Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    My opinion is that the additional money you might spend on PCM is not
    nearly worth it.  Especially considering the oncome of DAT and the
    difference in sound quality between a high quality Hi-Fi VCR and PCM.
    
    Note that there is a VCR out that comes with PCM.  It's been discussed
    hear in Commusic, but I'm not sure what note.
    
    	db

    The VCR-with-PCM is the Toshiba at Lechmere's.  But it seems to
    have Rolanditis (zit on nose).  It cannot encode/decode PCM from
    the tuner in realtime (i.e. you can't listen to WGBX).  You must
    first record it and then play the copy back to hear it.
    
    -----
    
    I have a Sanyo VHS HiFi Stereo, and it is incredibly clean.
    
    N.B.  none of the HiFi Stereo units can punch-in/punch-out like
    a cassette, because of the spinning-head technology.  They're really
    only useful as mix target, or to catch the signal coming directly
    off of the board.

    Thanks for the input, so far.  Looks like PCM is out.  I called
    Lechmere and they said it was the DX1000 that is no longer in stock
    and went for $1000.  Looks like the best option will be a Hi-Fi
    deck.  This leads me to conclude that Hi-Fi is best for audio
    mastering and is and will continue to be the most efficient solution
    for the average MIDIot (if there be such a thing).
    
    There is a minor problem with DAT as far as bang for the buck goes.  
    Because the coming DAT recorders are set up for consumer use, they do
    not interface via digital means to a professional digital recorder.
    This means there will be an analog interface if a DAT is used as a
    master and an album, for example, is generated from it.  Also,
    although Rat Shack has announced THOR (Tandy High-density Optical 
    Recording, I believe), they have not yet worked out all the bugs.  In 
    particular, the recording medium requires a laser that is both 
    dual-wavelength and high power.  Rumor has it that getting the power 
    necessary in a small, cheap package may be tough.  Another company
    (the name escapes me) is announcing a similar product for high-density
    computer storage to come out this fall for about $5000.  I predict
    that THOR will have several clones before the end of next year and
    that it will both be larger and more expensive than predicted, due to 
    the laser problem.  My impression is that Rat Shack announced it early
    to try to thwart all the clones that inevitably will be able to
    come out with their products earlier but at a projected higher cost.
    This they have done in an effort to encourage consumers to wait
    before purchase.  But, because THOR will still be consumer-oriented
    (like DAT) it will still not provide a perfect medium for mastering
    to professional digital because of the analog interface that will
    still be necessary.  
    
    Steve

    
    re: coming DAT recorders
    
      I don't know where you are hearing your information re: consumer
    DAT recorders, but in Montreal they are selling Casio 12-bit recorders
    for about $1200 CN and they not only have rs-422 and digital subcode
    capability, they can dump their data via the port. Whether or not
    your existing digital deck can talk to it is up to you.
    
      Of course, it's only 12 bits....
    
    /pjh

    One article I read was in MUSICIAN and dealt with the bandwidth
    rather than the resolution as the culprit separating the professional
    units from the consumer ones.  Sounds like the Casio would be the
    ticket if it can link directly, digitally to a professional digital 
    recorder.  (Is that what the digital subcode capability offers?)
    As I recall, home units usually record at 44.1 kHz, while the 
    professional units are around 48 kHz.  
    
    Steve

    
    re: subcodes
    
      All a subcode really is, is the ability to record non-sonic events
    at arbitrary locations, and puke 'em out the serial port. I suppose
    that can mean just about anything. I understand that there are some
    standard subcodes being defined, but basically they are just the
    DAT equivalent of a SYSEX command...
    
    BTW, some studio quality (notably the Tascam) CD players can do
    this too.
    
    /pjh

    re .5 - Actually it's the other way around - the pro units record
    at 44.1 KHz as well as 48 Khz.  The conusmer units cannot record
    at 44.1 Khz, so as to disallow direct digital copying of CDs.
    This, despite the fact that there are "do not copy" flags available
    in the CD to prevent this.  However, disallowing direct digital
    copying was not good enough for the RIAA, so they proposed CopyCode,
    which would screw up copying through the analog inputs.
    
    There're actually 8 (or so) different DAT formats, with sampling
    rates of 32, 44.1 and 48 Khz (maybe even others, I just don't recall).
    
    len.
     

