Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Re; TX modules and TX/816
    
    	The TX/816 is 8 TX1's.  They are absolutely identical.
    
    	Each module is one-voice only.  Together, of course, they
    can produce 8 timbres simultaneously.  Gotta have a DX7 or a
    computer to 'program' them, though.
    
    	Can anyone supply the best price they've seen on a TX/816?
    
    	Warning on sampling machines:  If you are going to have more
    than a few instruments playing at the same time, consider the effect
    of splitting the keyboard on the range of the instruments.
    
    	Most instruments have a range of (at least) 3 octaves.  That's
    36 notes/keys.  Which means that even on an 88 note keyboard, you
    will have less than 3 instruments!
    
    	Want 8 instruments?  That's less than an octave per instrument.
    
    	I'm not saying you can't do a lot with the instrument - clearly,
    you don't need 3 octaves for a cow-bell.  But be careful if you
    have visions of synthesizing the NY Philharmonic.
    
    								- Karl

    Even on split keyboard configurations, can't you access both voices
    over the full keyboard range via two adjacent MIDI channels (a la
    split-2 mode on the super jupiter?)
    
    len.
    

    Len,
    
    Re: -1      If I understand your question correctly, the answer
    is NO.  2 of my synths (DX21 and Mirage) have split keyboard capability.
    Neither will respond to multiple MIDI channels (OMNI excluded, natch).
    Both voices must be programmed on the same MIDI channel.
    
    Both of these units have user-definable split points.
    
    When using 1 side of a split for Bass guitar, I've found it real
    helpfull to set the bass patch to mono. This frees up 3 voices on
    the other half. (DX specific, I know, but it might be of help.)
    
    Did I answer the right question?
    
    Edd_who_now_is_happy_with_3_count_em_3_synths!

Thanks for the input so far. I was unaware of some of the issues
surrounding splits. The things Karl Malik mentioned in reply 1 
plus its inability to respond to more than 5 octave inputs
are the reasons I'm going to avoid the Mirage rackmount for now. 

There is an ad in the latest (May '86) Keyboard that caught my eye.
Text follows :
"--------------------------------------------------------------------
                 'Book Your PC into a concert hall'. 
All the voices of an orchestra in a single add-on board for (various
PC clones.) Complete software is supplied to create a flexible studio
or performance system. Each stereo synth board has 16 voices with
independent timbres. Or insert up to four boards for 64 voices.
You'll have the power to create your own waveforms and to replay 
sampled sounds at a 50kHz sample rate. You'll have recording studio
flexibility with the system's 64-track, 65,000 note memory. Input from
one or more MIDI channels, or from your PC's keyboard. Output to as
many as 16 MIDI channels. Graphically edit 256-point envelopes.

Tecmar's Music Synthesizer System can do it all for under $800.
(216)349-1009
--------------------------------------------------------------------"

Well, if the voices info is true, I can get a used Compaq or Kaypro
for $750, plus $800 for their stuff, the price of a Mirage rackmount.

The ad implies there are 2 major chunks: the four synth boards
(plus MIDI interface card) as performance system, and, second, the
envelope editing/sequencer software.

I called these folks, and hung up more confused than before the call.
The few facts I extracted are:

- it's not ready for sale.
- the boards are done, the software is being 'polished'.
- it requires a PC/clone with 256 kmem, graphics board, 1 flop minimum.
- uses an 'additive digital synthesis' method
- either will or won't have a library of patches
- either will or won't allow user sampling
- either do or don't have a library of samples
- MIDI interface requires 'multifunction' card. Unclear if they make it
  or u buy one from Passport, etc. Their boards use 'current looping'.
- there is no demo tape we could hear. No plans for one.
- Tecmar hasn't figured out how to market this. They HAVE determined
  that traditional PC dealers wouldn't be ideal. Marketing giants
  they're not.
- their tecchie, 'Andy' will call me back in a couple of days.

Can anyone give me some tips as to what questions to ask the techrep
when (if?) he calls back ?

Karl

    ...ask him what he does for a living.
    
    Edd

    The product is obviously "vaporware", but it might be fun to ask
    about it anyway.  Ask how long a note can be if it is played at
    50,000 samples per second with no looping.  Ask how many bits 
    per sample.  Ask how many notes the sequencer will hold if the PC
    has only 256K of memory.  Ask if the sequencer's on-disk format
    is compatible with any other PC software's on-disk format.  If
    not, ask if they have editing and printing in their software.
    
    They'll probably offer you a job, writing the software.  Don't
    accept.
        John Sauter

    re .-n - Yes, Edd, you answered the right question.  My remark left
    a lot to assume, so, ENABLE(Len, ExplainMode)...
    
    Three of my synths have the nice ability to go multitimbral.  Each
    one does it a different way.  The CZ-101 you put in MONO mode, select
    a base MIDI channel "n", and then the CZ-101 will play one note
    on each of channels "n", "n+1", "n+2", and "n+3".  The Polaris has
    separate enables for each channel, and it will receive on up to
    8 channels altogether even though it has only 6 voices.  If you're
    not playing more than 6 notes at a time, you can have access to 8
    voices this way.  The SuperJupiter will receive on two channels
    at a time in split-2 mode.  Both the Polaris and the SuperJupiter
    use the same base and successive channels concept as the CZ.  In
    all cases the entire MIDI note space that the synth recognizes is
    available over all enabled channels.
    
    DISABLE(Len, ExplainMode)
    
    len.
     

    None of mine work that way.  An obvious problem is when voice lines
    cross.  Some keyboards have "zone" splits, i.e., they split they
    keyboard into more than two areas.  You can also do all of this
    stuff between the keyboard and the synth modules with software or
    dedicated hardware.  Such boxes are starting to appear as products.
    
    len.
    

