Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    
    re. -1 or anybody else.
    
    What exactly is "release velocity" and is it a midi-standard ? Does
    the KX88 support it. I have seen references to this elsewhere but
    never did understand it.         
                                     
    				Paul.              
    
    

    Release Velocity has been a part of MIDI since day 1, but it is
    not widely used.  It records the speed with which you lift your
    finger from a key.  I vaguely remember that the KX88 supports it,
    but I am not certain.  The MIDI implementation chart for the KX88
    will tell you for sure.
    
    I think release velocity is used only by high-end sound modules,
    like the Fairlight.  I know it isn't used by the Yamaha DX7.
        John Sauter

    The joe that I talked to in Pittsburgh said that the KX88 DOESN'T
    support it.  Of course, this is no more than a ``yes it does...
    no it doesn't refutation.''  Those guys don't know everything. 
    The ESQ-1, for example, does support it.
    
    For a neatsie example, check out the Oberheim Matrix-6 (which also
    supports it, internally, but doesn't send or recieve the appropriate
    MIDI messages, I'm told). There is a string patch, which, if you play
    with a staccato release, shuts of immediately, but if you let go of the
    keys slowly, there is a non-zero release time.  Very nice for this
    sort of patch.
    

    
    but thats about all....
    
    Seems expensive. What can it *really* do?
    
    The music workshop across from daddy's nashua is a kawai
    dealer, but they are smallish and might not have it....
    

    
    	re .4	The music workshop across from Daddy's in Nashua is,
    in fact, so small as to be non existant.
    
    	Reg
    

    The Music Workshop in Salem did not have one as of last Tuesday.
    Dan

    
    Additive synthesis is fairly boring UNLESS you
    can specify time varying harmonics. You can 
    get some neat looking waves, but farily static 
    in sound.
    
    To be competetive with other synths I would hope
    that this beast has some method, perhaps an n-stage
    envelope where one specifies all (32?64?) harmonics
    AT EACH STAGE (whew) to describe how the sound changes
    over time. That could get you extremely complex and/or
    realistic sounds....
    
    otherwise? 

    Well, that's one of the reasons I was curious about the sounds of
    the bugger.  The reviewer gets quite excited about the amount of
    timbral motion availible, but he's anything but technically clear
    about how.
    
    Apparently there are four  independent ``modulation sources'' which are
    black boxes which combine all of the traditional modulation parameters:
    velocity (attack and release), aftertouch, key number, LFO and envelope
    (six stage, btw), to produce a single modulation output.  It seems
    like each of these is a ``modulation synth.''  And then the output
    of each or all of those can be used to modulate the level of each
    harmonic, as well as the behaviour of the two filters (an 11-stage formant
    filter, and conventional VCF type) and the amplifier on the voice
    output.
    
    I don't know why they put the conventional synth apparatus on the
    output (the filters and amp), seems redundant, but I imagine that
    would make it easier to program...
    
    It really looks like a honkin' synth to me (actually, it really
    looks like a K3 physically), but I haven't been able to find
    one yet either.

    welllllll....
    
    ONE reason to put a vcf  on the thing would be to get some
     dynamic sounds because the additive process 
    only gives you a nifty, but static, sound.
    
    I hope not.
    
    I dont get the "modulation source" thing....

    Uhh.  Well I'll try to describe it again (lucidly), but I'm not
    absolutely positive this is the scheme.
    
    The level of each harmonic may be (individually) modulated by the
    sum (I think) of four modulation sources like this:
    
    |source 1|->|kN1|--v
       ...             +-->|harmonic N|--> 
    |source 4|->|kN4|--^

    Where kN1 is the the mod depth of source 1 on the Nth harmonic.
    (|a|->|b| means that the output of b is multiplied by the output
    of a)
    
    Anyway, each of the four modulation sources is comprised
    of the following (take source 1 as an example):
    
    |LFO|---->|Klfo1|--v
                       +
    |Key #|-->|Kkey1|--v
                       |
    |ENV|---->|Kenv1|--+---> to oscillators, filters & amps.
                       |
    |After|-->|Kaft1|--^
                       |
    |Veloc|-->|KVel1|--+
    
    There are separate LFOs for each source.
    
