Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    The 'feature' of the RX120 is all of the preset drum patterns it
    has.  The idea is that the composer need no longer be troubled with
    coming up with new drum patterns since every drum pattern he could
    ever want will be found in the box.  It does respond to MIDI, of
    course, just in case some tasteless individual decides to go against
    accepted creative standards.
    
    Steve_who_has_yet_to_use_a_preset_drum_pattern_in_any_piece

    I recently "lost a sale" of my drum machine on the basis of some other
    machine having "builtin patterns".
    
    Folks looking for drum machines should be aware that in some cases
    (like the machine I was selling) this may be a non-issue.
    
    Many drum machines without "builtin" (i.e. "in ROM") patterns come
    from the factory with a wide variety of patterns programmed into
    the RAM memory.
    
    Thus you "start out" with essentially the same thing, a wide variety
    of general patterns immediately available.
    
    The manual for the machine I was selling comes with all the 
    "pseudo-builtin" patterns documented in a tablature like form.
    
    I have been thinking about tranferring these to my HR-16, but I suppose
    that in some way, my attitude about doing this is similar to Bill
    Yerazunis's attitude about using factory or 3-party patches.  I sorta
    would prefer to entirely "roll my own" as that is not really hard to
    do.  The main value of those preprogrammed patches (particularly
    the documentation) is to understand what a "basic bossa beat" is
    and how to construct it, and then make variations from that.
    
    	db

    Hmmm...  is there a tradeoff between built-in patterns and sequencer
    capabilities?  That is, does the RX120 have a more primitive sequence
    editor than, say, the RX17?  Or, are lots of built-in patterns a good
    thing because then one only needs to use the onboard sequencer to
    string them together?
    
     KC
    

    I think the RX120 allows you to string the presets together, like
    most any other drum machine.  But, I don't think it allows you to
    work out new patterns on the machine.  The only thing it lets you
    do to the presets is add accents at particular places.  My guess
    is that the accents are global.  If you have a good external sequencer,
    this will probably not be a limitation.  But, for me it would becuase
    I prefer to work out patterns using the drum machine's sequencer,
    then dump these via MIDI to a regular sequencer and add velocity
    info, move times around, and add a few extra hits.  These are sometimes
    things that the built-in sequencers of even some of the more expensive
    drum machines can't do.  So, yes, I think there is a definite tradeoff
    between having gobs more presets and being able to create your own
    patterns.  I don't know about the RX17 sequencer, but I would imagine
    it is much more flexible and on the order of a standard drum machine's
    sequencer, i.e.; taylored to creating percussion sequences.
    
    Steve

RE: .0

    Not knowing anything about your ability to program, how you intend to
    use the machine, or your shoe size ... 

    If you're interested in sound, spend the extra $50 and get an HR-16. A
    buddy of mine just picked one up at West LA music for $350 cash &
    carry.  The sounds are very good (next best thing to a real kit, IMO)
    and in spite of the bad press, Alesis is making a great effort to make
    it right with those who have purchased stuff that doesn't work. 

    If you spend $250-$300 for a machine now, you'll be kicking yourself in
    the butt for not having spent the extra bucks up front.  For what it's
    worth ... 

-b

    Being a drummer, those preset rhythm patterns are not terribly valuable
    to me, as I can usually program something up faster than I can search
    for it.  Besides, if I really wanted them, I could get the MC-500
    rhythm disk that has some 800 (yep, *800*) rhythm patterns on it.
    
    Now, what I need, being musically illiterate (as are all drummers),
    is a set of preset lead riffs and chord progressions, that would
    save me the effort of learning anything about the melodic and harmonic
    side of this racket.
    
    len (who still can't understand why it's ok to be ignorant about
    rhythm).
    

    You program me the patterns, I'll program you the leads and chord
    fills. 

    You want one chord per pattern, or what?

-b

    I can probably get you a bunch of sequenced lead (solo) and Bass
    instrument patterns. You'd have to figure out how to get them to
    key off of the chord pattern. I borrowed a KORG synth, with an
    Arpegiator on it & set up some banks of Bass Pattern & set them
    aside for use on the Sequencer. All I need to do is break up the
    verse/chorus based on the patterns, then merge it all together into
    the full verse after moving the notes in the parts to the correct
    pitch (up or down some notes) - Handy for Country Western where there
    is a major amount of root-5th (I-V) bass patterns & repeating types
    of patterns..

    Back to the drum machine. My gripe with the HR-16 was the sequencer
    in it. It is very much like that of the MMT-8, which is not exactly the
    most flexable for selecting random patterns & tying them together in
    a live performance. I found that the sequencer in the TR-xxx series
    of Roland drum machines to be better at it. I own both an MMT-8 and
    an TR-505, allowing me to have both the live performance aspects
    capability, and any bizzare/flowing/unique patterns driven by the
    MMT-8 sequencer. An MT-32 is thrown in there also, providing my
    drum sounds (mixed with the dry TR-505 sounds).