    Article in Micro Marketworld Apr 14 '86
    
    TECMAR LAUNCHES REORG, LAYS OFF 100
    
    ... but they were 'mostly assemblers', sez prez. Tecmar will now
    mfr. some products on a contractual basis with independent firms.
    
    ... these guys are a major supplier of boards for the PC world ...
    
    Maybe not total B.S. after all !
    
    
    

Re: .10
    
    Watch who you're callin' B.S., buddy!
    
8-}

    Have you considered buying a Casio CZ 5000?  This is their
    Top-of-the-Line PDM synth with a nice big keyboard (although I don't
    remember just HOW big).  There is also an on board 8-track sequencer,
    if memory serves me.  I feel Casio's phase distortion synthesis
    method is a far better approach than Yamaha's "algorithm" FM method,
    but frankly, they need more oscillators.

    I have seen the future, and it is expensive.
    
    someone commented recently that 'it all' costs ~$10K. Righto!
    Yesterday I visited Phoenix (Miami AZ) for business, and while there
    checked out Synthony Music, probably the Southwest's only keyboards/
    studio only shop.
    
    Well. My priorities have changed. First, I played the Roland MKS-20
    digital piano again. While I liked it, it wasn't as rich as the
    Kurzweil sitting right next to it. However $1500 vs $14,000 is
    persuasive. It's got some features I hadn't twigged to before. While
    it's got 8 basic patches, it's got lots of editing features including
    internal EQ, touch/velocity adjustments, phase editing, etc. It's
    also got a fine tune adjustment... so, while driving home, I fantasized
    using a sequencer to record a piece. Just one track. Then, using
    sync - to - TEAC 3340, I record the piano on one tape track. Then
    I detune the synth a few cents and record to another tape track.
    Then I sharpen by a few cents and do one more ! When these three
    tape tracks are (panned left/center/right) mixed down thru a good
    reverb to stereo, seems to me that it could sound VERY rich. Is
    this too elaborate? Do I need a harmonizer?
    
    Next... I've been seduced by the Oberheim Xpander. 6 voices, 6 separate
    simultaneous timbres available on 6 separate outputs. 100 voices
    or 50 splits. Don't know what the list is, I can walk out of Synthony
    with one for $1995 + tax. is this a deal? There's only a few left
    at this price, so I'm gonna haveta move on this.
    
    So. Here's how it shakes out, in order of purchase :
    
    Ob Xpander. essentially 6 synths in one....................$2094.75
    Yamaha KX/88 88 note MIDI keyboard controller..............$1380.00
    Alesis MIDIverb............................................$ 400.00
    Roland MKS-20 Digital Grand Piano..........................$1575.13
                                                 subtotal      --------
                                                               $5449.88
    Apple Fat Mac w/extra drive, printer.......................$1400.00
    Another 6-channel mixer....................................$ 200.00
                                                 grand total   --------
                                                               $7049.88
    
    And that's without upgrading from 4 - to -8 track recording.
    And there goes my bank account. And my motorcycle, and my faithful,
    HEAVY old Fender Rhodes. And my wife?
        
    
        

    I once figured keyboard ecstasy occurs at about $100K but then again
    I have extremely expensive taste anyway!
    
    I could live with the system in -.1 though.... :-)
    
    		Derek

    Whenever I get tempted by this kind of situation, I think about
    my friends.  Although I have my share of stuff, I try to combine
    my equipment with other people's equipment to do unusual things.
    (Several readers of this conference can attest to my willingness
    to drag my "studio" around New England.)
    
    I suggest you get together with like-minded people in your area
    and divide up the burden, such that each of you has a viable
    configuration, but together you can do far more than any one of
    you individually.  Then, to satisfy your cravings, congregate!
        John Sauter

    re -1 : pooling equipment idea
    
    Well, John, I'm no dummy, I checked out the scene. The only people
    with any MIDI setups (generally NOT for recording) are these skinny
    kids with funny haircuts and strange (i.e. not mine) musical tastes.
    
    km

    You know how, a few replies back, I said that as I learned, the
    picture kept shifting? Well, the note where I added up my then-
    current wish list and it came to ~$7K really sat me down. I 
    printed it out and talked it over with my ever-supportive spouse,
    and we figured we could afford this all at once...
    
    So, once again on the (desert) road between tucson and phoenix,
    it dawned on me that I can afford the new Emulator II. Nothing
    else, just the one box. However, that box has an integral 8-track
    sequencer (eliminating the Fat Mac & software), supposedly good
    piano samples (eliminating the Roland MKS-20 Digital Piano module)
    and multiple sample capability (eliminating the OB Xpander).
    A major kick is the 5-octave keyboard. Another consideration is
    that I have access to several well-tuned grand pianos, even if the
    piano samples are NFG. 
    
    I found the KEYBOARD review of the E-MU II. One of my fantasies
    is to be playing a 'piano' solo, and then (using a foot pedal?)
    bring orchestration up in the background. The orchestration, in
    my mind, needs to be samples, as traditional instruments are what
    I hear in my head. However, what I've seen (played one for 15 minutes),
    the multisamples are only available in keyboard 'zones'. Making
    conventional performances impossible. 
    
    Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I've ordered the E-Mu demo
    and glossies. I'll be playing one at Synthony in Phoenix this Friday.

    Oh Yes! That firm TECMAR sent me a one-page glossy on their board(s)
    for the PC and clones. If half of their claims are true, could indeed
    be the Answer, like their promo says.
    
