Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Anybody know anything more about the Tascam Studio-8?  I think it is in that
price range, has a built in mixer, has DBX, and uses 1/4" tape.  That's 
about all I know about it...

Todd.

    
    Tascam Studio 8:
    
    List price about 3000.
    Has a 12 channel mixer, two extra effects/aux buss
    1/4" tape, 7-1/2" reels only.
    Uses DBX, track 8 is inhibitable for tape synch
    Has an on-board "autolocator" but it sucks
    Has an optional autolocator that really works
    Does SMPTE if you buy the option
    Has meters! Nice ones, too. 
    I have used one, I was thinking about buying it. Nice machine, if
    you like the transport and mixer in one package.
    
    /pjh
    

Fostex makes a decent 8-track machine that uses quarter inch 
tape. Back when I only had a 4-track, I went into another studio 
to do some recording - they used a Fostex 8-track and other 
low-end effects and we got a very nice quality tape out of the 
deal. No idea about cost, though. Call Daddy's if you want to 
find out the worst possible price for it. ;-) 

Of course, if you can afford to get Tascam, do it. I believe the 
Tascam 38 is around $2800 (at least, that was last year's price.)
It uses half-inch tape.

Or, you could save for another year, take out a second mortgage
on the home, and get an Otari! 

    I own a very lightly used Fostex A8LR, 1/4" tape, 15ips only, 
    Dolby 'C', switchable. $900. The latest 1/4" 8track from Fostex
    has all kinds of microprocessor controls for syncing to another
    deck, etc.. overkill.
    
    I'm very happy with the performance. As it gets light duty I'm not
    sure about maintenance, etc. It DOES require a multibus mixer -
    it only monitors either tape or incoming signal, NOT both. So you'd
    have to get at least an 8track multibus mixer.. but I'd recommend
    at least 12.
    
    karl moeller

    
    	Thanks for the info.  I think I *might* be able to sqeeze
    	up enough to get the Tascam.  I'll have to look into it.
    
    -Tom
    

    
    
    I checked out a Tascam 38 at Wurlitzers last week.  They gave me
    a price of $2100.  Or you could check the Want Advertiser.  There's
    usually one in there.
    
    Ralph
    
    

    ... OR you could check around and get a lightly-used FOSTEX for
    less than 1/2 of that, and use the rest for a fancy mixer, which
    you WILL need whichever deck you choose.
    
    .. I defy anyone to tell the difference in quality of recording..
    also consider that with the 38 there is NO noise reduction.. more
    cost.. also 1/2" tapes are much more expensive than 1/4".
    
    karl moeller

>    ... OR you could check around and get a lightly-used FOSTEX for
>    less than 1/2 of that, and use the rest for a fancy mixer, which
>    you WILL need whichever deck you choose.

Not true.  Reread the earlier replies on the Studio-8.  Built in mixer,
built in noise reduction.  Maybe you can even find one used.

Todd.

    
    Karl,
    
    You can't compare the A8 with any other 8 track machine, especially
    when it comes to price. For your *needs*, it may be just what you
    *want*. But it's just not in the same class as the 38 and better
    machines like the 5050SD.
    
    There's no way a 1/4" machine is going to equal a 1/2" machine,
    in any performance catagory, at the same tape speed. The only reason
    the A8 became a functional product was because of the Dolby C. Without
    it, the crosstalk would be unreal. Dolby's compression circuitry
    helps the situation. However, you're stuck with it. Your tape can
    only be used with another A8, whereas a tape made on the 38 can
    be played back on any 1/2" deck. The frquency response on the A8
    is 40-18KHz, no mention of deviations, whereas a 38 for example
    can go out to 22KHz. 
    
    I guess it comes down to what you want to spend and what you really
    need. If you want 8 tracks as cheap as possible then the A8 is fine,
    but for one who wants a real 8 track machine the 38 is the starting
    point, and you go upwards from there.
    
    I've never done an A/B test, and would love to do one.
    
    CdH
    

    Chris....
    
    How does Dolby C (or assumably B or dbx) eliminate or repress
    crosstalk?? I thought crosstalk was the 'bleed' between adjacent
    tracks and Dolby was used to repress residual tape hiss.
    
    I'm missing the connection.
    
