Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Is 16th note resolution the best the 707 can do?!?!
    
    Not being familiar with this beast at all, I can only pass on what
    I've learned with my RX-21, which has down to 24th note (I'm sure)
    and possibly 32nd note resolution. 
    
    I think a sequencer may help (depending naturally on how tight THAT
    will resolve. Drum machines, I believe operate on a "pulses since
    last event" type scheme, while sequencers assign an event to a "time"
    type address. (This is getting a bit fuzzy, someone bail me out!!!)
    
    Anyhow, instead of storing your patterns in the 707, you'd store
    them as "Note-Ons and note-offs" on the sequencer. Depending on
    the minimum quantization value of the sequencer, you're problem
    *should* be solved...
    
    OK, len, now tell him how to really do it...... ;^)
    
    Edd

One of the many reasons I bought a Yamaha RX11 after my experience with Roland
on their TRash-909 was that the Yamaha has 1/192nd note resolution available,
plus several swing settings (50% --> 73%, I believe).  Not to mention the
sounds.  I'm surprised Roland didn't addthis functionality with their current
generation of drum machines.


				Mark

    You pretty much had it Edd.
    
    First, TR-707 tape dumps contain the entire machine state; i.e.,
    all tracks and all patterns.  I am not aware of any way to save
    just one track to tape, but I haven't read the manual cover to cover
    in quite a while.

    The TR-707's internal sequencer's time resolution is set by the
    "SCALE" parameter.  You can set step sizes of 1/3 beat (i.e., eighth
    note triplets), 1/4 beat (sixteenths), 1/6 beat (16th note triplets)
    and 1/8 beat (32nd notes).  A pattern can have up to 16 steps, but
    you can chain adjacent patterns together for longer or high resolution
    bars.  The pattern length is set by the "LAST STEP" parameter.
    
    If you need finer resolution (e.g., to do things like quintuplets)
    than 32nd notes, you will have to resort, as Edd suggests, to an
    external sequencer.  You can program that sequencer in step mode
    or real time.  You will probably have to do the latter unless your
    sequencer is smarter than most.  The resolution of most sequencers
    in real time mode is limited by their internal clock rate which
    often is the same as the MIDI clock rate, i.e., 24 clocks per quarter
    note.  Note that this is incommensurable with quintuplets, septuplets,
    etc..  24 clocks per quarter note corresponds to 64th note triplets.
    
    What exactly are you trying to do, Dave?  Send me mail if you want
    to get more detailed.
    
    Note also that the TR-707 ignores note offs, but you usually don't
    get any choice about sending them.  The note durations you program
    into the sequencer can thus be anything convenient (usually this
    defaults to the step size in step mode; in real time it's however
    long you hold down the key).
    
    len.
    

    Re.-1 The Tr707 ignores note offs.
    
    Does it send note offs ?
    
    				Paul.
    
    

    More on clocks and resolution (just saw Mark's note) - a 707 will
    play a note whenever you send it to it; MIDI input is played when
    it shows up, regardless of where the 707 happens to be in its clock
    cycle.  In that sense, the 707 (and most all other drum machines)
    has arbitrary resolution.  It's their internal sequencers that impose
    resolution limits.
    
    A sequencer can send MIDI commands any time it wants to - the clock
    messages are intended to synchronize other devices, not define an
    ultimate time resolution.  I.e., a sequencer can send messages
    between clock messages at whatever time it wants to.  The issue
    is how finely it quantizes time internally with respect to scheduling
    output.  Mark's point is that the RX11's internal clock resolves
    down to 8 clocks per MIDI clock period (it's 192 clocks per quarter
    note, not 192nd note resolution).  This is better than 24 clocks
    per quarter note, but still incommensurable with quintuplets,
    septuplets, triplets of triplets, etc..

    Mark - in step mode, can you actually program 192 events per quarter
    note?  If not, the distinction is academic.
    
    I think Mark's implied assessment of the TR909 was a little harsh,
    as it predates the RX11 by about two years, and was replaced by
    a machine that costs half what an RX11 does.  Be that as it may,
    I agree that most drum machines' internal sequencers could do a
    better job of dealing with non-power-of-two subdivisions of the
    beat.  Must be another case of arrested development.
    
    len.
     

    re .4 - I honestly don't know, but I'd assume it has to.  The 707
    is not normally used as an originator of MIDI data (i.e., a
    controller); the 909 could be used to control a synth, but I'm not
    sure a 707 can.  On the 909, the gate time is the step size, but
    again, using the 909 this way is a special case.  I'll check the
    MIDI specs on the machines tonight.
    
    len.
    

    Len
    
    The reason I ask is, having bought a Tr505 with its excellent Midi
    implementation I can play all sorts of tricks using the drum machine
    as a sort of sub-mid controller. E.G. Set up A CZ patch to add some
    Simmons type sounds to the Tom Toms and also drive the RX21 with note
    on's rather than having to bother setting up seperate drum patterns
    for both machines. I have tried the latter of these and it work's
    well. I could imagine the former suffering problems if no Note Offs
    are sent. Perhaps I'll just have to try it and see.
    
    						Paul. 

    re: What I'm trying to do...again...still...or whatever
    
    I've been trying to program this for as long as I've owned the 707,
    with varying results predominantly failure.
    
