Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    What's the status of the S-10?
    
    Zat goin' by the wayside too, or are they keeping it in production?
                                             
    Eff

    
    
    Hey "Eff" is that just a name change or a sex change, too?
             
    
    8^)
    
    	8^)
    
    		8^)

    Oops, forry about that. I've been pravtiving my touch-typinh anf
    it appears I have a bit work work to fo!!!
    
    Mr. Cote

    Hmm.  What do you mean by multi-timbral?  I thought that it already
    was.  Or does it only do multi-sampling but receive only on a single
    MIDI channel.
    
    Even so, you could, assuming it receives on only a single channel,
    you could get a 2.6 octave (32 notes) range per sample (it has four)
    if it can cope with all 128 note numbers.  What kind of sample editing
    does it have?
    
    The biggest problem witht that thing is the *#$@^$@ ``quick-disks''.
    Who needs another medium.  Then again, you could buy four MKSs
    for the price of a ``professional'' sampler.

    A friend of mine has an S-10. (He's a very occasional noter in here.)
    
    I got a chance to play with it for a little. Sampling is easy. I,
    quite frankly, was impressed. (Not so much that I'd dump the Mirage
    for it, though).
    
    The user interface is as good as the Mirage. (Read: "Uck") The factory
    samples were by and large, clean and accurate. As to whether an
    end-user could duplicate them without computer graphics, I dunno.
    
    The Q-discs, as I remember, held one sample per side, quite a let
    down considering I can stuff 24 (best case, 6 nominal) on a Mirage
    3.5.
    
    I'd recommend taking a good look at the MKS-100, if you're in the
    market for a (cheap) sampler. What else can you get under $500?
    An SK-1?
    
    Edd (hoping the owner of the S-10 will come forth an enlighten us)
    
    
    

    The S-10 can hold 4 samples at one time but only receive on one
    MIDI channel. You can split the keyboard in four. The MKS-100
    have a mono mode which allows it to receive on eight MIDI channels
    at one time, spesially usefull for MIDI guitarists according to
    Roland. 
    
    As for the Quick Disks, I dont have any problems with them.
    You can easily get empty ones, a bit expensive though.
    Already they are used by Akai, Roland and Yamaha for different
    products.
    
    Svein.
    

RE < Note 905.4 by MAY20::BAILEY "Surly to bed and surly to rise..." >

	Please excuse the sparseness of my opening note.  I was merely parroting
what the salesman at LaSalle's said to me as I was leaving.  While I feel
LaSalle's is probably the most competitive store in the area, some of their
salesmen leave a bit to be desired.  The most intelligent thing he said to
me during my visit was that I looked surprisingly like his cousin.

	Dan

RE < Note 905.8 by AQUA::ROST "Are we having fun yet?" >
    
>    A couple of note back someone mentioned that the MKB-200 controller
>    can be had at LaSalle for $400, add the sampler for $500 and you
>    get an S-10 equivalent for $900????
    
>    Sounds interesting....

	Not really.  I would recommend if you're going to spend that close to
a grand, you might as well try to get a deal on a Mirage.  My opinion, FWIW.

	Dan

    I think if you're gonna spend ~$900 on a pseudo S-10 you could buy
    a real one for a few nickles more...
    
    The Mirage has at least one thing going for it. Installed user-base.
    Despite it's short comings, it's the *standard* in ~$1500 samplers.
    (yeah, I know the DSK is cheaper)
    
    Methinks the S-10 will never get the OEM support the Mirage has.
    
    Edd

    RE .6 I think Korg also uses quick disks for one of their products.
    
    If I'm not mistaken, their sequencer, the SQD whatever uses quick
    disks. Correct me if I'm wrong. Frankly, I'm surprised that, when
    you look, more manufacturers (than you think) are using quick disks
    after all. Hmmm....I still don't like them, but....under $500 for
    a *real* sampler (Sk1 doesn't count)...hmmm.... 

    I just figure since I have software archived on every medium from paper
    tape to RA60 packs, I don't really have any desire to add another
    obscure format, especially with such crappy density.  But I might bight
    the boellet. 
    
    When I listed to the S10 next to the S50, I was blown away by the S50,
    and found the S10 merely interesting.  Any intrinsic reason why this
    should be so?  (I know, because the salesman kicked in the four racks
    of outboard effects on the S50 so that I just couldn't keep my wallet
    in my pocket...)  All he could tell me was that there was a world of
    difference between the two machines.  But, I mean, geez, you can hardly
    go wrong for the price. 
    
    Anyone know the sample rates and durations?

	About the S-10, Jeff at Union said it's going to go away, too.

	Give me some help here, guys.  I think I'm going to give in and pick up
the MKS-100.  I've waited for such a long time for something that would give me 
the piano sound that I've longed for, and this is the first thing affordably
within my grasp.  This is how I see it;

	o	While the Q-disks may not be standard, they'll at least be 
	around for a while won't they?  Haven't some of you said they are being
	used elsewhere?

	o	Is it very important to have other manufacturers providing
	disks with samples on them?

	o	What does a Mirage rackmount go for these days?

	o	Any other considerations?

