Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    	Well, the way *I'd* do it -
    
    1. Noise gate. Squelch_all that is not part of the performance.
    2. De-esser. Compress the S's.
    3. Compressor. Compress the whole thing.
    4. Delays, exciters and other processing. Operating on a more well
       behaved, constant amplitude signal.
    5. EQ. Lets you shut down frequency bands - and their noise - not
       needed for the particular recording.
    
    	This is one way to start. You may find that other arrangements
    are for suitable for you particular tastes. Dont forget that you
    may learn something by trying a different, even "unorthodox"
    approach.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    Pardon moi, but wouldn't you want to put he noise gate towards the
    end of the chain in order to squelch the noise inherent to all the
    other devices???
    
    Yes?
    
    Edd

RE < Note 958.2 by JAWS::COTE "Hollywood! I know your middle name!" >

	I've thought the same thing - put the noise gate at the end.  But one 
thing I noticed most of all - even with the HUSH unit (which is supposed to
work better than a std. noise gate) was that it had a detrimental effect on
some of the affects - especially a delay line.  It would draw an unnatural
snuffing out of the fading echos.

	Perhaps that is why an EQ at the end is a better option?

	Dan

    ... in which case I'd guess you'd want to put the delay line last,
    with the gate right before it. It seems pretty obvious what happened
    to you echoes.
    
    Sorry, I just can't see putting the gate BEFORE all the noisy
    stomp boxes. Joe, can you elucidate your methodology??? (Oh gahd,
    the marketeers got me....)
    
    Edd

< Note 958.4 by JAWS::COTE "Hollywood! I know your middle name!" >

>    It seems pretty obvious what happened to you echoes.

	O.K., I may be a low-life, but I'm not a pedestrian.  

	I will defend my statement only by saying that it was my delay line that
was (and is) the noisiest part of my chain (a DOD analog that, I suspect, was 
part of Joshua's brass patch at the Jericho stadium).
    
	Dan

    What I was saying was that your echoes eventually went below the
    floor of the gate and got squished....
    
    Sometimes we low-budget technoids just gotta make compromises.
    I hate it when I do that.
    
    EEdd

    
    Definitely compress first, gate last, unless there are dynamic range
    enhanceing devices like Aphex or expanders, then put them after
    the compressor and the gate, otherwise you'll tear your hair out
    trying to set up the gate's threshold to downward expand smoothly.
    
    That's been my experience, anyway.
    
    CdH
    

    One of the questions no one addressed yet was: Is there an audible
    difference by putting, for example, the delay after the distortion
    box?
    
    I have found that there is a definite difference if you flange a
    distorted guitar versus distorting a flanged guitar.  The position
    in the chain definitely affects (effects?) the sound, so it depends
    on the sound you are looking for.  Try it both ways and see which
    sounds best..
    
    		Derek

    	Re why -            
    
    	I was thinking in terms of a microphone and the problems I've
    been having in my studio: the vocal mikes pick up everything else
    too, besides the vocals. This leads to a double path for some inputs
    to the mixer, i.e. you cant turn down the guitar with the guitar
    channel slide, cause it's coming thru all the mikes too. By squelching
    all vocal mikes with a noise gate, all the noise (that which is
    not coming from the singers mouth 2" away from the mic) goes away.
    Hopefully.            
    
    	The drums are really bad at doing this; I have the kit in another
    room and they are soo loud I can still hear them thru the walls,
    thru the headphone cushions - just as loud as when the
    left/tom/kick/right slides are in their "mix" positions. Does not
    make for an easy time of mixing the drums with the rest of the band.
    
    	The second to last device in my chain *is* a noise gate of sorts,
    a Phase Linear autocorrelator. The last is the Graphic EQ. Both
    have "defeat" switches. I've yet to buy/build noise gates for the
    vocal mikes. Sure would be nice if my mixer had a DBX type
    (Ratio/Threshold) type compressor - for each channel! I do compress
    the board output for recording and recommend it. There's a couple
    of DBX "1bx" type units in the want ad right now - at $50 each.
    Hurry, before I add a backup unit to my collection...
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    I can think of a couple of solutions:
    	
    	1) Are you using cardiod or supercardioid mikes? If not, get
    		some.  If so, make sure they are switched to "max
		directional" mode (some can be switched between cardioid
    		and omni or bow-tie modes).
    	
    	2) Position the vocalists, mikes, monitors and drum kit as follows:
    
    		Voc. <--mike                   monitors   WALL  Drums
    
    		This worked well for us (with no drum KIT but a drum
    		machine playing on the monitors)
    	
    	3) Make sure you know which way the cardiod mike pattern really
    		points.  Take a few minutes and do an experiment to
    		determine it.  It's not well marked on a lot of mikes,
    		and incorrectly marked on a few!
    	
    	4) Techie Mode:  Put the drum kit in (1) someone elses basement,
    		run 100' of low-z wire to a local mixing board just
    		for the drums,  or (2) sample the drums and teach your
    		drummer to play an Octapad or two, or (3) soundproof
    		the wall better.  Hang floor-to-ceiling lead foil, cover
    		ceiling with same, floor likewise, plus Sonex everywhere.
    		Or egg-crate foam.  Or real egg-crates.   Put an old
    		mattress over the doorway.  Put weatherstripping on
    		the doorway.  
    	
    	5) Silly mode:  Fill the drummer room with shaving cream, sawdust,
    		flour, wood shavings, autumn leaf-fall, lawnmower
    		clippings.  Have the drummer play at his own home, 
    		use a telephone link-up.  Hide the drummer and kit in
    		a camping tent, then put fifty or so sleeping bags,
    		blankets, pillows, etc. over the entire tent.  
    		Leave a bucket of icewater inside to keep drummer from
    		fainting from the heat....
    						:-)
    	

    I've found that the best solution is to not record anything at all.
    That way you avoid knowing anything at all about all those ugly effects
    which are useless for doing anything except grabbing an FM listener by
    the short hair when your stuff is played on the radio.
    
    And better still, you can spend your money adding new capabilities
    to your setup, and not stimulating the inside of your mouth.
    
    Steph
    

    
    Re: Joe Jas
    
    The dbx 1bx is a dynamic range expander, not a compander like the
    118/122 etc. It won't work as a compressor.
    
    CdH
    

    One way to solve the drums problem is to use a drum machine.  NOt
    as much fun, but definitely more manageable.
    
    Also, the order of effects should not make a difference for linear
    effects.  Nonlinear effects (e.g., distortion) will do different
    things in different places.  Compressors are also nonlinear.  EQ,
    echo, delay (w/o modulation) and reverb (not gated) are also linear.
    I think chorus is nonlinear, as is gated reverb.  A noise gate is
    also nonlinear, but I agree it should go at the next to last position
    (before the reverb, which should be last, so as to cover up a multitude
    of sins).
    
    len.