Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    I've used the FSK sync built into most of my Roland gear.  It does
    everything I need.  SMPTE would be overkill.  My basic technique
    is to figure out all the parts, lay down a sync track corresponding
    to the longest part (actually, from beginning to end of the piece),
    then record whole tracks (no punch ins necessary, the sequencers
    don't make mistakes).  No autolocate necessary.  No autopunchin/out
    necessary.  No $1000 sync boxes necessary.  Puzzle solved to *my*
    satisfaction.
    
    len.
    
    

    I agree with Len.  I've recently started using FSK (Frequency Shift
    Key) and it is a lot more reliable than PPQ (Pulse Per Quarter-note).
    I had some problems using PPQ with level settings which would cause
    the machine reading the sync tone to start lagging behind a touch
    be the end of a song.  The MC-500 has FSK built in.  I got an SBX-10
    ($300) to sync the MC-500 to the Linn Drum which only accepts PPQ.
    The SBX reads in MIDI clock from the MC-500 and sends 48 PPQ to the
    Linn (There is now a MIDI upgrade for the Linn by JLCooper which
    would accept MIDI clock and Song Position Pointer and allow MIDI
    dumps to disk on the MC-500 for $300, oh well, too late now).
                                                      
    John Sauter uses an SBX-80 ($1000) to sync to tape which uses
    SIMPTE.  I never used SIMPTE before so I can't comment.
    
    DD  
      

    re -1: len, when you're playing the FSK tone in order to record
    a track on the open-reel recorder, is the FSK tone, uh, in 'sync'
    mode? that is, do you monitor it/feed it to the sequencer(s) off
    the playback head or the record head ? I see some funny syncing
    problems if it wasn't monitored in (TEAC 3340 'Simul-Sync') sync
    mode.
    
    karl moeller

    re .3
  
    Yes, I read the sync track in sync mode.  Here's the typical sequence.
    
    Route sync out from MIDI master clock device to track 8.  Start
    recorder, (recording carrier or pilot tone), then start MIDI master
    clock device (MMCD henceforth).  I'm also probably listening to
    something else driven of the MMCD's MIDI output so I can tell roughly
    where I am.  No audio is being recording though, just monitored.
    This allows me to modulate the tempo (by hand) as appropriate. 
    At end of "song", MMCD will stop.  Then I stop the recorder.
    
    Route track 8 monitor (sync) output to MMCD sync in.  Set up audio
    routing for track 1 etc.  Put MMCD in sync mode.  Start MMCD.  It
    will "wait" for sync track.  Start recorder, playing back (in sync mode)
    track 8, recording on track 1.  When sync starts, MMCD starts and
    slaved MIDI device makes audio for track 1.  

    Etc.  Note that the playback response of the 38 in sync mode (i.e.,
    playback from the same head that is recording) is good enough that
    I almost never use "reproduce" mode except for mixdowns.
    
    len.
    

    Re .4
    
    Same way I do it...
    
    DD

    
    Question, is FSK the same sync signal that comes out of the Roland
    TR-707 drum machine that is used for sync to tape?
    
    Also, do either of these provide location information; what I mean
    is, do the codes have unique numbers for each pulse(?) like smpte
    or if you start playing back the tapedeck in the middle of the song,
    does the sequencer/drum machine just start at the beginning?  
                 
    Fredric   {DVINCI, PCASSO, SCOTTY}::CERTO

    The TR707/727/909 tape sync is FSK.  I don't know if it's teh same
    FSK in eack case, or if they're compatible with the FSK that the
    MSQ-100 and MSQ-700 use.  If Roland was "smart" they would be, but...
    
    No, there is no position information in this stuff.  Not only will
    the drum machine start from the beginning, it will probably miss
    a few beats while it tries to sync up with the "coming up to speed"
    sync track.
    
    Note that Roland's FSK will not sync at extreme tempos (i.e., a
    707 can play faster than it can sync to).
    
    len.
    

    In the KEYBOARD issue on recording a couple of months ago, one article
    noted that different manufacturers used different FSK codes and
    frequencies, and that in at least one case, different products from
    the same manufacturer were incompatible.
    
    David
    

    ... I see in an ancient note (253) that John Sauter has an SBX-80
    which generates/reads SMPTE. John, would you post a short summary
    of this device's capability here, or if you've done that elsewhere,
    tell me where to go. (what a straight line, eh?)

	Here's the scenario: IN THE SEQUENCER, there are 2 tracks 
recorded: One piano track, and one for the sampler.
SEQ
TRK      ---------> Time -------------------------------->
1 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx--all piano,same patchxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxEND
2 cccclarinetcccc|vvvvvvvvvviolinvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv|chhhhhhhhhorussssssssssEND

Assume that clarinet, violin and chorus patches can't all fit into the
sampler's memory simultaneously. The patch changes are imbedded in the
sequence track. Clarinet and violin are okay in memory, but the choir
waveform is just TOO massive to fit with the others...

I stripe the mysterious SYNC TONE onto track 4 of the 4track recorder.
Rewind. Since SEQ TRK 1 is always going to be piano, and the piano synth
(Roland MKS-20) can't play anything else, let's say that the piano track
never hits 4track tape. It will sync along right up to when it's dubbed
to stereo.

So: SYNC TONE on Tapetrack 4. Begin to record SEQ TRK2 onto Tapetrack1.
We're cool right up to where the vvvvvviolin section stops and the 
choir begins. Another picture:

SEQ
TRK      ---------> Time -------------------------------->
1 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx--all piano,same patchxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxEND
2 cccclarinetcccc|vvvvvvvvvviolinsvvvvvvvvvvvvvv|chhhhhhhhhorussssssssssEND
TAPE
TRK
1 cccclarinetcccc|vvvvvvvvvviolinsvvvvvvvvvvvvvv|
2 empty                                STOP TAPE^
3 empty
4 ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssyncsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssEND

Now, I swap sampler patches and get the CHOIR up and playable. If I understand
the various SYNC schemes correctly, here's where we diverge radically.

FSK/MIDI clock: must REWIND tape to beginning of piece, play right up to
                the punchin point, and PUNCH IN the chorussss on Tapetrk 1.
                If I missed it, must REWIND again and play up to the 
                punchin point. Major drag on long pieces.

SMPTE: Hit RECORD on the tape deck. The sequencer was stopped at the same
       place as the tape, and starts up at the same place as the tape.
       Major bux to avoid rewind/play scenario.

Any comments/suggestions? Am I missing something major??

karl

    I think you understand it right Karl.  That's the main appeal of
    SMPTE (and MIDI song position pointer, which remains mostly
    unimplemented to date, but there's hope...; just replace all the
    MIDI sequencing gear you already have!).  Of course, if you do video
    or movies, SMPTE is an absolute requirement.
    
    I once spec'ed a MIDI clock box that would count bars and beats
    and encode position markers (say, 8 distinct places) without actually
    resorting to time code.  Sort of a poor man's SMPTE.  I couldn't
    figure out how to make the insides work.  With such a box you could
    say "do an auto punchin at marker 5" to do the sort of thing you're
    asking for.  (This was motivated by my Poly-800 (long since gone)'s
    toy sequencer's 256 event limitation.)

    len.
    

    My understanding is the same as your's Karl. SMPTE allows you to
    resync and punch-in/punch-out at any point. FSK sync only allows
    you to go from the beginning.
    
    Using SMPTE as the main sync clock means if you have devices which
    respond to MIDI song pointer, I can sync them through a SMPTE-to-MIDI
    box which supports MIDI song pointer.  I believe the SBX-80 is one
    of those devices. 

    		Derek

    Sorry to be so long responding; I've had to devote some time to
    work lately.  :-)
    
    The Roland SBX-80 has MIDI IN and OUT, SMPTE IN and OUT, Audio IN, a
    metronome and a front panel.  SMPTE OUT is used to initialize track 8
    of the 8-track recorder to contain the SMPTE pattern. After the track
    is initialized you should wire track 8 out of the recorder directly to
    SMPTE IN, bypassing the mixer.  At least on my mixer I get an
    objectionable amount of crosstalk if I let the SMPTE signal go through
    it. 
    
    When the SBX-80 is listening to SMPTE on track 8 it sends MIDI CLOCK
    messages on MIDI OUT.  Using the front panel you can also send MIDI
    START, MIDI STOP, MIDI CONTINUE, MIDI Song Position Pointer and MIDI
    Song Number (not sure of the exact name of this last; the intent is
    that the sequencer loads a sequence from disk.  No sequencer that I am
    aware of implements it, not even mine, which does have MIDI Song
    Position Pointer).
    
    Also using the front panel you can specify the number of beats per
    minute as a function of time--there is a memory which holds the tempo
    at each beat.  To specify a tempo you can either use a numeric keypad,
    a dial, a tap button, or beats from Audio IN.  This last feature
    is said to be useful when matching a rhythm for which you have only
    an audio record: filter out all but the beats, and use Audio IN
    to measure them.  I've never used this feature myself.
                      
    Another front panel feature lets you specify the start time in terms of
    the SMPTE time.  When this time is reached the SBX-80 will send MIDI
    Start and begin sequencing through its temo memory.  At the end of its
    tempo memory it will send MIDI Stop.  This allows you to "layer"
    several sounds in exact positions on the tape, even if they must start
    after the beginning of the song.  This can be important if your
    sequencer can't hold even one track of your song: you can divide the
    song into "movements", and record each separately. This feature is the
    major reason I went to SMPTE. 
    
    MIDI IN is used to receive a "dump" message.  The SBX-80 responds
    by dumping its tempo memory to MIDI OUT.  I think it can also dump
    and load its tempo memory using an audio recorder, but I've never
    used that feature.
    
    This is all from memory, so may be slightly inaccurate on the details.
    If anybody is interested I can circulate the manual.  It's in "Japanese
    English", but does describe all the features, in detail.
        John Sauter

    Thanks, John. Approximate cost for the unit is.....

    As indicated in an earlier reply, about $1000.  However, last time
    I visited Daddy's in Nashua they had one on sale.  I don't recall
    the price; might have been around $800.
    
    I forgot to mention, it also has Roland DIN sync out.  I don't use
    that, since I'm straight MIDI.
        John Sauter

    I'm straight too !

    Remember this note ? Is anyone using a Yamaha QX-10 sync device
    ? Any idea what tone is recorded on the tape ? 
    
    And, whether it's QX-10 or Roland SBX-10, how would noise reduction 
    impact on the tone ? I have a FOSTEX A8LR with builtin Dolby 'C'..
    
    whaddya think ? Will it work ? 
    
    karl

    Everything I have read or heard on the subject says *DO NOT* use
    any form of NR on sync tracks.  Now, theoretically, all the NR is
    *supposed* to do is lower the noise and not affect the signal in
    any (other) way; in practice the problem is that *some* of the signal
    is going to look like "noise" to the NR processor, and so will get
    altered.  These alterations are generally considered to be acceptable
    for musical signals, considering the overall reduction in noise
    (i.e., for a big reduction in noise, we accept a modest increase
    in some undefined form of distortion), and the ear/brain's willingness
    to hear what it wants to rather than what's really there, but sync
    trackers don't have brains and literal minded as they are whatever
    distortion the NR process introduces is considered to be unacceptable
    for sync signals.
    
    Be that as it may, I have on occasion NRed sync tracks by accident,
    and had no more trouble getting things to lock up than usual.  I
    have found the MC-500 to be very forgiving in this regard; I have
    have had essentially *no* trouble syncing it to tape, NR or not.

    I *have* had trouble syncing my SBX-10 to a sync track written by
    Dave Dreher's SBX-10; whether this is a problem of interunit
    variability or not I don't know - *his* SBX-10 synced to it
    (eventually), and I haven't yet tried redoing the whole exercise
    on mine.
    
    len.
    

    The MC500 (and the TR707, which I also have synced to tape with
    no problems) both use FSK.  The SBX-10 sync is a click.  You pays
    your money and you takes your chances.   
    
    I have run FSK sync through a digital delay with no problems.
    
    However, I can no longer read MSQ-100 data (FSK) stored a year ago
    on cassette.
    
    What kina 8 track you got that makes NR an all-or-nothing proposition?
    
    len.
     

    re -1.. the FOSTEX A8LR, 1/4" 8 track, has ONE integral Dolby 'C'
    switch.. you know, binary.. all trax on, all trax off. SOME of us
    can afford twin 4-channel dbx encoders/decoders.. sniff..
    
    I assume John Sauter uses his FOSTEX A8 and SBX-80 sync tone. I 
    wondered if he just kisses off the Dolby 'C' when syncing, and 
    if he's still speaking to me..
    
    karl

    I used my SBX-80 several months ago to record SMPTE on track 8
    of the Fostex A8 referred to in 422.20.  The noise reduction cannot
    be defeated per-track, but I have never had any trouble syncing
    to it.  A while ago I looked at the signal on an oscilloscope:
    it had significantly less voltage than the "live" output from the
    SBX-80, but it didn't seem distorted in any obvious way.
    
    As an experiment I put the output of the tape deck through my mixer
    and tried deliberate distortion using the equalizer.  In order to
    get the SBX-80 to fail to sync I had to distort the signal so badly
    that it didn't look anything at all like the original on the 
    oscilloscope.
    
    I haven't used FSK for a long time (since I got the SBX-80) so I
    don't have any experience trying to abuse it.  However, FSK is clearly
    a lot more susceptable to errors than SMPTE, since errors accumulate
    with FSK, whereas SMPTE corrects on each good frame.
    
