Conference napalm::commusic_v1

-< Is this Roland setup a good deal? >-  -((YUP!))-

	While I don't know what RD300's are going for on the used market, I WILL
say that it is an excellent choice for learning piano.  I have its little
brother, the RD200 and love it.  The action on both is not as heavy as the 300s
and the 250s models, which, for me is pure delight.  You MAY find that the 
difference of light vs. heavier action gives you some problem when playing an
acoustic piano.  I've never had a problem with it, but then, I learned on
acoustic pianos.  Perhaps some others may be able to lend their experience on
this subject.

	The prices you quote sound like store prices, which will be more than 
the used private market.  If you consider that important (that is, buying from a
dealer), it sounds like you are getting an o.k. deal, at least on the piano.  As
far as the amp is concerned, I think you might be able to get something just as
good, if not better, for less money on the used market.  I don't know much about
the Roland cube amps, but I haven't gotten the impression that they're the
hottest thing to hit the pro audio market.  Alternatives include Peavey's KB
series, ...

	Hope this helps.

	Dan

    I have an RD300 (non-"s").
    
    I think if it's "immaculate", then $1300 is probably a decent price
    and I would be inclined to say that getting THAT ONE as opposed to
    looking for a better price is your best bet.  You just aren't that
    likely to find another one for sale used.
    
    No question but that the RD-300 would be a great starting point
    as well as having long-term usefulness as you get into this more
    and more.   The main value is that it has an excellent sounds
    including piano, an 88 key keyboard and reasonable (not great)
    MIDI capabilities.   I don't see replacing mine anytime soon,
    even though my MIDI system is growing quite a bit.
    
    On the issue of the "S" versus the non-"S".  I prefer the non-"S".
    The feel of the RD-300 was a big factor in my decision to get it
    (as I've said elsehwere in this conference).   I've tried the 300s
    and to me it's only more "realistic" in that it's a heavier action.
    I regard it as "different" rather than "more realistic".
    
    However, it is true that if you intend to play a lot of acoustic piano,
    and the RD-300 is going to be your principle practice instrument,
    you would be better off with a 300s.  However, a new 300s is gonna
    cost you a lot more than $1300 and thus unless money is no object,
    I would say that getting *this* 300 is a reasonable compromise.
    
    I prefer the light action cause I don't play a lot of acoustic piano
    (and don't see to have much of a problem with hand strength when I do)
    and it means I can practice longer without getting cramps.
    
    	db

    BTW, the stand, throne and pedal for $70 is unquestionably a good deal
    if it's the stand I'm thinking of (which goes for about $175-$225 new.)
    
    If you don't want those items, I would probably take them.
    
    	db

    
    But Dave you need the extra heavy action !  Hanons,  while they  also
    give your lower arm a good workout,   are designed to strengthen your
    fingers.  All I have is the DX-7 and the piano in the living room.  I
    do the Hanons on the piano.
    
    I say learn on the "s",  it is easier to  move  to a  lighter  action
    than the other way  around.  Kind of like  going  from an LK-201 to a
    1955 Underwood.
    
    _sjz.

    Dave, if you don't want the throne, let me know... :-)
    	
    ------
    
    Just to play the devil's advocate:
    	
    	A "piano action" is not necessarily the best action.  I personally
    don't like piano actions, especially on electronic instruments.
    They feel artificially stiff.  If I want a workout, I have barbells.
    When I'm practicing music, I don't want to put some artificial
    limitation (like a faked piano action) on it (cripes, I'm bad enough
    already without adding unnecessary limitations).
    
    I also prefer a synth-style keyboard with the rounded (rather than the
    piano-style square-edged) keys.  Why?  Grace notes don't get hit as
    hard or as often as with a square key. 
    
    Some synths have a matte rather than a glossy keyboard.  I know
    the matte looks ugly, but in fact it really speeds up your hands
    because your fingers slide on the key surfaces rather than
    slip-sticking.  It's a much more predictable, controllable movement.
                                          
    
    -----
                                  
    Suggestion: _try_ a few other keyboards, just to satisfy yourself
    that you like the feel of the RD-300.  If you like it, if you and
    the instrument work well together, then you may as well go ahead
    and get it.
    
    An informed choice is almost always the best choice.
    	
