Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    The Casiotone MT-240 is the first box from Casio that I've seen
    to have both MIDI and the Casiotone name.  It's a relatively recent
    addition to the line and is selling in discount houses for around
    $150.
    
    While it won't replace your Kurzweil or even your FB-01, it has
    some neat features that I gleaned from a glance at the owner's manual
    in a toy store today (hard to read with some salesperson staring
    at you).
    
    At first glance, the MT-240 is a stock Casiotone box, 49 mid-size
    keys, 20 preset tones, rhythm accompaniment with Casio chords and
    bass, stereo speakers, etc.  However, it also has MIDI in and out as well
    as "Tone Bank" which claims 210 tones.
    
    The "Tone Bank" it turns out is just layering.  Simple math will
    show that with 20 presets, if you try all layer combinations and
    note that A layered with B is the same as B layered with A, you
    get 190 layer combinations, which added to the 20 "vanilla" presets
    gives 210 tones, some of which are, of course, totally useless.
    When unlayered, you get 10 note poly, 5 notes when layered.
    To layer, press a preset (the "base" tone) then the tone bank button
    then another preset.  Hitting additional presets exchanges the tone
    layered over the base, until you hit tone bank again to cancel.
    This is the cheapest layering keyboard I've seen yet.  The tones
    themselves are all PCM which means that some are pretty decent (the
    piano is a decent improvement over the CZ/FB/MT presets most of
    us have barfed over but lack of velocity sensitivity is still a
    drawback....whaddya want for $150???) although I guess Casio has
    a reputation to maintain and some are, well, pretty lame.  The layering
    gives you a liitle more to work with if you can stand losing 5 notes.
    
    The MIDI is primitive by today's pro standards, but not too bad when
    compared with early pro MIDI gear.  Transmit is channel 1 only, recieve
    is channels 1 to 4, and from my brief read I gather that it's actually
    all four at once giving you access to upper and lower splits, bass and
    drum sounds.  A note map is provided for the drums, so you *can* access
    them from a sequencer.  You can also drive external sequencers with the
    onboard clock, but it was not immediately apparent if you can clock the
    240 from an external device.  No velocity, transmit level is fixed at
    64.  Accepts program change 0-29, i.e. the twenty presets plus ????
    Also sends program change.  Sustain information is accepted but not
    sent.  Didn't catch whether pitch or mod were accepted. 
    
    Anyway it sounds like a cheap peripheral for computer hackers who
    want to check out MIDI at a minimum cost and for cheapskates like
    me who could use a couple of chintzy PCM voices plus a funky drum
    kit and don't want to blow the cash on an MT-32.  Wait for 'em to
    show up in the want ads for $80.
    

    I'm interested in consumer MIDI things too. For a long time, I thought
    there was a reason why all these other notes were so "technical",
    then I realized all these other noters were pro/semi-pro. Different
    slant on things.  That's why I crawled through the MAC notesfile,
    thinking it would answer my questions (it hasn't so far). 
    
    Is there another notes file for this sort of thing?? This notesfile
    seems pretty eclectic.
    
    Don't forget: from "pro" things come future "consumer" things. That's
    what keeps me reading this file. Besides, where else can one get
    such great entertainment?!!?!     :-)
    
    Bruce Evans, Santa Clara

    
    re: consumer items
    
      I don't think that being a pro/semi pro should have much slant
    on whether or not you get off (or on) consumer electronics. I have
    an SK-1 and a DH-100. The best thing about 'em is that I can take
    them up to my camp on weekends and sit out on the lawn and play
    them - they run on batteries which the rest of my equipment isn't
    really set up for. Given that I am not really a wind player anymore,
    I couldn't justify the couple grand for an EWI or whatever, but
    the DH-100 works fine, for me. 
    
      I just received the latest Casio product catalog. Definitely the
    fall lineup has some new toys that look like they fall between semipro
    and consumer.
    
      For instance, they have a new keyboard controller (<$300) that
    appears to have the same functionality as the LINC. (>$700). Likewise,
    two new guitar controllers (X767,777? I'll check the model numbers)
    which retail around $400-$500, and appear to have more features
    than the previous generation. Also an entirely new line of MIDIfied
    mid-range keyboards (no more CZ line). More on this later, when
    I pry the catalog away from my partner.
    
