Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    	Yes, I have a pair of good phones too...Mine are Senheiser's,
    dont know what model, that I picked up for a buck at the fleamarket.
    The original foam ear pads were long gone and the guy's son had
    crammed on the "mini" replacement pads. After hogging out all the
    foam and crap from the diaphram area, I fabricated "my own" earpads
    from two radio shack foam mic windscreens. They only problem is
    they keep falling off my head when I jump around, presumably due
    to the round ends of the mic windscreens against my ears. Sound
    great, though - just as good as my *heavy* 'ol Koss pro4a's...
    
    	Really, though, I'm so impressed with the Beyer Dynamic ones
    our "sound man" uses, I think I'll shell out $65 at the Littleton
    Radio Shack for a pair of my own! I highly recommend them.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    I use Sony MDR-M77's, and I really like the sound they produce...
    bright, but a rich low end (geez, I sound like a wine commercial)
    				- HBM

    I had to buy some cheap speakers to tell what my mix really sounded
    like. I used to use my PA speakers (a Cerwin-Vega 15, exp horn &
    piezo's in each) for mix downs & they sounded great, just like my
    Koss headphones. The cheap speakers seem to speak the truth to me
    much better. I use them to compare my mix downs with the radio.
    They taught me a bit of humility.
    							Jens

    
    re: .-1 Cheap speakers
    
       I agree. I have two sets of speakers as monitors for mixdowns:
    the real nice set of studio monitors (Eastern Acoustics), and a
    set of boom-box speakers. Always switching between 'em too. Makes
    sure you compromise on your mix.
    
       My opinion is that to make a quality mix you should never listen
    to just one set of speakers. Of course, listening to music is another
    matter altogether....
    
    

    I need to get some good headphones and listened to some KOSS TNT66
    phones last night. They were nice and light but sounded good. They
    were selling for $45.00 at Highlands in Lincoln Plaze, Worcester.
    
    I compared them to some others that they had plugged in, and I liked
    these a lot.
    
    I know little about headphones - does anyone know about these?
    
    Thanks!
    Bill

    I use Beyer Dynamic DT-990 headphones. They are about $210 but worth
    it. Frequency response is 5-35,000 Hz. These are the best headphones I
    have ever heard, much better than the megabucks Stax, and truly improve
    the quality of the mix.
    
    Chris

    
    I really like the sound of AKG K-240 phones.  I've used them in real
    studios where the bass was recorded direct and the only way to hear it
    was via phones.  I got a very solid, punchy low end and plenty of
    clarity in the highs.  Very comfortable earpads, as well.  Much nicer
    than Koss Pro 4-whatever-the-current-one-is.  About $80 to $100
    depending on where you shop.
    
    

RE < Note 1199.7 by AQUA::ROST "Everyone loves those dead presidents" >

	I'm looking in a flyer from Guitar Center and see AKG K-240F's and AKG 
K-240M's.  Do you know anything about what the differences might be?

	Dan

    The 240DF's are a calibrated version of the 240M's. They calibrate them
    flat based on European Specs. I use these and find them to be great
    there is no color added to these phones, great for mixdown. They run 
    around $115.
    
    
    Mike___

    I thought that it wasn't a good idea to mix with headphones (I've
    read that in here somewhere).
    
    I was looking for headphones just to monitor with in case it's late
    and I can't turn up the volume on the speakers. It sounds like
    you all use them to mix with. What are your thoughts/reasons for
    mixing with headphones?
    
    Bill

    I always mixed with headphones; that way I can concentrate on what's
    going onto the mixdown tape and more easily ignore any outside sounds
    (including things like unbalanced, massively unEQ'd monitor speakers, 
    performers screaming at each other like spoiled brats, other noise, etc.)  
    
    Headphones also give much better indication of the overall balance of
    a mix, compared to speakers (because of the one-channel-one-ear 
    connection).
    
    Lastly, because headphones are small enough to be personal-portable,
    you can get used to _your_ set of headphones and thereby circumvent
    changes in the monitor system or performers gear.  (Note- if you're
    mixing for a live performance, listen to the house mix, not the phones
    output.)
    