    Note however, about half of this description is inferred from an
    inadequate description. (This is how I would design it, if I were
    given the review as a ``working spec'')...
                                           
    I can't wait to get my hands on one...
    
    Steph
    

    
    
    			uh.........huh?
    
    
    which keyboard review this?
    you can send copy?
    
    ron ross
    ML0 21-4 E10
    
    tanx
    

    
    hey! demo disk in latest kbd mag!!!!!
    
    first (?) advertisement on same 'page'
    
    gonna listen tonite.
    
    wonder where dere is one to play
    
    Any price on this mudda?
    

    

    	re price.  Full list 'til generally available, then 20 - 35
    percent off 'til obsolescence (say 18 months ?), then 50 - 60 %
    off 'til it becomes "collectable" (as in Conn, or Farfisa, or Hammond,
    or Mini Moog, or....) at which point it could climb back up.
    
    	Reg
    

I listened to it last night.  Not that impressive.  The horns are great,
but the piano sounded awful.  The DX piano blows it off.  It is also very
"digital" sounding (surprise!).  Very thin sounding and also had that 
essence that samplers have in that different notes sound exactly the same
only sped up or slowed down, depending on the pitch played.  I *hate* that
sound.  I hear it with drum machines and it drives me crazy.  Since when
does a mounted tom have the same exact timbre as a floor tom?  Very unnatural
sounding in some instances.

Killer horns tho...

Todd.

    The kawai K3 was a stunner, but at the price ($850 for *6* voice
    polyphony), a bit hard to support.. sounds like the K5 be a winnah.
    
    karl

    Maybe I'm hallucinating, but I thought I once played a Kawai
    synthesizer with a weighted keyboard.  Was this the K3?  From
    all reports the K5 has an unweighted keyboard.  
    
    	Eirikur
    

    Cheez-Whiz????
    
    ...sounds like just the thing to compliment an Ashbory bass!!
    
    Edd

I think this thing would be fun to program.  The demo record left me a bit
cold because it was geared more toward real instrument emulation, as if
to say, "hey, this is additive synthesis so you can make it sound exactly
like *anything*".  I like Steph's point of view - it is a good unit for sonic
creativity.  Acoustic instrument emulation on K5 is like acoustic instrument
emulation on a DX7 in that it is an approximation.

How about we rt 495 folks get together and check Steph's unit out?  Special
edition of LEDs BIM?

Todd.

    Sounds like fun, but we would probably have to do it in a place
    where more than two people can breath at once.  (i.e. not my so-called
    studio)  Any time after Monday of next week.
    
    (I also got a R50 on which I haven't had enough time to piece together
    a review because I have been hacking like crazy so that I can off-load
    the K5 RAM cart onto my ST because I am going to Pittsburgh this
    weekend to get more sounds and perhaps some kind of stereo
    reinforcement because Kawai uses annoying handshakes in their bulk dump
    protocol, and my old bulk dumper wasn't up to snuff which might be of
    some interest to drum machine types and can you all say
    ``ENGLISH-E-RUNON, too many disjoint clauses.''). 
    
    The K5 has a keyboard which feels very much like that of a DX7II
    (or S) in my opinion--plastic keys with weights in them, and
    spring-only restoring forces.  (The K5m doesn't have a keyboard.)
    
    I think I forgot to mention in my review that I found the manual
    to be excellent--clear, written in english, and as far as I can
    tell, comprehensive.
    
    Steph

    I solved the digital noise problem by hooking it up to a real mixer
    (instead of my keyboard monitor amp).  It was an impedance mismatch.
    All quiet on the western front now.
    
    Electromagnetically, the thing is still noisy as hell.  I can't
    get within eight feet of it with my guitar!
    
    
    Todd,  you are right about the sounds having a tape speed-up, slow-down
    quality to them.
    