    I don't understand why Karl Moeller wonders if I am still speaking
    to him.  Karl: If you offended me I was either too dumb to understand
    or I've forgotten the offense.  In spite of my bizarre musical tastes
    ("Top of the World") I'm still here.
        John Sauter

    I stopped in and grilled my Yamaha salesrep on tape-to-MIDI sync
    devices.. he dragged out a YMC-10 (I think) $100..
    
    I confided my concern.. he swears he's also got a FOSTEX A8, and
    claims that all ya do is boost the highs (~10KHz) a few DB before
    recording the FSK sync tone.
    
    The sync tone itself warbles between .9Khz and 1.9Khz. Not very
    high. But it's the edges of the square waves that must be preserved.
    He claims it's made to work on Yamaha's own 4-track cassette unit..
    
    One more layer of complexity.. let's say I have the sync tone on
    track 8 on the FOSTEX, and have indeed laid some music, one sequencer
    pass, on the FOSTEX as well. It's now time to do some more on the
    sequencer... rather than torture the transport on the FOSTEX, I
    would LIKE to transfer to cassette ! 
    
    Huh? Mix all audio to cassette Left channel, transfer FSK tone to 
    cassette Right channel. Line out of Cassette right driving Sync box, 
    (sync box driving sequencer), Cassette Left to mixer so I can
    hear what I've played before.. all this to keep from running the
    multitrack master tape past the heads too many times.. and of course,
    reduce wear-and-tear on the 8track transport.

    So that's what I'm gonna do, right there in the store.. maybe..
    If I get a money-back guarantee I might take it home and try it.
    
    Comments, suggestions ?
    
    karl    

    Are it gonna bleed all over when on skinny cassette tape?
    
    Edd

    Hey man! Back off ! I've got Nakamichis !

    Oh, how silly of me to forget that the laws governing interchannel
    crosstalk are rescinded on tape decks with 4 syllable names!
    
    Beg yo' fo'givins, guv'na.....
    
    Edd

    Be sure to get the money-back guarantee in writing.
        John Sauter

    Dear Edd:                                                      
    
    I am not too concerned for the integrity and crosstalk of audio
    and sync on my cassette decks, because the Nakamichi 1000
    and 600 have better signal to noise and crosstalk specs than my
    old TEAC 3340 running at 15ips.
    
    Ectually, the cassette intermix, audio left/sync tone right will
    be used for a guide and sync track only when adding tracks on the MAC's
    sequencer. Obviously I'll mix the sequencer-driven synths to the 
    FOSTEX 8track when ready. And, of course, with this
    audio/sync/sequencer scheme I can multiply my available synths by 
    8.. 7 Audio trax on the FOSTEX plus 3 'virtual' instruments when 
    mixing down to stereo...
    
    My three synths being the Roland MKS-20 Digital Piano, Yamaha Fb01,
    and rackmount E-Mu Systems' EMAX. So that's a total of 24 instruments
    used in the recording. Except that both the EMAX and the Fb01 CAN
    be up to 8 individual instruments playing individual lines within
    EACH track... (16x8)+8=136 possible instruments in 8 tracks...
    
                                 NIRVANA
    
    signed, addicted consumer

    
    This whole thing begs a couple of questions which are beginning
    to confuse, nay occupy my thoughts considerably. I have been discussing
    these things with Zayed Hanna and Andrew Norton in the past few
    days and am beginning to wonder? It does relate to Sync tones honest.
    
    Being a simplistic chap I have never used the sync tones available
    on any of my equipment (other than to check that they really worked)
    I have always gone for the approach of trying to get as close to
    a final sequenced mix as possible on tracks 1 and 2 of my 144 leaving
    3 and 4 for the odd vocal and guitar part. I have even been known
    to play a guitar part along with the sequencer and record it onto
    tracks 1 and 2 in stereo. I have generated reasonably pleasing results
    with this approach and have not yet reached the stage where my musical
    capabilities have surpassed that which I can achieve technically.
    I wouldn't really know what to do with 38 instruments on an 8 track
    mix. 
    
    O.K. the question.
                    
    What would using sync tracks achieve for me and why should I/we
    (this includes the above mentioned noters) go 8 track at all. Why
    do you (Karl/Len etc..) feel that 8 tracks is a requirement. I still
    have the budget for the move but don't want to spend without
    understanding the functional objective. 
    
                                	Paul.
    				
                                     
    

    Well, Paul, valid questions all.
    
    I've had a 4track TEAC for years. Assuming that track 4 is tied
    up with the sync tone, that leaves 3 independent MONO tracks free,
    plus of course the 'virtual' tracks from the synth modules, driven
    by sequencer tracks, during mix-to-stereo. There CAN be 'lots' of mono
    synth voices/lines going on in this scenario.
    
    Though I now have 3 synths, two of which are all the way from 8note 
    polyphonic single voice, to 8 single-note mono voices, I still feel
    cramped within 3 audio/1 virtual track.
    
    Time to confess, this has more to do with STEREO than anything else.
    Only a fanatic would sequence over 100 mono voice lines into a
    sequencer.. what I *truly* wish to do is have 4 independent STEREO
    mixes, plus one mono.. remember, 7 audio trax available (8 is sync)
    So, stereo mix A, trax 1&2, B, 3&4, C, 5&6, one mono on track 7,
    then, when mixing to stereo cassette or 1/2 track, one more additional
    stereo 'virtual' track.. like having 4 1/2 stereo 'takes' on one
    piece.
    
    karl moeller

    Well, I use about 75% of my 8 track for things that require yoomin
    beans to make them work.  Likely, mainly, my voice.  I have recently
    done a whole bunch of things with 5 or 6 tracks of vocals.  The
    "extra" tracks allow me to go back and punch in parts after I've
    heard how everything sounds all together.
    
    So I just run all the synths and drum machines down to 2 tracks
    (I am as enamoured of stereo as Mr. Moeller, but have found that
    4 sets of instruments spread across the stereo stage, as opposed
    to localized somewhere within that stage, results in a kind of acoustic
    fog, which while occasionally desirable is often impenetrable).
    Sometimes I wish I hadn't done that, as I can't control individual
    instrument balance at mixdown time, and my balance judgements while
    often good are sometimes off enough to require doing the whole thing
    over again.
    
    Sometimes I use separate tracks because all the sounds I want to
    use together come from the same synth.  This requires a sync track,
    and a sync track on a 4 track leaves only three tracks left, not
    a whole lot of flexibility.
    
    Finally, I have to admit that the raw performance of my dbx'ed Tascam
    38 on 1/2" tape at 15 ips had something to do with it.  No cassette
    deck, no matter how many syllables in its name, can touch it.  The
    noise I hear on my master tapes (through headphones, no less) comes
    from the instruments, effects and board.
    
    I have not for a moment regretted making the investment in 8 tracks.
    Nor do I feel compelled to make the step up to 16.
    
    len.
    

    I'm in the same camp as Messrs. Moeller and Fehskens...
    
    In my 4-track days (TEAC 2340-SX), I always had to guess what the
    final mix would sound like.  Needless to say after 3 or 4 generations
    of bouncing, something was always wrong and there was no way to
    fix it wthout recording it all over.
    
    Of course, I didn't have any equipment then that could sync to anything
    except a start/stop switch.  So I couldn't save my performances
    on disk for instant playback.  Perhaps with gobs of computers and
    MIDI'd equipment the number of final tracks becomes less important.
    
    Since I still do almost all my recording of live playing, the bigger
    the number of tracks the better (for me).
    
    - John -

One more for the MNT (MIDI Network Team)

Here's another twist on the MIDI router/switcher problem. In order to
record tracks into the sequencer in the MAC cleanly, apparently the 
KX88 must be plugged directly into the MAC. Also, if in a sync-to-tape
mode, the MAC must see the MIDI timing pulses (analog, I understand)
coming in. Can the KX88 pass these thru unchanged? I'm about to 
purchase the Yamaha YMC-10 sync device.. And aside from unplugging 
the MAC from the MIDInet, how can it be left out ? Its MIDI port is 
unusable when the power is off. 

Do any of the Roland routing devices address this network configuration?
Oh yeah, that was another note... well, they kinda mush together, don't
they?   - karl
    
------------------                     -------------------- 
        MIDI   IN<                     > MIDI IN    
KX88                        		   YMC-10 sync box     to FOSTEX
             OUT >--------------  -----<MIDI OUT  audio out >-- track # 8
------------------             |  |    --------------------
                               |  |
        ------------------     |  |
                  MIDI  IN <---  <-     ?? And whenever recording to 
	MACINTOSH                   	a sync track I'll need BOTH
                  MIDI OUT >--          YMC-10 AND the KX88 into the MAC.
	------------------    |         Plus I don't want the MAC on all
                        IN <--          the time... It's possible the
	MKS-20 RACK                 	KX88 could pass the MIDI sync
                       OUT >--          pulse thru to the MAC.
	------------------    |     
                        IN <--      
	EMAX RACK                       EMAX may or may not be in 'MIDI	
                       OUT >--          overflow' mode, i.e. the Fb01
	------------------    |         might be completely independent
                        IN <--          OR it might play only those 
	FB-01                       	voices the Emax can't handle-
                       OUT >--          over 8 total.
	------------------    |     
                        IN <--      
	MIDIverb                    	This is optional. The KX88 only
                       OUT >--          xmits on two channels, and I
	------------------    |         may just leave these two off the
                        IN <--          MIDI network.
	MIDIfex                     	
                       OUT >--      
       ------------------- 

    huh? If the connector says MIDI, its midi data, not
    some 'analog midi timing pulses'.
    
    Doesnt the YP box translates from tape fsk to midi timing clock
    (a single midi byte 24 * quarter note tempo)?
    
    You want to merge the clock info with the kx88 kbd info. and
    get it into the MAC's one (?!) midi input I guess.
    
    What is midi in for the kx88? If the OUT is a merge of the
    IN and kx info, thats it.

    
    else, get a merge box.
    
    ALSO!You left out the midi IN connection from the MAC out
    for writing sync to tape. 
    
    As for the mac in the fixed-wire midi-net. Tough cookies.
    Power on all the time.
    
    One reason some of us want midi-routers....
    
    Am I right here, MAC experts?
    
    ron
    

    Arghhhh - do I correctly interpret the picture in .32 to mean you
    are daisy chaining MIDI data through 6 modules?  Get yourself a
    thru box, post haste, son.  The MIDI standard explicitly states,
    "Thou shalt not THRU more than three times in a row".
    
    All the MIDI "out"s in that stack are properly MIDI "thru"s, as
    none of these devices orginate data.  If they did, that data would
    only be visible to the next device in the chain, if you were indeed
    connecting "out"s to "in"s rather than "thru"s to "in"s.
    
    A thru box would also solve your "powered down Mac" problem.
    
    Mr. Ross is correct - the MIDI clock the MAC is looking for is
    just another MIDI message.
    
    Let me think on this and I'll propose you a more sensible
    configuration.  But you're gonna have to *buy* something.
    
    len.
    

    Well, it didn't take much thinking to come up with some questions.
    
    Just what do you want to do with this gear?  If I had this setup,
    I'd want to do the following:
    
    	0) play one or more of the mks20, emax, fb01, midiverb and midifex
    	   from the kx88, on one or two channels
    
    	1) record from the kx88 into the mac
    
    	2) playback to the mks20, emax, fb01, midiverb and midifex from the
    	   mac
    
    	3) sync the mac to tape while doing (2)
    
    	4) do (1) and (2) at the same time (overdubbing into the mac)
    
    	5) do (1) and (3) at the same time (overdubbing into the mac
    	   while listening to existing tape tracks)
    
    	6) do (0) while doing (3) with whatever's left (for when the mac
    	   runs out of memory and you just *have* to get one more part on
    	   the last tape track. 
        
    I think that's everything that's possible.
    
    Now, I'd like to do this without having to unplug/move/replug any
    MIDI cables.  And have it work reliably.
    
    This is a lot like my setup, if you substitute an mc500 for the
    mac.  Except that my mc500 is up as long as just about anything
    else in the studio is up, so I can assume it's always there to thru
    for me.
    
    Time to go think some more - except for the need to merge MIDI clock
    from the ymc10 and note stuff from the kx88 for input to the mac,
    any of the currently available MIDI switchers would solve your problem.
    I don't think you'll have any problems routing the ymc10's clock
    (MIDI out) through the kx88; that would "hide" the ymc10 behind
    the kx88.  But you'd still have to throw a bunch of switches to
    switch between the kx88 and mac as master; if you could assume
    the mac was always up, you could just always select it as master
    (eliminating the need for a switch box, just sending the the mac's
    out to a thru box) and thru the kx88/ymc10 through it.  You could
    get around this with a cheap two input nonmerging switch that fed
    the thru box.  One input would be from the kx88, the other from
    the mac.  A Roland mpu104 (1 in 5 out switched thru box) would
    suffice for the thru box, and allow you to selectively disable any
    of the 5 (mks20, emax, fb01, midiverb, midifex) sinks.
    
    This all assumes the kx88 can merge (i.e., its "out" can be a mixed
    out/thru).  Is this the case?
                          
    len.
    

    You're wasted on the loading dock, len. You should be in some kind
    of network technical management, perhaps as a multiproject coordinator.
    
    Yes, I wish to be able to do every last one of the items on your
    checklist. And yes, the KX88 will pass data from another MIDI device
    as well as add its own signal.. the issue of 'who is the master
    now' is a bit fuzzy.
    
    During sync-to-tape MAC overdubs, the MAC needs both the sync signal
    and the KX88 signal, and thru's to any modules/voices being used.
    So that would be the sync box into the KX88 into the MAC's MIDI
    in. Actually that config covers most of my playing situations except
    non-sequencing.. are you *sure* I haveta buy something? [smiley face]
    My bank account's tongue be hangin'
    
    karl 

    Sometimes I wish I worked on a loading dock, Karl, what I do is
    in fact not very different from what you threatened me with...
    
