Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Oh boy, a MIDI/CV and CV/MIDI interface for $100.  Now I can MIDI up my
Avatar guitar synth.  Has anyone had experience with one of these PAIA MIDI/CV
boxes?  Can the control voltage be adjusted to work with ARPs, MOOGs, etc?

Todd.

	Is this a drastically reduced catalog?  Do they still have any of the
modular synth stuff?

	Judging from what people have written in the past, PAIA always seemed
like a company to stay away from quality-wise.  Does this update in product
listing also imply improved QC?  Any recent users of PAIA out there?  I'd love
to know, since there's many things they offer that interest me.

	Some specific product questions:

	What's the advantage or use of MIDI merger?  What problem is being 
addressed?

	In order to make a 2-in n-out MIDI THRU box, would there be more 
involved than connecting two THRU boxes with a 5-pole, double-throw switch?
Not that this is a practical solution, it's more of a curiosity to me.

	Dan

re .2:

>	Is this a drastically reduced catalog?  Do they still have any of the
>modular synth stuff?

They still have the same old stuff, too.  I just didn't include it.

>	Judging from what people have written in the past, PAIA always seemed
>like a company to stay away from quality-wise.  Does this update in product
>listing also imply improved QC?  

Yup, definitely improved QC implied.

>	What's the advantage or use of MIDI merger?  What problem is being 
>addressed?

I suppose they are addressing the problem you might have if you want to
merge two MIDI busses.  It'll be a long time before I get *that* much 
equipment.

>	In order to make a 2-in n-out MIDI THRU box, would there be more 
>involved than connecting two THRU boxes with a 5-pole, double-throw switch?
>Not that this is a practical solution, it's more of a curiosity to me.

You may encounter a parallel loading problem.  Also, if you daisy-chain too
long, you'll introduce too much serial delay.


Steve_who_might_get_some_PAIA_stuff_*someday*

RE < Note 1014.3 by ECADSR::SHERMAN "Correct as always, King Friday ..." >

>>	What's the advantage or use of MIDI merger?  What problem is being 
>>addressed?

>I suppose they are addressing the problem you might have if you want to
>merge two MIDI busses.  

	Uh, I think I could have guessed that.  But WHY would one need to merge
two MIDI busses?

>>	In order to make a 2-in n-out MIDI THRU box, would there be more 
>>involved than connecting two THRU boxes with a 5-pole, double-throw switch?
>>Not that this is a practical solution, it's more of a curiosity to me.

>You may encounter a parallel loading problem.  Also, if you daisy-chain too
>long, you'll introduce too much serial delay.

	What is a parallel loading problem?

	Dan

	 Example of need for a merge box...
    
         Sequencing 2 keyboards at once.
    
    Edd

    With all the multi-timbral, rack-mount boxes available these days,
    it's not unusual to want to control a single synth from two sources.
    You may want to sequence a rhythm track and play a diferent sound
    on the same synth from a remote keyboard. Requires a MIDI merger.
    
    Rob
    

    
    ...couldn't one use a merger *instead* of an A-B Box in a live
    performance situation where you may want to use any one of a number
    of controllers?
    
    Wouldn't this solve the dreaded "Oh NO!! I switchced from A to B
    before A sent the NOTE-OFFs!" syndrome??
    
    Edd
    

	O.k., I understand a little better.

	I had a similar problem, now that I think about it.  I wanted to use
the sequencer to control a synth *sometimes* and I wanted to control it from a 
master keyboard at other times.  Solution?  Send the master keyboard MIDI out to
the sequencer, send a 'merge' of MIDI signal from master and sequencer back to 
master, and THRU to other synths.  Just need to remember to turn Local off.

	Hey I had a MIDI merge all this time and didn't know it!

	Dan

    A parallel loading problem is what you get if the number of
    opto-isolators you've hooked together (MIDI-in's) require more 
    current than a driver (the MIDI-out) can put out.  You might also
    call it a fanout problem.
    
    Steve

    
    You Might also call it a violation of midi spec.
    