    The problem is that most of the imitative factory sounds (e.g. piano)
    seem to have been produced by sampling the instrument, doing an FFT,
    and using that as the harmonic basis for the sound. 
    
    They then (attempt) to provide timbral variation across the keyboard
    using traditional subtractative filter+envelope+key tracking approach.
    The actual harmonic amounts are not modulated by the key position.  The
    resultant sound is equivalent to something like a wave table synth
    with a piano cycle in the table.
    
    This is just the easy way out.
    
    It is, however, possible to modulate harmonics with they key position.
    In fact, the key tracking ``curve'' is definable for each different
    sound.  The keyboard tracking modulation capabilities don't look as
    rich as they could be, but I haven't had enough time to really see
    if they'll do the trick.
    
    Steph
    

The latest technology trend seems to be sampling -> FFT -> reconstruction
via approximation.  I believe you will see PC H/W and S/W shortly that
will digest a sample disk for {insert your favorite sampling synth here},
convert it to spectrum data at any time point, and ship the corresponding
K5 sysex data that approximates that spectrum out to the K5 via MIDI.
If the S/W really gets down and dirty, it may be able to do the FFT at many
points throughout the sample duration, and do some spectrum interpolation
for the actual recreation process.  This would give quite different sounds
than an actual sampler would give, plus give you the capability to tweak
the K5 parameters just a bit to add some interesting sample variation 
characteristics.

Boy, there is tons of room for product creativity in the K5 aftermarket tools
market...

Todd.

    I think that is what  Roland S/A synthesis is all about.
    

    Played the K5 in boston the other day. Sadly disappointed.
    Sounds are thin. Velocity seems to map to volume and not
    much timbre change. Exceptions: Strings are excellent.
    
    MAYBE its a great system but poor factory presets. (seen this
    before,eh?)
    
    AND MAYBE with the right Com. Aided. Synthesis Software (CASS?)
    it can be killer, but that's missing from the box. AND it's not
    clear how they program ALL those harmonics. IT DOESNT seem like
    there's an envelop for each harmonic. Theres some sort of translation
    from "like-a-VCF-and_ADSR" into the harmonic dynamics. If true,
    this is a real restriction. (solved maybe by the right software...)
    
    not_buying_one_Ron
    
    

    For each chunk of 63 harmonics (of which there are two), there are
    four envelopes.  For each of the harmonics you pick one of the four
    envelopes.  This is a simplification over the standard additive
    scheme where you have an envelope for EACH harmonic.
    
    The four envelopes seem to provide adequate time-domain modulation
    for most purposes (plus there is a VCA and a VCF each with a separate
    envelope in addition to the harmonic stuff).
    
    The real problem is, as you have noticed, controller modulation.
    It seems to be VERY far from a matrix scheme, and worse, the otherwise
    excellent manual is totally vague about what modulation there is.
    Most modulation parameters are simply described as ``controlling
    the amount of xxx modulation on the yyy''.  It gives you no indication
    about what quantities of the yyy are being modulated.
    
    Velocity can control timbre, but I haven't figured what the limits
    are.  Admittedly, with the presets you don't get much.  It does
    provide velocity cross-fade, though.
    
    
    The strings are quite nifty, and the ``airy'' sounds are especially
    good.  (Hammonds aren't so bad either).  Many of the presets are
    thin.  I just got a new set that is a bit better.
    
    The box is really to complicated for me to pass immediate judgement
    on it, though.
    
    Personally, the most annoying thing I find is that the output amps
    don't really have enough guts to drive a good STRONG line level.
    (close, but no cigar.)
    
    Steph
    
    

    Pittsburgh?  Yes, its a nice place, but why go all the way to 
    Pittsburgh for a synth??  
    
    By the way, when in Pittsburgh, besides Piano's and Stuff, try 
    Hollowood Music in McKee's Rocks, and Rocell Electronics, in 
    Etna for sound reinforcement and pro audio (if they're still 
    around).  Also, some good, but possibly pricey studios down in the
    burg.
    