	Dan

	Oh, and one other important point;

	Yes, the S-10 and the MKS-100 are going away, but the replacement
rackmount MKS-220, will remain.  A clarification of this module;  one salesman
told me the only difference between it and the '100 is that the 220 contains
essentially two MKS-100.  That is, twice the memory, twice the voices...

	So, it seems that the MKS-100 *FORMAT* is not going away...

    Dan,
    
    Although the the Q-discs may be a 'mongrel' format, if you picked
    up a couple dozen you'd probably have unused discspace when your
    (whatever) finally gave up the ghost. Getting good samples is by
    no means easy (getting crappy samples is a piece o' cake!) and you
    may find yourself not sampling as often as you'd expect (or like).
    I don't think this is specific to the S-10, but ANY sampler...
    
    Roland does however, give away all their samples to S-10 (or S-50)
    owners. Free. Gratis. (To be fair, I've yet to pay for any sample
    on my Mirage. My local music store lets me copy anything I want
    if I'll show them how to do it.)
    
    The Mirage rackmount unit is in the $1000 ballpark. (Notice this
    is the same place the S-10 lives, but twice the price of the MKS-100.)
    
    There are lots of Mirage OEMs churning out samples. I've no idea
    what the marketplace is for S-10 stuff. I've seen no ads for samples
    in the back of KEYBOARD of ELECTRONIC MUSICIAN.
    
    The S-10 will be totally unsupported in n years. Balance that against
    the cost of a rack mount Mirage. Sure, EVERYTHING will be obsolete
    at some point. Maybe the MKS is just 'the ticket' to use for now.
    
    Summary: MKS be good for the short-term. Good, and cheap. Soon to
             be an also-ran...
    
             Mirage is a better, but more expensive, investment. More
             likely to be in use (and *supported*) than the S-10.
    
    Didn't help a bit, did it?
    
    Edd

RE < Note 905.15 by JAWS::COTE "Practice Safe Sysex" >

	Thanks, Edd for the quick response.

	As I said, the main reason I'd want the beast is for the piano sound I
can finally get.  I'm a pianist.  Synthesizers, I have found (much to the 
dismay of my empty wallet), have a very small place in my musical endeavors.
Perhaps once I really learn how to use them, this will change.  But even in
my recordings, except for one piece I tried to duplicate an orchestral piece
I wrote years ago, my music tends to come out like: Piano, guitar, drums, bass,
strings... and little more.  I haven't worked synthesizers into my style.  I
remain a singer accompanying myself with piano and use all the other instruments
(FB01, CZ101, JX8P...) to fill in the background.

	I say this because I'd mainly buy the MKS-100 for the piano a sampler 
affords.  There's very little else I'd do that wouldn't fall into the category 
of 'playing with a toy'.

	Another thing that is to be considered; I'm a yankee trader.  I don't 
mind getting one thing for a while, selling it off, getting something better.
A good example of this is the FB01.  It will probably be sold to cover the
cost of buying this unit.  I know that, if I really need another one, I can
always get it (probably for less than I bought this one for!).  So, in a year,
when I have extra money and the Mirage has gone down in price, I would feel no
qualms in selling the MKS to get it.  There's always someone in my current 
position that will jump for a deal on something used, and we both benefit.

	So, bottom line is this;  I want more than all else to be able to play
a real sounding piano.  This is the first time such a thing is with my economic
grasp.  I've listened to the piano sound (which is four samples spread accross 
the keyboard) and it's quite good (at least to my ears).  I have a touch 
sensitive keyboard, now, too.

	Excuse the rambling.  This was partly to answer Edd's question on 
priority, but it also helps me to get it clear in my own head.

	Dan

    Sounds like this deal was made for you!!!
    
    Edd

RE < Note 905.17 by JAWS::COTE >

>                               -< Go buy one... >-

	I did.



	Details tomorrow, when I've had time to play with it.

	Dan

    >      -< I always try to do what I'm told. >-
    
    Good!!! Give it to me!!!! :^)
    
    Edd

RE < Note 905.19 by JAWS::COTE >

	I tried, but I just couldn't.

	Well, little did I know when I openned this topic that it would have
such an 'autobiographical' bent to it.  I had not planned on buying any sampler
for some time, but, as I reviewed at length in a previous reply, I found in this
piece of equipment the ability to get a piano, and then some.

	I had some time to play with it last night.  I have a few impressions 
that I can share about this first encounter.

	First of all, not knowing if this is common among disk-loading keyboards
I'll say that one may have second thoughts about using this as a performance
oriented instrument if one were interested in it for a number of sounds to be
changed under any time pressure.  The best sounds I heard require all four 
memory locations to be loaded, and that takes two disks, with data on both 
sides.  Even those of 'nimble' fingers may find this an awkward task in a 
crunch.

	Secondly, on a more positive bent, the sounds are quite impressive (to 
my un-trained ears, anyway) and the procedure for simple loads and saves are
intuitively simple.  One nit, though, is found in the instructional alpha-screen
display - when loading a disk (or saving one, for that matter) the screen 
displays the instruction to change disks a bit BEFORE it is actually safe for
the drive (i.e., there is a little light that tells you when it's safe to
eject the QD).  Anyone familiar with disk drives may have no problem with this.
Thankfully, I found this out at the store, before I bought my unit.

