Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Dan,
    
    I don't have much to offer regarding stage monitors, but could
    you explain your personal_name?
    
    Was your son born twice?
    
    Edd

Dan,
Some of the major qualities of stage monitors are:
* they are more directional than other types of speakers
* they often have a more limited frequency response
* they have different cabinet configurations
* they often have level controls for the tweeter

re:directional
This is mostly to avoid feedback problems. It is also useful if you
have multiple monitor circuits, so that each person hears primarily his
own stuff.

re:freq. response
Although some monitors are completely full-range, a good vocal monitor
may have a limited range that emphasizes the human vocal range. A
full-range speaker can be a liability, since feedback problems are
increased, and since the vocalist may want to hear primarily himself,
rather than bass drums and cymbals (these other instrument sounds can
easily "get into" the monitor circuit when there are several live mics
on stage).

re:cabinetry
Stage monitors normally want to be as small as possible to avoid obstructing
the view, etc. Many have wierd geometric shapes that allow them to be placed
at all sorts of angles. My favorite type is the "wedgie" floor monitor.

re:tweeter control
This is a handy feature, since each monitor can be adjusted to suit each
vocalist. In general, the less tweeter the better, since it allows the
sound man to crank up the volume more without feedback.

re:"cross-stage" monitoring
I assume that you mean the same thing as "side-fill" monitoring. This is
a good concept, especially on a large stage. However, the side-fills will
typically have to be larger and more expensive than other monitors, since
they will probably not be very close to the performers. Plan on using
considerably more amplifier power, also.

re: small, personal monitors
These are very effective, but the performer must remain very close to them.
I think they are most practical for keyboard players, since they're not
going anywhere, anyway. Not recommended for lead vocalists, since they
often move around. Not great for drummers and guitarists, either, since
they won't hear the monitor over their power chords and drum-pounding 8^).

My first choice is medium-sized "wedgie" floor monitors. Give one to each
vocalist and keyboardist. A lead vocalist (ideally) should have a larger,
more efficient one.
In the past, I've used only 12 inch, 2-way wedgies, made by Cerwin-Vega,
Peavey, and P.A.S. If I was doing it again, I'd get one 15-incher for
the lead vocalist. I would also plan on a dual 200 watt (into 8 ohms)
amplifier. On a PA system, the monitoring system is more important
than most people think. EVERY vocalist tends to whine about their monitors
(it's either not loud enough, or sounds bad, etc.).

BTW, don't confuse stage monitors with studio monitors. Studio monitors
are more like home hi-fi speakers - NOT directional, VERY full-range
freq. response, and maybe not designed for continuous high power levels.

Peter

RE < Note 842.1 by JAWS::COTE >

    RE: ... your personal_name?
    
	I wrote that to celebrate the day my son, Timmy, prayed to have all his
sins forgiven and to become a Christian.  No doubt you've heard the grossly
over-used term 'born again'.  Well, the Bible says when a person becomes a 
Christian, 'all things become new'.  So on May 3rd (did I say May 6th?, if so, 
my error) while on the way home we pulled over to the side of the road, by his 
request, and he made the single most important step a person can make.

	Dan (Father_of_3)

Dan,

If you're looking to buy new stage monitors, I highly recommend 
TOA brand. TOA is well-known for making high quality speakers at 
a reasonable price. I picked up a couple of two-way TOA stage 
monitors at $450 for the pair at Music Workshop in Salem, NH last 
year, and they've proven to be very capable.

If you willing to look at used ones, definitely check the Want 
Advertiser. The keyboard player in my band got a super monitor 
for $100.

-Dan

    
 	Other ramblings:
    
    Multiple monitor sends: If you can afford it, that's the way to
    go. Realize that to do this, you need a board with as many busses
    as you want monitor sends, so that each send contains a personalized
    monitor mix for each perormer. At least one amp channel and some
    kind of cut filter (1/3 octave or parametric) per channel. Rane
    makes a real nice 19" rack mount monitor board, 12x6, with parametric
    eq on the outputs and 4 bands on each input, it also has a very
    loud (4watt/ch) headphone amp for soloing each mix.
    
