Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    A used Roland JX3-P (without a PG-200 programmer) should fall
    pretty close to your range. The MIDI implementation *might*
    be marginal, but unless she's gonna get a second piece of gear,
    that shouldn't be a problem.
    
    Does she actually program the DX? (As opposed to picking a preset
    and playing away.) There are a handful of different architectures
    around which a 12 year old might find confusing if (s)he suddenly
    came across a strange one...
    
    Edd

	It's going to be difficult finding a good keyboard for $250-$350, even
in the used market.  Someone in this conference was recently trying to sell a
DX27 for $350 - He hasn't indicated that it is sold yet - you might take a 
gander through the titles to see.

	My personal favorite recommendation for a beginner is the Juno 106.  You
can't buy them new, although there is a new version with a built in speaker - 
called the HS-60, I think.  Both of these are GREAT learning tools, have all
editable parameters on the top panel for immediate access (as opposed to the
more tedious digital access scheme).  The architecture is analog, and you can
come up with some classic sounds quite easily.  It is NOT touch sensitive (but
I doubt you could find touch sensitivity in any keyboard in this price-range)
but it has a very good MIDI implementation.

	You can probably find one (used) for $350 to $450.

	Dan

    The DX27 also has what your daughter may perceive of as a big
    advantage; it's a DX-100 with full size keys...
    
    Edd

    I'm really not too sure about how extensive her knowledge is about
    programming synths, but her music teacher has been teaching her
    about midi and I know that he'd work with her on the technology
    if she got a good keyboard.  Also, we have a Macintosh at home and
    I'm sure she would want to hook up with that at some point (and
    so would her dad, the drummer).

    Its pretty transparent these days...midi "implications",
    that is....
    
    Go for full size keys if at all possible. You want her to
    get her hands used to real keyboards.

    I second the used JX3P or JX8P idea. It would, however, 
    only play one voice (not-multi-timbral) from the Mac, but
    that isnt THAT much of a restriction for starting out.
    
    (Methinks her Dad would notice it more, tho.)
    
    rr
    

    A DX-27 is NOT a DX-100 with big keys; the DX-27 has:
    	Pitch envelopes;
    	layering of 2 patches;
    	splitting the keyboard (eg. bass on low half, violins on upper half);
        Multiple foot pedals;
    	a bigger LCD;                
                
    and several other features which just aren't on the DX-100.  I know,
    I own a DX-100 and another band member had a -27 which I was constantly
    programming for him.
                     
    I'd suggest having your daughter play with programming an FM synth
    (like a DX-series machine); see if she can grasp FM intuitively. Give
    her at least an hour, more if possible,  Also have someone who
    understands FM help. If she "gets it", go with it.  If not, a used
    Roland might be the way to go. 
                                  
    	-Bill
                                 
    

            <<< QUILL::$222$DUA16:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COMMUSIC.NOTE;1 >>>
      
           
   > A DX-27 is NOT a DX-100 with big keys; the DX-27 has:
   > 	Pitch envelopes;
   > 	layering of 2 patches;
   > 	splitting the keyboard (eg. bass on low half, violins on upper half);
   >     Multiple foot pedals;
   > 	a bigger LCD;                
            
    According to the Yamaha literature in front of me, the ONLY 4-op
    sine wave only DX to have all of the above features is the DX-21,
    which I own.
    
    The DX-27, 27(S) and 100 all have the 1X16 LCD display and do not
    support splits or layers. The 27S has a couple of built in speakers
    and an on board chorus. The 21 has a 16X2 LCD.
    
    The 21, 27 and 27S all have 61 full size keys and support breath
    control, foot control and footswitch. The 100 does not support the
    foot controller.
    
    No mention of the PEG was made for any of the units, but I'm sure
    the 21 does have one and the 100 doesn't. 
    
    I don't see any significant difference between the 100 and the 27
    save the size and number of keys.
    
    Edd

	Edd is entirely correct re. the DX-27 and DX-21. I used to own one of
each and the DX-27 IS a larger key version of the DX-100; the DX-27 cannot 
layer two patches or have a split keyboard.

	A noticable difference between the '27 and the '21 is that the '27 has 
a separate PSU box ( a 'wall bug' I think you guys over there call it) whereas 
the '21 has a built-in PSU with a permanently attached mains cable coming out 
of the back of the unit.

					Andy.

    ARGGHHGHGH- The unit the fellow bandie had definitely did NOT have
    a wall bug.
    
    Darn!  I was sure it was a '27.  But I guess it musta been a '21.
    
    Brown case, heavy?  Funny way of "banking" ROM voices for access?
    	
    	
    

    Yep, that be the one.
    
    By the way, there's no need to load voices by the bank. The next
    function button to the right will allow you to load a single
    patch into any of the 32 RAM addresses.
    
    Gee, I don't s'pose you'd want to share any of your band's patches
    would ya??
    