    OK, if I was you I'd find myself a 2 in 1 out switch (plans for
    one recently published in Electronic Musician if I recall correctly)
    and some kind of 1 in 5 (or more) out thru box (Roland mpu104
    equivalent;  mpu104s were about $80 before the trade war).  You'll
    also need a 1 in 2 out thru box.
    
    ymc10 out to kx88 in
    
    kx88 out to small (1/2) thru box in
    
    small thru box (1/2) out1 to mac in
    
    small thru box (1/2) out2 to switch in1
    
    mac out to switch in2
    
    switch out to big thru box (1/5) in
    
    big thru box (1/5) outs to synth ins.
    
    You might be able to combine the switch and small thru box in some
    kind of small (e.g., 4 * 4) matrix switch.  Or build your own 1
    in 2 out thru box (speak to Mr. Ross...).  Little boxes like that
    are fairly easy to build - you *do* have a soldering pencil, don't
    you?
    
    ymc10 clock is two thrus to mac - shouldn't be a problem.  The switch
    has no effect.   Synths are only two thrus from kx88 - also shouldn't
    be a problem.  My synths are two thrus from the jx10 (mc500, msb1);
    the drum machines are three (mc500, msb1, mpu105).  No problems
    to date.
    
    Ship it.
    
    len.
    

    KKKKKAHHHHH!!!!! No!  TEST it, then ship it. Test results dont matter.
    
    uh. len, if i substitute the surplus F-16 flight recorder that
    
    I picked up at Honest Al's Contra Supply for the Mac,
    
    what do I have to change, if anything.

    Thanks for your help, Im new at this.
    
    ron-eye
     
    

>   OK, if I was you I'd find myself a 2 in 1 out switch 
>   You'll also need a 1 in 2 out thru box.
    
>    ymc10 out to kx88 in
>    kx88 out to small (1/2) thru box in
>    small thru box (1/2) out1 to mac in
>    small thru box (1/2) out2 to switch in1
>    mac out to switch in2
>    switch out to big thru box (1/5) in
>    big thru box (1/5) outs to synth ins.

>        len.

    Well, I took all this to heart, (thanks, len!) drew pictures, etc., 
    and went shopping.
    
    What I got was a SONUS 2 master, 8 thru box. This is NOT a 'matrix'
    switcher, but rather allows 'master selection' for EACH port. Two
    masters, KX88 (with YMC10 sync into the KX88) and MAC. The MAC also
    has a thru port on the SONUS, selectable to the KX88 for sequencer 
    sync-to-tape.
    
    The YMC10 SONUS port can take MIDI clock from the MAC, for recording 
    sync tones on tape. All other units are MIDI in only. When (if) I use
    the EMAX' sequencer, things might get a bit murky..
    
    The SONUS unit seems to deal with all the issues I had, selectable
    master, leaving the MAC switched off, and MIDI-to-sync in and out.
    
    $99 list. My only gripe is that now I've got 4 units that use AC-DC
    converters, and these puppies, due to size, cover TWO AC outlets
    on a power strip... never satisfied...
    
    karl moeller

    See, whatcha do, Karl, is, ya like take these little black boxes
    that plug in and, like, ya know, ya put'em in the last socket on
    the power strip, so they hang out in the other direction and don't
    get in the way.  And, like, ya know, if yer power strip is like
    real cool, you can do this twice, 'cuz the switch don't get in
    the way.  But not all power strips are cool like this, buttcha do
    whatcha can, like, ya know?
    
    Maybe these little black box designers'll take a cue from the boys
    at Roland and put power cords on'em; or maybe the power strip guys'll
    put the sockets in sideways so the little black boxes can overhang
    over the sides of the power strip rather than over the adjacent
    socket...  Can you believe none of these guys ever buy each others'
    equipment?

    The FSK tone generated from the Yamaha YMC-10 sync box is a winner!
    
    I was able to stripe a track on the Fostex A8LR (-3db) with no hi 
    frequency twiddling, and the MAC slaved to it perfectly. I then COPIED
    the FSK track over to a Nakamichi cassette deck, again with no EQ at
    all, and, again, the MAC slaved to it perfectly !
    
    The goal is to save the (possibly fragile) transport on the Fostex
    while I'm building additional tracks in the sequencer, by having
    a cassette with music in one channel, and the FSK track in another.
    
    Recording the FSK track: I saw that the MAC is always putting out
    clock signal, once selected.. so I started recording on the Fostex,
    and then a few seconds later, I started the sequence playing. This
    works fine for playback, as I see the sync track get a level, then
    a few seconds later the sequence begins playing.
    
    So this is one scenario: having all parts originate in the sequencer.
    Now I know how to do this.. however, I've got LOTS of music already
    recorded that I'd like to orchestrate ! So do I create a blank sequence
    of the correct length in order to sync to a performance already
    on tape ?? I'll be trying various things in the next few days..
    has anyone synced a sequencer to a prerecorded performance ??
    
    km2 

    Yes, but you need a box that can either
    
    	take input from *you* (via tapping or something) that establishes
    	the beat, or
    
    	follow a rhythm track (e.g., drums) and lock onto the beat.
    
    An example of the former is the Roland SBX-10; your YMC-10 should
    have a similar capability.  And example of the latter is Kahler's
    new "Human Clock", which I believe goes for about $700 list.
    
    What you do is overdub the sync track while listening (you or your
    magic box) to the other tracks.  Unless there's a click or count
    in, you may have some problems with syncing the first bar.
    Especially if the sync track processing delay means that added tracks
    based on the sync lag a little behind the stuff already on tape.
    What you do in this case is run the sync through a digital delay,
    and delay it a little less than a whole beat.  Delete one beat from
    the beginning of your sequences, then adjust the delay until you
    have the parts in relative time that you like.  Then commit to tape.
    
    You're gonna *have* to find some way to adapt to what's on tape;
    setting the tempos "the same" and riding the tempo on the sequencer
    will drive you bonkers, but it will never stay locked up for the
    whole tune all by itself.  Too many variables. 
    
    Incidentally, Karl, this is exactly what I am about to try doing
    with that tape you sent me so long ago - we striped it once with
    Dave Dreher's SBX-10, but mine won't lock to his sync track, so
    I have to tap into the machine for 16 minutes *again*!
    
    len.
    

    
    sumtins wrong. You sure you usin' fsk to and from tape?
    You said something bout _midi_ clock......

    You should be able to stripe a (tape) sync on another track
    of an existing tune and maintain a relationship to the existing
    material. 
    
    The only problems I see are:  Some small but constant delay
    on recording newly sequenced part in relation to the clock
    (due to sequencer processing)  AND that you'll have lotsa
    fun trying to play along with that rubato part to record
    other parts (due to human processing)...
    
    do I understand what you want to do?
    

    Maybe if you explain again slowly?  I thought I understood what
    you're trying to do, but now I'm not so sure.
    
    You've got stuff on tape, and you want to add *sequenced* stuff
    to play in time with it.  Right?
    
    len.
    

    deep breath. Background fact: when I record into my Mac-based
    sequencer, I don't bother with the click/metronome.. just record 
    real-time and use it like a tape deck.
    
    Next, I have a nice piano solo on tape, not in strict time. 
    I'd like to be able to carefully construct orchestration for it
    in the sequencer, and have the sequencer locked to the piano solo
    both while I'm recording new parts into it and while I'm transferring
    those parts to analog tape, in perfect alignment with the piano
    track(s).. and then clear memory in the sequencer, add new parts,
    transfer to analog, und so weiter, until I'm out of analog tracks.
    
    Note I'm not concerned about driving drum tracks or anything like
    that, because the original tape wasn't recorded to any metronome
    other than my own internal unit.. but I DO need to 'sync' the sequencer
    perfectly to the tape... real time.. that is, there isn't any integral
    'click track'. If I can't accompany myself on my own compositions
    I have the wrong hobby. So I believe this precludes a need for any
    unit like a Kahler Human Clock, as there's nothing on tape to lock
    to.. except an FSK tone representing the Mac's default 120bpm.
    
    uhh.. any clearer ? thanks for your kind concern, karl 

    OK, but now I don't see what your problem is.  If you got a 120
    bpm sync track on tape from the the first pass, why can't you overdub
    into the sequencer (again disregarding the beat and bar lines as
    you did on the first pass) while listening to what's on the tape?
    Drive the sequencer clock from the tape sync track; then what goes
    into the sequencer (and what comes out on the next "to tape" pass)
    will be in sync with what's on the tape.
    
    Or are you "carefully construct"ing these new parts in step time?
    If you play them in in real time (in sync with what's already on
    tape) you can still go back and edit them, but the timing might look
    a little wierd.
    
    I must still be missing something, as I don't understand why you
    don't just overdub directly to tape and leave the sequencer out
    of this entirely.  You can punch in, overdub, pingpong, etc., all
    driectly to tape.  The only reason to use a sequencer is to construct
    parts you can't play in real time, because you lack the executant
    skill or enough hands to play everything at the same time.  Using
    a sequencer as a literal substitute for tape seems pointless to
    me.  Your concern about undue wear and tear on teh tape transport
    seems misplaced to me - a multitrack deck that can't take that kind
    of use (not abuse - multitracking *requires* this sort of robustness)
    is a contradiction in terms.
    
    len.
    

    Len: one (thats enuf) reason to record the sequence FIRST is
    that its easier to change the voicing or orchestration....
    WITHOUT having to execute the thing perfectly again, and again.
    Two: you can layer more parts on the sequencer, and futtz with them
    before going to final tape audio...
        
    Karl: Again: something is gesprectlich. Why would folks
    put a sync track on tape if they couldnt sync the sequencer to
    it? Thats what its for. ergo, levels, wiring, setup, must be wrong.
    
    Put track 1 live
    Set sequencer to write_sync
    Put sync track 2
    Set sequencer to read_sync (you got the right parts per quarter,etc?)
    Play tape and record to sequencer
    (mess with sequence or voicing here maybe)
    Put sequence (Audio) to tape

    What are you doing thats different?????
    ron
    

    
     (er, thats "one reason to record TO the sequencER....)
    
    Oh, and the sequencer starts WHEN the first fsk clock happens
    (or maybe not, but it had BETTER do the same thing every time)
    
    Seems to me there are no special fsk CODES for midi other than
    midi clock (no fsk start/stop, no fsk song position pointer, etc)
    
    Unless your box is VERY special.
        

    
    either you have live track and you (later) add a sync track,
    or you do the sync first, then the audio. point is either
    way should work.
    
    Ok. idea: When you are playing back the 'squished together'
    just-recorded track, you HAVE to run the tape too to get
    sync, right?
    
    NO? then you have set your seqwuether (oopths) to internal
    sync, right?
    
    Yes? And it doesnt work still, right? Ok. Theres some incompatiblity
    in sync modes. Try playing back while tape running and external
    sync. 
        
    OR (AHAH?) the sequencer is expecting clock information from the
    interface too, (some number, a time-stamp, this is NOT included in
    the midi protocol) and the Mac would gen this (maybe) in internal sync
    mode.   Is this interface supported by the software fer sure? 
    Sounds like that timing info is missing, eh?
    
    OR (??) Whats this external clock start/stop? more info....
    

    

    I solved the
    aforementioned problem (whole song playing back in 4 seconds)
    by reducing the level of the sync tone; sync boxes typically 
    need levels between -4 and -10 db.
    That was with a C64, though.
    Hope this helps.
    Happy syncing
    
    Georg
    
    

    Well. Silly me. You may recall I was having difficulty getting my
    sequencer to follow a recorded sync tone.. my error was assuming
    that since there was indeed a -3db tone on the tape, that tone was
    actually carrying the clock !!!
    
    What I hadn't done when originally recording the sync tone was..
    start the sequencer ! there was a level, and so I recorded it..
    
    NOW my problem is, I can't get my Opcode MIDI interface to THRU
    while I'm recording into the sequencer.. adding another line for
    the Emax to follow. I have MIDIMac v 1.02.. there is a blurb on
    this in the latest Keyboard, except I have really a old (ca.1985 is
    old?) software rev.

    karl

    Well now, ain't that a kick in the teeth!
    
    That level is what's called the "pilot tone".  We should have guessed
    there was no sync really there (dincha listen to it? FSK has a
    characteristic warble, quite distinctive from the pilot) when you
    said the sequencer dumped it's load as fast as possible - symptomatic
    of runaway sync (MC500s do this too when you stop the tape while
    it's syncing to it).
    
    Can't help you on the Opcode problem - why doncha just get a thru
    box?
    
    len.
    

    No, I never listened to it. All the charm of a dentist's drill.
    
    Re my MIDI thru problem.. just called OPCODE, the MIDI port will
    handle 'thru'.. except I have Sequencer v1.02.. now up to 2.5.
    
    karl

re: opcode problem

Yea, I had this concern initially whilst using my C64 Dr. T sequencer. 
I Ran the MIDI output of my drum pads (thanks to Len for lending me his
DRUMSLAVE) into the computer/sequencer, and couldn't get it to go thru to
the TR505.  I found out later that you can set up an echo channel in S/W
(How was I supposed to know it *would* be documented in the manual).  Works 
like a charm...

Todd.

    My well-connected West Coast Technical Resource has struck again.
    The recommendation is to get rid of my Yamaha YMC-10 sync box ASAP.
    
    The story is that there is a new standard, MIDI Time Code.. 
    All the advantages of SMPTE without the cost. FSK-style analog track 
    creating actual timestamp data over MIDI. Most of the new
    computer-based sequencers are/will be set up to respond
    to this.. NOT using Song Pointer..
    