    Karl Moeller_who_has_a_network_of_tutors_out_there

    If you're going to put all your money in one basket, make sure it's
    a good one!  Get the dealer to set it up for you in the store,
    with everything he says you need to do what you want, and then
    sit down in front of it and *make sure* it really meets your
    expectations.  For example, is the sequencer big enough for you?
    Is there a convenient way to dump and reload the sequencer,
    so you can set a song aside for a few days while you work on
    something else?  How easy is it to record a sample that meets
    your quality goals (bring a tape recorder to the store with
    your piano on it, sample it, then play both alternately to see
    how faithfully the sampler records your sound).
    
    I'm sure you can think of lots of other things; the point is
    to make the dealer demonstrate them in the store before you buy.
    If he tells you that a feature that you must have will be available
    "real soon now", then tell him you'll be back "real soon now".
    Don't buy futures.
    
    I'd be cautious of Techmar's promises, too.  They've been advertising
    a hard disk for the Commodore Amiga since last year, but it's not
    in the stores yet, and they've increased the price.  Also, rumor
    has it, they've laid off a bunch of people.
    
    Sorry to be such a downer, but I've learned to go real slow when
    spending money, to avoid getting ripped off.  It's really frustrating
    to realize that you've been cheated again by an unscrupulous salesman
    or company.
        John Sauter

    Karl,
    
    Two comments:
    
    	1.) If you buy an Emulator II, I will hate you for the rest
    	of my life! :-)
    
    	2.) More seriously, while you're at it, take a look at the Prophet
    	2000 as well.  I haven't played one but have heard good things.
     	As per John Sauter's suggestion, set the two up next to each
    	other and go wild.
    
    		Good luck and here's to second mortgages!!
    		Derek

    
    	Take your $7k and buy call options on Sperry Inc.  Then, if
    everything goes well, you can buy a Fairlight.
    
    							- Karl

    Taking it all to heart. This Friday I'm going back to that well-
    equipped shop. Have demanded a major demo of both the Oberheim
    Xpander and the E-Mu II+. They also have a Fat Mac with the Digidesign
    E-Mu voice/graphics/librarian software. The E-mu PLUS the Mac is
    hopelessly out of reach at this time. I'll know more in a few days.
    
    BTW on -1 reply : Sperry who? and what are 'call options'? is that
    like 'selling short'?

    ... spaced out the Prophet 2000. If memory serves, it has the same
    5-octave limitation as the Mirage, and the same 'keyboard zone'
    system...
    
    What I *really* want is: 
    
    - 88-note PIANO style keyboard (KX88)
    - a good PIANO sound, simultaneous with
    - multiple KEYBOARD_WIDE samples, each with its own audio output
    - a cheap, capable, BIG (lotsa notes) sequencer with sync-to-tape
    
    I ain't gonna get it, am I?

    Karl Moeller. THANKS FOR YOUR ADVICE.    

Re: .23
    
    That's what *I* really want, too.  But I only have $3.5K, not the
    $7K you've got.  8-(
    
    Too bad we're not closer - we could pool and get a used Synclav.
    
8^)

    Karl,
    
    	**Take your time!***   You ain't gonna have another $7k to blow
    in the very near future.
    
	Consider ordering the manuals to some of the things you are
    considering.  Will the store loan them to you (perhaps, with a
    deposit)?  Read them thoroughly.
    
    	Post an article to USENET's net.music.synth asking if anyone
    already has the equipment you want.  Ask them lotsa questions.
    
    						- Karl
    
    p.s. Interest rates are low; have you considered a loan?

    p.p.s Options are high-risk, time-limited bets that a stock will
    change by a certain number of points. *Don't* put your $7k on
    Sperry unless you would also be happy with a kazoo and toy drum.

    Re: .12
    
    	Why do you say that the Casio's phase distortion synthesis is
    a far better approach than Yamaha's "algorithm" FM method?  It may
    be the subject of another note, but I am trying to decide between
    a Casio and a Yamaha, and don't know enough about either to make
    a choice.  Could you please elaborate?  Thanks.
    
    Todd.
    

    Argh argh argh - another "this is better than that" instead of "this
    is different from that".  Either approach can do things that the
    other can't.
    
    Don't make the choice based on the technology.  Go listen to them
    and hear what they sound like.  This is harder than it sounds because
    the CZ's presets are so lame.  From what I understand the DXs are
    harder to understand how to program (i.e., to get this effect, I
    do this).  The CZs are more like analog synths in this regard, i.e.,
    it's usually fairly obvious what to get to get what effect.
    
    I'd sum it up like this:
    
    If good sounds are important to you but you don't want to do any
    programming, get a DX, their presets are "better" than the CZs'.
    Also there are lots of "somebody else's sounds" for the DXs
    (also many for CZs, but not as many is my impression).
    
    If you don't mind doing some programming or tweaking, but don't
    want to become a wizard, get a CZ, they're easier to program/tweak.
    
    If you don't mind doing a lot of programming, get the manuals for
    both, talk to owners, try them out in the store, etc.  Note that
    you can get a CZ-101 (ignore the tiny keyboard) for use as a slave
    to the DX for a mere additional $300 or so.

edRE:26

I feel the PDM method is better for several reasons.  First of all, it is much 
more accessible.  With FM it is nearly impossible (or at least very time 
consuming) to create a new sound from scratch. (I am referring to the DX method 
of FM systhesis).  Certain sounds that are built from a "classical" additive 
synthesis approach, such as organ stops and the like, are easy, but predicting 
the interaction of operators within a certain algorithm for more complex sounds 
is the stuff math courses are built on.

Although there are DX owners who *can* sit down and program an english horn 
from scratch, I think it's safe to say that the majority of DX owners simply 
use or alter the preprogrammed voices.  This is one reason the DX sound is so 
recognizable--everyone is using the same voices!