    Speakers: No doubt about it, the C-V are LOUD. No complaints about
    volume with them. PAS are probably the most economical, East Coast
    gets $128 for the 2000, a 12" & bullet tweeter. My favorite are
    the JBL 4602 (actually, I like the Altec the best but they're not
    made anymore) but they're big bux. 
    	Your lead vocalist(s) should get the best monitors you own.
    They have the most critical monitoring need. The drummer (if you
    use a live drummer) might want more than a 12" floor monitor, because
    of the volumes that are produced by the kit. A sidestage monitor
    works well as a drum monitor because it's big and loud. A keyboardist
    most likely will have their own keyboard monitor, all they should
    need is a vocal monitor with some of the rest of the band as fill.
    	If you choose to do sidestage monitoring (kind of a luxury)
    you have compounded your feedback problems, especially if you have
    a roving vocalist. They work best when set way off on the side of
    the stage, with the lead vocal mikes as far in front of them as
    the size of the stage permits. By no means are sidestage monitors
    a replacement for floor monitors, they are there to fill in the
    hole when a front stage performer drops back away from their floor
    monitor. One of the more traditional speakers for sidestage are
    the Altec 1202, mini Voice of the Theatre, but any loud, horn loaded
    midrange speaker will do.
    
    You can spend at least as much on your monitor system as the house
    system.
    
    CdH
    
    
    

    There are a couple of ways to answer this question.
    
    When I first started playing the club scene in Boston, I assumed
    (mistakenly) that all the clubs would have a good enough monitor
    system that I would not need a keyboard monitor, but could run it
    through the main monitors and get a good mix for everyone in the
    band.  Think again.  About the only club with a good enough monitor
    system to do that is the Channel (don't know about places like the
    Orpheum or the Paradise).  Many of the other clubs are lucky if
    the monitors can handle vocals and sax effectively.
    
    To accurately reproduce the wide range of frequencies keyboards
    put out, you really need at least a 12" bass driver and some type
    of tweeter or horn.  A 15" bass driver is even better.  I am using
    some of less quality than that now, but when I can, I use other
    gear.
    
    Putting anything more than vocals through the stage monitors really
    requires a hefty monitor system with lots of power and very good
    monitor speakers.  
    
    No matter where we play, our sound man recommends I bring my own
    monitor set-up, even at large clubs.  That way I can control my
    own sound and level.
    
    Something I am considering after reading Dave Stewart's article
    in this month's _Keyboard_ is getting a second monitor speaker to
    put on the side of the stage opposite me so the rest of the band
    can hear me.
    
    I would suggest carrying with you an adequate monitor system which
    allows the band to do a sound check WITHOUT monitors for everything
    except vocals and acoustic instruments (with the exception of drums.
    If you need to run your drums through monitors, either you're playing
    a huge hall, the drummer is a whimp, or someone's Marshall is cranked
    up to 11 :-).  That way, your band sound will be there very quickly.
    
    My ideal monitor set-up would include a good mixer with an XLR line
    out to feed to the house mix, a good solid amp (200W or more) and
    a full range speaker with 15" speaker and horn/tweeter.  As metioned,
    TOA makes a nice set-up, as does Yamaha and JBL.  I'm sure there
    are others.  Floor wedges are great for vocals and can be good for
    other things too if they have good drivers in them.
    
    While I have never used the "Hot-Spots" type personal monitors,
    I wouldn't trust them personally.
    
    		Derek
    
    

	Thanks to all for some great info.

	Now that I've got some general info under my belt, let me narrow this 
down to my particular situation.  I'm going to be going out as a soloist or 
possibly with one other.  There will be no drums, no electric guitars.  No
more than two instruments at a time, and it will be more folk in nature than 
rock.