    The box? Len's favorite, J.L. Cooper, has one for $195.
    
    Does anyone have any more information on MIDI Time Code?
    
    karl

    I have some information on the MIDI Time Code, but not with me.
    Basicly it is a way of transmitting absolute time over the MIDI
    bus.  If that time is to be derived from a SMPTE track (the only
    rational thing to do, in my opinion) then you still have most of
    the costs of SMPTE: it takes a track on your recorder, you have
    to "strip" the track with the SMPTE pattern, you need analog hardware
    to extract the bits from the audio signal, you need digital hardware
    to establish proper phase and recognize SMPTE frames, and send the
    derived absolute times down the MIDI bus.
    
    ``All the advantages of SMPTE without the cost'' sounds like hype.
    
    Song Pointer is still useful in a sequencer that responds to MIDI
    Time Code, because Song Pointer is based on the measure number.
    If you are fooling with the timing (accelerandos, etc--my Italian's
    terrible) then the position denoted by MIDI Time Code will move
    around, but the position denoted by Song Position Pointer will remain
    fixed, thus making editing more convenient.
    
    I don't know what the Yamaha YMC-10 sync box is.  I have a Roland
    SBX-80, which may be similar.  It reads and writes SMPTE on an analog
    port, and when reading generates MIDI Clock, Start, Stop and Continue
    messages.  When starting in the middle of a track it will also send
    Song Position Pointer.  However, it must have your time base on-board
    so it can translate absolute time (from SMPTE) to measure/beat/etc.
    for the Song Position Pointer message.  Fortunately it is able to
    load the time base from the MIDI bus using System Exclusive.
        John Sauter

    I think the Yamaha box is just a FSK to Midi Clock converter (like
    what is built into Roland drum machines).
    
    	- Rick
    

    If that's all it does, then I expect a box which deals with SMPTE
    and MIDI Time Code will be much more expensive.  I have an FSK
    to MIDI Clock convertor inside my Roland MPU-401!
        John Sauter

*********************** From MIX Magazine Jan '87: *******************

In 1985 the Midi Manufacturers Assoc. (MMA) discussed reserving some System
Exclusive codes for the transmission of data between instruments. The first
is the Sample Dump Standard. the second, MIDI Time Code (MTC) is not yet
ratified. MTC will use a System Common or Real-Time message for maintaining
realtime synchronization, and System Exclusive messages to provide a non-
real-time method for directly transmitting SMPTE Time Code information
over MIDI.

MTC became necessary because of the advantages of absolute autolocation
offered by SMPTE Time Code. Up to this point, the link between SMPTE
Time Code and MIDI was done by converting time code information to MIDI
Song Position Pointer (SPP). Unfortunately, SPPis only a counter that
indicates the number of elapsed MIDI beats (defined as six Timing Clocks,
or 16th notes in 4/4 time) since the beginning of the piece. It is
therefore tempo dependent and good only for relative location. ...
  [SMPTE <> Video paragraph deleted]
SPP's relative location characteristic also means that a MIDI sequencer 
cannot jump or shuttle to a given [SMPTE-generated] time code address 
from any location, only chases to it by starting at the beginning of 
the piece and fast shuttling to the lockup point. This is still better 
than using sync clocks, which must always be started at the beginning 
and cannot chase at all, but is less desirable than standard SMPTE 
Time Code chase-locking.

MTC is not completely free of this restriction. Chasing from the beginning
is also done to make sure that program changes, controller information,etc.
are current when the lockup point is reached. If a sequencer were to jump
directly to a given address, what would happen to a program change that
occurred two bars previously? Worse yet, consider that if an upwards
pitch bend occurred before the lockup point, but the bend back DOWN 
occurred after, the result of picking up playback at the lockup point
would be a downwards pitch bend that never came back up.

The currently proposed MTC spec has both realtime and non-realtime
aspects which allow synchronization and extensive setup functions. The
realtime implementation consists of two parts: a realtime synchronization
message, and a 'long form' SysEx message which sends the complete address
in one transmission. The type of time code would also be in this message.
One of the advantages of SMPTE Time Code is its ability to run in reverse,
and this is defined in MTC as well. For reverse operation, the synch
messages are simply sent in reverse order. (easy for you to say-Ed.)

The long-form message is used when locating or shuttling, which avoids
filling the MIDI data stream with sync messages sent at high speed.
Typically, this message will be sent one the lockup point is reached.

The realtime messages provide MTC's synchronization functions, but time
code's strengths also lie in its ability to designate events to occur
in relation to time code addresses. MTC will include a setup message
intended to meet this need. Cue points, even start and stop times,
punch in and out points, and a device number would be logical components
of a setup message. 

MTC opens the door for a host of new software and hardware...(no shit-Ed.)

************************* from Electronic Musician 7/87 ****************
the SYNHANCE MTS-1 ($229) is a low-cost (everything is relative-Ed.)
easy-to-use tape synchronization system that brings full chase-lock
capabilities to any hardware or software sequencer that supports
MIDI Song Position Pointers. This synchronizewr delivers SMPTE-like
performance to tape and sequencer locking applications where it is
important for the sequencer to start in precise synchronization with
the tape, regardless of whether it is at the beginning, middle or
end of the tape.

A proprietary 'beat code' recording method captures the tempo and beat
of a performance, including accelerandos and decelerandos (we always
called them 'ritards'-Ed.) The time code works with a wide variety of
recorders and signal levels. (-and Noise Reduction Systems?-Ed.)

the MTS-1 works with any MIDI sequencer product that accepts external
MIDI synchronization. Chase locking is achieved when the MTS-1 is
used with a sequencer that implements Song Position Pointers. However,
even sequencers that do not implements SPP can benefit from the MTS-1,
as its tape sync interface has a unique error-correction method that
allows it to work even in the presence of tape drop-outs that would
ruin an FSK sync-track.

Harmony Systems Inc PO box 2744 Norcross GA 30091

********************* from Electronic Musician 7/87 ****************
		BORED WITH REWINDING ?
So was Jim Cooper. He developed the PPS-1 MIDI Code Converter to support
Song Position Pointers which allow you to start anywhere in a song and
still have complete tape-to-MIDI lock.

The PPS-1 (Poor People's SMPTE) generates a SMPTE-like FKS code (is that
anything like 'FSK' code?-Ed.) that gives the power of SMPTE, without
all the hassle, at a very affordable $199.50.

J.L. Cooper Electronics 1931 Pontius Ave. Los Angeles CA 90025

*************************** Conclusions from the Editor **************
It looks like noone has truly settled on the specs for MIDI Time Code.
With all the chase-lock functionality, it appears that one may as well
invest in a SMPTE printer/reader/conversion unit. These two units
advertised in EM are addressing the need without waiting for the 
MTC spec to be fully developed.. so it looks like we'd better learn 
about Song Position Pointers ! 

karl

What is the SMPTE standard for number of clock ticks per second?

I know it's in this file somewhere, I'm just too lazy to look it up...

Todd.

    SMPTE's data rate is 2400 bits per second.  Every 80 bits is a SMPTE
    "frame", whose data contains the absolute time of the frame.  Thus,
    you get 30 frames per second.  The clock rate is up to the SMPTE
    receiver, but it is easy to get 2400 ticks per second.  Sophisticated
    devices, like the Roland SBX-80, send MIDI Clock messages at a rate
    which can be specified as a function of time.  "Time", is, of course,
    taken from the SMPTE frames.
        John Sauter  

    RE: -1
    
    > SMPTE's data rate is 2400 bits per second.  Every 80 bits is a SMPTE
    > "frame", whose data contains the absolute time of the frame.  Thus,
    > you get 30 frames per second.  The clock rate is up to the SMPTE
    > receiver, but it is easy to get 2400 ticks per second.
      
    I'd like to add that there are actually several "frame rates" defined".
    
    24 frames/sec.	"Old" film industry standard
    25 frames/sec.	European (50 Hz.) video
    30 frames/sec.	USA (60 Hz.) video
    
    In addition, there are the so called "DROP" and "NON-DROP" flavours
    for all of these (if I recall correctly). "Drop-frame" means that
    1 or 2 (I don't remember exactly) of the 80 bits are not transferred
    to match yet some other peculiar syncing rates.
    
    Timo
    
                                                  

Hi from Buzzard Beach, Arizona..

Is anyone using a sequencer - tape sync method that includes MIDI Song
Position Pointer (SPP) ?  I'm using a Yamaha YMC-10 FSK box into an
old version of Performer (no SPP) on the MAC.  While it's extremely
reliable, it's a major drag to have to rewind the tape to the start
of the sync tone in order to slave Performer to the tape.

As my next project includes adding orchestration to already-recorded
pieces, I forsee terrible trouble with my current configuration.

                           HELPFUL   HINT

As I really don't want to wear out the transport on my Fostex 8-track,
here's a method I've used while adding orchestration to already-recorded
pieces.

A: Dub original piece (analog tape type) onto Fostex trax 1 & 2.

B: After experimenting with sequencer speed, dub FSK or generic sync
   tone onto Fostex track 8.

C: Connect a CASSETTE deck up so the MUSIC from trax 1 & 2 go onto the
   LEFT channel, and the SYNC tone goes to the right channel. Record.

D: Reconnect the YMC-10 to take its prerecorded sync tone input from
   the cassette deck's right channel.  I have the YMC-10 input coming
   from the patch bay to limit rewiring effort.

E: Connect the cassette deck's left (music) channel to a mixer channel.

F: Set the sequencer to EXTERNAL CLOCK

G: Now, rather than beating up the 8-track, I just use a cassette deck
   that sits right on the back edge of the KX88.. I can hear the
   prerecorded music I'm accompanying, and the sequencer receives its
   MIDI clock correctly from the YMC-10, also fed from the cassette 
   deck.

karl

    Well, I use SPP for the drum machine.  Basically, I program up basic
    drum sequences on the drum machine early on in the development of
    a piece.  Then, I work all the other parts and diddle with the drum
    machine stuff just a bit.  The SPP keeps the drum machine at the
    right places when I'm working on the other parts.  Then, the very
    last step is to dump the drum sequence to the sequencer and add
    little frills here and there, tweek velocity, and so forth.
    
    I decided to put money into SGUs rather than recording equipment,
    so I haven't used any FSK tape sync stuff, yet.
    
    Steve

    The Roland MC-500 Super-MRC software has a cute feature for dealing
    with (part of) this problem; it has a mode whereby it sends everything
    *but* note messages from the beginning of a sequence to the current
    position, so all the patch changes etc. get accounted for.
    
    len.
    

    
    re -1.
    
    The review I read said that the "cute" feature could take up to
    9 seconds. Is that the case?
    
    I have recently been demoing a new English Atari sequencer called
    Trackman which stores start up controller and  patch information
    within the sequene. This being a sequence based rather then a track
    based sequencer. It intelligently sends out patch and controller
    setings every time you select  the next or previous sequence.
    
    I still think that I prefer the H/W based systems  though !
          
    
    						Paul.
    

    re .-1: I don't know, I haven't tried it yet.  My MC-500 won't upgrade,
    and it's off being looked at just now.  I'd guess that the time
    it took would be a function of how long the song was.
    
    len.
    

Re:    < Note 422.63 by SALSA::MOELLER "Samurai Software Specialist" >

>>> ********************* from Electronic Musician 7/87 ****************
>>>		BORED WITH REWINDING ?
>>> So was Jim Cooper. He developed the PPS-1 MIDI Code Converter to support
>>> Song Position Pointers which allow you to start anywhere in a song and
>>> still have complete tape-to-MIDI lock.
>>> 
>>> The PPS-1 (Poor People's SMPTE) generates a SMPTE-like FKS code (is that
>>> anything like 'FSK' code?-Ed.) that gives the power of SMPTE, without
>>> all the hassle, at a very affordable $199.50.


    I spent last night playing with one of these PPS-1 boxes that I
    picked up at a music store "clearance" sale for $30.  (I guess it
    just wasn't selling.)
    
    Anyway, this box has a documented feature where it can be converted
    to a 30 frame, non-drop SMPTE code generator and SMPTE/MIDI Time
    Code synchronizer.  This feature is enabled by unscrewing the case,
    moving a jumper (a little plastic thing) so it connects 2 pins rather
    than the default of "no connection", and putting the case back
    together.  This takes about 5 minutes (counting finding the
    screwdriver).
    
    Since I just bought Master Tracks Pro v3.2 for my Mac, I tried syncing
    some of the demo sequences to my Pioneer RT-701 1/4" reel-to-reel.
    It works fine in MTP's MTC sync mode once you figure out what you're
    supposed to do.  Unfortunately, the MTP documentation (rightfully)
    just tells how to set it up to receive the MTC from your synchronizer
    and the JLCooper documentation concentrates on its "normal" mode
    of FSK to MIDI Song Position Pointer.  In the back it tells you
    how to convert to a "real" SMPTE device but neglects to point out
    a few subtle differences.  The following information seems to be
    correct about the PPS-1 in SMPTE mode:
    
    	- As soon as you slide the switch to "STRIPE Tape", it begins
          generating SMPTE code beginning at 00:30:00:00 (30 minutes).
     	  So have your recorder running when you slide the switch if you
    	  want to avoid the problem of wondering why the stripe seems to 
    	  start at some random time > 30 minutes.
    
    	- Unlike FSK mode, there is no need to run your sequencer's
    	  MIDI out into the PPS-1 in.  The SMPTE code gets generated without
    	  regard to any of the information your sequencer is sending anyway.
    	  You don't even have to have your sequencer turned on if all you
    	  want to do is stripe your tape with SMPTE code.
    