    Edd

    Unfortunately, I usually made them up sometime between first and
    second soundcheck....  they were never committed to paper.

    OK, a purchase has been made (actually a deposit has been put down).
    It's a Casio CZ-1000 for $299.  It appears to be in perfect condition,
    looks like new, and they (Daddy's) are getting a manual for me.
    After looking around, it's actually the ONLY unit I found even close
    to that price with full size keys and nice programming capabilities.
    Daddy's offers a 90 day warranty too.  Everything else I looked
    at was >$500 and I found very little used keyboards of this type.

    My daughter's gonna be thrilled. Thanks to you all for your 
    suggestions.
    
    	Willy

    Don't forget to get some patch books for the CZ-1000 (CZ-101), and 
    consider getting a 64 patch memory cartridge. My CZ has been quite
    good, except for the limit on 4 notes (depending on the patch).
    The CZ-101 (1000) sends as many notes as you have pressed, even
    if the oscilators only deal with 4 or 8. I've been using mine with
    an MMT-8 (Alesis sequencer), and MT-32 (Roland sound generator),
    and I have no complaints. The CZ's are a good starting point & can
    be built up to sound very massive (MT-32, Fb01, etc) with a bit
    of work. Also, the CZ-101 eats batteries like they were going out
    of style. Make sure that you get a battery eliminator!!!!
    
    If you need any help, send me some mail. 
                                                             
    							Jens

    Be forewarned - the CZ's in that price range do not have velocity.
    I had a CZ230S for less than a month before I got rid of it. If
    your daughter shows a strong interest in music, you should consider
    upgrading before she gets into a lot of bad habits. The CZ's are
    good from the standpoint that they represent minimal risk, you don't
    feel guilty about letting them lie around the house unused for long
    periods of time.
    						John.

In the long run (assuming her interest is sustained), for the price range I
would recommend a used upright piano.  Assuming she is interested in music
for music's sake, the acoustic piano would not be obsoleted by newer, 
cheaper, and better products.  When do you expect to shell out the next
$250-300?  or perhaps $500-1000?  (I have spent 10's of thousands on MIDI and
recording gear; I see no end in sight).

If her interest in music lasts, then a more "contemporary configuration" is
perhaps in order.  I can't believe an acoustic piano (as opposed to a synth or
electronic keyboard) would dampen her interest/affinity in music if it's
genuine.  Besides, the technique learned on an acoustic piano is transferrable;
I don't believe the converse is true.

    I agree that an acoustic piano is vital.  My daughter has been playing
    one for years.  She wants a synthesizer in addition to our piano;
    not instead of.
    
    	Thanks again for everyone's input.

    I was wondering if given the constant advances in technology this note
    could be updated.  I have a similar situation to the base note -  my 11
    year old  son is taking piano lessons and he needs a keyboard to practice 
    on.  I don't want to buy a piano, even though the price for a used one
    isn't bad.  The space for it is a problem as well as moving it.  The
    price range I am looking at is about $250-$300.  I don't want to get
    into to it too deeply (financially speaking) in case his interest
    wanes.
    
    Thanks,
    Peter

    As I stated in another note somewhere 'round heya.....
    
    The Casio ct 607 goes for about 3 bills ( less on sale) and has a
    wonderful piano sound....  Try it... I have seen em in Bradlees, and
    the likes....

    But on the other hand, if his interest takes off, a 3 bill toy gets
    outgrown pretty fast.  Consider buying a used Yamaha PF85 (88 weighted,
    velocity-sensitive keys) or something like it, which you could resell
    if your boy bails out.  If you're going to invest in lessons then you
    should give him something that feels like a piano.  The PF85 is
    MIDI'ed, so he could really grow with this instrument.
    
    SWAV1::(John)STEWART, vacationing in AZ while his node gets fixed.
    

>< Note 1313.17 by PKENT::KENT "Peter Kent - SASE, 223-1933" >
                        -< New info to the base note? >-

I think .18 mentioned the Casio CT-607. The CT-607 is OK. It is more like
$250 than $300. For a few dollars more (about $300 at Service Merchandise) 
the Casio CT-650 is a better deal because it is equipped with MIDI and 
many other features. But by far the BEST DEAL in my opinion is the Yamaha
PSR-47 (about $330 at Service Merchandise). The Yamaha PSR-47 is also equipped
with MIDI, it is Stereo, and sound much better (in my opinion) than the Casio 
CT-650 and CT-607 units. It sounds to me like the Yamaha unit uses a 
combination of samples and FM to get these great sounds. Plus it has 6 drum 
pads on it that are really a lot of fun to mess around with. If your son 
decided to forego his music career prematurely, you would have the best 
resale value with the Yamaha PSR-47 in my opinion. Remember it's the PSR-47 
NOT the PSR-27 that you want (the PSR-27 doesn't have MIDI and many of the 
other features. For a few bucks more, the PSR-47 gives you much much more 
value, and at $330 is only slightly out of your $250-$300 range).

