Conference napalm::commusic_v1

	Not knowing the extent of your experience in music in general, let me
offer a couple of suggestions;

	Have you fiddled with the amplifier settings themselves?  Could it be 
your tone settings only allow for that thin sound?  I have a Juno 106, which
preceded the Juno 1 and I'm more than satisfied by the richness of tone.  Sure
it's not an Oberheim or a MemoryMoog, but for the price it's very satisfying.
Please excuse if this sounds elemental, but it could be in the amp and not in
the instrument itself.

	Secondly, a cheap alternative to getting another instrument to layer
the sounds together with (via the MIDI interface) would be to get add-on
effects devices.  Stomp boxes like a chorus, delay unit (analog or digital),
or such things go a long way to make an instrument sparkle.  These can be
purchased new at around the $100 range and used for about half that.

	But if you're REALLY intent on adding another instrument (MIDI), there
are a number of alternatives, starting at around $300 and sky-rocketing up to,
well, quite a ways.

	Dan

    
    I would suspect the amplifier.  A Gorilla is a pretty low-powered
    rig and designed primarily for bass guitar, practiced at low volumes.
    
    Try plugging into your stereo and listening with headphones.  You
    should be pleasantly surprised.  As far as playing over stereo
    speakers, there are dangers to your speakers if you play too loudly.
    This is mentioned in some other notes in this file.  Pointers, anyone?
                                                              
    

    The amp is very suspect.
    
    Gorilla amps are low cost amps intended to be low cost practice
    amps for guitar and bass.  For one thing, you probably have an
    impedance mis-match between your keyboard output and the amp input.
    
    There's a straightforward way to prove this.  Try and run the keyboard
    through a known good keyboard amp.  Does the keyboard have a headphone
    plug?  You could try that as well.  The headphone plug on
    my RD-300 doesn't do it justice because of a lack of bass, but
    otherwise would give someone a good impression of the sound quality.
    
    	db

    
    I have been following this conference for about a two months now
    without replying, so I pretty much have an idea of who basically
    knows their stuff.  I think the 3 gentlemen who responded here,
    are in my opinion, "resident experts" of this conference.
    
    In response to the amplifier.  I guess what makes this a keyboard
    amp is the fact that, as a bass amp, it has an open back, allowing
    for high notes?  It was a cheap alternative to having a keyboard
    and amp as opposed to just having a keyboard and waiting a long
    time for a better amp.  Maybe I should have waited, but I got a
    little impatient.
    
    So if my amp is sounding poor due to low power, does this mean that
    if I boosted power in the amp, the sound gets better?  Or does the
    poor sound get boosted also.  The amps control are bass, mid, treble,
    a bass switch which boosts the bass volume?, and a slapback switch,
    which I was told is for the slapback effects of bass.  When used
    with the keyboard, it almost resembles a "brightness" switch.  When
    this is on, notes get sharper and harsher.  Oh, and it also has
    a presence control.
    
    I am not considering another keyboard ( have to learn how to play
    this one first), so I would be interested in anything that adds effects.
    I saw a chorus footswitch in the music store, but it was for a guitar.
    Can those footswitches be used on keyboards also?
    
    So I am stuck with a cheap amp with poor sound.  Without getting
    another keyboard or amp, what may I get to first fatten the sound,
    and basically erase the thin output?  Add on effects or increase
    the amps power?  And would the "chorus" pedal be the one I want
    for thickening the sound?
    
    Thanks again guys :^) ...Tracy Fox_awake_while_you_sleep
    
    P.S.  I will be out until Tuesday evening, so I won't be able to
    respond immediately, but please be patient with me.

RE < Note 875.4 by HUB::OPERATOR >

>                            -< three good guys... >-

>    without replying, so I pretty much have an idea of who basically
>    knows their stuff.  I think the 3 gentlemen who responded here,
>    are in my opinion, "resident experts" of this conference.

	You made me laugh 8^).  I hang around here to get answers myself.  I
often feel like the 'pesty kid brother' in this conference because I'm always
asking questions about technical issues and with each answer I come back with
five more questions...  About the only thing I consider myself to have excelled
in is finding good deals for little amounts of money.  Why?  Because I don't
have much to spend!  I'm thankful to the *real* experts in this conference for 
stearing me towards the right equipment!

	Anyway, on to business.  I can't give you much advise about amp settings
because I'm just starting to learn about that stuff myself.  It seems to my ears
that there is a good balance to be achieved between proper EQ settings and 
between pre-amp gain and master (or amplifier) volume.  Just what those settings
are, I can't say.  I suggest doing a lot of 'fiddling' with your amp controls 
and not getting too frustrated when you don't get very far.  But when you *do*
find something that sounds good, get a piece of paper and copy it down for 
future reference.  You'll be glad you did.

