Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    I heard one yesterday at Union in Worcester.  Also heard the P3
    piano module.
    
    Both the Symphony and P3 share the same case.  They are *not* rack
    mounts.  They use the same art-deco styling of the M1 and 707 synths.
    There is a RAM card slot in the front, for loading new sounds. 
    
    Other than using RAM cards (of which Korg has produced zilch) you
    are stuck with presets; the P3 has two pianos, the Symphony has
    2 strings, vocal chorus, two organs (B3 and pipe), brass, a
    bass/guitar/drums multi (however "drums" is only kick, snare, hi-hat,
    crash and toms)and one other preset (I forget).  Both boxes are
    multi-timbral, accept velocity, aftertouch, etc.
    
    They are ROM based sample players and as such you either love the
    presets and buy it or you don't.  No on-board effects, either.
    
    Union's price is $599.
    
    

>     They are ROM based sample players and as such you either love the
>     presets and buy it or you don't.  No on-board effects, either.

So, Brian, did you like the sounds of them?     /Mitch

    
    The piano sounded good in a quick demo, but without comparison to
    a Roland RD or a Kurzweil or whatever, it's hard to say how good.
    
    The Symphony vocal chorus was incredible, but of limited use. The brass
    was weak.  Strings great but only two (slow swell and chiffs) and the
    bass/guitar/drums semmed to be an afterthought. If good sample cards
    were made available (cheap), it could be a happening little box. 
    
    With just the presets at that price, the Symphony is a waste of money,
    but the P3 of interest if you want a cheap piano box. 

    
    As I write this I have my left hand doing a few ditters on the KX88
    playing a Korg p3. Amazing what you can do with one hand. The P3
    sounds O.K. certainly better than the cheapo yamaha box which I
    tried yesterday. However I am not totally convinced that the big
    chords, which is what you want a piano for after all sound that
    convincing. I will give it a day or 2 and report back. Anybody know
    how many notes polyphony it has ? I don't have the manual.
    
    					Paul

    
    P3 has a 16 notes polyphony.
    
    I find the sounds quite nice for the price you have
    to pay for it, but I think that the module is too 
    velocity sensitive to be played with some synths
    (at least with a D50). You can adjust the sensitivity,
    but not enough to my taste. I have a pianistic (heavy) 
    touch so maybe I should get a controller that would be 
    better for my style.
    
    I had some troubles with the module just after I got it.
    During the first rehearsals and even during the first gig 
    the module went down a couple of times. It just refused to
    produce any sound. I swithed it off and on, and it worked
    again. Recently I've had no problems with it. Has anyone else
    experienced this?
    
    Eerik                      

Having played the Kurzweil 1000PX the other day, I am seeing the O3 in a new
light.  At the $249.00 US closeout, it seems to be a pretty good deal if you
can live with the built-in samples.
  
Thanks to Steve Michelson @U. of Virginia I now know of 4 cards.
 
1) Rock: E. guitar, e. bass, fingered and slapped, drums & percussion
2) Combo: Sax, B3 sans percussion, fretless bass with pick harmonics in top
octave. Drums.  (I have this and get a lot of use and fun out of the drums)
3) Groovy Piano: (not needed on the piano module) supposed to contain a Rhodes
sound as well as a grand, but I haven't heard it.
4) (and totally new to me) Orchestra Pit: Wind instruments and harpsichord
    Daddy's in Nashua has #4 on order.
    
    
The part numbers are POC-# where # is my number above
 
Listen hard to the O3 Symphony if you are thinking of buying one.  I like the
rather raw and ugly samples, (the choir is dynamite) but then I loved the
Mellotron.  
 
                                     

    A serious wart on these boxes is the lack of pitch-bend response.
    Who cares how good the sax sample is if you can't bend?
    
    The velocity response is excellent and adjustable (way down in a weird
    parameter menu).
    
    I'm getting a good Mellotron sound with by layering the two string
    samples with a third sample an octave down.
    
    	Eirikur
    

    
    Re: .06
    
    	How complete are the drums on the combo card?. And will it work
    on the P3?. The P3 is being blown out lately for $199.
    