    Fredric

    Considering that I saved $400 on the purchase, that payed for the
    ticket, plus tons of $.50 tacoes and $1.75 pitchers of beer at Jose
    and Tony's, and still left me with enough to do my Christmas shopping.
    
    The help at Hollowood is too surly.  ``Sure, we got it, and if we
    don't got it, we'll get it, I can give it to you for $300 when it
    comes it, that'll be $450, please.'
    
    Still a durn sight better than any of the Boston stores, and the
    only place in Pittsburgh where you can side-by-side Yamaha and Roland.
    
    Rocell is still around.
    
    Remember, Boston finished second behind Pittsburgh as the most livable
    city...
    
    Steph
    

    
    In a move to the intuitive numbering scheme used by Yamaha, Kawai
    is following the K3 and K5 synths with the K1.
    
    61-note, velocity, aftertouch, weighted keys.  Two page ad in May
    MUSICIAN says "minimum moola" without translating price to dollars.
    
    Also available, K1m, "Convenient desk-top module" with all the controls
    on the top (shades of the Korg EX-800 !!)
    
    Rack-mounts must be passe...????

    the K5 was very differnet than the K3 sound production
    wise.......
    
    what method does the K1 use? 
    

    I feel obligated to put this in the K5 note.  Some of this stuff seems
    pretty neat, if it comes to light. 
---------------------------------------------------
        
    Newsgroups: rec.music.synth
Path: decwrl!ucbvax!NUSC.ARPA!rossi%v70nl.DECnet
Subject: Kawai K5/K1
Posted: 31 May 88 21:24:00 GMT
Organization: 
 
 
[35 line paragraph deleted] 

[7 line paragraph deleted]
 
Finally, I bought another K5 (after listening to the K1 and D50 for a couple
of hours I was so impressed with the quietness of the K5, i figured I'd
buy another one).  While I was there I found several things which might be
of interest to K5 owners.  First, Kawai is working on a major ROM update which
will add a lot of stuff to the already overstuffed K5 voice acthetecture.
Apparently there will be a programmable delay function on all the envelope
generators, and the DDF and DDA envelopes will support re-triggering as
well as looping. (It's funny talking about 'all the envelope generators' but
unless you have programmed a K5 you have no idea how powerful the 11 EVs
can be).  Also, they are fixing a few things which have to do with voice
assignment and there is some kind of provision for 2 of the numbered outputs
(the K5 has 4 and 1 mixed out) to be ganged as real stereo outs with some
kind of stereo bus routing system controling it.  Next, everyone is saying
that the next revision will support non-harmonic partial (correct usage here)
frequency spacings.  No one could explain how they were going to do it, but
it was suggested that you would just program in the frequency of the
partials one at a time.  No one could tell me how they were going to deal
with decimal places in the lower frequency regions, but even if the fqs have
to be integers, it will still be neat.  There is also a suggestion of the
inclusion of more envelopes in the DHGs with 8 total evs available to
each DHG and 16 when the two DHGs are combined, this I'm told will require
some modest cost hardware fixing.  Finally, the second sources are apparently
hard at work in K5 support.  Grey Matter is doing a hardware upgrade which
is suposed to add a lot of stuff to the DHG system.  Also, I was told that
software sampler(s) is/are available which will digitize to computer memory
and do harmonic envelope analysis in order to best approximate the input
in K5 language.  Kawai has just released patch banks 7 and 8, in which many
of the sounds were created this way. 
 
One last thing about Kawai K5 user library.  Kawai will put any of the official
8 banks on a RAM card for free if you supply the RAM card.  Also, there is
a downloadable ASCII service available on PAN for KAWAI users.  I would
appreciate any information on the PAN stuff.  I will also share my K5
programming creations with anybody, preferably on disk or through modem.
I have just acquired Prolib for the PC if anybody else uses that librarian and
wants to share Kawai (K5, K3), Oberheim (Matrix-6), Yamaha (DX7, TX81Z, FB-01),
Casio CZ, Sequential VS patches.
 