    The spec flor max number of ins for 1 out is:
    
    *1*
    
    that is: One input to one output. 
    
    Len says that theres also a spec for the max number of
    daisy chained (out->in, thru->in, thru->in,....) but I 
    havent looked for it. This isnt a loading problem, but
    rather a pulse widenning/shortning problem due to rise
    and fall times being cascaded...
    
    rr
    
    

Regarding parallel load;

	I was just thinking - my question didn't involve a load problem, I
was talking about *switching* back and forth between two destinations via
a 5-pole/double-throw switch.  This is just a simple switching process, no?

	BTW, hasn't somebody put out a MIDI Y-cord?  I thought I remember
seeing something in Electronic Musician...  They said it worked, but presented
problems.  THAT sounds like a parallel load problem.

	Dan

    Yeah, that's a switching process.  Simple *only* if the stuff you're
    switching is quiet while you're switching it.
    
    Steve

    Wockin' Won et moi discussed the 5 pole DT switch A-B box as a 
    solution to multiple controller blues.
    
    I intend to build one but hope to use a 3 position switch to insure
    break before make....
    
    Y-cord? My turn for questions... assuming you've got a thru port
    wherever you have an in, what purpose would a Y cord serve?
    
    Edd

RE < Note 1014.13 by JAWS::COTE "Send lawyers, buns and honey..." >

>    Y-cord? My turn for questions... assuming you've got a thru port
>    wherever you have an in, what purpose would a Y cord serve?

	I would assume it was intended as a low budget alternative to a MIDI
merge.  Anyone else read the review?
    
	Dan

    I could conceive of it working as a MIDI *splitter* (1 source feeding
    2 objects), but not vice versa. Seems to me the you'd end up with
    a big bowl of alphabit soup that only spelled t r o u b l e ....
    
    Edd

    
        We use a J.L. Cooper  MIDI-blender live for controlling one
    of our drum machines from 2 sources. It will get triggered by the
    sequencer and/or a Simmons SDS-9 brain. There are no problems using
    multiple sources.  It also has filter switches to take out certain
    MIDI commands if necessary.
    
                                             Larry
        

    The Y cord for a merge simply wouldn't work.
    
    It probably wouldn't work for split either.  Current loop stuff
    (e.g. MIDI) usually only works with a single source and a single
    ``sink.''
    
    The only possible use for a Y cord could be for the use with the
    ST's brain enhanced ``out'' jack.  For some stupid reason, they
    decided to put a ``thru'' connection on the two unused pins.  A
    Y connector would be needed to turn it back into two standard jacks
    (An ``out'' and a ``thru'').
    
    I have always wanted to build a MIDI repeater which is much like
    the DEMPR.  A star topology where the data received from each port
    is broadcast to all the others.  With such a device you would NEVER
    have to repatch.   Unless of course you run out of MIDI bandwidth,
    in which case you would want ``bridge'' functions (programmable
    traffic filtering) in addition.  Might be expensive, but it might
    not.  I haven't had any time to tackle it, though.  Anybody
    interested? (In helping develop it, that is, not in using it!)
    
    Steph
    

    re .10 - I don't know if the MIDI spec says "don't do it" but I
    repeatedly seen the recommendation to not daisy chain through more
    than 2 successive MIDI THRUs (I.e., out1 to in2, thru2 to in3, thru3
    to in4; this drives three slave synths from one master).
         
    Regarding CV stuff - My MSQ-700 came with a Roland DCB cable that
    I have no use for.  Anyone with old Roland DCB (a CV buss) compatible
    equipment is welcome to it, gratis.  CV users might be intrqigued
    to know that the MSQ-700 will record/sequence CV data from the DCB
    buss!
    
    Finally, except for the possibility of current loop problems, MIDI
    merging might be done with a Y-cord *as long as messages don't
    collide (i.e., come in on both inputs at the same time)*.  A switch
    is a safe way of guaranteeing that this can't happen.
    
    len.
     

    Actually, BECAUSE of current loop problems, you can't merge MIDI
    using a Y cable.
    