    	- The "LOCK" light will not light when it's generating SMPTE
    	  code.  Don't worry about it.
   
    To play back,
    
    	- You'll have to adjust the start time of your sequenced piece to
    	  be at some SMPTE time > 00:30:00:00
    
    	- At the beginning of a piece, the PPS-1 locked up and MTP got
          in sync in about 2 seconds.  (The LOCK LED works as expected
    	  in play mode.
    	  In the middle of a (short) piece, it still seemed to take less
    	  than 5 seconds for the PPS-1 and MTP to lock up.
    
    	- The LOCK is more tolerant for slowing the tape down than speeding
    	  it up.  No hard data for how slow or how fast you could go,
    	  however.

    All in all, so far I'd say it's a pretty nice device.  Of course,
    JLCooper has recently announced a PPS-100 which I think is a bit
    fancier version in a rackmount (rather than the PPS-1's simple grey
    box) for a bit more money.  For $30 though, this will should let
    me use MTP as a virtual recorder for the MIDI parts while still
    being in sync with vocals, acoustic guitar, and the like.
    
    If anyone else is dumping these to make room for new fancier models,
    these might be worth a look.  It seems to be a good entry into SMPTE
    syncing.
    
    I believe the notes above are correct, but I'll chekc again if any
    of it seems wrong to you.
        
    - John -
    
    P.S.  I added SYNC as a Keyword to this base note (422.0).

    I may have mentioned this before, as I did a short experiment some time
    back.. but this was done with a lengthy piece.
    
    scenario: recorded a 7-minute piece to the internal click in Performer.
    Added a couple of overdub tracks.  While listening back, I realized the
    piece would come alive better if there were some ritardandos and
    accelerandos here and there.
    
    Gee, if I had A) more memory B) newer Performer version, I could just
    record a 'conductor' track.   However, I have several tape dex and a
    dumb FSK box... so the scheme :
    
    - Set up to record an FSK track (to cassette this time, why waste 
    open reel tape?)
    - Playing only the original piano track along with the audible click, 
    begin recording the FSK track
    - Listening to the click and piano, modify the playback speed using the
    speed slider
    
    [What this does is simultaneously alter the outgoing MIDI clock info,
    which is received by the converter box and turned into FSK.]
    
    - On playback with Performer slaved to external MIDI clock, the
    sequence preserved ALL the ritards and accelerandos.  
    
    karl

           <<< Note 422.72 by XERO::ARNOLD "Am I re-elected yet?" >>>
>    P.S.  I added SYNC as a Keyword to this base note (422.0).
    
    not anymore.. I tried SH KEY/FULL SYNC, FSK, SYNCING, SMPTE,
    SYNCHRONIZING and a couple others - was forced to DIR/TITLE="syncing"
    
    karl

karl,  you gotta use wild cards, like sho key/full sync*.

/Mitch

    Geez, Karl - don't you read topic 1.*?  (jab, jab)  &*}

    All notes on tape/smpte/fsk/sync are tagged with SYNCHRONIZATION. A
    DIR/KEY=SYNC* or SHOW KEY/FULL SYNC* would have done the trick. 

-b

PS - I added the SMPTE keyword to the base note.  My bad.

    Same old question, 1 year later :
    
    Is anybody synchronizing a computer or dedicated sequencer with a tape
    deck using MIDI Song Position Pointer ?
    
    If so, what's your gear and methodology ????
    
    thanks, karl

    
    
    re -.1
    
    >Is anybody synchronizing a computer or dedicated sequencer with a tape
    >deck using MIDI Song Position Pointer ?
    
    Yup!
    
    >If so, what's your gear and methodology ????
    
    Atari ST/Master Tracks Pro
    JL Cooper PPS-1
    deck is a Tascam 38.
    
    see .72 for info in the PPS-1.  
    
    It really has made things ALOT easier!
    
    Ralph
    
    

Karl,

I've been syncing to tape using Midi SSP for a while right now. My
set up is:

    - Atari running CUBASE (also worked when I had Steinberg's Pro 24)
    - PPS1  (JLCoopers poor person's SMPTE)
    - Tascam 244
    - Various SGU's

My current working method is to first complete as much of the song in the
sequencer before using the tape/sync. Once I'm happy with the sequence I'll
stripe a tape with the PPS1 output. The PPS1 input is fed from the
sequencer. 
     
	     .-------PPS1<-------Atari (Running CUBASE (was PRO24) with
	     v			   |	Midi clock enabled)
	    244			   v
	    Porta		  SGUs
				   |
				   v
				 Mixer -> monitor

Once that's done, the configuration is changed so that the sequencer
syncs to the tape (I'm using a midi patch-bay which makes life
easier). The setup thus becomes:
     
     
	    244
	    Porta
	     |  |
	     |  .--->PPS1------->Atari (Running CUBASE (was PRO24) with
	     |			   |	Midi Sync  enabled)
	     | 			   v
	     |   		  SGUs
	     |			   |
	     | "tape tracks"	   v
	     .------------------>Mixer -> monitor


Next I put record vocals and guitar on my remaing three tracks and
this is where SPP comes into play as I can sit with my four track and
just rewind, hit record, play guitar and be accompanied by the SGU's
with lock-up time being about one/two seconds.

The above setup is also what I use to mix down final result to 2 tracks.

The only problem I've had seems to be with "dropping in" say a guitar part
or vocals on the 244. What happens is I've got the music running along just
fine with the 244 putting out its song pointer info and the sequencer
tracking along. When I hit record (directly or via a footswitch) to
drop-in, it appears that the tape head stops "reading" the tape for a brief
instant as the 244 switches itself to record-mode. The result is that the
sequencer ceases to receiver SPP, stops playing then picks up again. That
brief instant is long enough to make it hard to judge the beat you intend
to come in one. So a lot of re-trying takes place till its right. Anyone
else get this ? 

     Zayed

	Got myself the Tascam sync box (forgot the number as usual, it's 
	small, and black, and has one button and a display - *real* complicated)

	I'm still using Dr. T's KCS on an Atari 1040 ST with numerous SGUs.

	Works like a champ. Extremely simple. Here's the topography:


	The synchbox is setup as just another device on the midi network (I
	use the MX-8). To stripe a tape, I setup the song on KCS, and make
	sure I'm transmitting clock w/SP. I hit the one button on the synchbox
	to put it in SAVE mode, hit the SYNC button on the deck (TASCAM porta-
	two right now), punch the safety for track 4, make sure the MX-8
	is on the PLAY ATARI (i.e. broadcast to everybody from the atari) 
	program, and press PLAY-RECORD on the deck (up comes the pilot tone),
	then hit PLAY on the atari. Auto-Magic. I'm still impressed by the
	relative simplicity of the whole thing.

	To play back, change Dr. T's setup to CLOCK-External w/SPP, switch the
	MX-8 to PLAY STRPE (i.e. synchbox back to Atari, atari to everything 
	else), make sure my safety is safe, and hit PLAY on the deck. 

	It usually takes 5 seconds for the synchbox to issue a SPP command and
	clock. So I always make sure I got at least 7 seconds of pilot tone
	before I ever start a recording. NEVER punch in the pilot or synch tone,
	unless you like doing everything over again.

	Like I said, it's pretty simple in concept, the sequencer is acting much
	more like an extension of the tape deck now.

	/pjh

    Thanks, all.  Looks like the PPS or new TASCAM sync box work well.
    
    My situation is that I have a LOT of long piano solos that I'd like to
    add orchestration to.   And doing that with FSK, having to rewind to
    the beginning just to have the sequencer sync up, is too painful to
    contemplate. 
    
    However, as I have the original Fat Mac w/512K and an old version 
    of Performer that doesn't recognize MIDI SPP, I'll have to buy the box,
    add memory to the MAC, and buy and upgrade to Performer.  Is this worth
    $700 to me, he asked himself....
    
    karl

    I've been using SMPTE for about 3 months now using:
    
    Southworth JAMBOX2 SMPTE/MIDI converter
    Roland MC500 sequencer
    Tascam 38
    
    There is a note on the process I use somewhere (Keyword for SMPTE)
    
    I find it takes more time to set up, but then its easier to do
    overdubs on tape/sequencer.
    
    Dave
    

    Consider what you will be able to do with this stuff, and compare it
    to what a new SGU would cost.  Compared to what you already have
    invested, $700 isn't much.  Why, it is small compared to the
    depreciation you have already eaten on your Kurzweil!  :)

                      <<< Note 422.83 by KOBAL::DICKSON >>>
>$700 isn't much.  Why, it is small compared to the
>    depreciation you have already eaten on your Kurzweil!  :)

    re: the last few
    
    Count me in as yet another PPS-1 user.  I use it in the following
    manner:
    
    1. Stripe track 8 of Tascam 38 with SMPTE generated by PPS-1.  (In the
    	old PPS-1s there is a jumper you can move to change its default FSK
    	use to a SMPTE use.)  I think this is 30 frames per second
    	(non-drop) SMPTE code that starts at time 30 minutes (I think) but
    	it might be 30 seconds.
    
    2. Sequence all of the stuff that needs NO tape sync withOUT using this
    	at all.  I just use a close tempo on the sequencer's internal
    	clock.  (Using Master Tracks Pro v3.3 on the Mac now, sill start
    	using Pro 4 since it came in the mail a while back.)
    
    3. Record all tape stuff (vocals, acoustic guitars, etc.) while
    	listening to the sequencer sync along with the SMPTE track.
    
    4. Add final sequencer stuff that needs to be synced to material on
    	the tape.
    
    This seems to work fine.  I just have to adjust each song in the MTP to
    start at whatever SMPTE time is on the tape at the moment I want the
    syncing to start.  This is easily done with the OFFSET dialog on one of
    the menus.
    
    Whether it's worth $700... Well, that's up to your needs, of course.  I
    would only be drooling at the thought of SMPTE if it weren't that I
    found the PPS-1 at a music store's inventory clearance sale and already
    had all of the other stuff I needed.  (Well, I had to buy an extra Mac
    MIDI interface to get it to record and sync at the same time (step 4
    above).  But that's still "only" ~$100US investment.)
    
    - John -

    
    
    Yep I'me a PPS user as well my set up is the same as Zayed's other
    than that I use a Fostex M80 instead of a 244 and I get no drop-in
    or drop-out problems.
    
    John what is your motivation for using Smpte instead of FSK ?         
    
    RE DD's comments on time for set-up the PPS-1 takes absolutely no
    time to set up given a decent midi configuration and a reasonable
    programmable patch bay.
    
    					Paul.

    >>> John what is your motivation for using Smpte instead of FSK ?
    
    My only reason is that I want to get some experience with how SMPTE,
    etc. works in case I ever get motivated to try to add music to a home
    video.  I know I'd need some more equipment but SMPTE does everything
    the FSK does so I decided to go the SMPTE route.
    
    - John -

	I tried doing the stripe at the same time as I was doing MIDI recording,
	i.e. on the first take - it's a slightly different procedure, and I wish
	I had a second Merge on the MX-8, but it worked!

	Instead of recording on the sequencer first, we wanted to get a guitar
	and vocal track on right away, along with bass and drums (midi-ed).

	So we put the syncbox in SAVE mode, and the first stripe went fine.
	Second take (the drums) was a pain because I thought I needed the
	merge (like I usually do) of outgoing drum info to the HR-16 while
	also recording incoming drum info from the pads (we recently took
	a Simmons pad set and hooked 'em up to the Octapad inputs, it works
	great). But I didn't really need that, what I needed was really a merge
	from the syncbox and the incoming drum pads because the clock was coming
	from the syncbox by that time. 

	Live and learn. Now I got six programs in the MX-8 (record drum with
	stripe)... The only limitation now is that the MX-8 won't merge more
	than two inputs, and I need two separate merges. Bummer.

	/pjh

    RE: .67
    
    I use Personal Composer as my sequencing software. I didn't realize
    it before, since it doesn't appear in the user manual index (manual
    is 400 + pages), but it does respond to SPP (song position pointer).
    
    It's mentioned in the section on syncing to another device, which
    I didn't care about until I purchased an R-8.

    Actually, when I first bought Personal Composer, I thought I had
    heard that it responded to SPP, but then I couldn't find any reference
    to it in the manual's index, or in the record section, where I thought
    it might be documented.
    
    Anyway - it has SYNC INTERNAL, EXTERNAL TAPE, and EXTERNAL MIDI
    as sync options. There is a new version of Personal Composer out
    now that I have ordered, and it looks a lot more user friendly
    - mouse menuing, on-line documentation, for instance.
    
    I'll have more to say about it once I get my copy!
    
    Bill

    I am getting a PPS1 for Christmas, and I tested it before wrapping it
    up (so that if it was broken I could return it within the store's
    time-limit).  The one they sell these days is called "version three",
    and you select SMPTE/MTC/DLI with a front panel switch.  No need to
    fool with jumpers.
    
    In SMPTE mode it took a bit of tweaking before I could get the LOCK
    light to stay on.  Seemed sensitive to level.  This was on a Fostex
    260, with Dolby C.  The PPS1 book said to record the stripe at -3 to
    -10 dB, but I found I had to record at -15dB to get it to work.
    
    The neat thing you can do with SMPTE is have tempo maps entirely in the
    sequencer.  Maybe if you are writing pop songs that have rock-steady
    tempo throughout this is no big deal, but I need the freedom to record
    acoustic tracks first sometimes, then adjust the sequence to follow.

    re .90 - Paul how mucho dinero is the PPS-1 v.3 ?
    
    karl

    List price is $199.  I got it for $180.  I think I saw it on sale once
    for about $155.  You can probably get it for less mail-order, if you
    can find someone who sells J.L. Cooper stuff.
    