    I'm hoping to automate more of what is sequenced in the future (and
    allow for quicker building of cover/original tunes based on established
    patterns - The ones that I have been building a library of) for many
    instruments. One day, the automated stuff may be unrecognisable as
    such, for now it isn't always so easy to hide as sequenced.

						Jens 

    Hey, isn't my arpeggiator kind of like a preset note pattern, ...
    well, sort of?  Besides, len, you really don't need to *buy* preset
    chords and patterns when you can trot down to the local department
    store and hear all kinds of neato patterns by the cheap keyboards
    where all the teenage kids hangout.  Why, some keyboards even have
    ROMs and LEDs that help someone with the necessary drumming/pointing
    skills to put their index (or whatever) finger on the appropriate keys.
    Yessiree, there are even boxes that provide magic, genie chord
    progressions that, remarkably, fit *every song ever written* in
    4/4 time - I know, 'cause my unbelieving ears have actually heard
    such an accomplishment.  Why, the magic chords even keep on playing
    after the song's over, just in case there is somebody out there
    that wants an encore.  It is truly amazing ...
    
    Steve

    Steve's right Len.
    
    You oughta trade in some of that Roland equipment for some Lowrey
    stuff.  ;-)
    
    	db

    Yeah, go visit me mum and dad.
    
    They recently blew $10K on an organ that comes with almost every
    feature imaginable, auto-chord, auto-rhythm, mondo-drums, flashing
    lights, hot and cold running water, built in FX, lotsa LEDS (no
    BIMs though), an oiled teak console, and a padded seat.
    
    What's it missing????
    
    
    
                         A MIDI PORT!!!
    
    I can't believe they can put MIDI in a $160 plastic sax and they
    left it out of the Organ That Ate East Orlando....
    
    Edd

    It's alright Brad, now what I need is a word processor that's got
    some "preset" phrases built into it so I can write this enterprise
    management architecture strategy paper for a forthcoming IFIP
    conference.  Maybe I could write the paper as a sequence of phrase
    numbers...
    
    You know, like the "numbered joke" joke.
    
    len.
    

    re: .8 Huh that's interesting, I find the HR-16 to be considerably
    easier than and more flexable than my old TR-707 with the exception
    of not being able to step backwards, otherwise I'd say it beats
    the roland hands down.
    
    differnt strokes
    
    dbII

    I understand what you mean about flexability. The sequencer in the HR
    allows a greater deal of granularity in setting up patterns, where (as
    has been stated before) the TR-xxx series is pre-quantized for you 
    by virtue of design. My experiance, when it comes to selecting random
    patterns (I have 32 on mt TR-505 that are for R&R purposes - fills,
    lots of cymbols, mostly high-hat additions and the like) for when
    I'm playing live, is that the ability to bounce from one pattern to the
    next (lets say we decide to make the current song that we are playing
    into a succession of songs, that we normally don't play together) is
    easier in real time. I had tried to do this using my MMT-8, and while I
    could queue things up, I found that the ability to block patterns
    together, and general adjustments were easier to do in between chords/
    notes on my guitar. I also found that the MMT-8's sequencer (similar to
    that of the HR) use of the grey buttons caused un-reliable things to
    occur (I have a lot of keybounce problems), and in general caused me
    problems. The TR-505 has no keybounce problems that I've been able to
    detect. If the song requires something other than my 32 R&R patterns,
    or 16 'other' patterns, I use the MMT-8's sequencer, because it is
    substantially more flexable, and allows you to sound more like a
    'real' drummer. So, I do use both capabilities, and each have thier
    place, depending on what I am trying to do.

							Jens

    > keybounce...
    
      Yeah, me too. Sux, donut?
    
    Edd

    I thought KEYBOARD's review said they liked the buttons.  Of course,
    lately the KEYBOARD reviews have liked everything ...
    
    Steve

    I VASTLY prefer the buttons on my RX...
    
    Edd

    Well I like the buttons. They have a lovely squidgy feel. Better
    not go into that. Anyaway, it's the switches underneath em that
    are rubbish. That STOP/CONTINUE switch is a real *a**a*d when it
    bounces, as are all the rest. 
    
    Richard.
    

    
    In Boston:
    
    LaSalle closing out RX17s at $199.
    
    

    It's been almost 2 years since -1 was entered.  What is new in this
    price range that would be recommended?
    
    Mike

    Sam Ash latest flyer was selling TR505s for somewhere between $175 and
    $225 (I think).
    
    I know a guy who listened to a Boss Dr. Rhythm (?) - said it sounded
    great.  Other than that, I don't know.
    
+b

    With careful shopping, you could get a used HR-16 for $300 or less.
    