    	(and welcome to COMMUSIC!)

    Zach,
    
    My recommendation was explicitly predicated on the supposition that he
    wouldn't have much need to play a real piano.
    
    My feeling is that the only reason you need strong fingers is if you
    need strength to push the keys, as on a real piano.  I'm not totally
    convinced of this, but I am more convinced that you should practice on
    your primary instrument.
    
    I view the heavy action of real pianos as a mechanical requirement
    rather than as a musical design to optimize performance.  Therefore
    I chose the RD-300 as my primary instrument.
    
    From time to time, I do wind up sitting at an acoustic piano and my
    fingers do tighten up more so than they used to before I was practicing
    on the RD-300,   But I don't find it to be much of a problem.
    
    I would not give up the enhanced repore and technique I feel that
    I get with the RD-300 for this.  I find that I can express more
    with "sensitive responsive " keys (light action) than I can with 
    a keyboard with a harder action.
    
    I'm just hoping that there will eventually be a trend to lighter
    action keyboards.  I've felt this way for years, but recently I've
    started to see keyboard players espouse this same view in magazines
    like Keyboard.  But, of course, it's far from a "revolution" at this
    point.  I'm just happy to have found (and been able to buy) the RD-300.
    It suits me very well.
    
    	db

    Welcome to Commusic. Chuck. I am probably the only one of this bunch
    that's met you, as you're West Coast based.
    
    The Roland pianos are some of the best electronic emulations you'll
    find. Re the other notes on the action differences between the 300
    and the 300s; you get to find which action your fingers prefer.
    
    I do have a comment about the amp.. a friend of mine has a Cube
    amp, and while nice, I don't consider it adequate to reproduce
    keyboards. You haven't said what your playing environment is...
    if you intend to practice in your living room at moderate volume,
    be aware the Roland pianos put out a standard stereo line-level
    signal... you could, with phone-to-RCA adapters just plug the piano 
    into spare TAPE or AUX ins on your stereo system, giving you 

    a) good frequency response
    b) true stereo (NICE stereo chorus on the Roland pianos) and 
    c) maybe most important, the ability to practice with your favorite
       headphones on.
    
    karl moeller sws Tucson AZ (DECwindows PID)
    

    
    Ya, I fifth (sixth? seventh?) the vote on RD series...
    Only cause I like it.
        
    Liking a piano to a synth is like comparing a harpsichord
    with a pipe organ.
    
    Or Apples and Oranges.
    
    You DO have to decide what instrument you want to play.

    They are different. Period. sure they have the same
    black and white keys. so what. apples and oranges are
    both round...(have I lost anyone yet?)
    
    NOW. Which is *better*? 
    	Piano or Synth?
    	Steinway or Baldwin action? (or. or...or...)
    	Beatles or Stones? (sorry, couldnt resist)
    	Apple or orange?
    
    Those of you that said "all of the above": Apply for a position
    	in marketting.
    
    The Engineering Answer: (the one and ONLY.): Just depends what you like.

    Send dissonant responses to DRUMS::FEHSKENS. Thank you.
    ron
    

    
    Disagree with stereo. Except for small room or headphone
    listenning. No 'headroom' to drive speakers to fill
    even a small hall, UNLESS you go above 200 watts/ side.
    
    Practical experience here. Even then, it doesnt seem to
    "CUT", just sort of 'be there'.....
    
    ron
    

    So I guess, the only conclusion you can draw is that you should get
    BOTH a 300 and a 300S.
    
    Aren't you glad you checked into this conference?
    
    ;-{)
    
    	db

    > The ability to practice with headphones on.
    
    The RD-300 has a builtin headphone output.
    
    	db

    re: .11
    
    Wow! I am definitely glad I checked. What a pile of informed
    opinion, in such a short time. Thanks!
    
    I am currently negotiating the purchase of the stated equipment.
    I'll let you know what I end up with.
    
    BTW, the stand included in the deal is probably not the one you
    referred to. I am not even sure I'll be happy with it long term,
    but given the 'package' price, I think I'll go for it.  The
    problem is that it is designed for stand-up playing. There is
    a way to lower it some (by drilling a couple of holes). 
    With it lowered, and the throne raised, it is at a useable height.
    
    This stand includes a synth rack which places the synth above
    the keyboard at a slight inward tilt.
    