    As the name implies, current is sourced by the transmitter, it loops
    through the receiver, and is sinked by the transmitter.  If you
    have multiple transmitters (what you get with a Y), then you have
    broken the loop in the middle--the current (probably) never returns
    to the transmitter.  Or at least it doesn't return along the expect
    path (it all has to come back eventually!).
    
    Steph
    

        
    
    As Len implied, you can't rely merge MIDI by a Y-cord even if there
    were no restriction due to current loop technology: there is no
    way to be sure you don't have colliding messages other than serially
    using the source devices.
    
    If you can live with serially using the source devices, then a switch
    box will do. Some month ago there was an article in Electronic Musician
    on a "build it yourself" switch box. All the basic circuits were
    given to build any complexity of switch box and/or through box.
    (I think there was even an address to write to for an etched PCB,
    if you didn't want to "breadboard" it up - can't remember for sure.)
    
    A merge box was not described, save to say that some degree of
    intelligence is required to accomplish the function. 
    
    If any really wants to know which issue, I could probably find it
    somewhere about the place ...

    Note that if you don't want to go to the trouble of using active
    electronic parts, simple DPDT switches mounted in a box with DIN
    connectors work nicely (part of the MIDI design was intended to allow
    the reconfiguration of a MIDI network without power devices off - it
    works, just make sure you aren't sending data when you do it ...). 
        
    Robert
    

Someone mentioned something about EM and it's origins in another note.  I 
thought folks might be interested in some historical background concerning EM, 
POLYPHONY, and PAIA Electronics since they're all related.  When I was going 
through college, I had the opportunity to work a couple of summers (1979 and 
1980) at PAIA in Oklahoma City.  

If you're not interested, here's your chance to hit "next unseen"

Jeff


It all started when two guys got together to make synthesizer kits in a garage 
in Oklahoma City (OKC) in the early 1970's.  One of the guys is president and 
owner of the company is John S. Simonton, Jr.  John holds several degrees in 
several areas (mainly electronics). He loves Hawaii.  So when it came time to 
come up with a name for the company, he used the name of a Hawaiian god:  PAIA  
(pronounced "pie-yuh").  John's a very bright guy.

By 1974, they had moved into a warehouse with some office space on Wilshire 
Blvd., near Western Ave. in N.W. OKC.  They established themselves as 
a mail order company that sold cheap (uh, inexpensive) synthesizer kits and 
modules.  The synthesizers were analog devices that had to be carefully tuned 
since they were sensitive to temperature, humidity, time of day, etc.  Each 
key of the 37 note AGO keyboards had a trimmer pot associated with it that 
allowed the user to tune the entire keyboard to the "equally tempered scale" 
(a somewhat tedious task; good thing there were only 37 keys!). PAIA was in a 
very good position to provide for the needs of those musicians who could not 
afford the expensive Moogs and ARPs and the like.  The only competition to 
PAIA was a company called ARIES I believe, who also made synth kits...anyway, 
PAIA had a nice little niche to sell it's wares.  During this time, the 2700 
and 4700 series modules were developed.

Then came the "digital revolution".  By 1979, PAIA had created their D/A 
converter module.  This allowed the design of the keyboard electronics to be 
simple diode switches.  These switches were then assigned a number and this 
number represented a control voltage which was output to the existing voltage 
controlled modules that were the main-stay of PAIA.  No more tuning keyboards; 
no more worries about temp. and time.  The 8700 series modules were here.

I remember during that time when John would take trips out to CA. back in 1980.
It turned out that he was visiting our friends at Sequential Circuits (of 
Prophet-5 fame).  They were discussing something about a common interface 
between vendors' products.  This was probably the prelude to what we now know 
as MIDI.  John knew that the digital revolution would change the face of how 
we synthesize.  His dream synth was realized in the PAIA PROTEUS (not the EMU 
one).  This was a 3-octave, normalized, monophonic digital synthesizer.  It 
had the capability to store 16 patches in memory for instant recall of patches 
(much like it's done today).  It also had a computer port which expanded the 
capabilities of the synth (I don't remember what all it could do).  He later 
put in a MIDI retrofit on it.  In fact, that's probably PAIA's main-stay today: 
MIDI controllers, MIDI-CV converters, and a variety of effects units. The 
operation moved to Edmond, OK., sometime in the mid-1980's.  Edmond could 
be considered a northern suburb of OKC.  Besides, it's closer to John's house.


