Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    One thing you can do is use "virtual tracks", which don't go on
    tape until mixdown.  All you put on the "master" tape is stuff that
    can't be driven off a sync track (e.g., guitars, vocals).  Drum
    machines and synths are sequenced off the sync track at mixdown
    time.  The obvious limitation of this approach is you need enough
    sync'able sound sources to do everything you need to do all at once
    at mixdown time, and enough inputs on your mixdown mixer to accommodate
    all those sources.  However, you don't eat up tracks doing drums
    and synths in stereo.
    
    Going to 8 tracks is an expensive proposition.  The machines are
    expensive (ballpark $2K), a board that can handle an 8 track (say,
    at least 12 into 4 into 2) is expensive (ballpark $1.5K - $2K),
    and tape is expensive (figure at least $1/minute).  Assuming you
    trade in your current unit(s), you're probably looking at a minimum
    upgrade cost of $2.5K.  That money might be better spent on sound
    sources for use with your 3-tracks + sync deck.  On the other hand,
    there's a *dramatic* improvement in quality going to 8 tracks on
    1/2" tape at 15 ips.  Especially w/dbx (like 95 db S/N, which is
    in CD class).  (But dbx will cost you another $500.)
    
    Then again, you could stop trying to curry favor with us technoweenies
    by buying into the "club" and instead put your money in the bank where
    some people think it belongs.  ;^)
         
    len.
    

    Well Brad, I'd forget an 8track for the time being, as you have
    the 707, OB, and 2 TXes that can be run from a (new, larger) dedicated
    sequencer. This plus a nice under $300 8channel mixer (Yamaha 
    KM08?) would allow you to mix all the MIDI stuff to two trax (stereo!)
    out of four. Then you could either add more MIDI sequencer trax and
    overdub to track 3 (trk4 being the sync track) or just use track
    3 & 4 for vocals and guitar. Having the 8chan mixer allows all sorts
    of inputs to mix down to one or two channels.
    
    karltwo

    
    I agree with Karl and can also come from the base of having had
    the same problem. My only tape soundsource is also a tascam 144.
    
    My first instrument as I said somewhere else today was the CX5 which
    is also a computer and therefore presented me with stereo outs plus
    I had the RX21 also strero. Total of 4 outs. Which was O.K. initially.
    As I would sequence all this stuff into the 2 tracks of the CX5
    to get the basic mix. The next aquisition was the CZ1000 which reuqired
    another mixer channel which necessitated the purchase of a 6 into
    2 mixer and so on and so on. 
    
    Brad I think the first thing you should do is speak to Edd Cote
    who is the exper on Qx7's and try and work out why you are running
    out of sequencer memory. He seems to do O.K. If this will not fulfill
    your purposes then a good sequencer comes next followed by a mixer.
    Don't waste your time with a 6-2 like I did go the whole hog and
    by a 12-2 you'll use it all in the end. 
    
    Incidently I have never yet had to resort to a sync track, I always
    record the basic sequnced mix onto tracks 1 and 2 of the 4 track and then
    ping-pong (Japanese idiom) with tracks 3 and 4 for Vocals and guitars.
    Is there a flaw in my approach here.
                              
                                        Paul.
    					

    From you description, another mixer is definitely in order. I would
    also tend to agree with the other votes for sticking to 4 track
    tape and getting more MIDI sequncing power. If you can't afford
    a big machine (MAC, PC, or maybe Atari?) then how about trying to
    pick up another dedicated sequencer. Another QX7 doubles your available
    memory and should be easy to sync to your other MIDI devices. Maybe
    some of the less expensive, out-of-production Roland seqs (MSQ-100)
    would be useful. You could do composing and editing on the QX7 and
    dump finished MIDI tracks to a less flexible seq.
    
    Rob
    

    
    Gotta say that the 8-ch Yamaha mixer KM02 is quiet,
    has 3 effects send/return in stereo, and ran me 
    around $225.
    
    Having 12 channels is nice, but try pricing them!!!!!
    
    Id be tempted to gang 2 KM02s together (thru an effects
    return to the mix bus or into 2 channels) and viola,
    a 16 (or 14) channel with maybe a tad additional noise
    on 8 of the channels.
    
    And put the remaining thousands of dollars saved into
    something else...
    
    ron
    

    

    Here is my response to Brad's base note that he sent by mail before
    posting in COMMUSIC.  Also there is some followup mail.  It's
    interesting that several points I made to him privately were
    posted by others here as well.