    /pjh

    
    I saw a blurb in STart magazine that Yamaha and Atari will be doing
    a co-promotion this Christmas, with one of the new MIDIed Yammie
    PortaSound boards bundled with a 520ST and some sequencing SW. 
    
    I think the blurb said Lechmere's would have it on the east coast.
    
    

Casio MIDI products:

   MT-240 ($199.50) Mid size keyboard 49 key, 20 tones, all PCM, 
                    2-level layering, 10-note poly, stereo, real 
                    time memory (i.e., melody), 20 rhythm 

   MT-520 ($259.50) Same as MT-240 plus 8 preset sound effects. 

   MT-600 ($299.50) Mid size keyboard, 49 keys, 40 SD sounds, 20 PCM
                    rhythms, chord/pattern memory, 8 note poly, stereo, 
                    pitch bender, pitch control.

   HD-700 ($399.50) Same as MT-600 plus RAM card compatible, synthesizer 
                    function, chorus effect, key transpose.
        (Currently on sale through C.O.M.B for $199)

   CT-460 ($329.00) Full size keyboard.  49 keys.  30 PCM tones, 20 PCM 
                    rhythms, 8 sound effect patterns. 2-level layering.  
                    Real time memory. Registration (4 position). Real time
                    memory. 10-note poly. Stereo. Auto harmonize.  Stereo

   CT-640 ($399.00) Same as CT-460 except 61 keys, and no sound effect
                    patterns.

   CT-630 ($499.00) [discontinued but still available].  Has 3 split
                    points. 20 SD tones lower, 40 SD tones upper. 20 PCM
                    rhythms.  8-note poly. Auto harmonize, Pitch control 
                    Stereo.  Chord memory/operation memory.

   CPS-101 ($449.00) Full size keyboard, 61 keys, Initial touch response.
                     10 (SD?) tones.  8-note poly. Chorus effect. Real
                     time memory. Pitch control. Stereo. Metronome. 

   DH-100  ($175.50) Sax. 6 tones. Portamento effect. Key transpose. Built
                     in speaker.  

   DG-20   ($449.00) Digital guitar.  20 present tones, 12 PCM rhythms. 
                     Transpose.  Mute. Sustain/Reverb effects. 20-fret
                     neck. Pitch control. Built in speaker.  4-built-in
                     drum solo pads.  MIDI out.

Prices are list.

Alex
 

       I am interested on information on the Yamaha PSR 36. Is this
    a good machine to start my Daughter into midi from her present
    CT 350. I have a price of 369.00 on this machine. 
    
    Thanks Dennis

    
    This is from USENET.  The Casio MT-540 is (supposedly) identical to
    the MT-240 except that it has additional "sound effects" tones in
    addition to the 210-preset tone bank.
    
Newsgroups: rec.music.synth,rec.music.makers
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!mailrus!cornell!uw-beaver!tektronix!orca!stank
Subject: Re: Yamaha PSS-140 (does it have MIDI?)
Posted: 26 Oct 88 21:55:42 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville, OR
Xref: decwrl rec.music.synth:5654 rec.music.makers:2914
 
In article <18.UUL1.2#238@kumu.UUCP> todd@kumu.UUCP (Todd Ogasawara) writes:
>I've been wanting a little synth to stick in my office to
>noodle around on during lunch and maybe experiment a bit
>with my office Mac II.  I just saw an advertisement for the
>$99.95 Yamaha PSS-140 in Time Magazine (of all places).  It
>has a little "toy" keyboard (3 octaves, small sized keys)
>like the old Casio-101.  The ad claims it has a lot of
>voices and a drum pad.
>
>My question is: Does it have a MIDI port?
 