With the Casio PDM method you are given several different waveforms to start 
with.  You select a "base" waveform for its particular timbre, much as you  
would with an analog synthesizer, and take it from there.  A control waveform 
alters the way this waveform is read out of memory, producing the 
characteristic phase distortion.  This way, you can easily program a static 
vioce or cause dynamic changes in timbre.

PDM is particularly useful if have an analog synthesis background.  It's easy 
to draw parallels to the oscillators, filters, ring modulators, etc of an 
analog system.  You can't do that with a DX.  Also, (and I know someone is 
going to call me on this) I think the Casio more easily avoids the sterile 
types of sounds the Yamahas are prone to.  Sideband generation is what FM is 
all about.  That's why chimes, gongs, steel drums, and similar sounds are so 
easy to do with a DX.  The problem is voices of this nature have a certain 
coldness to them, resulting in what I call the "frozen turkey" or "irradiated" 
sound that seems to be so popular nowadays.

Mind you, I'm not knocking the Yamaha synthesizers.  I own a CX5M which is 
WONDERFUL for certain (preprogrammed) natural sounds.  But how you would create 
these sounds from scratch without resorting to a Bessel's Function of the First 
Kind, I don't know.  And while I'm on the subject, the CX5M's documentation is 
among the worst I have ever seen, while Casio's is among the best.

Another thing.  Once you become familiar with the CZ setup--and that doesn't 
take long--you will find that creating and altering sounds goes VERY fast.  I 
can't say the same for the Yamahas.

To sum things up, I think that as a tool for creating new sounds the Casio PDM 
method is superior because it is fast and predictable.  On the other hand, if 
you want to use your synthesizer as an electric piano substitute (like 
everybody and his brother) by all means get a Yamaha.  A CZ just can't do it.  

If you can afford to, get *both* for the best of all possible worlds.

John M.  

    I think Len hit it on the head in .27 with the statement concerning
    the difficulty in comparing the DX's with the CZ's because of the
    lame presets on the CZ's.  What I need to hear is a CZ loaded up
    with some respectable patches.  Anybody with a CZ live in the
    Framingham or Marlboro areas of Massachusetts and willing to show
    off some of their sonic programming skills?
    
    TR
    

    Re: .29
    
    I'm thinking of getting a CZ101 for use as a MIDI tone generator.
    I'd like to also hear a CZ demo in the Marlboro/Framingham area, 
    if one might be possible... 8^o
    
    Dave

    An alternative solution is to borrow a good sampling cartridge from
    someone and go down to Wurlitzer's and stick it into their CZ5000
    and listen there.  Anybody wanna lend cartridge for a week or so
    to a very dependable person?
    
    TR
    

    I guess I'm willing to do either.  I live in Westborough, which
    is sort of Framingham/Marlborough area, and I have a cartridge of
    non-preset sounds that sort of exploit the CZ capabilities.
    A live demo would probably be more useful than just loaning out
    the cartridge, as you can ask questions, try things, etc., without
    the "pressure" of a sales environment (though the guys at Wurlitzer
    are usually pretty good about this, and you can tell 'em I sent
    you).  A Sunday afternoon "CZ hands on seminar" is feasible, as
    long as only a small fraction of the Framingham/Worcester axis Noters
    shows up.  Not this Sunday, we have some logistics to work out first.
    Any takers?  If this isn't good, I'll clean up my spare cartridge
    for loan, under the traditional "you break it you own it" rules.
    
    len.
    

    re: .32
    
    Anytime is good for me.  Just name it.
    
    Len, you seem to have an awful lot of gear.  What is your present
    config?  Is it listed someplace in this notes file?
    
    Dave D.

    re: .32
    
    Notes files are excellent, aren't they?  A hands-on demo would be
    incredible informative!  I'm game for any Sunday except 5-18 and
    5-25 (memorial day weekend).  Name it Len.
    
    Todd.
    

    Well, 18's gone and if 25's out, that sort of leaves 1 June as the earliest?
    Is that too far off (two weeks?).  It's okay by me.
    
    I haven't detailed my configuration since my old (now obsolete)
    "who am I" in Music V1, partly out of laziness, partly out of
    paranoia, and partly because it changes over time.  In a nutshell,
    I have 4 synths, 3 drum machines, 2 sequencers, 2 16 channel boards
    (one power amped), an 8 track reel to reel and some effects (reverb,
    delay, compressor/limiter, chorus).  Eventually this will all be
    controlled by my Amiga.  Non MIDI stuff includes a lot of drums and
    cymbals and two guitars (which I never seem to find the time to
    learn how to play).

    len.
    

    ... Speaking of drifting, there IS a CZ topic elsewhere ...
    
    and I think a 'My Studio Contains:' topic would be interesting,
    complete with reasons for various gear.
    
    My latest go-round : Got massive demos of the two basic setups I'm
    considering. The first:
                 KX-88 88 key MIDI controller
                 Roland MKS-20 Digital Piano module (no keybd)
                 Oberheim Xpander
    Well, each time I play the Roland I'm less impressed...(moral: play
    it againandagain B4 U BUY)... and I was confused about the OB_X's
    internal architecture. I thought it had 6 voices X 6 ... 6 synths
    in one. Well, it has (only?) 12 oscillators, assignable up to 6
    separate patches/MIDI channels max, giving a max of 2 voices per
    patch. Plus, many of the settings had that squarewave buzz, which
    COULD be edited back a bit... a good synth, but still a synth...
    
    Which brings me directly to the Emulator II+ w/ 2 drives. I LOVE
    it. I sacrifice some live performance flexibility, but it's got
    a 90,000 NOTE internal sequencer, SMPTE for tape sync... and I'll
    get a library of approx. 70 sample floppies, which include lots
    of samples from the other synths in the store. The clincher was
    the FINE grand piano patch...
    
    So, Guess What?
    