    Edd

    o	..finding a used Studio-8. Good luck. they've been out what,
        a year ?
    
    o	the 'crosstalk' issue. How is the Studio-8 (15ips,1/4") superior
    	to the Fostex in this area ? Noise reduction method has nada
    	to do with crosstalk. Also, regarding crosstalk problems, one 
    	can guarantee stereo separation by staggering stereo pairs of 
    	tracks.. not adjacent, in other words. Of course a 1/2" tape 
    	will be superior ! However I decided to put my money
    	in instruments, not the tape deck, as the Fostex is as clean
    	as I could wish. 

o	'real' 8tracks vs. 'imitation' (I guess) 8tracks.. I don't know 
    	about you, but I have no contract requiring me to cut CDs right now.
    	I was ecstatic to find that I could get into REAL 8tracking
    	for under $1000. If you have lots'o disposable income, go for
    	it. Just remember me every time you spend $25-$40 for a reel
    	of 1/2" tape.
    
    karl

    I'll be selling my 3M 32-track digital recorder and mixer soon
    in order to upgrade... Price will be reasonable. (<$4K)
    
    Edd
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    What? This isn't FANTASY.NOTE?????????

< Note 968.12 by AQUA::ROST "Fast and bulbous, tight also" >
    
>I think that the reason the A8 has Dolby C is to guarantee good noise 
>performance; 
    
    I think so too; in fact, I'd bet that that's why "noise reduction
    systems" were invented.    
    
>    remember eight tracks on 1/4" tape is just like
>    four tracks on 1/8" tape, the good old (noisy) cassette.  Even at
>    15 ips, the narrow track  width limits noise and frequency response
>    performance.                                                     

    Yep, noisy and scratchy, like an old 78 RPM record. Who are you
    kidding ? Musician friends couldn't tell the difference between 
    one of my original Nakamichi Dolby B CASSETTE mixdowns and the
    same piece mixed via PCM to VCR. And, as a person who HAS done 
    sessions on both Tascam 38 and the Fostex, I tell you, short of 
    cutting a session for CD, the Fostex is a ... far...better...buy.   
    
>Maybe Fostex is deliberately setting maximum recorded level abnormally 
>low to reduce crosstalk, then adding the Dolby to improve the impaired 
>noise performance due to not recording at the MOL of the tape.

    .. Maybe Tascam is using EIA bass rolloff curves to prevent tape
    saturation, due to the inherent limitations of analog magnetic
    tape recording.
    
    .. Maybe ALL recording mediums require some kind of compromises.
    Maybe I should just drop this and leave you to your expensive
    opinions.
    
    karl
    

    A friend of mine has an A8, he likes it alot with some reservations.
    They have had serious trouble with the tape transport mechanism.
    When they called Fostex the problem was well known. Fostex however,
    was of very little help to them, it was a design problem. I assume
    it has been fixed in the newer models. When they began planning
    to upgrade their studio Fostex was not considered.
    
    The fostex does not perform as well as the 38 if the 38 has the
    dbx noise reduction unit in my humble, expensive opinion. The
    difference in noise was noticeable, but actual mileage may vary according
    to your recording habits.
    
    dave

    A Tascam 38 with dbx has incredible s/n - like 94 db.  The only
    noise you will hear went on the tape with the source signal.  It
    also has a lot of headroom as a consequence.  If you shop around,
    you can get a new 38 w/dbx for around $2600.  The Tascam dbx unit is
    nice because it switches mode as a function of what you're telling
    the deck to do (e.g., if you tell the deck "record on tracks 3 and
    4", it tells the dbx "decode on 1 and 2, encode on 3 and 4, decode
    on 5 through 8".  This may sound like a luxury until you've screwed
    up an important master in the wee hours of the morning.  But then
    again, maybe you never make any mistakes.
    
    I would not expect a un-noise-reduced Fostex to compete with a dbx-ed
    38 anymore than I would a un-dbx-ed 38.  That's just not a fair
    comparison.
    
    A 38's capstan bearing will die if you run it a lot (ask Dave Dreher).
    I've used mine a lot, but I got into the habit of slacking the reels
    so the capstan motor shuts down when I'm not actually moving tape.
    