John
Rossi@NUSC.ARPA

    I called Kawai to obtain new ROMs for my K5m and my R50.
    
    They took my name, and I had the ROMs in four days (for free). 
    I didn't have to give them serial numbers or pow-wow with the
    technicians at all.
    
    I have also talked at length with their techs, and they're OK too.
    
    I think they are the manufacturer who provides the best support of all
    with whom I have had dealings (DOD, Roland, Yamaha and Elka). 
                                                                      
    Not that the others are bad, Kawai is just very good.
    
    Steph

    re -1
    
    Amen!  This has been my experience with the folks back in Torrance,
    CA..  They are real helpful and more than willing to go out of their
    way to help.  In fact, when it came to getting my K5 Librarian and
    the 8 banks of additional patches, KAWAI was able to get these to
    me while my local dealer (who I bought the gear from!) stalled and
    jived me.  From now on if I need something, I just call their toll
    free number.
    
    
    re -2
    
    I have had a chance to listen to the K5 patches on Cards #6, #7,
    and #8.  These are the ones which supposedly are derived from computer
    aided synthesis of sampled sounds.  How do they sound?  Well, maybe
    I just haven't listened to them enough, but to my ears they are
    rather unremarkable.  I will listen some more...
    
    What do other K5ers think?
    
    
    Still very pleased,
    Bill Allen
    
    

    Well, this may be one of the last notes you see on the KAWAI K5.
    Not many of us have them, though I have never met anyone who did
    who did not feel it is a great machine.  However, if what I'm hearing
    is correct KAWAI is finally pulling the plug on the K5 in favor
    of new permutations of the K1.
    
    What this means for most of you MIDIots out there who are looking
    for more voices, is that you might be able to get an OUTRAGEOUS
    deal on one of these machines.  A local music pirate is blowing
    the K5M (table top module) out at $499.00!!!##@$*!!!  At that price,
    I am seriously thinking of picking one up on G.P..  
    
    Seriously, I would strongly recommend that people looking for an
    infinitely programable, and flexible multi-timbral SGU give the
    K5 a listen.  Seeing as how KAWAI will GIVE you over 1000 patches
    for it free (well, on whatever media you supply) and many of these
    patches sound great, you really can't go wrong.
    
    Bill

    
    
    	I didn't know they made a table-top model.
    Just that GIGANTIC rack mount. Sounds like a good deal though.

The K5m has a ``cleverly'' designed case which allows it to be either
table top or rack mount.

The rack face is 3 high, I think.

Sorry to hear that it is going in favor of the more popular, boring,
consumer architecture, but its still going to be my main synth for some
time to come.

Steph

Well, I bit.  Caruso's had a used "brand new in the box shape" K5 with keyboard
for $595.  I've been wanting one for a long time and at that price decided it
was a good shot.  now, how do I go about getting all these patches?

Anybody have Steph Bailey's Email address for this year at Chicago?

thanks

chad

    re -.1
    
    Chad:
    
    Welcome to the K5 Club!!!  I think you got a steal on the unit,
    since I paid $1250 for mine (but that was almost 2 years ago).
    I'd be really interested to hear your comments after you've had
    a chance to live with it for a while.
    
    I don't know Steph's address, but you can get the patches directly
    from KAWAI simply by sending them your favorite media.  (This way
    you can also be sure that you get all the latest patches; I think
    there are 9 sets of 48 single/48 multi.)
    
    	You could also call them at (800)421-2177 and ask for Danny
    Sofer.
    
    Santa Clusters,
    
    Bill Allen
    

Thanks Bill!

I've been wanting to do this for a long time.

I got Steph's old email address and fired of some mail.  He must have it
forwarded because he replied back in very little time but from a different
place.  He'll be back in Maynard for a few weeks starting in a week.  He's
going to be sending me the bulkdumps UUENCODED from Chicago or bring me some
disks when he comes back here.

Bill, what should I look for in terms of ROM revisions, etc.  Are there any
special key seq. you know about that give such info and other neato tricks?