    				Thanks, Rich

    The O3 and P3 are twins under the skin. All the cards work in either
    unit.  This ROM card technology is the same as the M1.  I'm sure that
    the samples are not compatible, but I haven't tried it.
    
    Here's the list typed-in from the map that comes with the Combo Card.
    
    The Rock Card (POC-1) may be a better deal for drums but I don't know.
    It claims to have "Drums & Percussion."  I have ordered it.
    The below are just called drums.  List is $69.00.  I think the sound is
    very good.
    
    Bass drum 1 (37 notes transposing down from the true pitch.  Wild.)
    Bass drum 2
    Snare 1
    Snare 2 (sounds like a piccolo snare to me) Nice and crisp.
    Snare Sidestick
    Lo Tom
    Closed  Hihat
    Mid Toms (3 notes)
    Open Hihat
    Hi Toms (6 notes)
    Lo Tom brush hit (2 notes)
    Mid " " (4)
    Hi " " (2)
    Crash
    Ride
    Pedal closed hihat (7)
    Snare brush stroke (2)
    Snare brush hit (3)
    
    
    The engine in these boxes is 8-timbral and 16-phonic.  I have used it
    with one kit on one MIDI channel, and two kits layered and detuned
    on another channel.
    
    Mind you, listen critically to the piano samples when auditioning the
    P3.  I don't think they quite have that Karl Moeller sound.
    
    
    	Eirikur
    

    Daddy's in Nashua loaned me the POC-3 "Groovy Piano" card.  It's only
    one sound, a piano sound that is pretty nice, it's not the same as
    either of the P3 built-ins.  If you had the O3 it would be worth it,
    but I have the P3, too, and so it's not worth the money for me.
    
    More clear than Piano 2, but not as bright as Piano 1.  It's a mellow
    sound like a good upright, but it, like the others,isn't as rich as the
    Kurzweil.

    re: .9, .10
    
    	Thanks for the quick reply. Obviously a night owl like me.
    Does this thing respond to multiple midi channels simultaneously?.
    Or are the drums,bass,b3 and sax spread across the keyboard?(!).
    	BTW, I've never heard Karl's piano.(or any other Commusic).
    	Not that I wouldn't want to.........	
    
    
    				Rich
    

I know that the P3 is not a rackmount, and I have a suspicion that the 
Symphony module also is not a rackmount (I don't remember ever seeing it 
in store). Please tell me I'm wrong and that it is a rackmount.


Mike D   
    

    I assume the O3 is packaged the same way as the P3.  I.e., a table
    top module, *not* a rack mount.
    
    I have a P3.  The pianos are a bit too bright for my taste, but
    a little EQ mostly fixes that.  The biggest problem is the velocity
    sensitivity, which doesn't affect the timbre.  A real piano doesn't
    only get less loud as you play softer, the timbre gets less "percussive"
    and more mellow.  The P3 does not respond this way - the sound remains
    just as bright, as if you turned down the volume.   It makes the
    piano sound "smaller", rather than softer.  Still, for $199, it
    does a nice job on those "redundant piano triplets" in the background
    of oldies covers.  The pianos in my SuperJupiter and JX-10 are
    mellower, but they don't have the tight low end and percussive high
    end that the P3 supplies.  And the P3 frees those synths up for
    other chores they are better suited to.
    
    The P3 has 16 voices, and these can be split over 8 channels.  It
    can be multitimbral up to the number of timbres onboard (two builtin,
    plus whatever the rom card supplies).
    
    len.
    

    Just to confirm: The O3 is packaged just like the P3, table-top.
    
    My own way of explaining the architecture: There are 8 "logical
    instruments," each of which can be detuned and octave shifted, and
    restricted to a range of keys.  Setting up a multi-timbral mode
    consists of (for each logical instrument) picking a sound from
    the built-ins or a card, and then setting the parameters in my first
    sentence.
    
    Vocabulary wars: Korg is particularly bad here.  These logical
    instruments are called Timbres.  Right....
    
    
    re .13 (Len)  'freeing up the synths'  That's what I do with my P3,
    and I'm happy with it.
    