    I've never regretted putting up the bucks for a 38.  But it is
    an expensive proposition for a 38, 8 channels of dbx and a 16 channel
    board to feed it.  I maintain it myself (clean and demag) at
    essentially no cost.  Tape *is* expensive, but reusable.
                                             
    len.
    

I purchased the new Fostex M-80 8 track machine at Daddy's in Nashua last
month.

price: $1995.00 (no tax)
warranty: factory 1 yr. parts/labor, Daddy's additional 6 mos.
options: remote control $65.00  remote punch-in pedal $45.00
         two 10'  8-line snakes, $35.00
tape: Ampex 7 inch reel 1/4" tapes, 1200ft. 1.5 mil
      (recommended by Fostex) $8 each
      This unit will not take larger reels. I got the tapes at reduced price
      since I bought the M-80 there. Normally they are $9.95, but could be had
      by mail order for about $7.
features:
      LED VUs (very fast and accurate, great for recording drums)
      8 input jacks, 8 output jacks (this is nice, no access required to rear)
      optional SMPTE and sync to tape
      magnetic shield over recording head
      15 ips recording speed
      built-in Dolby-C

I have not had any problems with inter-track cross talk. I usually lay out
the tracks (just to be on the safe side) as follows:

Track     Instrument
-----     ----------
1         Drum Machine (LEFT)
2         Drum Machine (RIGHT)
3         Bass
4         Special Effects, Keyboards (LEFT), Guitar (LEFT), other
5         Keyboards (RIGHT), other
6         Guitar (RIGHT)
7         Background vocals
8         Lead Vocals

I have a number of friends who have the older Fostex M8, and they have had
no problems with transport mech., heads, cross-talk, etc. This machine is
great! Cleaning and demagnetizing are standard do-it-yourself.

Dave

>    the tracks (just to be on the safe side) as follows:
>Track     Instrument
>-----     ----------
>1         Drum Machine (LEFT)
>2         Drum Machine (RIGHT)
>3         Bass
>4         Special Effects, Keyboards (LEFT), Guitar (LEFT), other
>5         Keyboards (RIGHT), other
>6         Guitar (RIGHT)
>7         Background vocals
>8         Lead Vocals

    .. Dave, consider the following for MAX STEREO pair separation:
1 >1         Drum Machine (LEFT)
2 >3         Bass
3 >2         Drum Machine (RIGHT)
4 >4         Special Effects, Keyboards (LEFT), Guitar (LEFT), other
5 >7         Background vocals
6 >5         Keyboards (RIGHT), other
7 >8         Lead Vocals
8 >6         Guitar (RIGHT)
    
    .. karl

    
    Dolby is a companding system. It compresses the mid and high
    frequencies (Dolby C, B is just the highs) during recording to reduce
    the noise level. The signal itself is expanded during playback to
    restore frequency balance. dbx is similar except it works across
    the whole spectrum.
    
    This compression of the highs during recording is what helps the
    narrow format multitrack decks like the A8 reduce the crosstalk
    between tracks in that frequency band. Less energy, less bleed between
    tracks. Of course, it won't do a thing for keeping the kick drum
    out of your vocals.
    
    CdH
    

re: < Note 968.17 by LEDS::ORIN >

>tape: Ampex 7 inch reel 1/4" tapes, 1200ft. 1.5 mil
>      Normally they are $9.95, but could be had by mail order for about $7.

I assume this is Ampex 456.  I've been meaning to look for a mail order 
tape dealer.  Anbody know where I can get this tape? Sam Ash, etc.?

Thanks,

John

    re .20
    
    There's a shop in Boston near Berkley with bulk tapes of various
    flavors and widths.  Ampex 456 was @$6.00/roll last spring (1800ft?).
    
    The shop is on the side street west from Mass Ave and 1/2 block south
    of Boylston, about 50yds from the corner, tan building, south side of
    street.  Entrance on the side and a small or nonexistent sign.

    I believe they are only open weekdays.

    They also have beaucoup (>>100) cassette decks for 1 to 1 duping.

    Dave    

    CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING :
    
    I first purchased the Portastudio 144-Dolby B : well...
    Then used the 244 : Outstanding !
    Then a porta-One : practical is all there is to say about it.
    