	I see in the Wantads this week a number of situations for monitors.  
Some are selling unloaded mon. cabs for as low as $40.  Someone else is selling
the Peavey mini-monitors (which have the plastic molded case that snaps together
for portablility) for $100/pr.  There are some loaded Scorpio monitors for $75 
each and one un-named wedge monitor for the same price.  And there are more up 
the price range and well beyond my budget.

	One other thing I see is some small PA cabs with a 12" and a piezo 
(Peavey's 112PT).  Given my low volumes, would these work well for me as 
side-fills?

	Again, thanks for all the help.

	Dan

    Derek's setup in .7 actually sounds a lot like my own.
    
    Tapco mixer, feeds my amp setup (with an electronic tuner in line)
    and a direct box to the PA. I run my keyboards and my guitars into
    the mixer. One guitar (electric) has some effects before it hits
    the mixer. The other effects (Digital delay and reverb) are in the
    effects loop of the mixer. The mixer has stereo outs, but since
    I run in mono, I send one to the PA, one to my amp. This allows
    me to have two different mixes, by varying the Pan control.
    
    I run the amp mix into a Peavey amp (200 watts), then into a cabinet
    of JBL design, with 1 15" (Pyle driver) woofer and two piezo electric
    tweeters.
    
	- Rick
    

    
    If it's just the two of you, with no sound person, then your monitoring
    requirements are almost nil. A couple of decent vocal monitors on
    the floor in front of you should be plenty. As I mentioned before,
    sidestage monitoring is mainly for filling in the hole when a front
    stage performer steps back, most likely into the wall of drums,
    and would like to hear the rest of the band too. It doesn't sound
    like you plan to do this. You probably won't need a lot of power
    either. I'd go for accuracy over volume in your case, such as the 
    oft-mentioned TOAs or JBLs.

    There are two pairs of JBL 4602s in this weeks WantAd.
    
    Good luck
    CdH
    

	Well, I just thought I'd let you all know the partial conclusion to
this on-going drama...

	I called Darren with Pegasus Sound in Worcester to see if he had any
monitors he was unloading (yuk, yuk...).  He had recently had a PA 'garage sale'
and I was able to snatch up a six channel snake (with two 1/4" returns) for $35
and a friend got a great deal on a CS-400.  He said to come down.  I got there
last night and weeded through a number of junk cabinets that looked like they
had gone through the war (is that what really happens at the 'battle of the 
bands?').  Then I saw one that still had a driver in it and I asked him about 
it.  It was a ported cab (in the sense that it had baffles on both sides of the
driver) and the speaker in it was an EV 12".  He had been intending on 
reconditioning it - giving it a new paint job, adding a tweeter and L-pad...
But he asked me to make an offer on it.  After trying it out to insure that it
was functional I asked if he'd take $35.  (Slight pause)  "Yeah, alright."  I 
got him to throw in a couple of fair condition mike stands for an extra $5.

	So now I think I'm set for a while.  When I got it home, I noticed there
was a slight rattle when I used a Rhodes patch through it - I'll have to check 
into that further.  But of all the deals I saw in the Want ads, this one seemed
to be good, even if I DID have to replace the 12".  (The next closest was some
unloaded wedge monitors for $40).

	One other thing I noticed when I got home last night.  There was a Radio
Shack flyer in the mail and it seems this month there having a sale on the 
Minimus-7 speakers - $29 ea.  I was wondering if one could adapt them to sit on
a stand like a hot-spot monitor if they'd do as well.  They handle 40 watts and
the freq. resp. is 50hz to 20Khtz.  Any opinions?  I have heard from somewhere 
(Here? Craig Anderton?) that these are great for low-cost near-field studio 
monitors.

	Thanks again to all who offered advise and information.  This conference
is an invaluable source for someone like me that finds themselves having to
catch up with years of sound reinforcement development.