    The box I'd *really* like is the Opcode Studio-3 box, which includes
    two MIDI interfaces (for both printer and modem port), SMPTE sync
    stuff, and pedal controller inputs.  Specially designed to work with
    the Vision sequencer.  But the Studio-3 is something like $450.
    
    The PPS1 is the cheapest way to go SMPTE I've seen, and if you aren't
    ready for SMPTE yet, it does clocks and SPP too.  Later you flip a
    switch and join the big leagues.  And it knows Mark of the Unicorn's
    Direct-Lock format too.
    
    Note that the PPS1 interfaces with your sequencer over MIDI, so when
    you run it in SMPTE mode, what the sequencer sees is MTC.
    
    A simple looking box.  The documentation refers to it as resembling
    a lead ingot.  Uses 9v from a wall bug.  Not rack mounted, but just
    a grey metal box about 6x4x1.
    

    re:price of PPS-1
    
    I got a catalog from East Coast (Sound) Music Mall ( or whatever) and
    they had the PPS-1 on sale, I believe the the price was $135 or $139.
    I'll check it out, but I kwow it was a lot cheaper than what I paid
    at Daddy's $179.  I got mine about a month ago and have'nt had a 
    chance to check it out yet.
    
    Errol

    Hello All,
    
    	I'm picking up a used YMC10 Friday (if it works when we test
    it!), and I was wondering if anyone out there has a manual that
    I can Xerox...
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    _John_ (Who'll be much more in synch with things soon!)
    

RE < Note 422.94 by MRSVAX::MISKINIS >

	Gee, was that you at Daddy's yesterday afternoon?

	Dan (who_was_waiting_for_Lucas_to_write_up_the_credit_on_the_returned_
amp)

    Yup...  That was me!  Sometimes Daddy's get's *real* busy...  Other
    times, the salesmen, OOPS, salespersons, are just waiting for people
    to stop in...
    
    I've never found such a *GREAT* store all in all though...
    
    Almost in SYNC,
    
    _John_

RE < Note 422.96 by MRSVAX::MISKINIS >

	I like Daddy's because of what they do with used gear - provide a center
for exchange of equipment.  But the Shrewsbury Daddy's doesn't seem to get as 
good stuff in as the other ones, particularly Nashua and Boston.  I wish there'd
be more synth gear there (but then again, I probably don't need any more, 
anyway).

	I've gone in to Boston's store at lunchtime on, say, a Tuesday and found
incredible things sitting around saying "Buy me! Buy me!".  Had I come by that 
evening or on a more busy time, they'd have been long gone.

	With their new stuff, well, the prices seem to be about average.

	Dan

    You don't need the manual.  The unit has two RCA audio jacks, and two
    MIDI jacks.  
        
        RCA IN    RCA OUT       MIDI IN     MIDI OUT
    [fr. audio  [to audio   [fr. sequencer][to sequencer]
        track]    track]
    
When recording a sync tone on tape, using a master MIDI
    clock from a sequencer (coming in MIDI IN), set the switch to :
    
        RCA IN    RCA OUT       MIDI IN     MIDI OUT
                     ^             ||
                     ===============
    
    When playing the tape and setting your sequencer to follow external
    MIDI sync, set the switch to :
    
        RCA IN    RCA OUT       MIDI IN     MIDI OUT
          ||                                   ^
          =====================================
    
    I've had good luck with no noise reduction, Dolby C, Dolby B, on
    cassettes and open reels.  The sync tone will record at about -3 DB.
    
    karl
    
    p.s. If you REALLY REALLY need the manual, I have one and COULD copy
    it.

    Yeeeeeee Haaaaaaaa!
    
    The YMC10 works like a charm!  Now I only wish I had a 8 track,
    instead of my 4 track...
    
    Thanks again for all the information!
    
    In Sync,
    
    _John_

    Backward sync compatibility...
    
    I want to upgrade my syncability to SPP !  I have a Yamaha YMC10 FSK
    unit, and a version of Performer that only knows MIDI clock.. predates
    SPP.  I know what to do to get Song Position Pointer.. 
    
    	JL Cooper PPS (poor person's SMPTE/SPP box), upgrade my MAC, get
    	a more recent version of Performer
    
    ..but it's not clear what happens with my CURRENT sequences and their
    tape tracks with FSK-1 on them.  Most of them don't use all 7 remaining
    audio tracks on the tape deck, so I MIGHT be able to somehow stripe a
    more modern sync tone on track 7, as long as it was locked to the FSK-1
    generated MIDI clock.. comments or advice are welcome ! 
                                               +---------------+
    TRACK 8 FSK-1 YMC10>----(MIDI CLOCK------->|MIDI IN        |
                                               |  MACINTOSH    |
    TRACK 7 SMPTE PPS-1<----(SPP/CLOCK)-------<|MIDI OUT       |
                                               +---------------+
    
    *OR* will some more modern sync boxes recognize FSK signals recorded by
    the YMC-10 ?  is this possible or desirable ??? - karl

    
    say you got the new Performer and the JLC SMPTE box.
    
    - Connect SMPTE out on the JLC box to track 7 input.
    - Stripe track 7 with SMPTE code. 
    
    Now you would need to create a "tempo" map that equates MIDI SPP to 
    SMPTE events on the JLC box.  
    
    - Connect Performer MIDI out to MIDI in on the JLC Box
    - Connect track 7 output to SMPTE in on JLC box
    - Play the sequence on performer locked to track 8 FSK
    - Record "tempo" map on JLC box
     
    These would need to be backed up via sys-ex to a bulk libraian or 
    Performer.  
    
    - Connect MIDI out on JLC box to MIDI in on Performer (merge with KX88?)
    - Make JLC box Master clock
    - Play tape, SMPTE is read by JLC box on track 7 and converted to MIDI SSP
    - Performer gets clock from JLC box and locks to tape.
    
    I do something similar to this with a SMPTE box (Jambox2) and the
    MC-500 and lock to SMPTE.
    
    I recommend you think about getting the MIDI Time Piece, convert over
    and sell the Y-word box and the MIDI patcher your using.  The Time
    Piece is 8 in /8 out/SMPTE in and out, programmable through Performer.
    No seperate Tempo map.
    
    Dave - who's thinking on upgrading to Mac Classic...
    
    
      
    

    thanks, Dave.  I would like to get an all-in-one sync/MIDI patcher.
    >- Record "tempo" map on JLC box
    >These would need to be backed up via sys-ex to a bulk libraian or 
    >Performer.  
    
    I haven't used a Tempo Map with Performer.  Isn't it saved with the
    sequence ?  As you know, FSK/MIDI Clock determines overall tempo -
    the idea of having a SMPTE tape stripe and the actual tempo be
    different is a bit boggling.
    
    Your description of the steps matches what I thought would be involved.
    
    thanks ! karl, still avoiding Massachussetts
    

    Karl,
    
    If you use Performer and the Time Piece, then the tempo map is
    part/integrated with the sequence.  
    
    If you use the JLC box, then the tempo map must be loaded to the JLC
    via sys-ex first (the MAC is the master).  Next, the JLC box must be 
    made the driver to sync Performer to tape.
    
    I can't store the Sys-ex for a Tempo map in an MC-500 sequence.
    It is loaded from the MC-500 bulk librarian first.  It would be nice
    if it were in the sequence. 
     
    Dave

    
    
    I still don't understand why you would want to use SMPTE unless you are
    going to start working seriously with Video.. The JLC PPS box works
    very well using it's own FSK and you don't have to mess about with Maps
    or anything like that. Timechanges are embbeded into the code which may
    not be as elegant but is much more usable.
    
    					Paul.

>                      <<< Note 422.104 by WOTVAX::KENT >>>
>    I still don't understand why you would want to use SMPTE unless you are
>    going to start working seriously with Video.. 
    
    well, neither do I.. SMPTE seems like overkill.  I just want to be
    able to start the tape at any point in the composition and have 
    Performer on the MAC sync up quickly.  All this rewinding back to
    the beginning is getting old, and wearing the transport needlessly.
    
    >The JLC PPS box works
    >very well using it's own FSK and you don't have to mess about with Maps
>    or anything like that. Timechanges are embbeded into the code which may
>    not be as elegant but is much more usable.
    
    I don't mind having the tempo in the FSK on tape.. it's what I'm using
    now.  I can see that it could be useful to split functions; have an
    absolute timecode on tape and a separate adjustable tempo map.
    
    Is anyone working with separate tempo maps in this sense ?  Advantages
    or disadvantages ?  DaveDreher ?  Len ?
    
    karl

    When I mount a new 8 trk tape, the first thing I do is stripe track 8
    with SMPTE from beginning to end.  It's easier to deal with this way 
    because all time code is written up front once.  When I'm ready to record
    tape tracks for a sequence, and the arrangement and tempo are set, the
    tempo map is created.  After that, I need to load the tempo map to the
    SMPTE box first thing when syncing to tape (this is sort of a pain). 
    The biggest advantage to SMPTE was not having to start from the beginning
    sequence or having syncing problems latter. 
    
    With Karl's situation, having 1 box doing the work of three, controlled 
    from the sequencer package itself is the coolest reason to go with 
    Mark of the Unicorn's MIDI Time Piece.
    
    MIDI TP = Mac MIDI Interface + SMPTE Time Code + 8x8 MIDI Patcher for $369.
    He might be able to sell the stuff he uses for this now, plus have
    new conviniences.
    
    Tempo maps in a stand alone box are more of a pain than dealing with SMPTE 
    through Performer.  SMTPE is an industry standard but JLC proprietary 
    or other quasi-SMPTE sync formats are not.
    
    Decision time, Karl...Are you going to make the "Right" choice?  ;^} 
    
    Dave                     

I use the JL Cooper PPS-1 in SMPTE mode but I haven't gotten to the point of
needing SMPTE with tempo maps.  Although SMPTE in its full glory may be
overkill, I choose to use it for convenience features:

    (1) it gives me a known, standard migration path
    (2) I can start the sequence anywhere on the tape and get synced up in
         1-2 seconds.  Good for dubbing in multi-track parts with sequenced
         parts.  (Though perhaps not unique to SMPTE)
    (3) I can see how long sections of the song and the whole songs are without
         a stopwatch since my sequencer (Pro4) displays a real-time counter
         when used in sync mode.

I probably don't absolutely NEED SMPTE for what I do, but given the marginal
price difference to get started, I thought (and continue to think) that SMPTE
would be the path of choice.

For what it's worth,

- John -

    
    
       Has anyone tried or know anything about the new ANATEK POCKET SYNC.
    From what I can gather, it will strip the tape with MIDI song pointer
    and above all else , it's cheap!!! It's got to be better than my
    current HR16/MMT8 >>> FSK setup.
    
    BC
    

Hey folks- I need a "best guess" pertaining to synch signals.

I have a CMI MIDI interface for the Amiga, which has a Synch-out which is what
its "mini-manual" calls a "DIN standard." The jack is indeed a DIN jack, but I
never heard this term applied to synch protocols. Is this most likely an FSK
signal? I'm about to purchase a 4-track, so now the synch acquires sudden
relevance.

I've got one call into the people who took over CMI (DigiFex), but they needed
to contact someone else for the information and call me back. Right. I'll try
them again today, but I figured someone on the net might have a faster and
equally accurate answer. Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
	Bob

    Roland had a convention for synching through a DIN connection.  They
    have since abandoned it in favor of MIDI.  I don't know that anyone
    else adopted the Roland convention; is this "DIN synch" output in 
    addition to the MIDI out(s)?
    
    The Roland synch was *not* a tape synch - it was used to synch up
    multiple (for example) drum machines and sequencers.  My understanding
    is that it consisted of a start/stop signal and a clock signal.
    
    len.
    

Thanks for the reply, len.

The Synch port is in addition to 1 in and three thru/outs.

The quote from the "manual" is: "This port sends out SYNC signals to allow you
to control drum machines, sequencers, and other MIDI devices that use the DIN
SYNC standard."

The pinouts are given, and may provide a clue to someone more silicon-literate
than I:

	pin 1:	Start/Stop output
	pin 2:	Ground
	pin 3:	Clock +5 sync pulse output
	pin 4:	not used
	pin 5:	not used

Maybe you've hit the answer with your suggestion, dunno. I'll try the company
again (they're West Coast USA) when West Coast business hours permit; I can't
be too optimistic about getting a definitive answer, though. Let me know if the
added information ties down the type of signal with any certainty. Thanks again.

Cheers,
	Bob

    Sure looks like the Roland convention.  As I said before, nobody uses
    it anymore, but if you have a Roland TR-606 or TR-808, or the little
    bass synth (TR-606's brother), they took DIN sync only (pre-MIDI).
    I don't know if any other company adopted it, but it would almost
    certainly apply only to gear now considered "obsolete".
    
    It's definitely not a tape synch.  Unless the interface has an explicit
    tape synch port (some of them do), to do synch to tape you'll need a
    box that does MIDI-to-tape synch conversion, or something that has
    both MIDI and tape synch that can be used as the master clock, with the
    Amiga interface slaved to it via the MIDI connection.
    
    len.
     

Thats-what-I-thought-I-didn't-want-to-believe-it-sh*t!

Time to start paying serious attention to those synch-box doodads. Hmph.
Thanks, len. You know, I've heard of you, but I always thought you were just a
macro or a library function or something. The next time someone laughs when they
hear me talking to my C library reference manual, I can smugly assure them that
you really exist!

Seriously, thanks for the info.