    I now own a 38 with M216 16x4x2 mixer : ah ah.
    
    The 38 is a very good machine, maintenance is close to nil (boards
    all over the place) tape is a bit expensive but what do you expect ?
    
    Two basic problems : category and time.
    
    1. CATEGORY : Now that you have an 8-track machine and a good desk,
       you want to get better effects, digital delay and reverb, noise
       gates, dBX and what-not (MIKES !). See what I mean ? You have
       entered a brand new category in which everything is more expensive
       and you'll want to buy those things to take full advantage of
       the capabilities of your machine, similar to buying a Compaq Deskpro
       and running a true Word Processor and not a cheap text editor.
       Think about it : your budget becomes an ever-increasing monster.
       And the room ? If you're lucky to have a room reserved for your
       pleasure, you'll want to upgrade it to get better quality. And
       the monitors, and, and...
    
    With a 244, you pay for the thing and there isn't much else you
    need to buy, a $2000 budget for the whole setup will do. With a
    38, you'll have to invest at least $5000 to make it worthwile.
    
    2. TIME : How long does it take you to record a simple pop song
       on a cassette 4-track ? One day ? How long on an 8-track ? One
       week at least ! Because you have more effects, more tracks to mix down,
       you take more care in recording, etc, etc.
    
    I DECIDED TO SELL MY 8-TRACK STUDIO AND RETURN TO A 244 or equivalent.
    WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THE 38 ? HOPEFULLY (?) BETTER QUALITY RECORDINGS,
    BUT WHAT FOR, AND WHO FOR ? Just you ? Do you make money ?
    
    WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS :
    
    8 track is folly unless you're sure to make money with it.
    If you only wanna make demos, you don't need that, a producer or
    talent scout does not 8 tracks to form his opinion. If he tells
    you so, he's either a moron or a 0-). It's his job to provide studio
    facilities for you to record. Never pay for something you shouldn't
    pay for !
    
    Do I sound bitter ? I've a little experience of the music business
    and my conclusion is :
    
    ALWAYS DO WHAT YOU WANNA !
    NEVER PAY !
    NO COMPROMISE !
    
    Long live the 244 !
                                                                 
    Johnny French
     

    TAPE:
    
    
    The TAPE COMPLEX
    4 HAVILAND ST
    BOSTON, MA  02115
    TEL 437-9449
     
    You can have them mail it to you, but no COD.  They want a money
    order.
    
    I just bought 2 Ampex 456  1/2" format for $40.64/tape (this includes
    shipping) I recieved the tapes in one week.
    
    No complaints                 
    
    Mike

Just what is the best 1/4" tape?

I've been using Maxell XLI (1800', I think).

Can I do better?

Todd.

    There's a place in NJ that sells Ampex 456 10.5" reels of 1/2" tape
    for about $23 a reel in lots of 10 or 12.  I can provide details
    if anyone's interested.  This is by far the best price I have ever
    seen for 456 in this format, but you have to buy a lot of it.
    
    len.
    

    
    
    Len, can you give more details?  Is this a mail order outfit?
    Address, etc.  Would anybody be interested in going in on a 
    lot together?  I don't think I could shell out $230+ for tape
    right now, but 3 or 4 reels would be easier to swallow.
    
    Ralph
    
    

    
    Len, does the tape come with a Metal reel ? 
    
    $23 Wow thats cheap.
    
    Mike

    I thought there might be some interest.  I'll get the details and
    post them tomorrow.
    
    len.
    

    OK, here it is, not quite as wonderful as I supposed, but still
    pretty good.
    
    The outfit is American Musical Supply
    		  235 Franklin Ave.
                  Ridgewood, NJ  07450-3295
    
    Ampex Grand Master 456 tape, 1/2" x 2500' x 10 1/2"
    
    Part number 45612251; 7 reels per carton; per reel   -  $37.00;
                                              per carton - $230.00
    
    Shipping weight per reel   -  4 lbs.
                    per carton - 35 lbs.
                                        
    Shipping charges: east of Mississippi River   west of Mississippi River
                   
         4 lbs -           $2.60                       $2.60
        35 lbs -           $6.85                      $15.00
    
    Call (612) 796-2088 to order by phone.
    