	Dan

    I wouldn't recommend the Radio Shack speakers you mentioned. Although
    I have no experience with that model, there is probably not enough
    headroom in the 40W power rating. You could easily fry them in a
    gig environment. Power ratings can be calculated a bunch of different
    ways, so different brands should not be compared on ratings alone.
    
    I would say "never skimp on you speakers". They are the single most
    important part of any PA, hi-fi, etc.
    

RE < Note 842.12 by SSDEVO::MCCOLLUM >

	Perhaps this is too much of a divergence from the topic, but since you
mentioned it, Peter, I'll ask here.  Concerning Power Ratings.

	I was talking to the guy that used to run sound for me last night and he
told me that he has some monitors that were rated at 75 Watts that he was using 
a CS-400 to drive.  He said he never even approached distortion or blow-out
problems with this scenario.  Now the CS-400, according to my catalog here, puts
out 260W at 4 ohms and 150W at 8.  Even at 8 ohms its sending twice as much
power as the speaker is rated at.  Why does this work?

	Another related question - Where is the power really driven from; at the
mixer/preamp ar at the power amp?  Say I set the power amp at full and set the
mixer out at only 1/4 of it's fader.  Am I running at full power, with a low
volume or am I controlling watts at the mixer?  I guess what I'm getting at is
what exactly are watts (give me a lesson in Electronics 101)?  Please try to
explain in as plain a language as you can.  If I set the knob on the power amp
at half it's setting, what am I putting out to the speaker?  Half the power
rating of the amp?  Or is it more complicated than that?

	Dan (obviously a software man)

    The actual power output will be a function of the load and the current
    supplied to that load.  Let's ignore the load, as it'll be constant
    for any given setup (yeah, I know the impedance changes as a function
    of frequency, but you know what I mean).  The "volume" control
    on the pwer amp is just that, another volume control.  It just scales
    down the input signal;  you can control the overall volume heard
    either by sending a big signal to the power amp and attenuating
    it there, or by controlling the signal at the mixer and setting
    the amp's volume control high (i.e., no attenuation).  It ends up
    being the same thing, i.e., the same number of volts driving the
    power amp's input stage.  You can juggle the control settings to
    keep the useful controls (e.g., main output levels on the board)
    in convenient ranges (i.e., it's nice if typical volume levels have
    the mixer faders set up about 3/4 rather than down at 1/10).
    
    len.
    

    Oops, left out the most important part - the pwer rating of a power
    amp is the maximum power level it can provide before it starts to
    distort, overheat, burn out, etc..  The actual power level delivered
    is directly proportional to the input voltage.  The control on the
    power amp may reduce the input signal; think of it as a way to make
    the board's output levels and the amp's input needs more compatible.
    
    len.
    

    
    If your EV is blown, which it sounds like it is, then there's a
    guy I use out of Hopedale Ma that does a great job of rebuilding
    speakers. If your cones are good he'll just do a recoil. If both
    the cone and the coil are good than he just reseats the coil.
    
    About amplifier power...and speaker ratings....the FTC screwed
    everything up 8^) a few years ago when they made consumer amplifier
    ratings standardized to RMS sine wave power at 8 ohms, 20-20KHz @ x%
    THD. That's ok for comparing two different brands of hifi recievers, but it
    really doesn't tell you much about how an amp functions in the real
    world. What the EIA and manufacturers specs tell you are how the
    amp MIGHT function in a professional environment, like, full blast
    with high transient input, like rock music. Hence you might see
    an FTC rating of 200W/ch into 8 ohms and an EIA rating of 350W/ch.
    Another thing to look for is how the amp drives low impedance loads.
    If an amp (Rat Shack special) will put out 200W/ch into 8 ohms,
    which is a fairly safe load for an amp, but only put out 250W/ch
    into 4 ohms, then it's not going to have too much headromm to handle
    those transients.
    