    I just purchased a Toshiba DX900 PCM VHS HQ Hi-Fi deck, a floor
    demo, for $700 incl. tax.  14-bit 44.1KHz.  Also, once in digital
    format, video-video on another VHS deck will remain digital !  SO
    I can BACK UP my favorite mixes, or make a properly-sequenced
    stereo album master with a borrowed VHS deck.  Also got a 4-year
    parts'n'labor warranty for $75.. figured it was worth it.
    
    More later.
    
    karl

    I'm green with envy ...
    
    Steve

    after some time spent with the Toshiba BX900, some comments in words
    of one syllable..
    
    I like it.
    
    Let me say this.  The audio differences between VHS HiFi and the
    PCM encode/decode are subtle, but there.  The PCM spec goes down
    to 5Hz, and I believe it.  Tape 'spinup' time is slow but predictable,
    leaving at most a 4 second gap between pieces.  The tape counter/
    timer is accurate, with little slippage.  With PCM, the top end
    is more transparent, 'digital' sounding, logically enough.  HiFi
    works very well, and if I hadn't gotten sort of a deal on this deck,
    I agree that the extra money for PCM just isn't well spent.
    Approaching diminishing returns.
    
    Bill Y. stated this unit suffers from zit-on-nose syndrome in that
    you can't monitor off tape while recording.  I don't care, I trust
    the stereo level meters on the front.  Plays back at the same level
    as showed while recording, which is the REAL issue.  Monitor off
    your tuner/mixer/preamp.  Not an issue.

    However, it's astonishing to me to hear recordings that are as clean
    as if they were just being played via MIDI thru the mixer and system.
    
    I'm preparing my piece list and timings for a cassette album, now
    that I have a high-quality mixdown medium.
    
    The Toshiba is a superb video deck, too, with a  remote control,
    digital still, quad screen variable speed digital still, double speed, 
    and more.  Also has full VHF/UHF tuning circuitry, as well as cable
    TV stuff I don't even understand yet.

karl (misquote me accurately, Janzen!) moeller

    You mean this VCR does video too!!!
    
    Wow!!!
    
    ;-)
    
    	db

    >< Note 1562.11 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Yo!" >
 >                      -< Wish my sampler could do that >-
>
 >   You mean this VCR does video too!!!
  >  
   > Wow!!!
    >
   > ;-)
    
>    	db
a commodore amiga can sample video with a peripheral.
    Tom

>    a commodore amiga can sample video with a peripheral.
>    Tom

    rathole pointer to note 1589.5 on Amiga MIDI Videos
    
    km

    The zit-on-nose is not just that it doesn't monitor the output from
    the input during record, but also that _when recording a PCM VIDEO
    BROADCAST (like WGBX runs), you can't do the obvious like listen
    to the music via the PCM decoder as though it were just a highfalutin
    PCM tuner; you must first record the program onto tape and then
    you can play it back and listen to it!
    
    C'mon, folks!  There is _no_ reason to prevent Ch nn PCM -> audio
    direct connection!  It doesn't even require any extra hardware!
    
    I'll wait for the next generation, thank you (maybe a Tandy-THOR?)
    
    	-Bill

    The latest edition of Electronic Musician has a one-page review
    of the Toshiba DX900 PCM VCR in a studio environment.  I tried a new 
    trick, using the audio track to retain the FSK midi sync audio track in,
    uh, sync with the mixed-down master.  As it has a separate output,
    I was able to resync the Mac to the VCR using my Yamaha FSK box!
    So what, you say.. I could fill the 8track and max out my virtual
    voices from the MIDI rack units, mix stereo audio to PCM while
    simultaneously recording FSK on the edge audio track.. then copy
    stereo PCM to two tracks on the 8track, along with the FSK track,
    and start MIDI recording into the Mac.. ad infinitum/nauseam. In
    this case the gating factor would be the noise buildup on the Fostex
    8track (15ips, Dolby'C').

    I borrowed a friend's VHS deck and tried for the first time to back
    up my album master and some other mixes.  Abysmal !  When the backup
    was played in the PCM deck, there were all kinds of dropouts.  And
    when you get PCM tracking dropouts, everything stops !
    
    .. and then I noticed the backup tape was playing at EP, the Extended
    Play (super-slow) speed.. popped it in the second deck, reset the
    recording speed, redubbed and it was a perfect safety copy.
    
