Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    try keeping the drums seperate until the final mix.
    on your 4 track, at final mix, you could have
    
    track 1 drums
    track 2 lead vocal
    track 3 lead guitar
    track 4 everything else.
    
    	or,
    track 1 drums
    track 2 lead vocal
    track 3 1/2 everything else
    track 4 1/2 everything else
                                        
    	if that doesn't work, or is impossible, buy an 8track.
    :-)
    rik
    

    When I was doing 4 track stuff on my 244, I used exactly the strategy
    rik described (I went out and bought an 8 track!  ;^)): I kept the
    drums separate.  I used a TR-707 too.
    
    This may require some careful thought about your recording order
    and track assignments.  Specifically, in getting "everything else"
    onto track 4, given the drums are already on track 1 (I assume they
    have to be recorded first, as the drum machine sets the time base
    for everything else which is done live), you only have two tracks
    available (2 and 3) to mix down to 4 from.  You can get 3 separate
    parts down this way, adding the third as you mix tracks 2 and 3
    to 4.
    
    Try some EQ.  Consider using the other snare voice on the 707 -
    I think it sounds "crisper".
    
    Some (most?) recorders tend to introduce a little low end at each
    recording pass.  It's called "the bass hump", and is obvious in the
    record/playback frequency response curve; it's inherent to magnetic
    recording and can be minimized by careful design, but it's a fact
    of life and you learn to live with it.

    I think some of the "muddiness" I heard may also have been a side
    effect of distortion.  Try backing off your levels a bit.  This
    will mean a bit more noise, but I've found that noise is less
    objectionable than distortion and more easily masked by clean
    signal.  This is a "psychoacoustic" effect.  Distortion is *not*
    effectively masked by the absence of noise, though it is in fact a
    form of noise itself.

    len.
    

    Won't the position of a track on the tape contribute to the frequency
    response? (Even negligibly?)
    
    i.e. "Outside" tracks vs "inside" tracks? 
    
Edd

    No.  The only reason I know of to distinguish between edge tracks
    and other tracks is for sync purposes, and sometimes if you have
    a very hot track with a lot of high frequency transients (e.g.,
    a cymbal ride).  The problem is not frequency response but spillover
    onto an adjacent track.  It is like the crosstalk problem in stereo;
    if you record a really hot signal on track 1, you may be able to
    pick it up (maybe 60 db down) when you playback track 2.  I don't
    have any figures for actual adjacent track crosstalk on typical
    multitrack decks.  I suspect in most cases drawing a distinction
    between edge and inner tracks is just prudent conservatism, rather
    than an absolute necessity.  The problem obviously gets worse on
    narrower media (read "cassette") where the intertrack spacing is
    necessarily small.
    
    len.
    

    
    I agree with everything that's been said so far. I did notice one
    thing about your recording process, you record your drum tracks
    and bass tracks seperately, and then bounce them down to one track.
    Like Rik sez, it's good to leave the drum tracks seperate. That
    way you can pan the bass and kickdrum away from each other. If you
    really want to keep them on one track, though, you have to be very
    careful about the kickdrum and bass interacting with each other,
    and overloading that track. Spillover is common on low frequency
    "hot" sounds like bass and kickdrum as well as cymbals.
    
    CdH
    

    being limited to a 4 track set up with no hope of more in the
    forseeable future (unless the gods of employment favor me somehow)
    I've got severe limitations. I intend to try keeping the drums seperate
    until the final mix even though it costs me a track and will downsize
    the scale of my recording efforts....no more dual leads or harmony
    vocals....sigh
    
    dave

    	I agree with what peoply have said so far, especially keeping
    the drums on there own track.  You loose frequencies when you bounce
    them together with other tracks.  Also you're locking the mix in
    and if the drums are buried in the mix, there is no way to get them
    back.
    
    	Also, some EQ tips:
    
    	1)  Take separate sends from your TR-707 for snare, kick drum,
            hi-hat, toms, and what ever else you have channels for.
            This allows for seperate EQ and effects.
    
        2)  For kick drum, add a 6db boost at 80-100 htz for the 'boom',
            cut 3db at 400 htz (low midrange), and add 8db at 6K htz
            for the 'click'.  Use no reverb or delay.
    
        3)  For toms, add low end at 150-200 htz and cut mids at 
            700 htz.  Add around 3K-10K for 'brightness' and 'crispness'
            What wants cardboard toms.  Also you don't want to have
            mid-range for drums because that's where guitars, keys and
            vocals are and it'll 'muddy' up the sound.  Add a little
            reverb.  Also, a short 50-100 ms delay can be a nice effect
            on toms.
    