    I suspect I'll get something else later, but for now, it should
    beat playing the thing on the floor!
    
    -chuck
    
    PS: Thanks everyone for the warm welcome to COMMUSIC. I'll
    definitely stay tuned! (oh, yuck, no pun intended :-) ).
    

    re: .12
    
    regarding headphones: It is quite odd to hear the lowest notes
    (on the 88 key keyboard) through headphones. Seems to me that
    the headphones allow you to hear *too* much. The individual
    frequencies seem separated, so that instead of piano they
    sound a bit more electronic. (It's not just this RD300, either -
    every one I tried, from RD300 to 3000 and 4500 systems sounded
    the same way).
    
    So, headphones are nice, but for the most part, I think I'll
    stick with lowering the volume on the amp when I want to be
    quiet!
    
    -chuck

    You're right.  I'm thinking of a different stand.

    Well, unless 1) you all convince me otherwise, or 2) the dealer
    makes me a better offer, I think I'm going to blow off the Roland
    Cube-60. Instead, I'm looking at a significantly cheaper Peavey
    60 watt keyboard amp. Comments?
    
    BTW, the dealer I am working with let me have a Roland Cube-60
    owner's manual. I can't believe some of the stuff in it. Examples:
    
      Under the heading "CAUTIONS":
    
      * To make connection of an instrument to the amplifier, be sure
      to connected the instrument to the amplifier first, then connect
      the amplifier. To connecting instrument observe the reverse sequence
      when disconnecting.
    
      The Troubleshooting chart:
    
      SYMPTOM                                     Action to be taken
    
    The pilot lamp does not turn on               See if the power cable
    without sound generation, even                is connected in the
    if the power switch is turned on.             proper manner [ie,
                                                  plug the d@#n thing
                                                  in... -chuck]
    
    The pilot lamp lights up, but                 Turn up the volume.
    sound is not generated.
    
    No Reverb turns on.                           Turn Reverb switch
                                                  on.
    
    
    There is more, but you get the idea.
    
    -chuck

    I finally closed the deal(s). Here is what I got:
    
    RD-300  (for $1260)
    Peavey KB-100 65 watt amp ($279)
    Invisible Products KB2 stand ($120)
    
    Now all I need to do is learn to play the stuff!
    
    Thanks everyone for the advice and insight.
    
    -chuck

    I think you got a really good deal Chuck.
    
    I'd have taken that without thinking twice, and it is with a great
    sense of pride that I describe myself as tight-wad.
    
    Only thing is be careful with that RD-300 on the Invisible stand.
    RD-300 is a bit wider and heavier than the Invisible stand is really
    designed for.
    
    	db

RE < Note 1408.18 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "The height of MIDIocrity" >

>    Only thing is be careful with that RD-300 on the Invisible stand.
>    RD-300 is a bit wider and heavier than the Invisible stand is really
>    designed for.

	Though I don't know from experience or laboratory tests, Invisible
Stands are advertized at being able to hold a Kurzweil 250 (they used to have
a picture of a K250 on it in Keyboard), which, I think, is heavier than the RD.
Anyone know for sure?
    
    Dan

    Yes, they had a Kerzweil on one in the store. The Invisible
    stand has (optional) special racks for large (depth) keyboards
    such as the RD-300. I am also impressed with its side-motion
    support.  It uses crossed cables as well as two parallel
    bars (one adjusts the stiffness of the stand). When I set it
    up and placed the RD-300 on it, I (carefully) wiggled the
    keyboard to see how sturdy the stand was. Result: solid as
    a rock.
    
    Just looking at it, it seems pretty flimsy (guess thats why
    they call it "invisible"). But it seesms to have strong stuff
    in the right places. The thin little tubes are steel, not
    aluminum).
    
    Note that I am a hang glider pilot, and am used to trusting
    my butt to things that at first glance look awfully flimsy!
    
    The KB2 (designed to hold 2 keyboards) also comes with
    a really nice "gig bag" for lugging the thing around in
    style. And the stand breaks down to almost nothing in just a few
    seconds. (loosen one catch, remove uprights and support [nothing
    to disconnect], stow in bag).
    
    I think it is really worth checking out if you move your
    equipment around alot.
                
    -chuck