>    < Note 1562.14 by MIDEVL::YERAZUNIS "it's.. it's DIP !" >
>    The zit-on-nose is not just that it doesn't monitor the output from
>    the input during record, 
    
    "doesn't monitor the output from the input during record".. uh, I think
    I understand. I can indeed monitor from this unit, either using its 
    own headphone output, or using the PCM stereo line-level audio
    outputs.  I agree it isn't monitoring from the tape, but as what's 
    going on the tape is EXACTLY what I'm hearing anyhow, I fail to
    empathize.  I can even fade audio material using its own input volume
    control.  There's a peak-reading meter that works fine.  Haveta
    keep the levels at or below +5.. digital distortion is REALLY ugly.
    
    karl

    PCM :  Caveat Emptor 
    
    I have uncovered a problem with PCM in my environment.  First you
    oughta know I'm trying to do a cassette album.  After having TERRIBLE
    results from a local duplication house, using a 15" half-track,
    I found a Phoenix duplicator that uses Nakamichi duplicating cassette
    decks (hooray) and drives them directly from a Sony F1 PCM setup..
    direct from digital.  After talking with the guy, and seeing the
    EM review that says the Toshiba DX900 PCM deck DOES make F1-PCM
    format recordings, I decided to try to make a clea, correctly sequenced
    DIGITAL master.  (We had resequenced when going to half-track..)
    
    Here's where the problems began.  I borrowed a second VHS deck (NON
    HiFi).  As I said in my previous note, I learned how to use it for
    digital copying deck-to-deck.  The problem comes between pieces.
   
    When I stop the PCM deck after recording a piece, the PCM 'carrier'
    or 'tracking' signal also stops.  Of course I don't want more that
    4-6 seconds' pause between pieces.. When I record the NEXT piece,
    there will be a short (~1 sec.) gap on the tape, between the pieces,
    where there is NO PCM tracking (the light goes out).. when the PCM
    tracking signal is picked up again, there is a very audible POP!
    on the tape, in the (alleged) silence between pieces.  Remember,
    I'm coming in the VIDEO port from another VHS machine.. no opportunity
    to use any volume controls.
    
    So now I have a perfectly-sequenced, perfectly timed PCM digital
    master tape, which I can digitally copy and give to the duplicator,
    that has nasty, loud pops between pieces.  

    The only solution I see is dropping back into the analog domain..
    borrowing a VHS HiFi deck, using the stereo line outs from the PCM
    deck, to stereo line in on the HiFi deck, and using the input volume
    control to silence the uh, silent pauses between pieces.  Then,
    having a perfect VHS HiFi version of the album master (not a bad
    thing to have), I can dub BACK to the PCM deck, also using the stereo
    line connections.
    
    So next I get to borrow a VHS HiFi deck and test my theory.
    
    karl
    

    As long as I have new info, I'll go on talking to myself..
    
    The Toshiba Dx900 UNLOADS the tape when 'stop' is pressed.  The
    PCM tracking gap is caused by the time it takes to wind the tape
    around the heads.
    
    How I SHOULD have done my original master and all others is this:
    
    Find the end of the last piece on tape, PAUSE one frame before PCM
    tracking stops (or at the appropriate time), and go directly into
    record.  This prevents the PCM tracking gap, and thus the SNAP!
    that's generated when PCM  tracking kicks back in.
    
    Oh well.. think of all I've learned..
    
    karl

>>>        As long as I have new info, I'll go on talking to myself..

    Karl:
    
    	It may seem like you're takling to yourself but please keep
    going.  I'm learning a lot from this.
    
    - John -

    Let me second that. Karl please keep talking, you're light years
    ahead of me in technology but I can glean alot of good stuff from
    your experiences.
    
    dbii

    You're missing my point (missing the zit?)
    
    The problem is with the Toshiba is this: 
    
    	WGBX (channel 44, Boston) occasionally broadcasts PCM of 'audio
    	happenings" in it's TV video bandwidth.
    
    	However, the Toshiba is not capable of accepting the PCM video
    	and producing an audio output in REAL TIME.  You have to record it
    	to tape first, then you can get the audio-domain signal.
    
    
    Am I squeezing the wrong zit, or are you?
    
    (i.e. if you run your VHS HQ machine playing a PCM tape into the
    VIDEO IN on the Toshiba, can it make audio out of the PCM signal?
    If so, I've missed the boat and want to buy one right away! :-))  
                                                                   
    	-Bill

     Note 1562.21 by CTHULU::YERAZUNIS "Iconoclasm as a way of life..." >
>    	However, the Toshiba is not capable of accepting the PCM video
>    	and producing an audio output in REAL TIME.  You have to record it
>    	to tape first, then you can get the audio-domain signal.