POLYPHONY/ELECTRONIC MUSICIAN:

In 1975, the first "POLYPHONY" magazine was published as a quarterly newsletter 
for PAIA fans.  The articles were exclusive to PAIA's technology.  The 
physical format of the rag was the same as the technical manuals for the kits, 
i.e., Reader's Digest size.  The larger format came later.  The "publishing 
company" was also in the same building and was run by John's wife, Linda.  A 
pretty handy little operation.  As the magazine grew in subscriptions and 
physical size, other technical writers joined in to make contributions to the 
DIY industry.  Craig Anderton was one of them.  As John seemed to become 
interested in other things, Craig was made the Contributing Editor of 
"Polyphony".  Although Craig lived on the west coast, the magazine was still 
being published in OKC.  Later, the magazine's name was changed to "Electronic 
Musician" and then was eventually sold to a publishing house in CA whose name 
we now can see in the front credits.

This note has lain dormant long enough, dontcha think?

I recently received PAiA's catalog, and wondered whether some of our intrepid
noters have built their vocoder or stereo mixer kits. For that matter, if you
have any comments on *any* PAiA stuff you've put together, tack those on too.
I know that db did a ring modulator from Craig Anderton's book of projects
(for which PAiA markets kits). Anyone have any experience with these things?

I must admit, the vocoder is what really piques my interest.

Bob

    PAIA has always had extremely primitive physical hardware.  Expect to
    cut, prepare and solder on the order of 25 pieces of shielded coax
    from point to point on the board, and from board to panel.
    
    It is almost immpossible, in my experience, to construct a piece of
    PAIA gear so that it is robust enough to be moved.
    
    The price is right for the hobbiest/dabbler, but the construction is
    such that you have to want to dabble a fair amount to keep it working.
    
    They use single-sided boards, hanging off of the front panel by means
    of tiny L brackets.  They are suddenly now selling rackmount enclosures
    which they say will work with their kits, but it is clear that that
    would require precision drilling of the front panel of the kits,
    something that I'd find hard to do, especially with the thing built
    already.  There is also no clearance for the bottom of the chassis.
    
    I learned a lot building the original PAIA synth in college.  I'm just
    warning you that it isn't a buy it/build it/use it proposition.  It's 
    more involved.
    
    	Eirikur
    

Thanks, Eirikur- that's great info to have ahead of time. The vocoder does have
a predrilled front panel you can purchase, but the time factor and the need to
continually tweak are the type of things which encourage me to hold off until I
know I can spare the requisite time.

Cheers,
	Bob

	I built the midi/CV and found the parts and circuit board
	in good shape, easy to solder. the 96 pin surface mount
	computer chip on it was a pain, I had to get molex strips
	and socket it (Ive learned from past hell). The
	thing didnt work. but the guy at paia was VERY helpful.
	I sent it to him and he determined it was MY powersupply
	and all he charged was shipping back.

	I'm pleased. I'd buy a kit from them again.

	I also build the ring modulator...(15 years ago)
	I recall it was awkwardly laid out, but ok.

	Pete

Could it be that PAiA, like the rest of us, learns and improves with age? This
sounds more promising, but I'm still not too sure about the degree of "savvy"
required to read between the lines and/or do things the best way when building
such a kit; the time I should expect to take is also a big questionmark.

Maybe I'll give PAiA a buzz and see what they have to say. Sounds like they're
pretty decent support-wise, eh?

Cheers,
	Bob

	I built the vocoder some years ago and sold it to someone here.
	It worked ok.  It would work better with limiters on both voice
	and instrument, or compression.  You didn't have to tweak it
	except from the front panel,and it was fussy.  I have to believe
	that's basic to vocoders.  But you really have to build it to the
	directions for it to work correctly.  see the vocoder note.
tom