    	-Bill

    FWIW, when I was into it I found that mixing via headphones lead to
    mixes that sounded fine on headphones, but sounded off over speakers.
    In particular, I found that there would often be too much bass.  Also,
    I found that my hearing was off due to fatigue with headphones.  So,
    although I would set things up using headphones, the final mix was
    always checked over the speakers.  If I wanted to be more professional,
    I would probably have also hooked up a set of cheapie speakers to my
    stereo's "B" output for another check.
    
    Steve

    The AKG 240s are excellent headphones and probably the best in their
    price range. The Beyer DT-990s are better but double the price. As
    Steve pointed out, one tends to over-emphasize the bass when mixing
    with headphones. However, the high frequency detail is better than
    with speakers, so you might want to use both. (Not at the same time!)
    
    Chris

              <<< Note 1199.13 by TALLIS::PALMER "Colonel Mode" >>>
>    ...However, the high frequency detail is better than
>    with speakers, so you might want to use both. (Not at the same time!)
    
	I've said it before... mixes made with headphones will sound good
    on.... your headphones.  I've found bad bass levels (usually too loud),
    as well as far less reverb and hi-freq detailing than I heard in the
    headphones.. 
    
    So I use phones while constructing a piece, but speakers when I'm
    setting the instrument volumes and EQ (if any).
    
    karl    
    

    RE: .14
    
    Karl,
    
    I thought it was you who had said that before - what a memory!
    
    I think I may spring for a more modest set of headphones and save
    my $$ for a good pair of speakers (I'm all set for giving a listen
    on a lower end set of speakers!).

    Thanks all for the suggestions on what are good headphones - at
    least now I know what are good headphones should I come across a
    good deal on a set of one of those that have been mentioned.
    
    Bill

	Perfect time to bring up this topic.  This month's EM discusses
	headphones in detail and corroborates the opinions presented
	here. 

	A quick, but needless reminder: don't monitor for long periods of
	time with your headphones at high level.  Pete Townsend blames
	head phones for the hearing loss he presently suffers. 
	Otherwise, they're like sonic microscopes for fine tuning the
	details.  As has been previously mentioned, speakers are needed
	for imaging, EQ adjustments, etc.  When you think you've got it
	dialed, dub it to a stereo cassette and listen to it in the car. 

    No, dub it onto low-bias 3-for-a-$1 stereo cassette with the 
    head azimunth out of kilter and the dolby defeated, and listen to it on
    a boom box.  :-(
    
    -----
    
    Re: 'phones messing up EQ'
    
    	Who needs EQ?  :-)
    
    
    	-Bill   

As I mentioned a few years back in SOME notesfile, the DT880's are a great
buy.  They are now up to $180 or so, but it is worth it.  I had to have one
speaker replaced on mine last year, but it was still cheaper than buying new
headphones.  I have had mine about four years, and they have gotten heavy use.

Beyer's DT990's are apparantly the new top-of-the-line model.  I couldn't find
anything higher than the ones I already had when mine needed repairing (I had
considered buying a new set instead).

The 880's are the most comofrtable headphone I have ever worn.  Only after
more than four hours straight to I get any noticeable fatigue, and my ears
NEVER get hot or sweaty.  They breathe very well, due to the fabric and the
design.  They have a very natural sound (fairly flat curve), and great depth.

I owned the AKG 240's earlier, and couldn't wear them for more than an hour
without getting a severe headache/earache.  They don't let the ear breathe.
The frequency response was also less flat than on the Beyers.  The mixes I
make now are much more likely to sound reasonable on ANYBODY's system (no
matter how BAD) than mixes I did with the AKG's.

I always do a last-minute sound check using my Celestion speakers.  But I find
it easier to work with the mix with phones until the final sanity check.


				Mark

    Karl, the problem of bass over-emphasis you refer to is a result of
    *cheap* headphones that have poor bass response. I'm with Mark -
    headphones with flat response over the full audio range are quite
    capable of good mixes. Another consideration is the quality of the
    monitors you are using. Low budget Japanese monitors tend to be boomy
    and not very flat.
    
    Chris

    Of course there's the school of thought that says if your audience is
    going to listen on boomy low-budget monitors you should mix FOR them.
    
    The Yamaha NS-10s were designed NOT to be flat...
    