    Bill, I don't know about a composite video/audioPCM signal coming
    in off cable or the air.. no such thing here.  HOWEVER :
    
>    (i.e. if you run your VHS HQ machine playing a PCM tape into the
>    VIDEO IN on the Toshiba, can it make audio out of the PCM signal?
>    If so, I've missed the boat and want to buy one right away! :-))  

    YES, YES, YES ! I have a PCM audio tape in a second VCR. It's sending
    undecoded PCM thru its video out to the Dx900's VIDEO in.  I LISTEN
    to the headphones OR the amp (fed by DX900's stereo line outs)..
    that's how I 'resequenced' my album, i.e. put the pieces in the
    correct order.  It does indeed decode PCM coming in the video input!
    
    My problems started there, as I explained, I didn't have my 'shift
    into record' routine down, not understanding the tape load/unload
    cycle.
    
    karl
    
    
    

   Lechemere in Salem, NH had three Toshiba VHS/HiFi/PCM decks yesterday
   for ~$670.  They were Christmas returns, but with full warranties.

   There were also several Hi-Fi decks of various flavors starting around
   $350.

   Enjoy,
   Dave

    < Note 1562.16 by SALSA::MOELLER "Conscientious, or just codependent?" >
>    The only solution I see is dropping back into the analog domain..
>    borrowing a VHS HiFi deck, using the stereo line outs from the PCM
>    deck, to stereo line in on the HiFi deck, and using the input volume
>    control to silence the uh, silent pauses between pieces.  Then,
>    having a perfect VHS HiFi version of the album master (not a bad
>    thing to have), I can dub BACK to the PCM deck, also using the stereo
>    line connections.
    
    Worked perfectly.  I borrowed an RCA VHS HiFi deck.. noticed that
    the levels on the RCA deck were higher, at least on the meters,
    during record and playback, than the same tape played back in HiFi
    mode on the Toshiba.  Once I figured this out it was easy to
    compensate.
    
    The high frequencies on HiFi are a bit more rounded, analog sounding..
    digital can sound a bit brittle.. I think the xfer to HiFi and back
    to PCM HELPED the sound !

    karl

    A VHS tape with PCM audio encoding made on the Toshiba DX900 
    tracked PERFECTLY on a SONY F1 PCM unit in 14-bit mode.
    
    The studio owner did suggest doing some subtle compression on the
    way to the cassette duplication dex.
    
    karl

>>>    A VHS tape with PCM audio encoding made on the Toshiba DX900 
>>>    tracked PERFECTLY on a SONY F1 PCM unit in 14-bit mode.
    
    I know, I know.  I just spent all of my money on another toy but...
    
    Does anyone know who sells these OTHER THAN the Lechmere "outlet"
    in Salem, NH and the price.  I can't find them (or an equivalent
    newer model with PCM) anywhere around here (MA and NH).
    
    The reason I'm not really interested in the Lechmere ones (they
    had 3 a few Saturdays ago) is that none of the units had the remote
    control or owner's manual (so I'm presuming that there's a remote
    for normal video use).  I imagine that it would be a hassle (and
    extra expense) to get the manual and remote so, wothout them, I
    didn't think the price (~$650-$700 I think) was that great.
    
    Go ahead, change my mind.
    
    - John -

    John, you right.. get the remote control.  It works fine even when
    recording audio-only.  It was a real hoot, doing the PCM<->VHSHiFi
    Shuffle, sitting in the easychair across the room, with my watch,
    a notepad, a pen, and two VCR remote controls.. my wife walked in
    the studio, saw me and started laughing..

    karl (chilly here.. low 50's)    

    re:26
    
    Check out the Sunday NY Times. The section with all the electronic
    ads has dx900's. (Uncle Steve, E33 ST Electronics, 6th ave electronics,
    47th St Photo). I am not endorsing any of them, since I dont know
    if they are good. I have been taking their ads into Crazy Eddie,
    and the Wiz, and getting the prices beat though. (not bad)
    FWIW, Uncle steve had dx900's for 625$ last week.

Have you checked the "Cookin'" (formerly Tweeter, etc.) chain of NH 
stores? There's one at the Pheasant Lane Mall in Nashua and at the 
Mall of NH in Manchester. I don't know for sure, but they typically 
carry the highest quality stereo and video components and are usually 
willing to make a reasonable deal.

-Dan