    	Eirikur
    

From: Rick.Duff@f210.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Rick Duff)
Subject: Re: Korg P3 ROM Cards
Date: 24 Aug 89 20:45:28 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:226/210 - Midi & ST Exchange, Worthington Oh
 
Sure......a mini-review of the Orchestra Pit (POC04) card for the Korg 
Symphone (O-3) or Piano Module (P-3).
It comes with 8 seperate banks:
Bank#    Sound          Thoughts
_____    __________     ______________________________________________
1        Trombone       Not a bad sound, great on the lower end!
1        Trumpet        One of the better trumpets I've heard.  No WOW 
2        Tuba(bright)   Not bad.  No WOW factor though.
2        Flugelhorn     Not bad again, in fact rather usuable.
3        Tuba(soft)     How many tuba's do we need?  Not bad.
3        French Horn    A little thin, but rather usuable.
4        Flute          Nice but requires playing in the lower octaves
4        Oboe           Real nice sounds.  Love to hear with a WX7.
5        Basson         Well done, along with oboe, has a wow factor.
5        Clarinet       Another good one.  Scores on the WOW factor.
6        Harpsichord    Real nice.  Very usuable.  Score on the WOW 
7        Strings (fast attack)  WOW!  Very usuable.  As good as the O3
8        Timpani        Great, Killer real BOOM!  WOW!
8        Pizz. Ensemble Ok, nothing great.
8        Bells          Real Good.  Scores on the wow factor.
 
Not bad, 15 sounds for $60.  If you've heard the chorus on the O3 
Symphony, you know what I mean by WOW.  If it hits the wow factor it's 
good, but you don't sit in awe of it.  It's got some great bang for the 
buck.  If you've got a P3, no question get it.  In fact I use this string 
sound for think symphony strings more than my Symphony's setting 1 
strings.  
 
I've also got Groovy Piano (POC03) which is a nice accoustic piano.
I've heard the Rock Set, ok but wasn't for my music.  Still waiting to
listen before I buy on the Combo set.  I bought the Orchestra Pit 
un-listened to, and am not disappointed.
 
 
 
--  
Rick Duff via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH
UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!210!Rick.Duff
INET: Rick.Duff@f210.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG

    Eirikur - did you ever get card #4?  Is it as good as the review
    implies?  I'm particularly interested in the timpani.
    
    len.
    

        I don't have it yet.  It is still on order from Daddy's Nashua.
They have some number on order and I have reserved one.

	It sure sounds like a winner.  I haven't heard it.  I will post a
review when I get it.  

        Eirikur

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note 2099.0                      Korg P3/O3 SGU                          1 reply
UNXA::LEGA "Bug Busters Incorporated"                18 lines  25-AUG-1989 14:02
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    Sam Ash has an ad for the Korg P3 piano module and the
    O3 Orchestra module, priced at $199 and $129 respectively.
    
    I was thinking of freeing up my ESQ-M from string work
    and getting the O3.
    
    Can anyone comment on the features or sound quality
    of these units, (will I get exactly what I paid for it
    or is this a blow-out on a good unit?)
    
    Just curious,
    my visa is itching.
    
    Pete
    whos_girl_friend_just_bought_him_opcode_vision.
    (what am I in for?)
    

    re .19 re 2099.1 
    
    add to "Major virtues:"  inexpensive but well made.
    
    len (pretty satisfied P3 owner).
    

	Is there any 'setup memory' on either of these?  Do you have to set
up a multi-timbral, multi-channel arrangement EVERY time you power up or can you
save these 'performance setups' to memory?  What about SysEx?

	Dan

re:                     <<< Note 1642.21 by NRPUR::DEATON >>>
                              -< Memory?  SysEx? >-
Dan,

The P3/O3 modules do have 1 memory location for a full 8-timbral setup. This
can be loaded/saved via Sysex.  You do have to hit a button after powerup in
order to get into this mode--the unit comes up in single preset mode, set to
preset #1.  I THINK you can get into "multi" mode via sending the sysex data,
but I haven't tried this. The documentation seems to say that you can put sysex
dumps in the middle of a sequence to change the multi-timbral setup. I should
try it, because I now want a controller (or mapper) that can send sysex in
order to build master-presets for my setup including these modules.

A weirdness: in multi mode, you assign each logical instrument a MIDI channel.
A program change on that channel will switch between sample sets!  This is
probably even useful, but it surprised me.  I presume that the key-window,
transpose, detune, octave, and kitchen sink parameters remain unchanged, but I
haven't checked.  I could use this instead of sending sysex, if I could
standardize all the other parameters.