    Now speakers, they are an electrical transducer, converting electrical
    signals to motion, or sound. Now that speaker that's rated for 75
    watts, is probably rated using pink noise or a sine wave as it's
    input, in other words a steady state signal, which is the most
    difficult test. Now, I'm sure you're not into new age music 8^)
    and don't play pink noise or sine waves on stage. Your music has
    transients, which impose a much shorter demand on the speaker, so
    it can dissipate this heat over time rather than having to deal
    with it all at once. Kind of like your car...if you drove it flat
    out all the time, it wouldn't last too long. But you don't, or do
    you??? 8^).
    
    Rebuild your floor monitor. EV makes a nice horn that's relatively
    cheap and sounds good that you can build into your cabinet. I also have
    a pair of EV midrange drivers I'm not using anymore that you can have
    for cheap bucks, as I got them along with some better horns. I really
    don't think you'll be happy with Rat Shack home hifi speakers as
    your monitors.
    
    CdH
    

    
    

< Note 842.14 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >
                              -< Volts is Volts >-

>    down the input signal;  you can control the overall volume heard
>    either by sending a big signal to the power amp and attenuating
>    it there, or by controlling the signal at the mixer and setting
>    the amp's volume control high (i.e., no attenuation).  It ends up
>    being the same thing, i.e., the same number of volts driving the
>    power amp's input stage.  

	I've been recommended to set the amp at full level and adjust the
mixer for volume changes.  Is this just a convenience trick (you don't want to
be running up to the power amp all the time) or do some people think this is
THE right way to do it for power and equipment efficiency?

>    You can juggle the control settings to
>    keep the useful controls (e.g., main output levels on the board)
>    in convenient ranges (i.e., it's nice if typical volume levels have
>    the mixer faders set up about 3/4 rather than down at 1/10).

	I have to keep my main fader quite low (about 1/4 setting) when I have
the amp at full.  When I boost the mixer main fader the sound starts getting 
noisy.  Is this just the quality of equipment?

    	Dan

< Note 842.16 by SHR001::DEHAHN >

>    If your EV is blown, 

	I just thought the cabinet needed to be checked for vibration.  It's
a home-brew cabinet, though a very well done home-brew.  Could be the driver's
blown.  Seemed curious that it only rattled on a rhodes patch...

>   which it sounds like it is, then there's a
>    guy I use out of Hopedale Ma that does a great job of rebuilding
>    speakers. If your cones are good he'll just do a recoil. If both
>    the cone and the coil are good than he just reseats the coil.

	What kind of cost does this generally entail?
    
	Dan

    re .17
    
    It shouldn't make any difference.  Generally you want to send around
    the highest level signal you can afford to, as they are less
    susceptible to noise (well, they're just as susceptible, but if
    the noise added is constant then the higher the signal the less
    apparent the noise will be; the noise *added* by a given stage or
    component will be input/output level independent, but the noise
    *passed through* by a component will rise and fall with the component's
    gain).
    
    It's obviously easier to adjust levels at the board rather than
    at the power amp.  Also, if you have a long cable run between the
    board and the power amp, you should run as high a signal as possible
    (for better signal to noise performance).  Attenuating the signal
    at the amp's input should *not* significantly increase the noise
    content.
    
    I can't tell from your last remark if you're saying that with the
    board's main faders up and the power amp attenuator down you get
    more noise than with the board's main faders down and the power
    amp's attenuator up.  As I said before, the voltage input to the
    power amp's input stage should be the same, and the attenuator should
    not introduce any significant noise of its own (it's a passive device,
    and may generate some thermal noise, and may have a noisy wiper,
    but if it's not moving it should be quiet).  If anything, I'd expect
    you to get more noise with things set up as board low amp high than
    with board high amp low, as the latter configuration will attenuate
    the noise picked up on the board to amp cable as well as the signal.
    