Brad,

	Good to hear from you!  Looks like you're going through the evolution
I followed.  First of all, it seems like your using up your 8000 notes
real quick.  Are you sequencing real time or step time?  If you are doing
it real time do you have a velocity sensitive keyboard with aftertouch
enabled?  Velocity sensitivity takes up more info than just note on/off's.
Aftertouch chews up gobs of memory.  Edd Cote has a QX7 and knows alot
about it.  He has a Mirage, MKS-30 (Roland JX3P in a box), DX21, RX type
drum machine and has no problem doing multi-MIDI-channel complex tunes
without running out of memory.  My old MSQ-700 had a 9600 note limit
and I rarely exceeded it (but I did lots of chaining it's 8 tracks).
Check into what's eating up your memory.

	You might think about upgrading your sequencer.  I have an MC-500
and love it.  It has real powerful editing features, 4-tracks, FSK sync,
MIDI clock, 40,000 notes in memory, 100,000 on disk, and the software is
disk based so updates and new programs will be made available.  You can
also store TR-707 MIDI data and TX7 patch data in it.  Also, its easy
to use.  It uses those 3.5" disks like the Mirage does.  Cost: $1100

	A Computer is also a good choice for sequencing depending on 
the software and hardare, but I'm not really up on what's good.  The advantage
of a computer is that you can also use it for Patch Librarian, Sampling
waveform editing, wordprocessing lyrics, games, etc.  I'm on a tube all
day long (Video fatigue) and was used to the MSQ-700 so upgraded to the 
MC-500 and dump all old data to it.  I don't know if you have a Mac or whatever 
already but if you did it might be a cheaper way to upgrade.

	Upgrading from 4-trk to 8-trk is expensive. Probably around $3000-4000
altogether, maybe cheaper if you go used.  Tape decks go for $1500 and up.
You would also need at least a 4-buss, 8-channel board, the more features -
the more money.  Akai makes the MG1212, that mixer - recorder combo that uses
those funny video cassette type tapes.  I think its around $2500 and have heard
good things about it.  Tascam also makes that 8-trk / 8 ch mixer combo
for $3000 but I've never heard it.

	I don't know what your budget is for the next year but if I had your
setup now, I'd find out what's up the sequncer first.  Then if I couldn't
afford to go more tracks, I would probably get a small stereo expansion
mixer (at least 12 channels - the more the merrier - you'll need them as 
you expand) with at least 2 auxilary sends (monitor send counts, it can be
used as an effects send).  I could plug both TX7's and the OB-Xa into 
four of those channels.  Then I'd take seperate outs out of the TR-707 
so I could do separate EQ's, effects, etc on each one, starting with Kick,
Snare, Hi-Hat, everything else panned left to right on the remaining stereo
outs for a total of 5 channels.  Hey, we're already up to 9 channels on
the expansion mixer!  I'd also rout effects returns back through channels
so I can add EQ, maybe reverb to the echo return, whatever.  The mixers
stereo outs would go into the 144 inputs.  Other channels would be for
guitar, vocals, guest keyboards, etc.
 
	This way you could MIDI up keys, bass and drums mixed to stereo on
your 4 track.  I still do this now on the 8-trk for test mixes and use 
the other tracks for trying vocal harmonies and guitar parts without having
to sync track and start from the beginning of the tape every time.  These
mixes sound decent, also.  You'll also learn alot about mixing this way.
All you'll need to do is get mixer and debug the sequencer problem.  If you
can't then get a new sequencer, sell the old one for a used digital delay
for the same price in the local Want-Adds.  You might find a deal on a mixer
in there also.

	What do you think?

Dave

PS - Mind if I put your mail and this reply in commusic after a little editing?
     Other noters might be facing this same perdicament.


   .....latter


>From:	DYO780::SCHAFER "Brad - Dayton OH SWS 513-898-0920  12-Jan-1987 1438" 12-JAN-1987 14:39
>To:	JUNIOR::DREHER,SCHAFER     
>Subj:	Off the record (or sequencer, as the case may be)...

>Hi Dave -

>Man, I never expected an encyclopedia of info - thanks!  It's nice to know that
>someone else has been down this road.  BTW - if you wanna post any of this
>discussion in COMMUSIC, feel free (or if you think I oughta, let me know).  I
>didn't post it initially because I wasn't sure how much interest the topic
>would generate.