    Edd

    Another vote for K-240s in any flavor.  Despite Mark's bad experiences
    with them, I've worn mine for hours with no problems, although I'll
    echo the concern about doing any mixing for hours on end via
    headphones.  I used to use K-240s as my "onstage monitor" when I
    playing along with a sequencer.  Even in the hot and sweaty environment
    of a live gig they were comfortable.  Of course, that may just be
    'cuz of my step time sequencing technodweebweenie pinhead...
    
    I mix through my monitors, and use the phones to check the details;
    the "microscope" analogy was right on.  The "big picture" judgements
    get based on what the speakers say, and what a few weeks of listening
    to the mix in the car tells me.
    
    len.
     

    addendum:
    
    I also check(ed) a mix by playing it on car speakers as well as
    headphones and home speakers.  If it sounds good on all three, ship it.
    But, make sure you listen plenty on all three.  After a few listens the
    weaknesses show up.  Newness of the sound has to wear off.
    
    Steve

    I agree with Karl Moeller.
    
    Mixing with headphones is generally not a good idea.  It involves
    many more things than just EQ (stereo separation, room ambience,
    ear fatigue, etc.).
    
    In order to avoid starting another debate I'll say that it CAN
    be done, it just shouldn't be done.  ;-)
    
    Having gone through the final mixing stages of my Commusic VII
    submission, I've really come to appreciate the value of having
    good monitors.  A mix that sounded good on my cheapo monitors
    sounded awful on my good stereo.
    
    A pair of NF-10s got bumped WAY  UP on my "list" of things I'd
    like to buy.
    
    	db
    
    p.s.  The only time I ever "tweaked" a Commusic submission (when I
          was the Commusic producer) was a submission that was mixed
          via headphones.  The EQ was so off that even with my EQ
          sliders set to maximum cut on the bass, it still ended up
          fairly boomy.  There was a kickdrum that went right thru
          you.

	I'm also in agreement about limiting your use of headphones.
	I have 3 set of speakers that I use during mix downs. An excellent
	pair of cabinets (actually these are my P.A. cabinets - 15's,
	Horns & Piezo's), an average set of bookshelf speakers (8's and
	a tweeter) and a real mediocre set of $25.00 car sterio speakers
	(radio-shack - the set that has it's own molded plastic open back
	enclosures with 5 1/4 inch speakers). These are routed thru a
	rotary switch & I swap back & forth all of the time. When It sounds
	reasonable on the bookshelf speakers, I switch to the car speakers
	& re-tweek. This goes on for a while until I'm reasonably happy,
	then I bring in the quality speakers & tweek some more. Having this
	range of things to play back thru lets me compromise for the low
	end & make sure that it sounds reasonable on cheap speakers.

	Most studios also have a set of cheap speakers around for the
	same purpose.

	This is handy because most of what I do ends up on Demo tapes for
	my Duo, and belive it or not, most Demo tapes that I hand out (over
	50 tapes last year) get played on cassette decks that have even worse
	speakers than my cheap car sterio speakers (I'm usually there when
	the booking negotiations start & I can tell you, the people who 
	might be booking you probably spent all of $25.00 on thier Demo
	Playback System).

	Also, for Demos, I mix down to mono (you never know what the tape
	will be played back on). Even when I mix down for Sterio, I test
	the mix in Mono, just in case....

	When I used headphones for my mixes (Koss - I don't remember the
	model, but I spent around $60.00 for them) mix downs sounded great
	until I tried the mix in my car cassette deck & then they sounded
	very poorly.

	I use headphones when I recording & working with playbacks, but
	I would never to a final mixdown using only headphones.

								Jens

    
      Interesting and informative conversation.
    
      It's funny that there was so much mention about using the car to
    listen to your mixes. 
    
      I've often wish I could duplicate my car interior in my house.
    I can hear things in that environment that don't show up anywhere 
    else. 
    
      Apparently there is some validity to my experience.
    
       - Bob

All I can say is, you guys must not have roommates.

The whereabouts of my roommates this weekend will determine whether I get
around to mixing down anything for COMMUSIC VII.  I intend to use monitors.

Where I find headphones most useful is in stereo mix.  It's too hard to do
with monitors unless you have an elaborate remote control setup, as otherwise
you can't stay positioned correctly while tweaking.


				Mark

    Except that the stereo image will be different.  With headphones there
    is no mixing of L+R, as there is with speakers.  See article on
    choosing headphones in the latest EM.