    If you're saying that with the power amp all the way up, when you
    turn up the board fader you get more noise, well, yeah, of course;
    you're talking really major gain now.  You wouldn't normally run
    with those settings because you'd deafen everybody for miles around.
    And the noise (which is always there, signal or not) gets amplified
    that much too.
    
    Did this help?
    
    len.
    
    

RE < Note 842.19 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >
    
>    If you're saying that with the power amp all the way up, when you
>    turn up the board fader you get more noise, well, yeah, of course;
>    you're talking really major gain now.  You wouldn't normally run
    
>    Did this help?
    
	You got it.  You see, when I bought the amp and mixer, the guy told me
to turn the amp up full and adjust volume with the main and indiv channel 
faders.  This is what I've been doing, and I've been trying to go through
various gymnastics to keep the noise level down, since I haven't needed to
boost the volume on the board (at 1/4 setting it's more than load enough for my 
basement).

	This seems like it would also solve the problem I'm having with my
other speaker cabinet.  While the PA speakers were out on loan to a friend
I've been using another cab I have that has 4 10" drivers and an open back.
It has always been quite noisy hooking up the PA mixer and p/amp to it.  Now
I'm going to go home and pull the main fader up to at least half and drop the
power amp down to see if I can get away with using this to practice (I hate 
having to carry the PA speakers down every time I want to set up a practice 
setting).
    
    Dan

    
    Re: 18
    
    When you're juggling the board input and output level controls,
    along with the amp input level controls, you're trying to make a
    good compromise between noise and sound quality. Generally, the
    outputs of your mixer are the noisiest section, because most of
    the bux are spent on the highest quality input section for the
    budget. The input section is where the major gain of the board is,
    and thus it's the most noise critical. The outputs are mostly a
    little voltage gain but mostly power gain, to drive the long lines
    to the amp. There's a copmpromise to be made between noise, at the
    lower fader settings, and overload, at the higher settings. What
    you want to do is keep the board faders as high as you can before
    overload, and control the overall output level with the most convenient
    combination of the ooutput faders on the board and the amp input
    faders. 
    
    Quiet boards cost bigggggggggg$$$$$$$$$$$.
    
    About your monitors....without hearing them I'm just guessing. If
    it's a buzzing type of sound it's most likely the cabinet, but if
    it's a rattling or clunking like sound it's probably the speaker;
    the cone has become separated from the voice coil somewhat, and
    is out of alignment. I had my Altecs completely rebuilt for around
    $80 apiece, that's with a professional discount. Fully reconed and
    recoiled with 100W coils. 
    
    Chris
    

    
    Re: the last few
    
    A secondary consideration in matching the power amp attenuator
    and the board faders may be the total volume you need.
    
    A case in point:  Our band was using a Crown MicroTech 1000 amp
    which puts out 500 watts per side.  What we would do when setting
    up our system in a given room is run the main and monitor masters
    up to around 75% full on, then trim the power amp attenuators until
    we got *roughly* the max volume we needed. Thus from room to room,
    and even from mains to monitors, the power amp settings would be
    different, but the board settings would be roughly the same. 
    
    This way, we had a wide adjustment range at the board regardless
    of the room we were in, without worrying about totally deafening
    everyone in range when we were in a small room. 
    
    This does, of course, entail a trade off in noise if your board
    is the noisy type, as has been already mentioned.  For small rock
    bands, it often is a moot point. In Carnegie Hall I wouldn't use a 
    $200 mixing board anyway.
     
    
    

    I put money down on a used TOA monitor recently. Model number is
    SM-25A. How does this differ from the SM-25M. Anybody know?
    
    Mike

RE < Note 842.23 by OILCAN::DIORIO >

>   ... Model number is
>   SM-25A. How does this differ from the SM-25M. Anybody know?
    
	about 12 letters...    

	Dan

    Do-do-do-do, do-do-do-do, do-do-do-do....
    
    Edd