quick arpeggios, pitch bend,etc.; sounds "thin" in mix without lots of reverb
Sax
o seems to be the most difficult; the reed adds so much more expressiveness
and the keypad lends a whole new aspect to performing; it is pretty strange
to a primarily keyboard player to have to press down 8 or 9 keys to get one
single note; wind controllers like the WX7 (I was kidding about Yamaha) and
the DH100 seem to have potential; I won't be satisfied until I can get that
"LA Law" sax sound which may be an elusive dream...
dave
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| 1800.7 | or was it the Lonely Sampler ? | SALSA::MOELLER | I'm NOT the NRA, and never will be ! | Fri Dec 09 1988 14:55 | 16 |
| re horns..
I just completed a quick piece that features a trumpet solo. If
I get it onto a cassette in time it may be on Commusic VI. I
have lots of trumpet sounds available between the Emax and Kurzweil.
Ended up using a Kurzweil sound, just like .0 said, one that sounded
junky in isolation but worked well in the mix. It uses a delayed LFO
for vibrato, the only problem is that the LFO rate is always the
same. Slightly synthy.. but I use plenty of reverb and a stereo delay
patch on it. The Emax has an LFO 'variation' mode, (vary the LFO
speed/depth within limits) but no amount of tweaking gave it the 'this
is a human being' vibrato.
The piece's working title is "The Aerobic Bull".
karl
|
| 1800.8 | | PAULJ::HARRIMAN | Just say Yo | Fri Dec 09 1988 16:02 | 17 |
|
re: Karl
Hope you get it in soon... we're onto side II now.
re: saxen
Being an EPS owner, I have to agree with Dave Orin's summation.
I think I'm getting better at emulating a saxophone, given a decent
sax sample, lots of practice with the patch buttons and aftertouch,
and still more practice on the DH100 to figure out where to "breathe".
A piece demonstrating this will be one of my submissions on
VI. Not perfect, but....
/pjh
|
| 1800.9 | No Secrets | DRUMS::FEHSKENS | | Fri Dec 09 1988 16:03 | 34 |
| Recorded drums don't sound anything like real unamplified drums.
I agree that for most people the reference is the processed studio
sound, not the sound of a live acoustic kit. The overall balance
between instruments is different (the cymbals are much more obvious
in a live situation), and the tonal balance within a single sound
is different (toms and snares are given much more "fatness" and
low end in the studio than they genrally exhibit live). This is
why sampling drums is such a difficult problem. And, no, I don't
have any hints, suggestions or secrets. I record exclusively with
drum machines, with a little EQ and reverb to sweeten the raw drum
machine sound, and am quite happy (even as a drummer) with the sound
I get. Some of it may be my drummer's instincts showing through
in my programming. With only 4 limbs, real drummers tend to be
less "muddy" than unconstrained amateur programmers.
I agree with Karl that, even though the mix does hide some deficiencies
in realism, you shouldn't depend on it. Use the best source sounds
you can get your hands on.
Also, "muddiness" or "lack of clarity" in a mix usually means that
the sounds' frequency ranges are stepping on one another. When
arranging, I try to voice parts so they are working in distinct
octave areas, and only overlap when I am deliberately "doubling"
a part or layering voices. I also EQ things so they don't get in
one another's way. You have to use EQ sparingly, otherwise you
get an obviously hyped up unnatural sound.
Finally, the recording gear you use will have some effects. Third
generation pingpongs on a 4-track cassette deck are not going to
be as transparent as first generation tracks on an 8-track 1/2" 15ips
recorder.
len.
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