	There are a number of special features that I don't believe were 
mentioned earlier.  It has the capability to cross fade samples based on
velocity from the keyboard.  It has a kind of 'delay' mechanism that can
repeat a note at any interval within an octave.  It has an arpegiator, which can
be set up to be clocked either by the MIDI clock, or by an external trigger
of most any kind (even a foot switch, or the pulses of a drum).  The arpegiator
may be set to up, down, up and down or random, assignable to upper and lower
octaves as well.

	There are considerable edit features for shaping the sampled sound 
itself, but I haven't gotten into that much, yet.  From my little play-attempts
at sampling last night, I can tell I have a lot to learn before I can get
quality sounds.  Maybe reading the manual will help 8^).

	That's about it off the top of my head.  As I learn more, I'll try to
post it here for those interested.

	Dan

Dan, can you tell us:

1.  How long it takes to load in one sample from a QD?

2.  How many audio outs does it have (mono, stereo, multioutput?)

3.  Do any presampled sound discs come with the unit?

4.  Maximum sampling time in memory?

5.  Resolution (10 or 12 bits?)


Todd (back from vacation and sick leave).

RE < Note 905.22 by BARNUM::RHODES >

>             -< I don't mean to make you read the manual, but... >-

	I've had worse demands made on me from time to time 8^).

> 1.  How long it takes to load in one sample from a QD?

	Haven't actually timed it (and the manual doesn't say).  I'd say a
single sample on a single side of a disk will take approx. 5 to 8 seconds to 
load.  Now remember many samples are loaded over more than one side of a disk.
The grand piano takes two disks, four sides.  Therfore you have to add the time
for each side to load, plus the time it takes to fumble with changing sides and
disks.

> 2.  How many audio outs does it have (mono, stereo, multioutput?)

	Only mono out 8^(.

> 3.  Do any presampled sound discs come with the unit?

	Yes, much to my surprise!  There were six disks.  One set of two was
a drum set consisting of kick, snare, tom, and a loosely closed hi-hat.  They
were suitably effected with the now-well-worn gated reverb applied.

	There was also a two-sided 'string section' sample, a two-sided chorus,
an orchestra 'hit' and a crash cymbal (both of these being single-memory 
samples).  All of these were from the standard Roland sample library and quite
usable.

> 4.  Maximum sampling time in memory?

	I believe the manual says that maximum sampling at 30khz is four 
seconds, and eight seconds at 15khz.  It's a bit unclear to me after reading
through the section on sampling, but then again, I'm completely new to sampling.

> 5.  Resolution (10 or 12 bits?)

	12 bit.  (Hey, I knew that one without reading the manual!)

	Dan

    Just for anybody interested note 564 also covers the S-10/MKS-100.
    
    Svein.
    

RE Note 905.24 

	I'll second that motion.  Topic 564 has just about everything you'd
ever want to know about the S-10/MKS-100 combination.  Great job, Svein.

	Another good reference is the FEB '87 issue of Keyboard review of the 
S-10.  There are no differences in software features, that I can detect, between
the keyboard version and the rack mount version.

	Dan
    

    Thanks for the tip on note 564. That note indicates that the MKS
    might have sysex MIDI messages that the S-10 doesn't. Is this true?
    Can you dump samples via MIDI?
    
    Rob

    What I thought to be impossible have just happened. My understanding
    was that it was not possible to dump the sample via MIDI from the
    S-10/MKS-100, but now it is here THE EDITOR FOR S-10/MKS-100.
    I dont know the price, but the add is from the french distributor
    of the Steinberg line (Pro 24). I dont think it is a Steinberg product.
    
    The program will let you make changes to the sample in the internal
    S-10 memory, you can work with the curves, zoom, set start and end
    points for sample, select loop. Change all parameters. It also allows
    you to store 11 samples on the 3,5 inch floppy compared to two on
    the QD's.
    
    The best of all (for me) the program is for the ATARI ST.
    
    Svein.
    

Just in case anyone is interested.

Daddy's Junky Music in Nashua is selling an S-10
complete with sound library for $595.00

This means you get the disks too, not just the right to
copy them.

FWIW

Chad

    
    A couple of weeks ago, I saw an MKS-100 in the Want Ads for $350.
    Was gone when I called, of course. I have heard that the MKS-100
    doesn't sound as good as the Mirage. Has anyone who's heard both that
    can verify or refute this? I thought the MKS-100 should sound at
    least as good, if only because of the 12-bit resolution. In any
    case $350 for a rackmount sampler is a good deal. Unfortunately,
    a good deal that got away. Edd Cote, you've heard both of these
    guys, whaddya think?? 
    
    Mike D
    
    

As I understand it, sound architecture wise  S10 = MKS100

Chad

    Yep, I've had both set up side by side in my studio. I'd give the
    edge to the Roland...
    
    But... Q-disks suck and there's not much of a library or vendor
    support...
    
    Edd

	And remember, it'll only store four sounds at a time, and it takes 
forever to load.

	Dan