    KM2
    
    

    It's ten days later, there's a deposit on an Emulator, and my L.A.
    equipment connection has just turned my little world upside down.
    It seems that that the studio hotshots are slowly moving away from
    the Emulator in favor of the Sequential Prophet 2000, or the 2002
    with no keyboard. 
    
    I'm SO confused ! The list on the 2000 is ~$2500. Probably quite
    a bit less w/o keyboard... and, if I purchase it thru West L.A.
    Music, I can get not only all the Sequential factory samples, but
    copies of ALL the Emulator samples, too !
    
    Of course, this implies that I'd have to get a 'puter with sequencer
    software, MIDI out and some kind of FSK-based sync-to-tape output.
    But there'd be enough money to do that, and buy a second 2002 rackmount
    as well... 
    
    Am I the only one that finds it almost impossible to get a feel
    for equipment based upon the reviews in KEYBOARD magazine ??? The
    Prophet 2000 review in the Dec '85 issue is almost incomprehensible
    to me. There are no individual outputs for the voices. 12-bit sample
    resolution vs. 14-bit in the Emulator. 256K vs 480K in the Emulator.
    No internal sequencer. Both have analog ADSR-type filtering available
    to modify samples. 
        
    Has anyone heard anything about Sequential's financial position? About 
    their software and hardware support ? I'm gonna be living with this 
    new gear for a LONG time, and I don't want to be 'orphaned'. My 
    impression is that E-Mu systems is quite solid financially, and are 
    continually releasing new options for their samplers, where Sequential
    has dropped all other models and is betting the whole store on the
    2000 and VS. I've got more to say, but later...
    
    KM the IIth
    
    

    Yeah, well, I've decided not to do anything about a sampler until
    I get a chance to play with the Roland S-50, coming "in a month
    or so".  It's that or a 2002 (can't deal with spending more than about
    $2K at a time, so an Emulator's out, besides, I was really disappointed
    by the Drumulator), and I'd just as soon wait to see what the Roland's
    like.
    
    len.
     

    Yeah, well, I'm not a drummer exactly, but someone recently told
    me I had the drummerfinger, so here goes...
    
    This past weekend I attended a barbecue at the Tucson Racquet Club
    where Tucson's best (recorded) rock group, Street Pajama, were playing
    outdoors. I was curious because they had just canned their drummer
    and had "no plans to replace him" (?!) so, they used a Drumulator
    all evening and if you weren't watching you'd have never known there
    wasn't a drummer with a well-mic'ed-and-mixed drumkit. the keyboard
    player would just reach up and hit one button to trigger the next
    song pattern. Worked VERY WELL in live performance. No flailing
    about with floppies, etc.
    
    KM

    My problem with the Drumulator wasn't so much the way it worked
    (which I wasn't thrilled by) as the way it sounded.  My TR707 at
    half the price sounds twice as good.  It's moot now anyway with
    the Drumulator replaced by the SP-12.
    
    Drummers are as unnecessary as bass players and guitarists given
    today's technology.  But we all know what "keyboard-only" bands
    sound (and look on stage) like.
    
    len,
    

The CZ-101 hands on demo tentatively scheduled for 1 June at my place in
Westborough has been postponed until Sunday 22 June.  Sorry for the sudden 
change of plans.

len.

    Guitarist aren't quite obsolete yet.  Now with the next generation
    of MIDI guitar synthesizers, maybe keyboardist are unneccessary...
    ;^).
    
    As for as live shows go, I think the concert going public would rather
    watch a tasty drummer sweat his balls off, on a drummer riser with
    100,000 watts of lights on him.  Who wants to watch a boring hotel
    band with two members using a sequencer and drum machine.
    
    As far as compostion and studio goes, that is a different story...
    
    Dave
    

    
    	Re;-1  How about a drum machine on a riser with 100,000 watts
    of light shining on it?
    					,km1

    re: -1 I agree, I have yet to see *anything* that comes close to the
    sound of a good guitarist. To say that any kind of muscian is obsolete
    is MIDI snobbery of the worst (self delusionary) sort.
    
    dave

    
    	I am *not* saying that guitar(ist)s are obsolete, but I
    will point out that the theme music to Miami Vice (Jan Hammar(sp?))
    does a pretty respectable imitation.
    
    	What say you guitarists?
    						,km1

    How about a MIDI-controlled drum robot?  Sort of like a vorsetzer
    for drums.  Just needs a few "aim" commands and a "hit" command.
    And just think, a robot drummer's eyes could flash in time with
    the music, and it couldn't get falling down drunk, and...

    Now all we need is a portable (inflatable?) drum roadie.
    
    len.
    

    re -1... how about Jan Hammer's Stratocaster/DX7 sound ??? Huh?
    
    seriously, I agree that drumless/guitarless 'rock' groups would
    be less than thrilling to GO SEE. Although I enjoyed the Street
    Pajama sets very much... but, you all know I'm just a studio wimp
    at heart.
    
    KM2

    re;-2
    
    	I've seen a robot drum setup.  Some guy (a one man band) called
    'Scorpio'.  Had one stick per drum/cymbal.  I think they were
    solonoid operated.  Was quite funny to look at.  He also had a 
    erector set like robot that 'danced'.
    