    East of the Mississippi, that's a tad less than $33.83 per reel
    by the carton including shipping.  The $23/reel price was based
    on my misrecollection that there were 10 reels per carton.  Still,
    $34/reel is pretty good, $10 less than the local single reel price.
    
    Incidentally, 2500' at 15 ips is 33 minutes.
    
    len.
    

    
    
    
    Well I bought the Fostex M80 about 2 months ago and have found it O.K.
    so far. 
    
    Apart from the excellent sound and the number  of tracks (which I
    am still geting to grips with ) the best feature is the autoreplay
    mode which allows you to set 2 points on the track and have the
    machine shuttle between the 2 so that you can get 20 goes at that
    harmony part without hitting a button. Great for the one man studio.
               
                                                     
    						Paul.
    

re: .30

Steve's Quality Instruments in Danvers advertises the same tape for 
$30 a reel, and you don't even have to mail order it.

I've never bought there, but I've seen the ads in local publications 
like the Beat.

-Dan

    I have a question about the Fostex A8.  I have read these notes
    and a few folks have said that A8 is alright.  I have seen used
    A8s for around $1k.  My question, is this a good buy or not?
    
    I have little $ and want an 8 track, from what I have seen this
    is about my only option.  I can't really go over this price.
    
    1. Is there anything missing in this machine that will become a
       real drag in the future?  Is it something I can live with?
    
    2. How do I keep from getting burned when buying a used deck?
    
    3. Are there any other options for decks in this price range?
    
    4. Is the noise reduction defeatable - should I care in this case?
    
    Thanks for any help at all,
    
    Tim 
       - Oops, I guess I had more than one question...

    As the most vociferous advocate of Fostex 8 tracks...
    
>1. Is there anything missing in this machine that will become a
>real drag in the future?  Is it something I can live with?
 
    There are two versions of the A8.. the original A8 with 4 inputs/
    two busses, and the A8LR, 8 discrete inputs. One pain I suffer
    is that you can't monitor both already-recorded trax and the
    new signal unless you're in record mode with the tape rolling..
    requires (although I've gotten around it) a multibus mixer
    - each mixer channel selectable between tape out and instrument
    in.   
>2. How do I keep from getting burned when buying a used deck?

    CHECK THE HEAD for wear.. also run a tape normal speed, listen for
    bearing noise.. fast fwd/reverse, stop, see how it stops (brakes!)
    jerky will stretch or break a tape. These machines have been around
    a while, so service should not be an issue. There *is* sometimes
    an issue around a plastic drive gear, easily replaced.   

>3. Are there any other options for decks in this price range?
    
    I've not seen ANY 8track machines in this price range used.
    
>4. Is the noise reduction defeatable - should I care in this case?
    
    Yes, you can switch the Dolby 'C' off for all tracks.. I wouldn't.

    Bottom line, I got an A8LR last January for about $1k. NO regrets.
    
    karl moeller

                          
   I would agree wholeheartedly with Karl. I am just not quite as vociferous
    as he is. I have now had my Fostsx(M80) for abour 4 months now and
    did in fact buy it after reading through past topics in this file.
    Without wanting to sound jingoistic I would put in a recomendation
    for the M80 over the A8 but for one reason only. The Autolcator
    shuttle unit. This allows you to set up 2 points on the tune you
    are recording and shuttle the transport between the two without
    touching a button. This for the single person studio is invaluable
    and had improved my vocal tracks (relatively of course) significantly.
    The second hand value of an M80 over here in the U.K. does not differ
    other than by the odd 200 pounds from the A8. I would consider it
    200 pounds well spent just for the shuttle transport.
    
                                        Paul.
    					                          
                                                    
                                                    

    About those notes a few back regarding Ampex 1/2" tape from American
    Musical Supply...
    
    I get their catalog and am considering ordering some.  The question
    I always run into is "Is there a noticable difference between the
    Scotch xxxx (can't remember the number but it's also in the AMS
    catalog) and the Ampex tape?"
    
    I've always bought the Scotch brand but not out of any loyalty.
    It's what has always been available when I've been in a store with
    a "spare" $45 and a desperate need for another reel of tape.
    
    Any opinions of Scotch vs. Ampex 1/2" tape?
    
    - John -