Why do I know all this? I recently went through the exact same thing advising
my sister-in-law which unit to get for her daughter. I went to Service 
Merchandise to compare the 2 Casio units and the 2 Yamaha units mentioned here.
I fully expected to pick the Casio CT-650, but sound-wise the Yamaha PSR-47
blew it away. 

P.S. I believe Service Merchandise has the best prices. No, I don't work for
them in any capacity.

Mike D

    well, Mike.... I have to agree with you.  The PSR-47 IS a better unit.
    
    But I thought that it was in the 400 range..... well, I havent been to
    Service Merchandise so I was unaware of the good prices.
    
    

	RE: .last two replies

	Both of you are right.  The Yahama PSR-47 is on sale at Service
	Merchandise UNTIL TODAY for $329.95.  The regular price is $379.95.

	I have also been looking for a MIDI keyboard in that price range.
	I also agree that the Yahama PSR-47 is the best keyboard in that
	price range and will be buying one at Service Merchandise.

								J.T.

    Well, upon the advice of my son's piano teacher and (independently) the
    advice of the school music teacher, I went out and bought a used Fender
    Rhodes keyboard and hooked it up to a Griefkit stereo amp that was not
    being used.  The teachers told me that the action of the Fender Rhodes
    was better than an inexpensive keyboard.
    
    There are only 2 minor things wrong with the unit:  one of the tines is
    missing and the action of the top key is sticky.  Fortunately, the
    person I bought it from still had the service manual which is pretty
    clearly written.  I just have to find a place that sells the tines.  
    
    The manual makes mention of a Strobotuner for tuning.  Is that device 
    commonly available today or are we talking stone knives and bearskins?
    
    I was surprised that the unit was so heavy.  It must weigh 100 lbs. 
    Not something that I'd like to drop on my foot.
    
    Thanks for your replies,
    Peter

    A strob-o-tuner isn't exactly a "stone knife" but it's hardly SOTA
    either. They're probably insinuating that you should use some sort
    of an electronic tuning standard.
    
    My Rhodes goes outta tune constantly. A decent tune-up takes me the
    best part of a day. The higher up the keyboard one goes, the more
    difficult it is to hit a given pitch, and after a while my fingers
    start to hurt from moving those obstinate little tuning springs.
    
    I believe Rhodes and B3s were secretly funded by a group of forward
    thinking chiropractors...
    
    Edd
    

    Edd, Rhodes supplied a little curved 'fork' for sliding the tuning
    springs back'n'forth.. go visit your friendly music tech..
    
    karl

RE: original discussion

$ set flame=on

Having grown up playing the piano and having two young children just
learning right now, I can't imagine trying to teach piano on an instrument 
without touch (velocity) sensitivity.  In the _first_year_, piano teachers 
begin to teach students that the hand that plays the melody is often
supposed to play louder than the one that plays the harmony.  Level 1
books have pieces with forte in the right hand and piano in the left hand.  

How is a kid supposed to learn to do this when all keys play the same way
on their keyboard?????

And we're not even talking about weighted keys...

If your kid is taking _organ_ lessons, fine.

But remember that both Yamaha and Casio make touch sensitive 61 key
keyboards that can be had discount for about $300 or $350.  And you can
get a lot of stuff used for that price. Daddy's often has used models at
their stores.  And in addition to Sam Ash, there are a couple of New York
stores that regularly advertise Casio keyboards in the back pages of
Popular Photography.  (The Casio model is the CPS-101.)

Ten years ago, you had to pay a lot for touch sensitivity.  But please do
not waste your money on lessons in the 1990s if you're not willing to 
find a keyboard with touch sensitivity. 

$ set flame=off

Alex

    Regarding some of the relatively recent replies on the Yamaha PSR-47,
    it's on sale at Service Merchandise for $329.97 until 31-December-1989
    (at least here in the San Francisco Bay Area).  I've been shopping
    around the past few days for El Cheapo keyboard (meaning $150 tops)
    more as a toy for the kids for XMAS as opposed to "something serious"
    (the rational for me being that, with consumer electronics, the
    longer you wait the better off you are; I fully expect 1-2 years from
    now a PSR-47 class instrument will probably be a totally stupid
    purchase at it's current price, something superior and cheaper will
    undoubtedly come along).  Anyway, I probably would have never
    bought it at the $379 price since that's way way more than my $150
    budget but I just couldn't resist at the $329 price, I'm very
    happy for what I got at that price, especially when compared to,
    say, the Casio CT-650 for about the same money.
    Also, for what it's worth, Service Merchandise had the Casio MT-240
    on sale for $89.97, best price ever I've seen on that (this model
    has been spoken of favorably in other notes in terms of what you
    get for the money, would have probably been ideal for my original
    objective except I really wanted full-size keys).
     
    					Bill Dickey, COMMUSIC newcomer/novice