I agree with Len that these units are very well constructed.  I don't for one
minute understand the marketing concept, though.  Why not have more than one
user memory?  Why not save the current preset (or multi) across power
transitions?  (They do store a bunch of stuff across power transitions.)  I
suspect that all the fancy MIDI feature were put in by engineering, but
marketing wanted to sell them as preset-only boxes.

	Eirikur

    
    Is the voice allocation on these boxes fixed (you pick how many
    voices per timbre) or dynamic?
    
    My current rig is not velocity-sensitive, can the velocity mapping
    in an O3 be used to select *where* in the velocity curve the fixed
    value of 64 will lie (even if crudely)?  Also, is this mapping global
    for all timbres or selectable on a timbre-by-timbre basis?
    
    							Brian
    						$130_sounds_good_to_me

Allocation is dynamic, there are no number-of-voices parameters anywhere.
There are volume-level parameters in the multi-tibral mode.  I think the
velocity response is global.

These units respond to MIDI volume (CC #7).

Eirikur, who finally has something that other people might want to know about

My Symphony arrived last week just before the holiday weekend, so I haven't had
much time to put it through it's paces, but my reply in .1 still stands, except
of course, that the new lower price makes it a lot more attractive  8^)  8^).

I did find out a few more gotchas from the manual:

1. Output Assign

The Symphony has two output jacks, but is not really a stereo SGU.  The unit
has two modes, "Single" (monotimbral) and "Multi" (multitimbral).  In Multi
mode, a global parameter (called a "Function") allows enabling the Output
Assignment. When disabled, or in Single mode, both jacks have the same signal,
up to 16 voices.  If enabled, a per-timbre parameter may be set selecting
either output jack 1 or 2, but not both (i.e. no "center" position in a stereo
field). However, if the output assign is enabled, only 8 voices max will leave
either jack.  If you are using lots of layering, you may find using this mode a
hassle.  On the other hand, it allows stereo depth when layering, by assigning
each timbre of the layer to its own jack and then detuning then; the more you
detune, the wider the spread.  
 
2. Sustain

Using a sustain pedal with the Symphony yields a bizarre effect.  You actually
do not get sustain, but a slow fade!  Once the instrument voices fade out, as
long as you continue to hold down the pedal, a gritty noise is apparent (at a
low level, though), probably some D/A grunge.  It goes away when you release
the pedal.  Holding down the keys, though, you don't get this fading effect.
Very odd.

3.  Omni Mode

On powerup, the Symphony comes up in Single mode with Omni on.  To get to the
Multi mode setup you last used, you simply hit the "Multi" button and it goes
to Multi mode with Omni off.  To get Omni off in Single mode, you have to
modify a Function, which is forgotten on power down.  The unit *will* respond
to Omni off over MIDI, and if your sequencer sends an Omni Off message on
powerup (the Roland MSQ-100 does, for example), as long as you turn on the
sequencer last, you needn't manually switch Omni off.  

4. Modulation

As Eirikur mentioned, modulation may be controlled by either aftertouch or mod
wheel, or both.  Unfortunately, modulation is controlled by a Function, making
the setting global.  For aftertouch, it's either on or off, but for mod wheel
there is a third setting where some modulation is always on (on *all* timbres,
yecch) but the mod wheel can be used to add more.  The depth is not
programmable, and using my CZ-5000, with the wheel halfway more than halfway on,
I got the old "drunken sailor" vibrato effect (i.e. less depth would be nice).

5. Note Range

One sound on the Symphony is a bass/guitar/drums multisample.  For your average
61 note keyboard, the drums just start at the 61st key and you only get an
octave and a half of bass.  Using the octave parameter, it is possible to
shift the sound down an octave to get at the drums, but then you lose the bass,
or shift up and get an extra octave of bass but no drums.  Korg designed this
thing to be driven from a 76 key controller like, surprise, the Korg electric
grand shown in all the manual drawings.  This makes it necessary to use two (of
the eight maximum) timbres to get at both the bass and drums if you don't have
a six-octave controller.  This would also be true of the multisamples on the
ROM cards.  

