Conference napalm::commusic_v1

	I'd like to be first at bat with a question that came immediately upon
my first listen to the tape.

	How do you all keep the noise level low?

	I read once, earlier in this conference, that my deck, the X15, is known
for a very low-level output, thus incurring additional noise.  Yet, when I 
compare Peter Laquerre's pieces with my own, there seems to be a world of 
difference in voice clarity.  Peter's pices were *so* clear!

	I run my instruments through a mixer (PV 600S) in order to a) mix 
more than one voice on a single track and b) to add reverb.  Since, in most 
cases, especially with the availability of sequencing the basic parts for the 
first track, I will want to be able to combine voices, I don't have much of an 
alternative to avoid the mixer.  The only answer there is to get a quieter 
mixing board.

	BUT, I *was* wondering how many of you used reverb in the recording
process.  Do you;

	1)  Record the instruments DRY and add effects upon mixdown or pre-
		mixdowns?
	2)  Record using the amount of reverb you plan the individual voices
		to have in the final mix?
	3)  Some combination of the above?
	4)  None of the above.

	Are there any other single devices or techniques that any of you employ
that you have found singularly helpful in the recording process to keep the 
noise floor at a minimum?

	Also, to X15 users, do you have any particular way of dealing with the
low level of output?

	Dan

    Some general remarks.
    
    The battle is noise vs. distortion.  The lower the levels, the higher
    the noise and the lower the distortion; the higher the levels, the
    lower the noise and the higher the distortion.
    
    So the issue becomes which do you find more offensive; noise or
    distortion?
    
    Me, I find distortion more offensive.  Noise will be masked by the
    music, whereas distortion changes the timbres.  I'm assuming that
    the noise is not so bad that it "interferes".  Noise can be noticeable
    without interfering, but to my ears if the distortion is audible
    it is interfering.  For the noise to really get objectionable the
    levels would have to be ridiculously low.  Noise is much worse
    through headphones, but then the distortion is much much worse.
    It becomes obvious how limited cassettes are when you listen to
    them through headphones.  Still, the medium is amazing considering
    (4 tracks (2 each direction) on 1/8" wide tape moving at 1 7/8 ips!). 
    DAT will be deliverance from all this.
    
    OK, where does noise come from?  It's inherent in the recording
    process.  Each overdub/bounce will add more noise, but not as much
    distortion (unless you're pegging the meters).
    
    So, I'm not obsessive about hot levels.  I'll leave a little more
    headroom, accept a little more noise, and avoid distortion.
    
    Of course, with my dbx-ed 8 track, noise is not so much of an issue
    for me as it is on a 4 track cassette.  This may change your
    perspective.  But I mix down to cassette like everyone else, and
    if I drive the mixdown with too hot a signal I have a low noise
    high distortion cassette.  I'd rather a moderate noise low distortion
    cassette.
    
    My impression of the tape (one passed through my hands on the way
    to the anonymous submitter, as I mastered the anonymous submission
    for its composer - see the forthcoming liner notes) is that distortion
    is more of a problem than noise.  In no case did I find the noise
    levels objectionable; in many instances I found the distortion
    objectionable.
    
    Another thing to remember is that no matter how you cut it, the
    copy of a COMMUSIC N tape that gets to an end-user's hands is going
    to be 4th generation:
    
    	generation	medium
    
    	   1st		multitrack tape
    	   2nd		submission mixdown
    	   3rd 		compilation master
    	   4th		end user copy
    
    The compilation masters are usually pretty high quality (e.g., VCR),
    and don't add a whole lot of noise or distortion.  It's the at least
    two copies to cassette that cause the trouble.  Multigeneration
    cassettes degenerate pretty quickly.
                  
    Regarding application of reverb; contrary to normal practice, I
    apply effects at multitrack time.  This allows me to reuse a variety
    of effects differently on each track.  If I had 8 choruses and 8
    reverbs and 8 compressors etc., then I would apply effects at mixdown.
    I have almost never regretted this.
                                        
    len.
    

    When I mixdown from the multitrack F15 recording to a tape deck
    I have a graphic equalizer in between.  The equalizer lets me increase
    all the levels and reduce some of the noise at the same time.  I
    can even improve the quality of a lousey original using the method.
    
    	-Paul "Just getting started in COMMUSIC" 

    
    It's true that the X-15 has a low-output problem.  When mixing down
    to the stereo cassette deck I have to push the recording level up
    pretty high on the stereo deck to get a decent recording.
    
    As for my contributions, the a capella song has some problems with
    distortion--and it became more apparent once it was copied to
    Dave's VCR and mastered.  I don't think that distortion came from
    setting the recording levels too high--I think it came from my overdubbing
    one too many times trying to fix the individual vocal parts.  I've
    got to be a lot more careful about that.  
    