Cheers,
	Bob

    DIN SYNC is a Roland, and a few other manufactures, sync standard from 3-6 
    years ago.  It is a PPQ format (Pulses Per Quarter-note).  I read my 
    SBX-10 manual (old sync box, want to buy one?) and it is 24 PPQ using a 
    MIDI jack.  The major PPQ formats featured Time Bases of 24, 48, 96,
    and 120.  If the the sync tone sounds like buzzing then it's PPQ, if it
    sounds like bird trilling then it's FSK, if it sounds like static then
    its a digital data dump.  SMPTE sounds like FSK and a digital dump,
    together.
    
    After using PPQ, FSK, and SMPTE, I've found FSK more reliable than PPQ,
    but SMPTE allows you to start from the middle of songs.  With PPQ and
    FSK, you have to start from the beginning every time to snyc.
    
    I used an SBX-10 which supports PPQ, DIN SYNC, MIDI clock, and metronome
    to sync a pre-MIDI LinnDrum to an MSQ-700 sequencer (fore-runner to the 
    MC-500, no disk).  It synced to tape using PPQ.  The SBX-80, which 
    supports SMPTE, replaced the earlier SBX-10 for $1000.  Now SMPTE/MIDI 
    boxes go for around $200.

    Dave

Thanks for the cogitations regarding my unidentified synch signal. I finally got
through to a technician who was the company's best shot at providing a precise
answer to my question, and all he knew was that "it's for a drum machine." He
couldn't even confirm or deny the premise that it was for a Roland machine!

I consider the issue as settled as it's going to get. It sounds to me that my
best approach is to regard this port as essentially useless, and plan to
purchase a synchbox thingie of some kind. Sigh. Decisions, decisions. Money.
It's always SUMPtin, innit?

Cheers,
	Bob

    This is re my sync upgrade goals and Dave Dreher's recommendation I
    move to a MIDI Time Piece from MOTU.  At NAMM in Anaheim on Saturday,
    I stopped at the MOTU booth and got some questions answered.
    
    My issue is that once I upgrade, what happens to all those 8track dubs
    with FSK on 'em ?  I know SMPTE has NO piece-specific timing imbedded
    in it.  I assume I won't be able to sell my YMC10 FSK box at all.  And
    I want to be able to start and stop the tape and have Performer follow
    it perfectly.. I did find that I can easily import my old sequences 
    into the new Performer - backwards compatible.
    
    So here's the scenario :
    
    Preparatory) Using Performer, I make a 10-minute long sequence of quantized
    quarter note C3 MIDI note events.
    
    Preparatory) I download this sequence to the EMAX' moron sequencer and 
    name it and save it.
    ---
    A) I stripe SMPTE next to FSK on the 8track tape I want to sync.
    
    B) I tell Performer to expect a TAP TEMPO track coming in for the
    sequence.
    
    C) I tell the EMAX to listen to and start based on incoming MIDI clock
    
    D) I start the tape.
    
    E) The EMAX sends perfectly-quantized quarter-note C3's MIDI note
    events based on FSK and MIDI sync.
    
    F) Performer, with the (old) sequence loaded, sees the incoming note
    events as TAP TEMPO, and builds a Tempo Map based on that.  I save it,
    and from then on SMPTE and the TEMPO MAP allow me to start and stop the
    tape anywhere within the composition.
    
    karl

    Sounds like you have the right idea, Karl.
    
    I also took my own advice.  I just bought a Mac Classic, MIDI Time Piece, 
    and Vision.   The MTP up and running the MIDI network while I learn 
    Vision.  My MX-8 is for sale.
    
    Dave

                     <<< Note 422.117 by FSDEV2::DDREHER >>>
    >... I just bought a Mac Classic, MIDI Time Piece, 
    >and Vision.   
    
    I'm looking very hard at a 4Mb Mac classic with the 40Mb HD, MTP, and
    Performer.  Looks about $2400 total.  OUCH.  BTW, Dave, what was your
    total, just between us accountants ?
    
    karl

    re: OUCH...
    
      I think you guys are funny!  :-)    here you throw down between $1500
    and $3000 for music gear with excitement, then complain when you get a
    mac that costs just the same!    ...I guess it's all in the eye of the
    beholder!
    
      Just for the record, I get exited when I spend money on the MAC, and
    complain about the synth's cost!!
    
    Bruce Evans

    Bruce, you could be right.. maybe 'cause I work with systems all the
    time, they're devalued in my eyes.
    
    I priced Performer ($371) and the MIDI Time Piece ($371).  Nix on the
    MTP, I already HAVE a working MIDI routing system, so am getting a JL
    Cooper PPS-1 for $160 and a MIDI interface from somebody for about $50.
    
    karl

Yo Karl, I believe I saw the PPS-1 at Sam Ash for about $120, FWIW. Once I get
started recording, I was considering it as a simple-but-effective synch.

Cheers,
	Bob

    This is evolving into a combination MIDI routing and syncing problem..
    
    I purchased a 1-year-old MAC Plus with 2.5 Mb memory and a 45 Mb hard
    drive for $1000, saving about $700 over a new Classic.  Now I'm ready
    to finish the deal; new Performer ($371 at my favorite store), and SOME
    kind of sync.. A note on Performer; in order to do SPP, it sees only a 
    protocol called DTL, Direct Time Lock.  
    
    I'm SO confused !  The newer sync boxes (MOTU Midi Time Piece, JL
    Cooper SyncMaster) also do MIDI routing; not a bad idea, except that they 
    need the MAC up and running to change a route.  I often just go in the
    studio and turn on one SGU (usually the Kurzweil), flip a switch on my
    $99 SONUS MIDIswitcher to tell it to listen  to the KX88, turn on
    enough audio to hear what I'm playing, and play.  So with one of these
    fancy boxes, I'd have to have the MAC up and running whenever I wanted
    to fiddle around.  Not conducive to creative reverie (Nero Wolfe says
    that's an oxymoron).  My existing routing system is just big enough to 
    handle my various MIDI units; 
    
    SONUS MIDIswitcher, 2 in, 8 out
    KX88, (send only) 
    Roland SPD-8, Macintosh, Yamaha YMC10 FSK box (send/receive) 
    EMAX, 1000PX (receive only)
    
    As I WILL have to continue to support FSK until all my sequences-with-
    tape are upgraded to SMPTE/Performer Tempo Map, I must also now support
    another sync box doing send/receive itself.  Later, the YMC10 can go.
    So add : New (as yet unpurchased) SMPTE sync unit (send/receive)
    
    So my dilemma is that my MIDI routing is about to be overloaded in
    order to include another sync box in the circuit; if I go to an
    integrated sync box/MIDI router, then it appears the MAC must be up and
    running to effect any switching, making just going in and playing a
    more complex undertaking.  The candidates :
    
    MOTU Midi Time Piece; lots'o'SMPTE formats, DTL output, MTC output,
    	8 ins, 8 outs.  Serial to MAC.  Routing software on MAC. $371.
    
    JL Cooper Syncmaster; several SMPTE formats, FSK, MTC, DTL, unknown
        number of MIDI ports. Serial to MAC. Routing software on MAC.  $249
    
    MIDIMan SYNCman $159.  several SMPTE formats, MTC, DTL, no MIDI
        routing.  $159   - also would need a MAC MIDI adapter. $59.
    
    JL Cooper PPS-1; one SMPTE format, MTC, DTL.  No MIDI routing. 
        $120-160.  - also would need a MAC MIDI adapter. $59.
    
    Help me wade through these options.  Dave Dreher, you're using the MOTU
    box with Vision.  Lots of PPS-1 users out there.  help ?  karl

    Opcode also makes one of those do-everything interface units.  It even
    has places to plug in two foot switches and a continuous controller
    as an extra controller inputs.  It is called the "Studio 3".  $300 at
    Sam Ash.
    
    2 ins, 6 outs, connects to both modem and printer port for 32 channels.
    
    Reads and writes all SMPTE formats, sends MTC.  (No mention of DTL)
    Also can Jam Sync, regenerating the SMPTE code.
    
    If I was going to get one of these things, this is the one I would get,
    but that is because I use Vision and the Studio 3 has special features
    that Vision can take advantage of.

    I did in fact just invest (via analog voicemail) in Performer v3.5 and
    an Opcode Studio 3 box.  When the MAC is off it does offer soft thru
    from one MIDI in (KX88) to 3 MIDI outs.  And since it does the sync
    itself I don't need an extra pair of MIDI ins/outs for SMPTE
    write/read.  Besides, it's a 1-high rack unit, which is perfect,
    because that's right where all the MIDI cables terminate anyway.
    
    So thanks for being a sounding board. Especially you, Paul.
    
    This weekend (besides visiting our tax accountant) I'll be in the
    studio rewiring.
    
    karl

    BTW, FYI, FWIW, JL Cooper Syncmaster has been discontinued.
    
    karl

    As long as Performer can deal with MTC you should be all set.  Back
    before MTC was standardized the MOTU products only supported DTL
    (MOTU's own version of what MTC does) but I am sure they have since
    received market pressure to adopt the standard method.  They were a
    little slow to support standard Midi files too, but now they do.

    According to Synthony, mah favorite store, the Opcode Studio 3 has a 
    MTC/DTL button on the front.  apparently there's so many copies of
    Performer out there that all sync boxes are forced to support it..
    
    karl

    Update.. Having received the OPCODE Studio 3 and Performer together, I
    closely examined the documentation re syncing and SMPTE.
    
    o	Performer now uses 'enhanced' Direct Time Lock (DTLe).
    o	Studio 3 doc mentioned ONLY DTL, no 'enhanced'.
    o	Performer does support Midi Time Code.
    o	Studio 3 does support Midi Time Code.
    o	It appears Performer is lots more comfortable building a Tap Tempo
        Map with DTLe than MTC.
    o	Studio 3 software must be installed as a MAC Desk Accessory, so it
        can run concurrently with your sequencer/librarian/whatever.
    o	Studio 3 doc states that as Performer, ever since v2.41, emits
        Active Sensing (BOOOOOOOOOOO) and as such renders the Studio 3 DA
        software 'unreliable' - thus to use the DA, Performer's MIDI output
        must be disconnected via software.
    o	Performer doc's only mention of Active Sensing is how to filter out
        other SGU's Active Sensing signals.  No mention of its own use.
    o	I spent all these cakes to make my job SIMPLER, not harder !
    o	So I RETURNED the Studio 3 and ordered a MIDI Time Piece.  I can
    hear Dave Dreher laughing from here..  Dave, you were right !
    
    best. karl

    If two companies make software AND hardware, you can bet they are more
    compatible with their own stuff than with the other guys.
    
    MOTU has this strange habit of doing things in just enough of an
    offbeat way to not be exactly compatible with anybody else.
    
    Active Sensing is a scourge that should be wiped from the face of the
    earth.  Just another way to clog our MIDI cables and bog down our CPUs.
    MTC and DTL are enough bandwidth hogs as it is.

    Sorry, I've been away from the net.  We just moved onto MR01 this week.
    
    Anyway, Karl and I talked over the phone.  Glad to see you finally
    made the "right" choice, Karl.
    
    Some points about MOTU MIDI Time Piece:
    
    It is has a DA, and it can be used as a MIDI switcher.  This is the
    way I use it right now, as I learn Vision.  I haven't attempted slaving
    a sequencer via SMPTE, but the reader DA function displays SMPTE written
    by my JAMBOX2 on tape just fine.
    
    Also, the MOTU MTP has a default setting.  This means the Mac doesn't
    have to be on when the system is powered up.  This default setting has
    the keyboard and guitar controllers routed to everything else.
    
    SMPTE sequencing will be attempted this weekend...
    
    Dave
    
    Oh, cost for the upgrade:
    
    	MacIntosh Classic 2 meg/40MB hard drive	       $1199
        MOTU MIDI Time Piece				$389
    	Vision sequencer				$375
    
    But hope to sell:
    
    	Roland MC-500 sequencer 			$300
        Jambox2						$100
    	MX-8 MIDI patcher				$200

I've been reviewing this and other notes with an eye toward purchasing a synch
box with modest but adequate capabilities. While I haven't settled on SMPTE for
sure, I'd like the ability to use it as well as or instead of FSK if I've a mind
to, or to synch up with video.

The boxes of that type which I've seen around are the Syncman and the PPS-2.
While I've seen a lot of references to the PPS-1, I haven't seen or heard much
on the PPS-2, its successor, and I've heard nothing about the Syncman at all.
One of the folks at Sam Ash had bad things to say about the PPS-2's SMPTE
ability- claimed the sequencer "wandered," not synching up tightly. Of course, he
was trying to push the PPS-100, so...

Any input (pun intended) in this area? Additional candidates? (Cheap castoffs for
sale?) The PPS-100 *does* seem pretty impressive, BTW...

Thanks for any info-
		Bob

    Bob, read the fine print VERY carefully.  There's a big (IMO) zit with
    the budget SMPTE syncboxes - they have to be downloaded (via SYSEX)
    with a tempo map before the sequence will lock up.  I know the PPS-1
    (and probably the -2) requires this, and seem to recall the SYNCMAN 
    does as well.
    
    The units made by MOTU and OPCODE don't require tempo map download.
    But then you get into software dependencies.
    
> .... or to synch up with video.
    
    There's MORE fine print.  There's two kinds of SMPTE - VTC and LTC.
    VTC, Vertical Time Code, is imbedded in the video signal.  That's what
    the video pro's use.  LTC, Longitudinal Time Code, runs, uh, lengthwise
    on an audio track.  That's what all these units you're considering 
    generate.  Not necessarily a toe in the door videowise.
    
    karl

Re .132:

Thanks, Karl.