    The problem is simple(to explain sort of) I'm working with a slow song 
    ~80 bpm that has three distinct parts, a bridge, the verse and the
    chorus. It'sa standard 4/4 but the bridge has a very odd rhythm on the 
    guitar. If I program a straight 4/4 bass drum it works, sort of, for the
    whole song, but clashes with the bridge which has the odd emphasis
    on the guitar, I;ve tried doubling the bpm and lengthening the measure
    with little success, changing form one "scale" to another has some
    real management problems, I even tried quadrupling the measure lenght
    and the Bpm to fix the problem with little success. i think I need
    to get my 64 MIDI'd up soon to handle this. I may try and "play"
    the 707 via my JX3, right after I build a MIDI cable tonight. It
    may be easier than trying to program the whole thing.
    
    Re: memory dump  thanks I was concerned that I would lose everything
    if I reloaded something I had programmed over.     
    
    Also any recommendations on a second drum synth that will provide
    better sounding cymbols and some basic latin percussion as well?
    I realize I want my cake and eat it too....
    
    thanks all
    
    dave

    The only drum box with decent sounding cymbals (to my overwrought
    ears anyway) is the LinnDrum.  For good percussion, check out the
    Roland TR-727.  Note that the LinnDrum devotes fully HALF its storage
    capacity to the crash cymbal!
    
    re .8 - I still don't understand your problem.  What is it about
    the rhythm that's causing the problem?  Can you notate the guitar
    rhythm?  Changing tempo and using smaller steps sounds like overkill.
    Incidentally, I change scale in tunes all the time, and have had
    no "management problems"; I feel like I'm missing something important.
    
    Re TR-707/727 tape dumps - if you reload from tape you will lose
    everything in the machine; i.e., you cannot load only one track
    from tape.
    
    len.
    

    I hope to get several hours on this this weekend...mayhaps by Monday
    I'll have it sorted out. If not I'll get back to you.....
    I'm gonna put more time into the scale changes, seems everytime
    I do it the tempo slows or speeds up drastically, maybe I'm the
    one missing something.
    
    Anyway the problem, and I thnk I didn't make it clear, is that the
    guitar rhythm falls between two of the 16 beat steps no matter how
    I spread it out.
    
    I was afraid the linn was the only cymbol choice, out of my budget
    at this time. I was also hoping that something cheaper than the
    727 woudl provide the latin percussion......ah to be more wealthy
    than I now am. :-)
    
    dave

    You could check out the RX21L which is a latin version of the RX21.
    It sells about 200 pounds in the U.K. so it should be about $250
    over there. As an owner of a Tr505 and an RX21 I have to say that
    you would not find the RX quite as easy to program. No groups or
    chains available,but you *can* put repeats into tracks, which I don't
    seem to be able to do with the TR. Am I missing something?
                     
    			    Paul.	
    

    Dave,
    
    Your problem seems to be you can't get resolution to a power or
    multiple of 3. You're stuck at 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64...... and you
    need 6, 12, 24, 48.
    
    Can your drum machine accept and of those quantization factors?
    
    Edd

    Yes, a 707 can do 3 and 6 steps per beat.
    
    Dave - the tempo does not change when you select a different scale;
    what happens is the steps come faster or slower to conform to the
    new resolution at the established tempo.
    
    E.g., let's suppose the tempo is 120 beats per minute.  That's
    2 beats per second.  If the step size is 16th notes (4 per beat),
    there will (indeed *must*) be 8 steps per second.  If you select
    the scale for 8th note triplets (12 steps per bar, 3 steps per beat),
    the steps must now come 6 per second, which is slower than for 16ths,
    as it should be - 8th note triplets are "farther apart" than 16ths.
    Similarly, if you select the scale for 16th note triplets (24 per
    4 beat bar, 6 per beat), your step rate will now be 12 per second,
    and if you select 32nd note resolution, the step rate must be 16
    per second.  Don't forget for each scale, one step represents a
    different time value, and you must also set the "last step" for
    the correct bar length (e.g., 4/4 bars are 12 steps long for 8th
    note triplet resolution, 16 steps for 16ths, 24 steps for 16th
    triplets, and 32 for 32nd note resolution).  Since the 707 only
    allows patterns to be up to 16 steps long, full 4/4 bars at 16th
    note triplet and 32nd note resolution must use two patterns.
    
    Paul - I checked my 707 and it can send output its tracks as MIDI
    messages.  You get two possible encodings, one that makes sense
    for Roland drum machines, and one that allows you to get at all
    notes within about an octave and a half's range.  It sends NOTE
    OFFs at the end of the step.  You can't get gate times longer than
    one step time (i.e., no tie capability).  Also, it disables its
    audio outputs in this mode!  Stupid move on Roland's part, as you
    could easily suppress the audio externally, but if they shut it
    off inside you can't use the MIDI output to double voices.  The
    MIDI documentation claims it sends a range of velocity values,
    but I hooked up a velocity sensitive patch and could not hear any
    difference between unaccented, accented and doubly accented notes. 

    len.
    

    Len, 
    
     Thank you, I'm gonna go hole up with the thing this weekend if
    I can escape my other landowner duties and see if I can make this
    thing help. I was looking at scale all wrong.
    
    dave