    	I tried talking to him (Scorpio, not the robot) and he was
    more than a trifle unfriendly and conceited.
							Karl.Malik;1

    Good grief, I think I know the guy.  Way back when, there was a
    guy who played in a rival campus (MIT) band, name of Dave(?)
    Terwilliger (the guy, not the band).  I ended up gigging with him
    one summer for a week at the Improper Bostonian (now gone?).  Yet
    another campus band (Pavement Narrows) (the band, not the campus)
    had gone their separate ways for the summer, and the lead guitarist
    (who lived in my dormitory) was looking for a pickup band to honor
    a contractual commitment.  I and the bass player from my band (The
    Second Coming) (the band, not the bass player) were on campus that
    summer (making up credits for courses we screwed up 'cause we wuz
    musicians!....) so the four of us pooled all the songs we knew and
    faked it for 6 nights.  Anyway, Terwilliger was at that time either
    already or about to go one man banding under the name (ta-da)
    Scorpio.  Is the guy you met still around anyplace?  I wonder if
    it's the same guy.  He wasn't "unfriendly and conceited" back then,
    but I already knew him, and be that as it may, people do change.
    
    All my best jokes are somebody else's reality...
    
    len.
    

    "Drummers are as unnecessary as bass players and guitarists given
    today's technology.  But we all know what "keyboard-only" bands
    sound (and look on stage) like."
    
    - Len SIVA::Fehskens

A new note to deal with this controversial topic has been started in 376.

Don.
    

    
    re: .46
    
    Take a look at the cover of this month's ( season's? ) Computer
    Music Journal.
    
    					Monty
    

    re .46	Inflatable roadies.
    
    	Well, I think I've heard of inflatable groupies, is that something
    different ?
    
    	Reg
    

    Weellll... an update... I've WITHDRAWN my deposit on the Emulator
    II+. Here's some of the high points of the last couple weeks'
    instrument search :
    
    o	NO STORE in Arizona has the new Prophet 2000/2002 in stock...
    	"well, sir, we can order it for you." aaaaaaaaarg. jerkoffs.
    o	The Prophet has 12-bit sampling, and I called some of my L.A.
    	based tech resources, and they LOVE it...
    o	The Emulator has an 8-bit processor. They claim 14-bit sampling
    	resolution by using a Delta factor, after beginning the sample
    	with 2 bytes representing the core frequency.
    o	A recent industry mag stated that E-Mu Systems announced the
    	'Emulator on a Chip'... they've reduced all that circuitry to
    	an IC. No announcement of the Emulator III, however...
    o	Roland, Yamaha, Akai (16-bit) are all expected to announce new
    	samplers at the NAMM show. My NAMM spies will inform me... I
    	think the show is two or three weeks off.
    o	KORG has announced the DSS-1, a 12-bit 5 octave sampler with
    	keyboard, 12 digital oscillators, and full ADSR controls, MIDI
    	of course.
    
    Consensus is 'don't rush in'... the sampling world is in a real
    uproar, new products being announced... at the least, the new Japanese
    machines will drive the Emulator price downward. So I have a new
    1/2 hour piano/orchestra neoconcerto to polish... it'll be nice and 
    ready when I get my new gear, whatever it is.

    Re: .53
    
    Good for you Mr. Moeller.  I was thinking about a sampler for my
    next MIDI sound module but have decided to wait as this is the area
    where the technology seems to be moving the fastest, and since I
    have no money right now and can afford to wait...  Story of my life...
    
    By the way, I love MIDI too but nothing beats the sound of a live
    electric guitar played through a ________ amp (fill in the blanks
    to suit your own musical taste) even though I heard some nice samples
    on the Kurzweil "Rock Block" demo record in this month's _Keyboard_.
    
    		Derek

    Here's what, for those of you watching with interest, KM 1's impetuous
    plunge into KX88/TX816 land inspired me. We have to pester him for
    a 'live in Yamaland' review soon.... Blown off the Emulator
    permanently. Here's why:
    
    o	cheesy 5-octave keyboard
    		unweighted. only 5 octaves.
    o	low-features sequencer
		limited track reorganization utilities
		unable to save voice changes/pitchbend/LFO 
    o	waveforms and sequencer fight for same memory bank
    - so there are some substantial compromises within the Emulator. 
    Liked the SMPTE, would like to get into video soundtrax...
    
    SO! Back to modular. Each piece here has few compromises. 
    There's V phases to this madness. Phase I is in effect, getting
    my best prices, should fork over $$ within a few days.
    
    Phase I:	KX88 88-note keyboard controller
		Roland MKS-20 rackmount digital piano
    		MIDIVerb
    Phase II:	Apple Fat Mac Opcode interface, sequencer software
		FSK Sync-to-tape (use with TEAC 3340s 4-track)
    Phase III:	Sampler. Probably the Prophet 2002. I'll wait for
                    NAMM 2 b sure.
    Phase IV:	8-track recorder. Will be bothering you all about 1/4"
    		versus 1/2" tape, noise reduction, mixing boards
    Phase V:	Stereo digital VCR with A-D front end

    re;-1
    
    	My impetuous plunge?   It was *your* impetuous plunge (ordering
    an Emulator, no less) that gave me the courage to buy the Yamaha
    stuff!
    
    	Maybe we'd better be careful; if we use each other as sanity
    checks, we might spend ourselves into the poor house.
    
    							,Karl_1

    re -1;re-1
    
    *MY* impetuous plunge in ordering an Emulator? But I CANCELLED my
    order... sucker you...

    Today, June 10, 1986, being of semisound mind, karl moeller parted
    with $3109.00 cash money for equipment to implement Phase I of his
    plans for World Domination. Phase I includes:
    
    KX88 MIDI Keyboard controller
    Alesis MIDIVerb
    Roland MKS-20 digital piano rackmount
    
                           COWER, YE MULTITUDES !
    
    p.s. it's 102f today and I just walked back from dropping my DECmobile
    off for service. forgive me. don't know what came over me. 

   	Karl, isnt there a combo keyboard that incorporates the 
    	KX-88 with the MKS-20?  WOuld that have been cheaper than	
        buying them seperately?  Do you have other reasons for 
    	wanting 'seperates'?
    