I don't know much about the Yamaha PSS-140 but consider looking into
the the Casio line.  I think they've got Yamaha beat, hands down, on
the low end consumer keyboards.  If you don't mind the "toy" keys
they're great!  Their low end boxes use the same phase-distortion
synthesis that their top models do, they get some great sounds.  I've
messed around with several of the low end models in the local
department stores and overall I think Casio has the best sounds.  I
own two cheapo Casio's, a CZ-230s and a CT-540.  The CZ-230s was
pretty hot stuff two years ago but the newer models are a lot cheaper.
(I got the CT-540 for $189 a month ago, I paid $380 for the CZ-230s
two years ago.)  One thing the CZ-230s has is a pitch-bend wheel, I
haven't seen one on any other low end box.  The CT-540 has a lot
better MIDI implementation than the CZ-230s, you can have up to four
MIDI channels (three if you use external MIDI clock), but the channels
are hard-wired to MIDI channels 1-4. (On the CZ-230s you can change
the base channel.)  On the CT-540 the number of notes of polyphony
varies with each channel the assignments are as follows:
 
	channel 1 - 6 notes
	channel 2 - 4 notes
	channel 3 - 2 notes
	channel 4 - 4 notes 
 
Having only 2 notes available on channel 3 may seem limited, but it's
just fine for the kind of drum tracks that I do.  (one of the
pre-defined patches is called percussion, it has various assorted
percussion instruments asssigned one per key.)
 
The CT-540 has 20 pre-set non-programable timbres (patches) available
from the push buttons and another 10 available from MIDI only.
Overall, the CZ-230s has a larger selection (99 total) but there are
some lame ones in there.  (For comparison look at the new Yamaha low
end synth that Sears is starting to carry, the one with the drum pads
out in front of the keyboard, it has 99 pre-set patches, all of which
are lame.  It does has programmable patches, so hopefully you could
program your own sounds that are better.) My favorite sound, of all
the low end synths, is the piano on the CT-540. You can actually hear
the hammer hitting the strings in the upper octave!  The lower octave
sounds realistic too, but the envelope is a bit too short.  I still
like the string synth sounds that I can get out of my old CZ-230s,
none of the new cheapo synths come close, yet. The main reason I
bought the CT-540 was for its piano sound and for the fact that you
can play the percussion timbre from MIDI.  The CZ-230s has great drum
sounds (they used PCM technology) but you can't play them from MIDI.
 
The CT-540 drum sounds are a little on the lame side but they have
some interesting things like the ever popular gated (sp?) snare and
various blocks, cymbals and gongs.  They lack proper closed and open
high hats, though.  Also, they cymbols are just a bit too "splashy", I
think they over-did the stereo panning on them just a bit.  (I guess I
forgot to mention that the CT-540 is a stereo box, the CZ-230s is
mono.)  Also included on the CT-540 are two "sound effects" timbres,
the first has galloping horses, six gun shots, forest streams and
such, the second has city traffic, car horns, ocean surf and other
stuff.  I don't use these much but I suppose one could use the car
horns to do a pretty good Jon Hammer/Jeff Beck "Freeway Jam", 'cept
you can't pitch bend.
 
Well that's all I have to say about cheapo synths from Casio.  If
anyone out there has had any experience with the Casio CZ-230s I'd
like to hear from you.  I'm currently trying to figure out what system
exclusive message is used to program timbres 96-99, the manual is real
vague on this.
 
							Stank
 
-- 
US Mail: Stan Kalinowski, Tektronix, Inc.	
         Information Display Group, Graphics Workstations Division
         PO Box 1000, MS 61-028, Wilsonville OR 97070   Phone:(503)-685-2458
uucp:    {ucbvax,decvax,allegra,uw-beaver}!tektronix!orca!stank

RE: .7 

See for sale note 12.58

I was glad to see the notes on the low end Casio MIDI devices, but yesterday
I saw an ad for a Yamaha low end MIDI keyboard. I think the model was
a PSS-480, and the cost was about $140. Does anyone have anymore info on
this unit, and how it compares to the Casios?

    The latest DAK catalog has a Casio Model MT-640 listed for $299.00
    
    It sounds similar to the MT-600 but has a built in memory. Does
    anyone know if this would be a good instrument to experiment with?
    
    Does it have outputs that could feed a stereo system?
    
    
    					Thanks for the info.
    