Regarding downloading of tempo maps, I sort of regarded that as a "necessary
evil" unless I want to settle for FSK (or get a higher-end product?). I'm
talking to the J.L. Cooper folks about working a deal... I have no problem with
using a "standard" fixed-rate tempo map, and if I ever do, Bars and Pipes has
some pretty flexible tempo-mapping features which *should* (powerful word, isn't
it?) ease the pain a bit.

As to video, being an Amigan, I get exposed to a lot of the nitty-gritties of
video requirements. I haven't paid detailed attention to the various types of
"lockup boxes" I'd need if I ever do this, but I do realize I'd need more gear.
However, having sequences keyed to SMPTE in the first place would at least leave
the *door* open, with or without the toe of yours truly...

I do believe that were I a MACite, I would have gone the MOTU route. As it is, I
at least benefited from the upgrade of one our own who sold off his MX-8 so that
*he* could switch to the MIDI timepiece.

Bob

    Huh?  A PPS-1 does not use a tempo map.  If it is even capable of such
    a thing I missed it inthe manual.  In SMPTE mode all it tells
    you is what time it is.  All tempo mapping is done in the sequencer.
    
    Now if you use a PPS-1 in the "smart FSK" mode, where it outputs
    midi clocks instead of MTC messages, yes, you have to stripe the
    tape with tempo changes in place.

    re .134 Paul, you could be right about the PPS-1.. but I have a clear 
    recollection that ONE of the JLCooper boxes required a downline load of
    a tempo map, so that it could send MTC to your sequencer.
    
    karl, possibly confused, but still cognizant that for some reason I
    think that having to pre-download a tempo map is a BAD THING.

    Entirely possible that one of them does want a tempo map.  If they were
    trying to generate MTC from MIDI CLOCK they would need a map, or vice
    versa.  Generating MTC from clock sounds pretty bizzare to me - maybe
    for reworking an old tape that was not striped with SMPTE?
    
    These days SMPTE is the way to go, and keep the tempo map in the
    sequencer where you can play with it.
    
    In "Smart FSK" record mode the PPS1 records your midi clock timing
    on the tape, which can be thought of as a tempo map in a way.  A
    permanent tempo map! (yuk)  But the PPS1 (the little grey box) is
    not clever enough to store anything inside itself.

>- maybe for reworking an old tape that was not striped with SMPTE?
    
    Allegedly, supposedly, in the December issue of EQ Magazine there MAY
    appear (it's been bumped twice) an article written by me around how to
    automate the process of upgrading existing sequences [synced-to-tape 
    via FSK] to SMPTE.
    
    karl 

    EQ Magazine FAXed me the graphic which will accompany my article "FSK
    to SMPTE Conversion" or whatever it ends up called.  It certainly wasn't
    in the November-December '91 issue.  EQ is bimonthly/sexannually..
    
    So this must mean they're done bumping it and might actually PRINT the
    damn thing.  You, as COMMUSICIANS, already KNOW the salient points in
    the article, as you doubtless printed out and committed to memory my reply 
    422.116 long ago.
    
    karl

Believe it or not, I have some info to offer (as opposed to yet another question)
this time 'round.

I've finally purchased a synch box for my four-track and my sequencer, and I
ended up with MIDIman's "Syncman." I'd been considering the J.L. Cooper PPS-2,
but was put off by critical comments from both Sam Ash and Caruso's personnel
(and both carry the box, which adds credibility). Tony, at Caruso's, has a list
of comparison data right at hand, which was pretty convincing- I don't recall
the specs, sorry, I tend to forget data as soon as it's no longer relevant to me.
The upshot was that Tony's specs explained the hit I heard from Sam Ash that
the PPS-2 has trouble locking to SMPTE.

Anyway, I hooked up the Syncman, striped a bit of tape, and verified successful
readback, then striped an entire tape so that it's "master ready." Since some of
the tape has material on tracks one and two (vocal and guitar), all should be set
to add some virtual synth tracks. BTW, this was my real crying need for synching
to tape: I *don't* start with synth tracks, but with real live analog stuff, so
until now I was limited to physically recording one synth part at a time over
the guitar and vocal tracks.

Cost at Caruso's (or Sam Ash) was $119.00. The unit can write SMPTE or what they
call "Song-Pointer-Sync" (SPS). It can read SMPTE and generate MTC (MIDI Time
Code) or Direct Lock (DTL, isn't it?), or read SPS and generate "Song-Pointer"
(I guess they mean SPP?) and "MIDI Timing" (I guess this means MTC?). It can also
duplicate synch tracks and regenerate damaged synch tracks.

One nice side feature is that the MIDI in (which is redundant for SMPTE code
generation) merges with the MIDI out, so you can "piggyback" a MIDI input while
reading SMPTE.

There's no built-in ability to input the starting time for the SMPTE stripe, but
you can start striping by sending a MIDI User Bit Message and a MIDI Time Code
Offset message, and stop it by sending a MIDI Sytem Stop message. There's no
mention of channels, so I guess it will read these from any channel. I also don't
have the foggiest what the "User Bit message" is all about; since I'd like to
use this feature from Bars and Pipes Pro, I intend to call their support line
today.

Oh, BTW- an insert came with my unit indicating that all Syncman units are now
warranteed *FOR LIFE!*

Hope this is useful to someone...

Bob

    Maybe I'm ignorant, or maybe I'm just confused, so I'm gonna ask (no,
    this isn't the question...)  8^)
    
    (yes folks, "Fearless Hack Guitar Player Risks All Asking Stupid
     Questions In COMMUSIC"...film at 11).
    
    In .-1, Bob says:
    
>Anyway, I hooked up the Syncman, striped a bit of tape, and verified successful
>readback, then striped an entire tape so that it's "master ready." Since some of
>the tape has material on tracks one and two (vocal and guitar), all should be set
>to add some virtual synth tracks. BTW, this was my real crying need for synching
>to tape: I *don't* start with synth tracks, but with real live analog stuff, so
>until now I was limited to physically recording one synth part at a time over
>the guitar and vocal tracks.
    
    How do you get the 'synch sppeed' to match the already recorded tracks? 
    Having attempted to do the same thing rerecording drum machine parts
    and never getting the time correct, it seems like an interesting issue.
    
    I saw a device to help with that sort of thing advertised in the Dec.
    issue of Mix.  It's called the Russian Dragon (rushin-draggin, get it?)
    and gives a visual indication of time drift between two rhythmic
    sources.
    
    Greg

Re .140:

Finally, my chance to join the elitist snobs!!! (Snobs 'R' Us?)

Maybe my statement wasn't clear enough and was misinterpreted, so I'll try to
explain:

What I *do* expect to do is to lay down *new* synth tracks in synch with
existing vocal/guitar tracks already recorded. What I *don't* expect to do is
play back existing synth tracks in perfect synch with tracks already on tape.

The limits imposed by having to play and record each synth track separately
(i.e., not leave them as "virtual" tracks stored only as sequences) were so
frustrating/depressing that I didn't much care about discarding any tracks so
recorded. As for the sequences yet to be overlaid, SMPTE is an absolute time
reference, knowing nada about tempo, beats, measures and whatnot. When I lay
down a synth track/sequence, using the SMPTE track as the external time
reference, each MIDI event will be *locked* to an absolute time in reference to
the synch track (and thus the recorded music as well). So, the synch track is
the "time boss" from each sequence's creation.

Fly in the ointment? Can't quantize, big deal. If I don't have good enough timing
to play something after *this* many years, I prolly don't wanna play it
anyway! Besides, all I ever read about quantizing is how hard folks try to
pretend it never happened in the first place. Oh, I do have *one* use for it-
it's almost a necessity for translating sequences to printed scores; that can be
done as a separate exercise, though, with no consideration of the taped tracks.
This is currently a moot point with me, as the deficiencies in Bars and Pipes
Pro's notation feature make it virtually useless to me. (sigh...)

Hope this is clearer...

Bob

    Thanks Bob, I understand now.  For some reason I thought you were
    dealing with existing sequences and that sounded like a hard problem.
    
    Greg

    Most people deal with this situation in one of two ways:
    
    1. Put down a click track first and play your guitar, etc. to that, then
       add MIDI stuff.
    
    2. Play the guitar, etc. first, then create a tempo map that goes with
       that. I had a JamBox SMPTE interface that would let you enter the
       tempo by playing in quarter notes (or whatever) along with the 
       recorded music (varying tempo as necessary); you could also use a
       regular part like bass or bass drum and it would read that to create
       a tempo map.
    
    You can also do what you're doing, of course (no tempo map), but this
    makes it hard to make any "numerical data" corrections to the sequenced 
    tracks, which could be split notes, etc., besides wanting to quantize. 
    It's just difficult to find which notes to correct. Using your method,
    it's easier to just punch in to correct errors. Sounds like you'd be
    happiest with that method anyway. Many sequencers let you set punch-in
    and punch-out points automatically, so you won't record too far.
    
    -Ross

Re .143:

Ross- well, I didn't say I was too proud to have a "metronome" going in my
sequencer, which I may do on occasion. I usually don't, though, as I do make
deliberate, though small, tempo changes fairly often, and my time sense is
pretty strong.

Bars and Pipes Pro does have the ability to create and manipulate tempo maps
*internally,* which is a feature I haven't used yet, but may now find
indispensable- time will tell. I'm certainly glad that I *don't* have to create
and download a tempo map to the Syncman, which seems to have been a hard
requirement for such boxes in the no-too-distant past.

Since I'm just beginning this chapter, o' course, I don't yet know how it ends.
I'll post anything which threatens to be of interest to anyone but me...

Bob

    My PPS-2 does indeed have trouble staying locked to SMPTE.  I think
    it is very particular about the levels coming off the tape.
    Can anyone else using the PPS-2 say if they have had this happened?
    
    btw, I am using this on a machine with Dolby C that can not be turned
    off one just one track.
    
    Symptom is that the lock light will go out for a second here and there,
    causing the sequencer to freeze, then catch up when the lock light
    comes on again.

Re .145:

I think you're right about the level- I've seen mention of this somewhere in
the notesfile, perhaps even in this very topic. It also came up in talking to
Caruso's and Sam Ash.

A separate issue was a spec called, if I recall correctly, "bit jitter." (I know
it was *something* jitter!) This was in terms of microseconds or milliseconds,
but it was one place where the PPS-2 looked pretty bad in comparison to the
Syncman.

The level-sensitivity thing might be somewhat amenable to correction- do you
have any inputs with trim pots, i.e. so you could *record* the sync at a greater
sensitivity to start with? My four-track has separate jacks for sync in and out
(and does allow its dbx to be turned off), but so far I've had no problem with
level of the tone.

Good luck-
	Bob

    You are not alone, I recently started striping SMPTE with my PPS-2
    I was using FSK before and did not have as much trouble. I was 
    beginning to think it was the tape recorder a Porta 1. It seems like
    its tape drop out but I noticed it happenning at different places on
    the tape, that is not the same place every time. 
    I have a project that's a month behind because of this, so I may
    revert to smart FSK.
    
    Errol

    Not a PPS-2 reply.. I use a MOTU Midi Time Piece.  It incorporates
    something they call 'flywheeling'.  If the audio SMPTE stream has
    dropouts it allegedly continues to xmit MTC, DTLe or MIDI Clock (which
    they call MIDI 'beat' clock.  BTW I record the SMPTE stream at -3 DB
    onto track 7 or 8 on a 15ips FOSTEX A8 deck that has Dolby C on all 
    tracks, and I've never seen the lock light even flicker.  
    
    Watch, this weekend it'll crap out on me.. ;-)
    
    karl

Re .148:

I think that's one of those functions which has become sort of "standard," but
for which each manufacturer has a proprietary term. Syncman calls it "Jam synch."
I don't know if the PPS-2 claims any such function.

(BTW, if I recall correctly, the Syncman's output is at nominal -4DB.)

Dunno if any of this helps the PPS-2 situation, though...

Bob

    Jam sync is the ability to write another, identical audio sync track
    on the same or another machine.  It has nothing to do, IMO, with
    flywheeling over dropouts.  At least not as the term is used in the
    MOTU documentation.
    
    karl

Re .150:

I had occasion to synch some more over the weekend (just as well, as it certainly
wasn't the right weather to swim), and lo and behold, some of the gray cells may
in fact be working after all!

Although it's *possible* that MIDIman is using the term "Jam synch" with the same
meaning as MOTU, the manual clearly *implies* that it indeed blithely glosses
over dropouts dynamically, as opposed to only when performing synch tone
duplication. I wish I could be more definite, but the manual is quite brief on
all counts; my conclusion is based on both what is said and where it appears-
i.e., *not* in the section on duplicating a synch track.

The *good* news is that so far the Syncman has performed like the proverbial
appliance, making the brief manual appropriate- except in a few cases like this,
eh? I guess I'd give tech support a call on this if I ever *do* start
experiencing dropouts, and otherwise take an optimistic reading.

Bob

    With these sync boxes with flywheeling, what happens when you stop the
    tape?  Does the sequencer coast on for a while?  Hopefully there is
    a limit to how long the box will continue to output MTC.
    
    I suppose one could become used to this.

    J. L. Cooper tech support says that the PPS-2 is indeed sensitive to
    levels.  I am suspicious that my deck's record and playback levels
    are not calibrated, so I am going to see to that first.  Once I
    have the playback level set to spec, I will do some more experiments.
    
    The guy on the phone said that the PPS-2 does indeed do flywheeling,
    but only for 6 frames, which is a fifth of a second.

Re .152:

Well, the Syncman definitely stops- apparently doesn't exist in the mythical
frictionless universe. Can't say I noticed how long it took, though.

Bob