>I also thought that I skunged 8K notes quite rapidly.  I sequenced a bass line
>(8th & 16th notes for 115 measures) taking the sequencer's defaults, which were
>aftertouch NO, velocity YES.  (Everything other than note on/off is meaningless
>anyway, since my only MIDI board is the Xa, which transmits no performance
>data.)  I then recorded another 115 measures of 16th notes, and attempted to
>follow up with another 115 x 16, which resulted in the QX7 becoming brain
>damaged.  I calculated that I was tracking around 6500 notes, and after RTFM,
>turned off velocity recording and (sob!) rerecorded the entire bloody thing.

>BTW - I always try to record in real time.  Step time is nice, but I'd rather
>play what I'm sequencing (call it pride - I dunno).

>In any event, after rerecording (and counting my notes a measure at a time), it
>turned out that I had tracked almost the limit in just 3 passes.  >8-( I like
>to throw in lots of counter-melodies and "embellishments", so I guess that I'll
>have to look at another sequencer.

>Have you used Edd's QX?  Do you find 2 tracks as limiting as I do?  I tend to
>think/write in patterns (I love programming the 707, but wish it had more
>patterns per group); Len seemed to indicate that you liked to write in a
>similar fashion.  Do you find the 4 tracks on the MC500 limiting?  Can you
>un-merge a track after merging it (e.g., strip out all info relating to MIDI
>channel 4 from track 3)?  How would you compare it to, say, the MSQ in terms of
>programming flow?  How fast can you load a sequence of, say, 15000 notes from
>disk?  Do you find the rhythm track useful or not?

    I've never used Edd's QX.  Since you can't unmerge tracks, I'd find this
    to be extremely limiting.  I don't find the MC-500 4 tracks limiting but
    had to change my programming style.  You can't 'chain' tracks like I did
    on the MSQ-700.  You have to program linear, like multi track tape.  It
    takes about 10 seconds to load a large song, and disk storage beats the
    hell out of loading from tape like the MSQ-700, which could take 5 or
    ten minutes if you had level problems restoring tape.  I haven't used
    the rhythm track since I haven't MIDI'ed my Linn yet (I will), but Len
    uses it alot. 

>(Assume thoughful tone) - Gee, I wonder if I could do a dump from the Xa over
>MIDI to the MC500?  Naahhhhh ...

>I've kicked around the idea of getting a MAC and some software, but the idea
>of sinking $2000 into a computer just for sequencer/patch librarian functions
>kinda galls me.  I, too, sit in front of a tube all day long and suffer from
>video fatigue, so I wouldn't be using it to play games or any of that crap.

>Reason I asked about tape decks is because a dude I jam with from time to time
>has been given an old TEAC 8 track unit with studio board and patch bay.  (It
>used to be in a Nashville studio owned by his uncle - he says it's in excellent
>shape.) He was talking about trading it for my 144 and an indeterminate dollar
>amount, since he "can't see any use for 8 tracks".  Think it's worth pursuing?
>He'll probably want between $500-$1000 in addition to my cassette deck.

    Depends on the condition of the 8-trk and whether the heads are worn
    and need replacing.  Definitly look into it.

>My budget for the coming year will be somewhere between $3-6K, although I'm not
>sure that I really want to spend all of it.  The only effects I currently have
>are buried in the Rockman clone I have, and they aren't too hot. Therefore, I'm
>thinking about picking up an SPX-90 (Profound has 'em for $495 or $525 - can't
>remember which).  I'm eventually interested in a sampler, but am not sure what
>to pick up.  I liked the ESQ-1, and the fact that it worked so well with the
>Mirage.  Since I don't have a "real" MIDI board, I'd like to get one, and the
>ESQ/Mirage combo looked nice, but I hear that there are problems recording
>these things.  You know anything?

    No, but if I had the money to blow on a sampler, I'd check out the new
    Roland S-50.  I was drooling over it at Wurlitzer's in Boston.

>Well, enough of this rambling.  It looks like my list of things to get goes
>like this:

>	Bigger sequencer
>	Mixer
>	Effects
>	MIDI keyboard
>	sampler
>	Maybe a new tape deck

    I think my priority would be the first three on the list.  From your
    most recent notes, if your really serious about 8-trks then buy a
    4 buss mixing board that can monitor 8 trks.  You got enough keyboard
    power.  Time to get your engineering and producing power together.