    Rodney

    The TR505 is listed at $179.95 in Sam Ash's catalog.
    
    Mike

    Re: TR505
    
    Listen to Rodney, the 505 is a pretty obsolete machine.  The sounds are
    not as good as what more recent machines can do, but the MIDI
    implementation is much better than the DR-550.  The HR-16 blows it
    away.
    
    They can be had used for $100-150.  I'm amazed that Roland is still
    cranking these out.
    
    					Brian

    I payed $180 for a used TR505 about 1.5 years ago...  It also had a
    'flaky' volume control, as it put full volume on one of the channels
    at low volume settings...
    
    I only use the TR505 for sounds, and for testing my home-grown real
    time MIDI recording software...
    
    _John_
    

    
    
    re .25
    
      I don't think Roland is "still cranking out" the TR505's, since
    Sam Ash was blowing them out for approx. $150 a couple of months
    ago. The TR707's and TR727's(latino) were blowing out at $179 two
    weeks later. When items like these are being sold so cheaply
    (relatively speaking) and are so heavily advertised, *I* usually
    assume they are no longer in production.
    
    
    
    RichC
    

    Re:.25,.27
    
    Well, the August issue of EM had a drum machine survey and listed the
    505 as still available, believe it or not.
    
    							Brian
    
    

    The 505 is very popular among amateur rap performers because it's
    cheap.  However, almost every major studio cranking out rap records
    uses the TR-808 (I think that's it) which is sorta a de facto standard
    in Rap.
    
    The Roland sample library even comes with a complete set of TR-808
    samples.

    Re: 808
    
    Yo, Dave, the Boss DR-550 has a bunch of 808 samples in it...this is
    why everyone is raving about it.  Unfortunately, it *is* a Roland
    product and has enough stupid gotchas to drive you crazy....
    
    						Brian

    
    Anyone out there have a Boss DR-550?   Are they any good?
    
    guy

    Hey Guy, good to see ya here!
    I have a boss, but he's probably not what you're looking for. 
    (teehee...hee)
    
    Paul     :^)                                                

    
    Paul,
    
    How much memory does he have?  Can you link patterns together?
    
    :-)
    
    guy

    
    ...I don't know about memory, but he's got a great sense of
    humor.  The sounds aren't bad either.
    If you can figure him out, you might be able to link patterns,
    but there's no documentation, that's the problem...
    
    Paul 

    
    re: .34 (Paul)
    
    :-) :-) :-)
    
    
    guy

    Is a Boss DR110 worth picking up for $60?
    
    Mike

    I'm trying to decide between a used HR16-B for $250.00 and a new
    Boss DR550, also $250.00.  Any suggestions?  I want to use this mostly
    for live performance.  One thing that has me leaning toward the Boss is
    that it runs on batteries as well as AC and it also has a lot of preset
    patterns.   Am I crazy to pass up an HR16 for $250.00?  The thing I
    like most about the HR16 is the touch-sensitive keypads.  Has not
    having that feature been a real problem for those of you who have other
    units?  Does anyone have a  Boss DR550?  Have you been happy with it?
    They both sound great to me, so I mostly care about ease of use,
    durability, reliability.  I might use this in street performing, which
    is why I care about being able to use batteries.

    Thanks in advance for your advice,

    Justine

    While I'm not familiar with the Boss unit, the lack of VS pads is
    a huge drawback IF you have no other way to program it.
    
    Velocity tweaked drum trax make a WORLD of difference.
    
    Preset patterns would mean nothing to me, and the battery backup
    feature is negligible. If the power goes out at a gig will you feel
    better knowing your drums are still running??? ;^)
    
    Edd

    re: .37
    
    I agree completely with what Edd said. 
    
    Drum patterns that don't have volume dynamics almost stand up and
    shout "DRUM MACHINE IN USE".
    
    I also think that the HR-16B has much better sounding samples than
    the Boss.
    
    However, I agree that the battery power is handy cause I'm a guy
    who sweats over the "cost" of setting something up and breaking it
    down at gigs, and power cords seem to be the biggest pain.

re: velocity sensitive pads:  as was sorta mentioned, if you're using an
external sequencer you can still program in the dynamics thru another controller
or the sequencer itself.  I have a HR-16 with VS pads, but I find it awkward
to use them.  I program thru my sequencer.

re: batteries:  I sweat over the cost of having batteries die after show
starts and having to swap them or plug in adapter without disrupting anything!
I'd rather use an adapter at a gig.  (not to mention cost of batteries)

-TR

RE: .37

    I'm not very familiar with the HR16, but I *do* have a DR-550.
    It does indeed have a lot of nice preset patterns, and the drum
    sounds are pretty good for the price.  However, one *major*
    drawback for live performance is that there is no way to hook
    up a foot switch for starting/stopping the machine.

    Hal Laurent