	If your Juno is similar to mine, you'll be able to use guitar effects 
boxes with it.  Guitar effects are intended for low level signals to be sent
in to them.  Most synthesizers send a higher level signal than guitars.  BUT,
the Juno 106 has a switch on the back panel that allows you to send three 
different level signals.  If your Juno has this, check the manual for which
signal would most likely be used for a guitar amp and use that to input into
your effects device.  Otherwise, if you send too hot a signal, you end up 
possibly damaging something and getting a terrible sound.

	As far as which one to use, well...  The Junos have a built in chorus
already, but it is a preset one.  My Juno has two presets to choose from.  You
might try toggling between these two kinds of choruses before you by an outboard
one.  If you're unfamiliar with 'editing sounds', your manual will be your best
source of help at this point.

	I've found a delay unit to be one of the best things to add 'sparkle' to
the sound of a synthesizer.  You need to vary the amount of dealy and the number
of delays according to the needs of the moment, but, to me, having some kind
of 'echo' on a solo line makes it sound 100% better than going without it.  Try
one out sometime and see if you like it.

	Delays come in two types, analog and digital.  You can pick up an analog
quite reasonably these days (I bought one used for $40).  If all you're looking
for is something to add that undefinable 'something' to your sound, one of these
will be adequate.  If you're looking for something to do 'timed' echos with, a 
digital unit may be more what you're looking for.  That is because analog units
can only delay so long (less than half a second?)  whereas digital units are
capable of much longer delays and feed back a better sounding repeat.  Digital
units are much cleaner, giving less noise than analogs.  It's a trade-off of
price/performance.

	Well, I hope that helps.

	Dan

    One thing occurred to me about the amp.
    
    Does it have two volume controls?  If so, they would generally
    be labelled "volume" and "master volume".  If so, your problem
    might be caused by having the master volume too low and the volume
    too high.  This is what you generally do for guitars, but for keyboards
    you would want to master volume up high, and the volume down low.
    
    This setting has less preamp distortion.
    
    BTW, I don't claim to be an "expert".  There are some genuine experts
    in this file, but I'm not one of them.   I'm better described as
    "opinionated".
    
    I think you're priorities should be to VERIFY that it is the amp,
    and if so, a good amp should be your number one priority.
    
    Regarding effects, I would generally avoid getting "stomp boxes"
    (those effects that sit on the floor, use 9-volt batteries, and
    generally cost between $40 and $100):
    
    	1) The output of your synth may not match the inputs of the
    	   boxes, which are generally made for guitars which have a
    	   lower output.
    
    	2) They generally have poor audio quality
    
    	3) They generally are VERY noisey
    
    	4) You'd be better off getting one decent DDL than several of
    	   those boxes.  It would be:
    
    		a) Less expensive
    		b) Higher quality
    		c) Less noisey
    		d) Less messey (you don't need tons of extra patch cords)
    		f) Almost all good DDLs allow you to adjust the input
    		   gain so you can use them with anything (guitars,
    		   synths, etc.)
    		e) Less hassle.
    
    			you won't need to:
    
    			i) Unplug the boxes each time to keep the
    			   batteries from draining when you're not using
    			   it
    			ii) You won't have to be constantly feeding
    	  		    batteries to it
    
    One good DDL will do almost all of the standard delay-type effects
    (chorus, flange, phase shifting, vibrato, slapback echo, long echo,
    repeat, etc.)  You can get all this in ONE non-9-volt eating,
    non-noisey, high audio quality box for less money than you would
    spend on a couple of stomp boxes.
    
    	db

    I'm assuming that you have a Juno Alpha-1, right?  I have the rack
    mount analog of this, and I think it sounds bitchin', even next
    to my DX7 and RD200.  Your problem is almost definitely in the
    amp (unless something is broken).  I would advise strongly against
    ANY effects until you can get just the synth and the amp to sound
    good.  The Juno can be a very fat sounding synth (Try presets #A54,
    (fat synth) (lot's of treble, bordering on hiss) and #B27 (Dbl Bass)
    (sounds like Jaws music, mucho bass)).
    
    More power is not always what's needed to make an amp sound better
    but in your case you probably need more power and more speaker.
    40 watts is basically the minimum.  60-100 watts is usually plenty.
    