I doubt that Kawai would be able to send them to me in "Bulkdump" format, as
most editors use their own format, and not the internal bulkdump
format but I'll give them a call.

Chad

    Chad:
    
    I think one of the back issues of the KAWAI newsletter may have
    talked about initializing codes... I'll check tonite when I get
    home.  I have never got into that much.  I did pop a new Operating
    System into my unit last summer, but didn't notice much of a 
    difference.  However, it may have have something to do with the
    way the unit handles communications.
    
    see ya,
    
    Bill Allen

    If these are "PD" (or facsimile), why not blast them down here to
    the MIDIlib?  I don't think we have any K5 stuff yet.

    Of course, that assumes that DYO780 will be up (it's been dead for
    almost 5 days now ....). 

-b

    Well after reading .36, I called up Caruso's and they had another used 
    'brand new in the box shape' K5 and although I had never played one
    I order it solely on the all good thinks I have from Bill and other
    noters in this conference and USENET rec.music.comp conference.
    
    I must say I like the way the system is put together, especially the
    the MULTI patches. I did'nt thing the action was better than my ESQ-1,
    but I sure like the aftertouch feature, especially with the great 
    sounding brass patches. BTW, I am going from workstation to single
    component setup very reluctantly as I like the convenience of the
    workstation.
    
    Well so much for that, I think my K5 has a problem. I'll appreciate if
    those of you with K5's colud let me know if this is normal. With headphones
    plugged into the K5 and volume turn all the way down I hear quite of
    niose (snow) and it increase as the volume slider is opened.(It me
    again with the snow, remember my Porta One - I was told that the snow
    noise there was normal). This is also true with the mix and 1-4 outputs
    of the K5 going into a mixer.  
    A side by side with ESQ-1 showed that there was no noise coming ESQ-1
    under any circumstances and the volume of the outputs on the ESQ-1 was much
    louder than the K5's for any given patch, i.e the volume on the K5 was
    at max while ESQ-1 volume was 1/2 open all other varible held constant.
    
    Now is this normal for the K5?  I am going to have return mine as much as
    I like it already, even if that's normal. As it is, I have enough noisey
    equipment.
    
    Errol (who_has_enough_problems_dealing_with_real_snow)

    re .41
    Erroll:
    
    Congratulations on your new K5!! 8-)   But sorry you are having
    a problem with noise :-(.  Since you have fingered me as one of
    the people responsible for getting into this mess (;-]) I will check
    my K5 with headphones the first chance I get to see if I can duplicate
    what you are experiencing.
    
    Off the top of my head, I do not recall the K5 being any more or
    less "noisy" than either my ROLAND D110 or KURZWEIL 1000PX.  If
    my studio is dead quiet, I can hear a VERY faint, very high-pitched
    whine coming from the unit, but it is no way intrusive.  And, I
    don't ever remember hearing that sound in the "mix".  Other than
    the "clicking" problem I had on certain patches (which was easily
    fixed by adjusting the attack rates on these sounds), I have never
    had any reason to worry about noise level with the K5.
    
    You mentioned that you missed the "workstation convenience" of the
    ESQ-1.  At the rate of starting a battle over you know what here*,
    I think you will come to appreciate how much you can do with the
    K5 and Sequencer Plus on the PC.  You simply have tons more power
    and flexibility.
    
    Erroll, I would spend a couple days with the machine before sending
    it back.  I am sure that Caruso will give you the time, and you
    might find that the "noise" you perceive is being accentuated by
    the headphones.  On the other hand, IF your K5 really is defective
    and has a noise problem, you might try getting Caruso's to have
    it repaired.  I still think a properly functioning K5 for $600.00
    is a STEAL!!!.  But, take the time to check into all the other features
    and functions of the machine, and how it fits your needs before
    you make any final decisions.                   OK?  
    
    Santa Clusters,
    Bill (who is waiting for some Ire-music from Studio "P") Allen
                                                                
    
    
    
    
    
    
    * Components vs work......Agghhhh!!@#$@  Don't SAY that!!!!