6. Battery

The manual states that the setups are maintained when power is off by
a battery, which of course, is not user replacable (probably a lithium cell)
and should last five years.  I'm not too crazy about this idea, why should I
have to send the unit to a service center just to have the battery changed?
What if it died on a gig???  I'd rather have to change AAA cells once a year.


								Brian

    
    After calling around, I found out that the Sam Ash 800 number
    had "a few left", and of all their stores the Paramus NJ store
    had 3 left. Now they have 2 left, because I bought an O3 module.
    First Impressions? The choir is excellent and clean, and I really
    like the Organ II, (loud church organ).  The strings are OK,
    I had two "tibres" assigned to strings and detuned them, and got
    some serious digital-grade flange (wild sound).  Overall, for $129
    I have a very usable small set of sounds. I doubt you can
    get anything this good sounding for double the price.
    
    So, whats the going rate for sound cards?
    
    Pete
    

    Guitar Center in chicago comes through again!
    
    I picked up a Symphony module for $110 and the P3 for $150 (plus
    they threw in a couple of 12' midi cables).
    
    Now all I have to do is learn how to use this stuff  :-)
    
    All this brings up the burning question that I have, "How much does
    this stuff REALLY cost?"  Example:  I talked one dealer down by many
    hundred on my EPS and they threw in a travel case and 10-pack of
    disks.  I talked another dealer down by several hundred for my R-8
    and they literally threw in 2 ROM cards.  The Synphony and P3, usually
    retails at what, $400-$500 yet they have them on sale at $150 and
    I can still talk them down further (plus some cables)?
    
    WHAT GIVES?
    
    Maybe I'll walk in and demand a VFX+ (or whatever it's going to
    be called) for free   :-)
        
    "jackin' the house", Bob

Note 382.102                 Roland TR-505 questions                 102 of 102
AQUA::ROST "Chickens don't take the day off"         26 lines   6-SEP-1989
13:27
                      -< Mysterious Clipped Off Hi-Hats >-

(It seemed logical to put this reply here....)

Brian,
	I think this is an O3 behavior that you are seeing.  I have noticed
it on the drums, myself.  Note-offs seem to stop most sounds.  It's funny
and inconsistant between built-ins and the cards.  I have one crash cymbal
that cuts out (Rock Card?) and two that don't (O3 built-in, and Combo Card).
It's a bit annoying on things like toms, which shouldn't behave this way.
I first saw this using the arpeggiator in my Oberheim Xk controller.

After thinking about it, I was surprized that the general engine in these boxes
even made provision for not doing the cut-off, but I am quite sure that I have
a crash cymbal which doesn't cut off.

	Eirikur

    
    Re: -.1
    
    Actually the fact that the crash cymbal sounded OK but the open hi-hat
    didn't kind of bothered me.  The hihat thing is hardly fatal, I can
    always use the one from the 505 but it is strange.  I think I may try
    triggering the hi-hat from some other pads (like, the crash cymbal!!!)
    and see what happens.
    
    This seems to tie in with the sustain pedal thing I mentioned a few
    replies back.  Not exactly industry-standard implementation.
    
    							Brian

    re: this cut-off syndrome
    
    Read your O3 manual again (or the first time), gasp!  I could swear
    that as I was going through mine last night, I read a paragraph
    specifically mentioning the cutoff when connecting to a drum machine.
    
    Seems as though they also gave some sort of workaround....either
    that or else I was so sleeply I'm just making this all up  :-)
    
    "jackin' the house", bob

    Re: .31
    
    OK, I looked back at the manual and found what you must have seen.
    
    When discussing using Symphony with a sequencer, there is a footnote
    warning about the duration between note-on and note-off from "rhythm
    machines" may be too short to allow voices to sound.  This is true with
    almost any MIDI SGU, actually.  The "workaround" is to use a drum
    machine that allows programming the duration between note-ons and
    -offs.  Hey, just so happens that Korg makes such a machine 8^)  8^)
    
    I think that the open hi-hat is actually intended to cut off like that,
    so you can get the commonly used sound of an open hi-hat being *closed*
    by following the open sound with the closed sound.  If triggering from
    a *keyboard*, you would like the open sound to shut off as soon as you
    let off the key; the other sounds you would like to sound their full
    length regardless of how long you hold down the key.  That may be what
    the Symphony is doing.
    