    For speakers, 10" is about the smallest driver you can get and expect
    gut shaking bass.  For real gut wrenching, you should go for something
    like a 12"-15".  With the bigger speakers, you also need a separate
    tweeter to get those blistering highs.
    
    Roland sells a resonable, cheap amp, called the Cube-40.  It has,
    a single driver (a 10" or a 12", I don't remember which), 40 watts
    of power, two separate signal inputs, treble mid and bass controls,
    and a reverb unit, which is useful for adding a degree of excitment
    to almost any sound.  A step up would be  something with a 12" horn
    and a tweeter and, say 60 or 80 watts.
    
    Above all, listen to what you want to buy.   Most stores carry your
    keyboard, but if not, it is small enough that you can take it to a
    store (or somebody's house) to check it out.  And be picky,
    since if it doesn't sound good in the store, it almost certainly isn't
    going to sound good at home. 
    
    If you don't like the taste of Spumanti, save until you can buy
    Dom Perignon (it will be well worth the wait, plus an amp lasts
    much longer than a bottle of either sparkling wine OR champagne.)
    
    Steph

    I've been sitting this one out so far, but I thought I'd finally
    throw in my two cents.
    
    First, a synth is just not going to sound good through any kind
    of guitar amp.  Even a bass amp.  What you want is a nice clean,
    wide frequency response.  You don't need gobs of power unlease you
    want to deafen your neighbors.
    
    With some caveats, your best bet may just be a small hifi system.
    The main caveat is the possibility of more bass output than your
    speakers can handle.
    
    Synths can sound radically different depending on the frequency
    response of the system you play them through.  I listen to cassette
    dubs of my stuff on three different systems (my studio monitors,
    my living room hifi system, and my car system) and the sound changes
    noticeably from system to system.  They sound best on my studio
    monitors.
    
    I don't agree that you need 40 watts minimum; I think you could
    get by just fine with 10 watts (for over a year I played my Juno
    106 though a 25 watt per channel integrated amp - it sounded terrific).
    
    I have two Roland amps (a Spirit 10 and a Spirit 50, the latter
    a bass amp) and the synths sound like s**t played through them.
    I use the Spirit 10 as a portable keyboard amp only in desperation.
    
    If you have the bucks, you might consider a small PA.
    
    Once you get the amp/synth combo sounding basically ok, the two
    effects you should consider first are reverb and chorus.  Reverb
    is probably more generally useful, and good digital reverbs have
    come down dramatically in price the past year.  Check out the Allesis
    MicroVerb for example.
    
    Stay away from pedal effects for keyboards - more of an issue for
    a chorus than a reverb.  I very highly recommend the Boss RCE-10
    digital chorus/ensemble, a nice little single height half width
    rack mountable unit.  Only problem is its price - in excess of $200.
    It is a stereo unit though, and has that Roland chorus sound (I
    have two RCE-10s and an older CE-300; I love 'em!).
             
    len.
    

    
    You can tell the really serious guys are getting involved now "".
    
    Re: all the previous responses. Did we ever establish what the use
    of the synsth in question was. If you are playing as part of a band
    then I would understand the a small amp might cause you problems.
    IF you are talking about home use only then I underwrite what Len
    said. I am currently driving my system with an Akai 25 watt hifi
    amp and 2 JBL control-1s which are about 8 inches by 6. They don't
    sound loud but the quality is good and certainly acceptable for
    home use.
    
    Re .-2 Yep I've noticed that everything sounds better after a bottle
    or two of Dom perignon.
    
                                        Paul.
    					
                                                                  

    You guys really are wonderful :^)
    I was tooo busy last last night to get in here, so I'll have to
    come back tonight and respond to all.
    But you're all terrific...thanks very much.
    
    BTW - Realizing the error of my ways, I should have stated...."...the
    3 who responded here are "among the" resident experts...
    
    Apologies to credential holders... :^)  (sigh) Men and modesty. :^)
    Tracy Fox_loves_musicians_and_music_and_this_notesfile

    Good morning, all.
    
    To cover some questions.  Yes, it is a Juno Alpha-1.  It does not
    have a switch for 3 different level signals, so I would not be able
    to set it to the closest level of guitar output to coincide with
    the amp.  But this Gorilla amp is specifically labeled as a
    BASS/KEYBOARD amp, which is the only reason I obtained it.  I love
    bass, and figured it would be able the bass end of the keyboard
    without "brapping".  This bass amp is not a fully enclosed cabinet.
    The top back half of the cabinet is open, this for keyboards.
    