    As for the "clearness" of my other vocal tracks, I don't use any
    reverb, but as I mentioned in my liner notes, I've learned to use my
    stereo tape deck settings. The Nakamichi I have has a 70u and 120u
    setting as well as three other tape buttons (SX, ZX, and EX).  I'm not
    exactly sure what they do, but depending on how these are set I can
    make a much clearer, crisper recording than I used to. 
    
    Dan:  Funny thing is, I thought the reverb on your vocals sounded
    great. I thought mine weren't as clear as yours!  But then, maybe
    that's my way of justifying to my wife that I NEED a reverb...as well
    as drum machine...as well as a... 
    
    Peter
    

    
     
    RE. Note 946.2 by Peter Laquerre 

    
>   I see in reading the liner notes that Andrew used a TR505, which
>   I'm in the market for.  How much time did you spend programming
>   the 505 for that song?  

    
    I can't really remember  how much time I spent on the drum programming
    for that song because it was quite a while ago. Perhaps about
    half an hour or so. It's an iterative thing really - because it's
    all sequenced, I tend to do a little bit more to it each time I
    go back rather than finish the whole song in one session. I also
    cheat alot and use the factory programmed patterns where I can.
    I was really pleased with the 505 until I saw Paul Kents Korg.
    
    
    Andrew
    

RE all

	Thanks to all for the suggestions.  I think Len's evaluation of noise
vs. distortion is a very useful one.  I may have come to expect a higher level 
of sound quality than the cassette medium (and the X15, at that) is able to
deliver.

	Peter, the main reason why I mentioned reverb is not so much due to the
amount of it (though I know I tend to use too much of it), but rather the 
additional noise it carries into the production.  I liked the freshness of your 
pieces due to the *lack* of reverb!  I'd like to use a little more restraint in
the future regarding reverb and see if I can't clean things up a little.

	Are there any general rules of thumb regarding reverb?  Do certain 
instruments, by nature, assume a higher amount than others?  Does a bass
preclude no reverb?  Does the solo instrument or voice expect a lesser amount 
for emphasis or is it the other way around?  On the other hand, is this mostly 
subjective and a matter of style?  I'm very new to sitting behind a mixing 
board.

	One other point brought up here that is worth reiteration:  The mixdown
deck.  I was never able to scrape together enough money to get a really good 
deck, so that may have some bearing on the noise level as well.  I did these
on an Akai unit (don't remember the model number) that I bough in the beginning
of the year for a little over $100.  It seems like a good deck, but, no doubt, 
it doesn't stand up well beside a Nak.

	Dan

    
    Hi, Dan I also use a Peavey 600S and that verb is *noisy*.
    
    First thing I do is to roll off the low end with the reverb contour
    knob...all the way counterclockwise.  That gets rid of rumbling
    from low frequency stuff.
    
    Another trick is to pre-EQ the verb.
    
    To do this on a 600S, turn up the monitor level on the channels
    you are working with, run the main monitor out into an EQ, take
    the output of the EQ and feed this into the effects in jack meant
    for slaving mixers (*not* the effects return).  Also, the effects
    sends on the channels should be *off*.  The only hassle is that
    if you do fades, you have to fade the effects separately, because the
    monitor send is pre-fader.  Also, the channel EQ settings do not
    feed the monitor circuit and therefore don't feed the reverb.
    
    Another way to EQ the reverb if recording only one track at a time
    (i.e. mono) is to pan the reverb to output A and the main mix to
    output B.  You can use the output A master EQs at 50 Hz and 10KHz
    to tweak; then patch output A into a spare input.  You can then
    tweak with the channel EQ at 100 Hz and 5KHz;  make sure you don't
    turn up the effectspot on this input or you will get some nice
    feedback! This gives you a four band EQ-ed verb with no exteranl
    boxes and only one patch cord!
       
    If that doesn't make sense, call me.
    
    BTW I have the manual for that mixer; if there are some features
    you haven't figured out quite yet I can copy it for you.
    
    As far as the amount of verb, my rule of thumb:
    
    1. Anything recorded direct to the board needs some reverb, even
    a bass.
    
    2. Vocals and solo instruments need more than the rhythm section.
    Too much verb on bass and drums causes muddiness.
    
    3. When listening to individual parts, you should always hear *too
    much* reverb; when you mix down, some of that reverb will be masked.
       
    Of course, what do I know???  :-)  :-)  :-)
    
                                                         
    

    FWIW - On my recordings I use a Radio Shack resistor box to mix
    the stuff.  It's linear and introduces zero noise, but must be
    contributing to distortion in a big way.  For my purposes, it's
    okay and amounts to a $20 mixer.
    
    Steve

    
    Oh, yeah, in .6 Dan mentioned using a cheap cassette deck for mixdown.
    
    Use the best tape you can find for your deck...usually a metal type.
    