    								Brian

 
Now that several people have these things, I have to ask this question:
How can I get from the power-up state (single preset mode) to multi mode via
MIDI commands?  I can save and load the multi-mode setup data, but sending
a setup via MIDI DOES NOT switch the instrument into multi-timbral mode.
I can't see how to do this from the manual.  Maybe it's not even possible.
It's a pain because I have to go press buttons on these units and can't just do
the setup in a sequence or from a master controller. 
 
Any ideas are very welcome!
 

I'm contemplating breaking down and doing a hardware mod, hot-wiring the
first preset LED to a resistor and capacitor "passive timer" that would
fire-up multi-mode by simulating the button hit every time that the first
preset LED turns on, like powerup.

Tim at Daddy's in Nashua told me he would ask Korg for a more complete MIDI
chart than that supplied with the units. I have little hope on that score...


Eirikur

Get 'em while you can.  See Usenet review in .15.  For you P3 owners, you
get strings here...

I picked up my POC-4 Orchestra Pit ROM card last night.  In general, I concur
with the Usenet review I posted a few replies back.  The one that I got was a
part of a very small (and presumably the last) shipment to the US.


I love the trumpet, I think that the trombones will be useful for
accompaniments.

I didn't flip out over the oboe and bassoon, but it has been YEARS since I
heard one of these close-up.  Mayhap I have heard too many narrow-pulse-width
approximations.

The flute is very good, if a short loop.  I love the clarinet--I'm going to use
this in place of an analog synth sound, I'm sure--and I LIKE analog woodwinds.


My one big disagreement with the review in .15 is that I love the Pizzicato
Ensemble.  I don't like any synth approximations that I have heard, but I do
believe that it should be doable--I just don't have one on hand.  This is an
impressive sound, well multi-sampled.


	Eirikur

Well, after my dismissal of someone else's "muffled attacks" Korg P3 problem
last week, I find that I have encountered it, or something very much like it,
myself.

Symptom: In Multi mode, I set up a layer of strings (from card) and brass (from
internal ROM).  This uses two timbre slots, both set to the same MIDI channel.
I then decide that the Brass needs to be at a lower volume.  Ok, I adjust that
timbre's output level downward.  Now I play a key again, and hear some funny
behavior, each note appears to start correctly, but then the brass jumps up to
full volume, as if it has switched voice-processors or something.  I've checked
and made sure that it isn't getting two copies of the note-on message (I
think).

I haven't done any exhaustive analysis yet, but I suspect that this has
something to do with having more than 8 of the 16 timbre slots assigned to the
same output jack, (which is mentioned as a restriction in the manual).  I have
everything assigned to the same output, and perhaps it doesn't discount timbres
which are disabled (which I tried).

        Eirikur
 

>Symptom: In Multi mode, I set up a layer of strings (from card) and brass (from
>internal ROM).  This uses two timbre slots, both set to the same MIDI channel.
>I then decide that the Brass needs to be at a lower volume.  Ok, I adjust that
>timbre's output level downward.  Now I play a key again, and hear some funny
>behavior, each note appears to start correctly, but then the brass jumps up to
>full volume, as if it has switched voice-processors or something.  I've checked
>and made sure that it isn't getting two copies of the note-on message (I
>think).
    
    OK, I've seen this too, a few days ago.  When you say you "adjusted the
    level" did you do this from the O3 interface or via CC7 over MIDI?  When
    attempting to mix a sequence from my SQ-80, I found that making *any*
    adjustment to CC7 immediately caused the O3 voice to kick to full
    volume, than about a bar later, drop down to the newly set
    level...ugly!!!  
    
    I also got the impression that the O3 doesn't have as many volume steps
    as the SQ-80 (which has 64) since I've seen weird things happening
    mapping the SQ volume pedal to the O3.  
    
    I guess the deal is not to try to have CC7 changes on the fly!!!
    
    							Brian

    I believe that I was adjusting that using the front panel.  I haven't
    done anything this adventurous in a while.  I don't recall problems
    with CC7, but I don't think I have used it in multi-mode.
    
    	Eirikur