    Dan (who is supremely jealous and wishes he had $3109.00 to drop)

    re -1... Jealousy is a terrible thing. I wanted one unit that could
    do it all, but as soon as you do that, design compromises begin...
    
    Roland makes a unit with 88-note keyboard and the same insides as
    the MKS-20, called the RD-1000. The keyboard is fairly cheesy (I
    am a longtime pianist, remember), it has no pitchbend or LFO wheels,
    and can't program patch changes the way the KX88 and MKB??? from
    Roland can. So it was a bad choice as a MIDI controller... plus,
    even with the drawbacks of the keyboard, the RD1000 is MORE $$$
    than the KX88/MKS-20 separately. 
    
    And, now that I'm into rackmounts, I intend to add a good sampler,
    get a Mac with sequencer software and sync-to-tape.
    
    Iv'e decided to hang on to my TEAC 3340s for a while. I've found
    stereo dbx units from DAK industries for $59. Gonna get 3, two for
    the 4track and one for my Nakamichi mixdown cassette deck. Later,
    if/when I move to 8track, I'll keep the 4-track as a pseudo half-
    track. 
    
    For now, you can all call me 'Don Two'.
    
    don two
    

         Where can you get the DAK Industries dbx units for $59.00?
   Do they have the control connections to run automatically from the
    Teac?  Is there a store that carries these or do you order them?
    When you get them, can you let me know how they work?  I have a
    Teac 22-4 for which I would like to buy dbx units for.
    					Thanks,
    					Mike
    

    re -1. dbx units...
    
    Well, I don't understand your 'control connections to run automatically
    from the TEAC' statement. These units have stereo line ins and outs
    for receiver and tape recorder. Essentially I will be putting the
    2 stereo dbx units between my mixer and the TEAC, avoiding using
    the TEAC's mic inputs. And I'll leave it in permanent encode in/
    decode out mode... giving real clean signal.
    
    DAK Industries Inc
    8200 Remmet Ave.
    Canoga Park, CA 91304
    
    Credit card orders: 1 800 DAK-0800
    Tech info only***** 1 800 272-3200
    Other Inquiries     1 800 423-2866
    
    dbx NX-40 $59.90 order # 4285................I'm gonna do it.
    
    k moeller

    Uhh...Tascam's dbx costs about $50 a channel and does have the
    connections to the deck.  I paid $400 or so for 2 DX4Ds at Wurlitzer.
    You get 2 channels worth for $60 from DAK?
    
    I don't remember exactly what the control interlock does, but I'll
    look it up tonight and report tomorrow.   I mean, everybody REALLY
    CARES, right?
    
    len.
    

    re .-1  The control connections work like this: 
    
    On the back of the Teac 22-4 and other models, there are encoder inputs
    and outputs, and decoder inputs and outputs.  When you record you
    encode and when you playback, you decode.  The control lines
    automatically switch the dbx units from encode to decode depending what
    mode your in. 
    At least that is my understanding of it.
    Mike

    Well, the units I see advertised just sit outboard of a deck...
    encoding line signals in, and decoding line signals out. Which is
    fine with me, as the old 3340 predates noise reduction.
    
    dontwo

    Thanks for the DAK info.  Sounds like I could save $80.00 with the
    DAK.  Let me know what you think of them.
    					
    Mike

    I used to use 4 channels of outboard dbx similar to the DAK offering
    on a TEAC 2340SX (and still use 2 channels of it on my 1/4" Pioneer
    mixdown deck).  It's fine if you don't mind having to switch
    between encode/decode for record/playback.
    
    One question, though, is whether the DAK stuff is dbx type I or
    dbx type II.  I'd bet that it's type II since it's made for the
    "consumer market".  The D4x-D (or whatever) that Len mentioned is
    dbx type I (geared for the pro and semi-pro market).  I have no
    idea what the differences in performance are.  For a 3340, it probably
    doesn't make a difference.
    
    That leads to another question:  is the dbx found on cassette decks
    type I or type II?  I wasn't sure which it was so I sent my COMMUSIC
    submission tape with just DOLBY.  Does anyone know?
    
    - John -

    Re: .59 on why buy separates:
    
    Let me give one man's opinion on why he (that is, me) is considering
    buying separates vs. packaged. 
    
    Optimization of function: a keyboard controller is highly optimized
    for two things: being a keyboard and being a controller.  Being
    a keyboard means they can spend a lot of time and money optimizing
    it for touch responsiveness, etc.  Being a controller means they
    can optimize it for controlling other synths: patch switching, pitch
    bend/mod wheels, sustain pedal, etc.  I personally would rather
    play one (maybe two if I could afford it) keyboard than 5, but that
    is a matter of personal preference.
    
    Cost: each time you add a keyboard plus synth, you add more $$ that you
    spend.  By adding a rack mount module, you save a few hundred bucks
    over a synth which rolls in the keyboard.  Not much savings if you only
    have a couple of synths, but if you build a keyboard army, it adds
    up.
    
    Aesthetics (spelling?): I like the way one keyboard/one rack looks
    better than 5 keyboards on an Ultimate Support Systems stand.  I also
    like the way I can fit that set-up in my car more easily than I can 5
    keyboards in Anvil cases.  I also like running 1 MIDI cable (or so)
    from the controller to the rack better than running several audio
    and/or MIDI cables each time I set-up or tear down.  I'm into ease of
    set up in gigging situations. 
    
    Part of the reason I haven't done this yet is the high initial cost
    of a good (KX88 or MKB1000 level) keyboard controller, but it is
    my long term goal.
    
    		My $.02,
    		Derek

    
    	This didn't seem to warrant a new note, so I'll just stick it
    in here.
    