    Try a couple of brands and figure out which sounds best to you....
    then stick to that tape type!!!
                                          
    

RE < Note 950.7 by AQUA::ROST >

	Wow, some great suggestions for the Peavey 600S!!  Are these outlined
in the manual, or did you pick them up on your own?  I'd love to get a copy of
the it!!  There are so many jacks and such on the back that I have *no idea*
what they're there for.  I bought the board used, and though it's not in very
good shape cosmetically, for my first real mixing board I'm pretty satisfied.
Did you get the specs for the center frequncies of the various EQ knobs from the
manual?  Great stuff to know!

>    Another trick is to pre-EQ the verb.

	You mentioned having to fade the effects separately.  Couldn't this be 
done simply by fading the main monitor fader?  If so, that shouldn't be to hard.

	Egad! The things you are saying on different ways to use the board make
me feel like I have a whole new instrument!

	You mentioned that one should always here too much reverb on individual
channels and that that will be masked upon mixdown.  Somehow, it would seem to
me that too much on individual parts would make the overall more muddy.  Care
to explain why you said that?

	I really appreciate these suggestions.  Keep it up!

	Dan

RE < Note 950.8 by ECADSR::SHERMAN >

	Is that the box that goes for around $24.95 and has a switch to make
its two outputs either L and R or both mono?  I have one of those.  I bought it
before I had a board and had to input four instruments into an amp that had
only two inputs.  It still seems like a good deal for the money.

	I have to agree that it works well for you.  I didn't notice 
undue distortion or noise in your pieces at all.  Good use of inexpensive
equipment!

	Dan

    re: .11
    
    This box is a little black box with about six or so switches on the front.
    It was designed to interface a stereo system with up to three tape
    decks.  The switches control hookups between tape deck inputs and
    outputs.  (Gee, thanks for the compliment!)
    
    Steve

    re .8, .11, .12 - if it's just a passive component (just switches
    and resistors) it won't introduce any distortion (well, switch contacts
    (and solder joints) can in pathological situations behave like diodes,
    which are rather nonlinear and can thus introduce distortion). 
    Resistors, on the other hand *will* introduce a smidgen of thermal
    noise (in fact, a cheap noise generator is just a noisy resistor
    feeding a high gain amplifier!).
    
    len.
      

The pan reviews are starting to come in.
I don't mind Len's review, since I didn't put out any effort for this 
commusic tape; the contribution was by way of socializing with you guys.
I did it in a couple hours in a hurry.  I save the good stuff for performances.
I did this for fun.

What does the ending of "Day in the Life" sound like?  I don't think I every
heard it.  Is it Beethoven, too?  

I used a dbx stereo 1/4" dec for the initial recording of the symphony
on my out of tune piano with a PZM micro inside the piano.  Then overdubbed 
and bounced four folds through the SPX/Digitech in series.
The only junk heap stuff was the PAiA mixer.
and maybe the sony 758.
Tom

    A few comments..
    
    I was counting tape generations on my fingers as I was listening
    to my COMMUSIC III contribution, and came to FIVE, not four, as
    len suggests.. I didn't make a special-to-submission tape stereo
    mix, but copied my stereo master mix. (Nakamichi 600 to Nakamichi
    1000..)
    
    On recording noise: one tip that someone in this conference gave
    me was to avoid mixer noise as much as possible by attention to
    the fader settings.. If you have a 4 or 6-in mixer, stereo (or mono)
    out, you have two choices: input lev low/output high, or input high,
    output low.. due to 'summing noise' it's FAR cleaner to have your
    input faders fairly high (7 out of 10) and have the output fader
    set low... this apparently minimizes the noise inherent in each
    mixer channel.
    
    karl moeller

    Karl's right about fader settings.  Another thing I do is take every
    input channel that's not contributing to the output off the buss.
    Listening to my board (a Tascam 216) through headphones, you can
    hear the noise floor come up as you switch each channel onto the
    output busses with the channel faders at nominal position.  I know you
    guys with 4 track cassettes find it hard to sympathize with me and
    my 16 channel board and dbx-ed 8 track 15 ips 1/2" machine, but
    the 216's a noisy little bugger...  Another problem is residual
    hum and noise from the synths (the MIDIBass is a real hummer), and
    clock noise from the digital effects.  I had to rearrange my MKS-80
    rack because clock noise from the programmer was being picked up
    by the RCE-10 choruses.  Looks like it's time to invest in some
    good noise gates.  And a quieter board.  16 channels isn't quite
    enough anymore...  24 channels with an outboard power supply, here
    I come...
                                                                      
    len.
    

RE < Note 950.16 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >

>    by the RCE-10 choruses.  Looks like it's time to invest in some
>    good noise gates.  And a quieter board.  16 channels isn't quite
>    enough anymore...  24 channels with an outboard power supply, here
>    I come...
    
	Hey, Len, I'd be glad to tow the nasty old board away...

	Dan

    Uhm,  you don't understand; getting the 24 channel board will allow
    me to use the 216 as a submix...
    
    len.
    

    
    
    
    OAP         = Old Age Pensioner ie Retiree, OLD person
    Brian       = Third party living in the UK
    Infatuation = Concern about life in the UK