    
    						Jack

    
    Re: .8
    
    After a half hour demo with an MT-240, I'd like to add the following:
    
    1.  The piano is indeed fantastic. It is *not* touch sensitive. 
    However, it does sound like a real piano.  Quite impressive for
    under $200.
    
    2.  Most of the other patches are, as usual, poor.  Good pipe organ,
    harpsichord, accordion, "synth-reed", and lousy vocal chorus (weird
    attack), brass, strings and jazz organ.  The "stereo" effect can
    be bothersome as it uses audible panning.....ugh.  For external
    amplification, I'd stick with mono.
    
    3.  The drum sounds (independent of the rhythm box) appear on the
    white keys and are called up as a patch.  Provided are kick, snare,
    *gated* snare, ride and crash cymbals, *choked* crashes, congas,
    timbales, agogo bell, etc.  Not velocity sensitive.  As noted, the
    crashes are a bit splashy but overall not bad sounding.  Unlike
    the rhythm section (which appears to use the same sounds) using
    the drum sounds steals from the 12 notes total polyphony.

    4.  The bass patch is a split.  Bottom 2 octaves are "wood bass",
    like an upright, sort of.  Top 2 octaves are a poor electric "slap"
    bass patch, transposed down two octaves.
    
    5.  No tone mixing with MIDI operation (sigh).
    
    6.  The unit has a fixed multi-timbral setup.  Channel one is six
    note poly, channel two is four note poly, channel three is two note
    poly.  Notice that this gives two more notes than you can get from
    the keyboard!!!  Omni-off/poly mode only.  Transmit appears to be
    fixed on channel one.
    
    7.  Channel 4 accepts patch change messages *only*.  It is *not* four
    note poly as .8 stated.  It is used to drive the rhythm box.  Patch
    change 0-19 selects the rhythm.  When using the rhythm section with
    an external sequencer, the MT-240 *must* be the master clock source.
    
    8.  Patch change 0-19 on channels 1,2 or 3 select a patch from the
    20 presets.  Patch change 20-29 will select 10 additional presets
    not acessible from the front panel.  These include a second set
    of brass and string patches, fantasy organ, etc.  I was unable to
    audition these. The unit can *transmit* only patch changes 0-19.
    
    9.  The unit will respond to 61 notes (i.e. one octave above its
    own keyboard), sustain, patch changes.  

RE: .*  Here are some delayed responses.  (I must have hit next unseen and
missed these at some point.)

RE: .7

The Yamaha PSR36 is one of the nicer consumer keyboards out at this point. 
It has 61 keys, not touch sensitive.  Its major feature is a set of
sliders (each with something like 5 positions) that perform modest 
synthesizer functions (you can alter some of the envelope characteristics, 
brilliance, vibrato, etc).  The FM sounds are not bad as a whole.  They
have quite a nice selection of bass and obbligato and drum patterns.  Some 
percussion programming is possible (although I have not had a chance to
check it  out). 

Check the price out carefully.  Service Merchandise regularly has it on
sale for $279.  Treisman's (Nashua) has similar prices, I believe. 

RE: .11

I see no Casio listing for MT-640.  The CT-640 is normally sold by Service
Merchandise for $299 and goes on sale for $279.   The CT-640 does have
outputs that could feed a stereo system.  

RE: .12

It appears that Casio uses the same "all PCM" chip in its entire new line
of home keyboards.  Thus the stereo keyboards: MT-240, MT-540, CT-360,
CT-607, CT-460, and CT-640 should sound the same and may respond the same
to MIDI.  (The 460 and 540 also have special sound effects.) Thus,
although your unit may only have 49 keys, it will respond to 61 notes. 
Also the chip has 30 patches, so your keyboard will indeed respond to all
30 even if the front panel only has 20 push buttons. 


General comments:

I generally agree with the assessment in .12.  In an attempt to have
exciting patches, Casio sometimes builds in a heavy chorus or preset
modulation or encodes PCM presets from sources with high attack or release
envelope values.  The result is that an instrument may be quite good
(piano, pipe organ, harpsichord) or quite bothersome.  You keep looking
for some control to adjust the modulation!  On the other hand, Yamaha is
moving toward "consumer understandable" synth parameters, allowing the
user to add vibrato, select among a small set of waveforms and do some
envelope modification.  Casio is banking on the fact that what sound good
in the store at quick audition will sell best.  