    	WARNING to people purchasing MIDI keyboard controllers and
    computer/sequencer software:
    
    	With 'normal' synthesizers connecting a MIDI sequencer is
    easy - in to out and out to in.  With a modular setup, your
    software *must* have something called 'MIDI loop thru' (or as
    Performer calls it, 'Patch thru') or you will not be able to
    hear yourself when recording.
    
    	Check this out before ordering expensive software.
    
    							- Karl_1

    re .64 - I was going to say the same thing myself, but I wondered
    why the dbx unit cared what the recorder was doing.  I take it it's
    because the encode and decode sides share some circuitry and can't
    be used simultaneously.  If that's the case, then there's a more
    important convenience you get from the interlock - namely the encode/
    decode status is determined on a track by track basis depending
    on which tracks are recording and which are not.  Having the dbx
    and recorder thinking different things about which tracks are recording
    and which are playing could result in some nice screwups.
    
    re .68 - nice summary of the issues, couldn't have put it better.
    
    re .69 - I think this corresponds to the "MIX" option that the
    Roland MSQ-100 and MSQ-700 provide.  The sequencer MIDI OUT (optionally)
    mixes the sequencer's internal data with whatever's coming in the
    MIDI IN.  WARNING - if you ever get the sequencer MIDI IN connected
    to its MIDI OUT with MIX enabled, you have FEEDBACK;  the sequencer's
    probably not designed to really merge data, so it will go bonkers.
    This has happened to me a few times; the connection's not a problem
    as long as there's no data flowing.  The sequencer IS usually designed
    to do the right thing in OVERDUB mode (playing some MIDI data while
    recording other MIDI data).  This is an issue for me because of
    my MIDI switches, which don't (can't) detect such feedback loops.
    Dumb switch settings mean bizarre behaviour.
    
    len.
     
    

    Re;70 re;69
    
    	The KX88 has a merge input so that two keyboards can be played
    at the same time.  I tried using that before I learned about 'Patch
    thru'.
    
    	It correctly merged the feedback.  Everything worked fine. 
    Until I filled up memory after playing only a page of music!
    
    							,Karl

    I believe the dbx units that dak is selling are simultanious
    encode/decode so you can monitor the deck output. These units are
    on close out because dbx is not longer manufacturing encoded disks
    and they don't want to sell the merchandise.
    
    This is dbx II which I use for my mastering deck, it give 35db of
    noise reduction, I have no idea what dbx I can accomplish.
    
    dave

    You may recall, the last conversation in this note was about DAK
    Industries' offer of the dbx model NX40 stereo noise reduction units
    for $60 each... sounds like a great deal, right? Get 2 for your
    4-track, was my fantasy.
    
    Well, my L.A. connection has investigated them and said they work
    great for cassettes, but extremely poorly for open-reel dex. Now
    I see in the June '86 Electronic Musician, a letter on page 10 from
    someone who picked up the dbx NX40...
    
    ..."there is apparently some line imbalance problems (sic) when
    connecting the dbx between the mixer and (Fostex X-15)"... isn't
    the X-15 a 4 track cassette? If so, the dbx NX40 and I will remain
    forever strangers.
    
    karl moeller

    re .73 - I think the Fostex X-15 is notorious for low output levels
    (I seem to recall an article in Electronic Musician on how to "fix"
    this level problem).  That, rather than the NX40, may be the source
    of this problem.  Just a thought.
    
    len.
    

    I'm not sure if this is the proper forum, but you guys, after all,
    *did* "help me spend my money".
    
    I received my Roland 505 from Profound Sound.  From profundity to
    profanity is my motto.  Only one problem - no MIDI THROUGH.  I had
    one MIDI THROUGH (DX7) and two MIDI termini (505 & CZ101).  What
    to do, short of buying a MIDI thru box ($70)??
    
    What I did, remembering that MIDI has a current-loop physical protocol,
    was to wire my MIDI thru to two MIDI inputs, in series, and hope
    that my DX7 could drive both.  It does.  No problems to date.
    
    What I would like is for somebody more knowledgeable than myself,
    which includes most of you, to assure me that this is a reasonable
    solution, or to warn me that my DX7 is about to suffer terminal
    meltdown. 
    
    Thanks,
    David
    

    Remember this note ?
    
    Well, not wanting to start a garbage note... I .. uh.. spent some
    more money this week.  [CONSUMERISM IN MUSIC!CONSUMERISM IN MUSIC!]
    
    I purchased a Yamaha KM08 (great name!) 8-to-2 mixer, 3 fx
    sends/stereo returns.
    
    I also purchased a very slightly used FOSTEX A8LR recorder, the
    one where you can record 8 trax simultaneously, complete with remote
    transport controls and a punch-in switch.
    
    To complete the garbage note ambience, I feel I have to share this
    with you.. I've been out all week with a fever.. finally got to
    the doc and he said, "Boy, you have 'Cat Scratch Fever'". "Right,"
    I said, thinking I didn't like it when Ted Nugent had it, and that
    I was gonna like it even less if *I* had it... Well, the doc convinced 
    me I do indeed have it.. and there's NO CURE ! "Impervious to all
    known antibiotics," he said.. and it can last up to a YEAR.. thanks, 
    Ted.

    
    the way i understood it (go ahead, correct me) cats, who spend
    a fair amount of time in kitty litter, carry (a chemical?) some
    thing from the litter around on their paws and when they scratch
    you....
    
    would immediate cleansing with alcohol or ???? help?
    
    too late for you, though, Karl....
    
    sorry....
    
    hey lets have a GET WELL KARL jam and we can charge money and
    send all the proceeds to the institute for the study and cure
    of cat scratch fever.....
    
    

    "... and there's NO CURE!"
    
    Nonsense. Mix yourself up a big glass of that powdered orange breakfast
    beverage, WANGO TANGO and slosh it down before bed...
    
    Edd