>Oops - almost forgot.  You may wanna tell Edd this: When you get close to the
>end of memory on the QX7, the letters "nF" start flashing.  If you don't quit
>almost immediately, you'll overflow the thing, will not be able to quantize,
>and will probably hose your sequence on the recording track (track 1).  For
>example, my 115 measure sequence in track one stopped at measure 24 during
>playback and left untold notes on.  A word to the wise ... 

> 8^)

   Well, that's about it.

   Dave

    Brad - What in he world are you writing?!?!?!?
    
    16th note bass patterns??
    
    Actually it's obvious how you're suckin' up your memory doing those
    kind of patterns. 8000/16 gives you 500 bars. If your doing 2 and
    3 parts at that rate the memory goes quick.
    
    The QX21 (or 7) is a low-end sequencer, no doubt about it. As such,
    it's a price/performance trade-off. You can get alot more sequencer
    but, you gotta pay...
    
    I've learned a couple ways to save on memory...
    
                         1. Don't sequence your drum tracks. Why lay
                            lay down a linear memory sucker when drum
                            machines can loop patterns?
    
                          2. As I said earlier, keep that temporary
                             buffer empty! Every time track 1 is quantized,
                             the contents are transferred to the temp
                             in case you quantized to an incorrect
                             value and want to recover your 'raw' data.
                             This ties in with the next point....
               
                          3. Use step mode if you can. I know it goes
                             against your grain, but if you're [Bquantizing
                             anyhow, what's the net loss except in pride?
                             Everytime you quantize you use up twice
                             as much memory as the track occupies. If
                             your doin' 100+ plus bars of 16th notes
                             in real time and then quantizing you just
                             used close to 50% of what you've got. 
                             Erasing the temp buffer gets it back, but
                             that's of little consolation when you just
                             lost 30 minutes work to the "nF"(W) symbol.
    
    Two track sequencing, from what I hear, is poor. I've never done
    anything but, so I'm not one to ask. In all honesty, I've never
    run into a problem that couldn't have been at least avoided with
    some planning. That's probably the biggest kick. You gotta plan
    ahead. 
    
    I've quite successfully sequenced stuff like "Sirius/Eye in The
    Sky" by Alan Parson's (complete with sequenced sampled lead guitar),
    Mozarts Sonata #2 (took over 40 hours). 8th note bass patterns under
    16th note leads aren't uncommon in dance/rock music. The Mozart
    piece got down to 32nds. I have yet to see the "nF" signal.
    
    If I was in your position (Oh, to have $6K to spend!), I'd put my
    priorities into recording gear, assuming your happy with your sound
    modules. The QX can take tape sync, so your memory just got 7 times
    bigger. 
    
    Another alternative I've considered, more for editing purposes than
    memory, would be a second QX. If nothing else, they're cheap. A
    second one slaved to the first would double your memory and also
    give you channel extract capabilities. Considering you can find
    used QXs for ~$150, that's a bit of bang for the buck. Add a data
    cassette recorder and the only thing you'll be spending lots of
    is time.
    
    Slow and ugly, but usable.
    
    Edd (also_slow_ugly_and_usable)

Re: .7

    Yeah, as a matter of fact, I AM writing 16th note bass patterns - and
    16th note 4ths (read: 3 tracks * 115 measures * 16th notes = 5520
    notes!).  Add some miscellaneous chords here and there, and boom!
    Lobotomy.

    BTW - thanks for the info on the quantize buffer.  I try to be clean
    enough to not quantize - unfortunately, the OB-Xa MIDI interface isn't
    the cleanest implementation in the world, and I'm almost forced to
    quantize just to make sure everything gets where it should be on time.
    (And, I don't sequence drum tracks (yet).) 

    You said the QX has tape sync??  Since when?  And how?  Thru the
    cassette interface?  Also, how does step time buy me anything over real
    time?  Does "nF" mean "near Full"?  I've thought about snagging another
    QX, but I'm not sure that solves all my problems - I still bloody have
    to deal with tape backup.  8-(

    To beat this all, I forgot to back up the sequence to tape and lost it.
    Oh yeah, and I got my wallet ripped off Saturday, and ... FAP! 


>8^( (who_feels_slow_and_ugly_and_useless)

    Tape sync is via an add-on like the Yammie YMC-10 or similar device
    doing FSK to MIDI.
    
    You'll save space using step time because you'll have no need to
    quantize and fill up the buffer. Anything in there takes away from
    the available memory. Just remember to dump it if you should get
    the nF thumbs down sign. 
    
    Of course, there is one thing we didn't discuss. Maybe your QX is
    faulty...
    
    Edd