If piano sound is critical to you, Casio might be a good choice.  If you
need some "pure" tones that are not terribly exciting but also not very
annoying, look into something like the Yamaha PSR-36.

Velocity sensitivity: 
-------------------- 
Velocity or initial touch sensitivity is becoming available at lower and
lower prices.  In my opinion, anyone trying to learn piano should look 
closely at these units.  It's one thing to argue about whether expensive
weighted electronic keyboards can precisely mimic the feel of a good
piano.  It's another thing to try to learn piano without having the
opportunity to understand and feel what it's like to play a piece
emphasizing the melody while playing the harmony.  Without velocity
sensitivity you simply can't learn that aspect of piano (which I believe 
is critically important).  So if the keyboard is meant to be a replacement 
of a piano, be careful.  If it's meant as an organ (or a toy) don't worry.

Alex

	OK all you "pros" out there, I'm a non-musical type in search of a
consumer keyboard and am dazzled by the amount of model numbers. I want to buy
one for my wife for X-mas. She can play several instruments and is primarily
interested in piano sound quality. She seems to think the Casio has better piano
sound than the Yamaha. Is this true or is there "electronic adjustments" that
you can make. Also this velocity sensitivity sounds interesting; how would a
novice determine this in a store? We want one with full size keys, but is 49
acceptable or do you need 61?
	I'm providing a list of the model's I've found so far, maybe you folks
can pick out a good one. It seems as the numbers get higher the price also goes
up. Does this indicate quality or just more "bells and whistles"? Are there any
features that are "must have"? Can anyone tell me what the model # prefix
letters indicate ie: Casio's CA/CT/MT and Yamaha's PSR/PSS? Anyone have any
"800" numbers for Casio or Yamaha where I could call and get product brochures?

Here's the list:

CASIO	CT-670	$349
	CT-655	$319
	CT-615	$159
	CT-470	$279
	CT-390	$149
	CT-370	$119

	CA-401	$169
	CA-100	$100

	MT-540	$129
	MT-260	$99
	MT-240	$99

YAMAHA	PSR-27	$179
	PSR-18	$168
	PSR-6	$129
	PSR-2	$96

KAWAI	FS610	$159



Thanks,
Craig

	To determine if a synth is velocity-sensitive, hit the key faster and
	slower.  If the sound if louder or softer with different speeds, it is
	velocity sensitive.
	Tom

    The people in this conference won't know much about the class of
    keyboards you've described; COMMUSICians generally spend about one
    order of magnitude more bucks on their toys.
    
    I'm a happy owner of a Yamaha YPR-9, which is touch-sensitive (this is
    vital) and has a decent piano sound. The YPR also has MIDI out, which
    means that you could buy a piano (or other) module and drive it from
    the YPR keyboard (a tricky key combination turns off the YPR's sounds).
    This machine was top-rated by Consumers Reports a few years back, on
    the basis of sound quality. It's still available in stores: I've seen
    prices varying between $400 and $500 during the last six months. I got
    mine through the want-ads for $350, two years ago.
    
    In general:
       - get touch sensitivity (vital)
       - MIDI out gives lots of potential
       - listen to it
    
    FWIW - Hoyt

    Re: .14, .16
    
    The Yamaha YPR-9 is discontinued, although some dealers may still have
    them.  I plead ignorance to what the followup model is, but I've seen 
    and heard one and the piano sound is much better.  The YPR is basically
    a piano, it doesn't have the built-in rhythm section and 120-gazillion
    sounds.  It *does* have a few extra sounds, things like an organ,
    harpsichord, stuff like that.  There was also a (less expensive) YPR-7
    made.
    
    The prefixes on Casios doesn't seem to mean too much; originally "CT"
    was for Casiotone.  The "PS" in the Yamaha names stands for Portasound.
    Exclusive of the YPR series, the Casios do have a better piano sound,
    to my ear anyway.
    
    49 keys will seem cramped to someone familiar with a piano.  I've
    noticed that 61 key models seem to be more common, with recent models
    from Casio, Kawai and Yamaha.
    