    	4)  For hi-hat and cymbals, if at possible, use a graphic EQ
            and cut every frequency below 5K, and I mean radical EQ.
            Bring those bars all the way down.  Midrange on cymbals
            sounds real harsh and clutters the sound.  Little or no
            reverb, though some reverb makes it sound more 'live'.
    
        5)  For snare, add 4db at 200K, and boost 3k-10K to you're liking.
            Gated reverb is real popular on snare these days but a spring
            reverb can sound ok if you EQ the 'ping' out from the reverb
            return.  A 50-70 ms delay can 'fatten' up a snare's sound.
            Make sure when record the snare until you thinks it's just
            a little too loud.  You won't think so, once the other tracks
            are laid.
    
    In general, make sure that the drums don't contain alot of mid range,
    but lots of bottom and high end.  Leave the mid-range for the tone
    and melody instruments.  A little compression an toms, kick, and
    snare might allow you to print more on tape without peaking out
    those overload led's, but too much will take away 'punch'.
    
    Hope this helps...
    
    Dave

    
    Man, it must be nice to have piles of 3 band parametrics laying
    around...
    
    Just one would be nice 8^)
    
    CdH
    

    Well, they're not really parametrics.  If I recall correctly, Dave's
    got a Tascam 312, which has 4 band eq (two shelving, two sweepable
    peaking) on each channel.  Tascam also makes a nice 4*4band full
    parametric rack mount unit.
    
    Even that cute little 244/246 has 3 band eq on each input channel,
    two of which are sweepable!
    
    len (whose 216 is jealous of dave's 312, but wants to grow up to
    be a 320).
    

    I got a ten band mono (mxr) and a ten band stereo (both graphic)
    that will do. I'm gonna experiment some this weekend if possible
    to see what works best on my set up.
    
    Thanks for all the advice.
    
    dave maybe less muddy now.....

    Dave, if you don't have enough pots for multiple bands of EQ,
    try just a 3-5db boost at 10Khz. This will accentuate the 'stick
    hit' and hotten up the cymbals... then, if you choose to do some
    track bouncing, at least the drums are starting out with some
    sacrificable high end.
    
    km

    How about trying to record Acoustic Drums.  I have just about
    finished my 11 songs and what I did was use drum machine to keep
    the beat, and then have a friend learn the songs on his drum set.
    
    I used 5 mic's on a set that had 3 toms,kick,snare,hi hat and 3
    other cymbals.  I took me 45 minutes to play with the mic's for
    good stereo separation. I have a Tascam 8 track so I was able
    to have stereo drums with a spare track for effects, but someone
    with a 4 track could do it all on one track with a little preparation.
    The Beatles did......
    
    The only problem I had was that my drum machine (el cheapo Dr. Rhythm)
    has a habit of speeding up and slowing down (but only sometimes).
    This was a slight problem for the drummer, but if you have a good
    drum machine to keep the beat, which I soon will have, you'd be
    all set. 
    
    I have yet to hear a drum machine that even comes close to the real
    thing.  (...MY OPINION...) I have listened to Tape I.
    
    As opinions go mines no better than anyone elses, these have just
    been my inputs.  Besides I take more pride in having things done
    the old fashion way, were the skill is in the musician not the
    programmer.
    
    Mike

    I can only add one further suggestion:
    
    In my opinion, the place you lose sound quality, especially highs
    is when you bounce tracks.  The more times any one instruments is
    re-recorded the worse it gets.
    
    The way I've done things so far (and I'm just a beginner) is to
    never just mix a bunch of tracks down to one without SIMULTANEOUSLY
    recording a new track during the process.
    
    The new track should be something that you won't have to make edits
    (punches) to.  Sequenced MIDI stuff is best, but if you've got a
    a player who can do everything in one shot (doesn't have to be the
    first take) that's ok too.  On my deck, I can even get a away with
    a few punches during a mixdown here and there (mostly long punches
    like redoing a whole verse, etc.)
    
    Problem is you have to have your mix, eq, etc. before you do this.
    This usually means making a few experiments to set the levels on
    various things before you do it "for real".
    
    One thing that I also do is boost the highs for any track which
    I know will be bounced.   I just set the eq for the highs as high
    as it will go (I can back it down during mixdown if I need to but
    for a lot of things I find I don't even NEED to because the
    re-recording takes enough of the highs away anyway).
    
    Does anyone else do this (add in stuff during mixdowns)?
    
    	db

    You're right that you can't punch in a fix, but you *can* redo the
    entire track - the stuff that's being bounced is still there until
    you record over it.  And, yeah, complete retakes are a drag, but
    you trade money and equipment for time and frustration, right?
    
    I think my analysis of "what's the maximum number of sources you
    can record in n generations on m tracks" somewhere in this conference
    assumed adding a new source at each bounce/mixdown.
    
    len.