    I certainly went straight for the "Dbl Bass" and "Fat Synth" patches,
    and it is these two I have in mind when I am saying the output
    is thin and unimpressive.  That is why I'm so heart-stricken.  It
    just appears that I have erred on my first choice of amps, and this
    is how I know...
    
    Yesterday, I walked into another music dealer and just about got
    bowled over by a solid wall of screaming lead guitar.  It was coming
    from the back of the store where several people were gathered,
    staring open-mouthed.  There was no guitar.  There was a Juno Alpha-1.
    Hence, the source of the screaming guitar.  It was connected to
    a Roland Jazz/Chorus Stereo amp, cost $650.00.  Connected to the
    amp was a Digital Delay/Chorus.  The sound was beyond words.
    
    I don't play in a band, I am starting a new home hobby.  But as
    a home hobbyist, I want to sound as near professional as possible
    or I won't hold on to this hobby for long.  Being the "dummy" as
    I am right now, I wasn't even aware you could drive the synth off
    of a 25-watt hi-fi amp and two speakers until reading your responses.
    
    I thank you again.  I think I will look into a new amp, after trying
    to sell the lemon I have now (yes, I know....Good Luck!)  I definitely
    WANT the amp I saw that day in the music store.  I will look into
    this BOSS RCE-10 also.
    
    Forgot.  My current amp does have two volume controls, but even
    following the dictates of what was suggested, it offered no 
    substantial improvement.
    
    You guys are very informative and helpful despite the disclaimers. :^)
                                                                          
    See you around...Tracy Fox

    re: .11
    
    Gee, in one of my replies I had typed in a recommendation for
    a Roland JC and then deleted it.  The reason why I deleted it was
    because that's what I have (a JC-120, which is almost certainly
    the model you heard yesterday) and I didn't want to sound biased.
    
    But I *do* think that the JC's are wonderful.  I use mine as BOTH
    a "clean" guitar amp (non-distorted sounds) AND as a keyboard amp
    at the same time (it has both low and hi imp. inputs for each channel).
    A pleasant surprise was that turning the volume down on the keyboard
    doesn't affect the guitar's volume or vice versa, the way it does
    when I was using my bass players amp.
    
    Furthermore, the JC-120 is probably the lightest and least obtrusive
    (size-wize) 120 watt source of power there is.
    
    One thing about buying a JC is don't be suckered in by the builtin
    chorus.  When you turn the chorus on it's like light breaking through
    the clouds.  It has a dramatic effect on the sound, and it's very
    impressive.   However, the main reason it sounds so good is because
    it's a TRUE stereo chorus.   You could get this same effect with
    a two amp setup (but of course you don't NEED to with the JC). 
    
    The main points are:
    
    	o You can get that sound other ways
    	o It won't record the way it "sounds"
    	o Don't evaluate what you run through (like the Juno) a JC-120
    	  in chorus mode based on what you hear.  It's sorting like
    	  adding MSG.  True stereo chorus will make ANYTHING sound better.
    	o Don't be fooled into thinking that it represents the tonal
    	  characteristics of the amp.
    
    It's a very sexy feature and I have no doubt that a lot of JC's
    are sold because of it.  But to me it's sorta like a speaker salesman
    trying to influence your decision among two kinds of speakers by
    playing the brand he wants you to buy slightly louder. (It's be
    scientifically demonstrated that most people think the LOUDER speaker
    sounds BETTER.
    
    	db

    In .2:
    
>    Try plugging into your stereo and listening with headphones.  You
>    should be pleasantly surprised.  As far as playing over stereo
>    speakers, there are dangers to your speakers if you play too loudly.
    
    I have a Juno-2, and I don't think it's thin-sounding at all. 
    
    I use Sony MDR-M77 headphones out the headphone jack on the back
    of the unit, or I connect to my stereo and play it out my Klipsch
    kg4's. These are particularly rugged speakers (I've blown up stereo
    speakers before, I learned). They're practically impossible to damage,
    and they sound *great*.
    				- HBM

    . . .for the JC-120.  I, like Dave, have been using mine for
    a couple of years both as a clean guitar amp and a keyboard
    amp for my Juno 106 and Ensoninq Mirage.  One added reason for
    my satisfaction is that the JC is a decent gigging amp as well,
    should you decide to move in that direction.  As it happens,
    I usually run direct to the board from the Juno and use the
    JC as a monitor, but the JC has more than enough power to
    stand on its own in small to medium rooms.
    
    Steve
    
    P.S.  re: "resident experts. . .gentlemen"  - "residents" and 
    "experts" there can be no doubt; but "gentlemen". . .?   :-D
    

    Hey, I eats wit my mouf closed!!!
    
    Edd