    Velocity keys will probably kick you up over $300, I have yet to see a
    board under $300 with it.  Most of the machines you noted simply
    increase the "gee-whiz" features as price goes up, so if a surrogate
    piano is the main thing, remember you have to *pay* for all the goodies
    even if you don't use them.
    
    There is a note with manufacturer's addresses and phone numbers in the
    beginning of this cobnference, note 6, maybe?
    
    
    							Brian

    Daddy's has three YPR-9's, one in the Nasha store and two in the
    warehouse, for $399 new. There *is* a new Yamaha, I forgot, and it *is*
    a nicer piano sound. The YPR is decent, though, especially the
    next-to-lowest G. And the YPR *vibes* is superb!
    
    - Hoyt

    
    Three brand new Roland electric pianos out.
    
    EP-3: 61 keys, no velocity
    
    EP-5: 61 keys, velocity, "song recorder" (simple sequencer)
    
    EP-7: 76 weighted keys, 4-song "recorder", digital chorus and reverb.
    
    All three use sampled sounds with "time varying filters".  All have
    stereo headphone outs (2!!, for 4-hands or teaching applications) and
    stereo line outs.  EP-3 speaker setup is mono, though, others are
    stereo. A music stand and damper pedal are included.  Power is by a
    wall bug.
    
    There are five sounds, piano, electric piano, vibes, (pipe) organ and
    string section.  The e-piano and vibes were so-so, the strings *very*
    good. Oh yeah, the piano is nice, too!!  I demoed the -3 (others
    weren't in yet) and missed the velocity response, otherwise, pretty
    nice.  24 voice polyphony.
    
    MIDI functions allow setting transmit and recieve channels independent,
    omni on/off, local on/off and patch change enable/disable.   MIDIphiles
    will be interested that patch changes are on boundaries of 4, that is,
    piano is on patches 1-4, e-piano on 5-8, etc.  Also, going beyond patch
    20 (for the strings) gets you into a range of layered patches, not
    accessible from the front panel (piano + strings, organ + vibes, etc.). 
    No splits. Like most home pianos, this one uses weird button pushes for
    the MIDI functions, you will need the manual.  Good (maybe bad?) news
    is that the main manual is only 3 pages long and the MIDI supplement
    another 3.  
    
    Prices?
    
    List is $400 for the -3, $600 for the -5, forget what the -7 was
    supposed to be.  Stands are optional extras.  
    
    
    							Brian

    299 pounds (UK)  Yamaha PSS 790.
    
    This has 100 voices (sounds), 100 accompaniaments (incl. rhythms), 8
    track sequencer, vector sysnthesis and MIDI in, out & thru.
    
    the voices sound great for a consumer k/b.  Apparently they are
    produced by Yamaha's AWM method.  Using the Vector synthesis you can
    assign any voice to any of 4 positions (UP, DOWN, LEFT, RIGHT).  Using
    a joystick you can switch through the sounds as you play.  If you leave
    it in the middle you get all 4 sounds playing at once, or you can blend
    any 2 sounds together at any ratio.  It's dead good fun assigning
    Choir, Strings, etc, then playing while swiveling the joystick!
    
    Though the sequncer is advertised as 8 track is is really only 5 track. 
    on the 6th track you can record automatic accompaniament changes, on
    the other track you can program rhythm.  You have about 60 drum sounds
    (nice sounds too) that you can assign to the 8 drum pads at the front. 
    From there you can build you rhythm as you wish.  Can't remember what
    the 8th track is for - I have a feeling it is for MIDI data or
    something like that.
    
    With the rhythm track or any of the melody tracks you can actually
    record part, then add later.
    
    It's also something like 28 note polyphonic, but it does have mini
    keys, and of course they are'nt touch sensitive.
    
    It's amazing what they can do nowadays!
    
    
    matty

    re .19 - Roland Sampled Pianos
    
    This note refers to the EP-3, EP-5 and EP-7.  Has anyone got anymore
    information on the EP-7?  Is the EP-7e the same thing, or an update?
    
    Martin Robinson @BSO