Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    "Liner notes" would be helpfull. I do all my recording on a 
     4 -->2 mixer straight to cassette, and wouldn't want the sound
     quality judged on the same standards as somebody who's cousin
     owns Longview. :^)
    
     I'll volunteer to do the editting to cassette.
    
     Edd
    

    I've been thinking on this for a while. Since I've got quite a bit
    of material recorded, 5 min. seems too limited. What about setting
    up one person as the initial recipient of all contributor's cassettes.
    Using NOTES, a list of contributors and listeners could be set up.
    A box of cassettes would be shipped to each person on the list in
    turn. And the current listener would be known, so would have to
    send the box along to the next listener within 2-3 days. Eventually
    the tapes might return to the initial recipient, who would send
    the cassettes back to the owners.
    
    A corollary topic could be set up for all listener's comments.
    
    Karl Moeller SWS Tucson

    A similar suggestion has been made in the MUSIC conference, and
    in fact tapes are now circulating informally.  I have two tapes
    (Steve Klosterman's Jamaican Vacation demo and Ed Bernstein's
    Tem Noon/Gravity sampler) - anybody interested in getting them
    next?  I am putting together my own sampler, but it will take
    a few more weeks to turn some loose ends into finished "product".
    
    I think a multi-person sampler is an interesting idea although
    finding 5 "representative" minutes might be difficult.  I'm
    currently doing three (maybe 4?) kinds of things - "classical
    covers (e.g., my "arrangement" of the 1st movement of the 6th
    Brandenburg for 6 harpsichords), pop covers (e.g., "Pipeline",
    an old 60s surf instrumental; my version is synths only, no
    guitars), originals (you wouldn't recognize them) and percussion
    originals (with a long "this is how I did it" description in
    progress).
    
    I'm a little wary of exposing my stuff to strangers, especially
    given the fangs that some of our noters periodically bare.  If
    people would agree to say "I don't care for it" instead of
    "it's garbage", I'd be less reluctant.
    
    Let's do it!
    
    len.
    

    Sounds like a decent idea.  Would also be a good way for us in the
    nether regions to get to "know" you up-northers a bit better.
    
    Don't have much to contribute yet, but am willing to work on it.
    
    Count me in!
    
8^)

    Since the next person to receive the tapes would by definition be
    listed (w/complete address) in the contributors/listeners list,
    and the LAST person to have the tapes could post who he/she sent
    them along to, it's hard for me to get paranoid about loss or ripoffs.
    All except the latest of my stuff is copyrighted, anyway. 
    
    As for the cost, it costs all of $0.71 to send a single cassette
    anywhere in the U.S. I still suggest someone there out East volunteer
    to receive the tapes, listen, box them up, send them to the next
    on the list. We'll all share in the shipping cost, as we'll need
    to send the box of cassettes along to the next listenee.
    
    Karl Moeller Tucson

    I'me not sure what the implications are but I really would like
    to be included. I have enough material (mostly songs) and it is
    all original material so no copywright problems. I think we
    broached the subject in an earlier note and it eventually got
    no response. I hope my involvement from the U.K. does not destroy
    the whole idea, if so then just count me out (but i would really 
    like to be counted in and would be prepared to fund the extra costs).
    
    

    I think copyright's only a problem if money's involved.  I don't
    think swapping tapes for noncommercial reasons breaks any
    laws or violates any moral principles.  I mean, why should I pay
    a royalty to somebody because I gave/loaned a copy of a cover of
    their song to a friend?  Aren't we getting a little paranoid about
    this?
    
    len.
    

    If I buy the sheet music to a piece, doesn't that give me some right
    to 'perform' it?
    
    Edd

    re#10 - I disagree, Tom. Leaving the mailing of tapes to & from
    individuals is exactly what's (not) been happening already.
    
    let's be organized : One topic for full names and addresses of:

    a) the first mailee - waits 1 week, then sends ONE BOX containing
       ALL the cassettes to the next listenee.
    b) all listenees (may include contributors, of course)
       -With FULL HOME mailing address
    
    And a second topic, the LATEST REPLY containing the name/address
    of the person in CURRENT POSESSION of the box of tapes
    
    And a THIRD topic, containing all listener's comments !
    
    Regarding tape loss, copyrights, etc.: Since I compose all my own
    material, I just don't want it to appear as someone else's - either
    the taped performance of mine or recreated by someone else. If you
    do covers, since this is a noncommercial venue, no problem. About
    tape loss: big deal! How much do cassettes cost?
    
    Karl Moeller
        

    The problem with copyright is that the composer may not want to
    consider the work published simply because it went out to a few
    people on a cassette.  To do so, I would suggest putting something
    like "(c) Copyright 1986, <name>, All Rights Reserved, an unpulished
    work" on the tape to protect the ability to REALLY publish and copyright
    the work later.  And yes, distributing to more than one's immediate
    circle of friends can be considered publishing (at least according
    to this book I read on copyright stuff).
    
    -jim

    Count me in...I have a few songs to offer, there will be more after
    I complete my studio construction this fall.
    
    RE: the usenet compiliation: It is my understanding from Greg that
    the tape will be completed soon (soon=??) I recently sent him some
    of my material to be used if there was room. 
    
    I look forward to hearing the works of all you "noters"....
    
    
    dave

    re -1:
    
    Well, Dave, at this rate it looks like you may wait awhile. Everyone
    contributing here has their own ideas (including me) on how the
    music could be circulated, yet NO ONE has stepped up and said, 'send
    the tapes to me and I'll get the ball rolling'.
    
    I disagree with the need to redub noter's music onto a compilation
    cassette...taking that guy in USENET a while, isn't it?
    
    I'll certainly volunteer to collect, listen, box and send along
    all tapes submitted, ONLY if noters agree to use TOPICS creatively
    as I suggested in two previous notes. This method avoids confusion
    as to who receives the tapes next, as well as identifying who has
    them now.
    
    This is real exciting, I for one WOULD like to hear other noter's
    music. Let's get this off the ground ! 
    
    Karl Moeller

    OK, so where do I/we send our contributions?
    
    Another suggestion.... start 2 new notes. The first one to be replied
    to by the authors. This could function as the 'liner notes' I mentioned
    earlier. Recording tecniques, instruments and other info would be
    posted and not as likely to get lost as a paper data sheet travelling
    with the tape(s). After the tape is edited, the person who did the
    editing (Karl?) could list the playing order of the final tape,
    so we'd all know what was who's.
    
    And of course the second note... the critique. I certainly trust
    we'll all be on our best behaviour... Duets for tabla and piccollo
    are not my favorite, but I won't tell you it sucks for that reason.
    Real constructive criticism is what we want, right?
    
    Edd
    

    How about this:
    
    One note entry for:
    
    LIST OF RECIPIENT ADDRESSES - I'll start it. If you want to be on
    the list enter your name. You get the tapes in the order of the
    list. Since I'm going to start this list you can start by 
    sending your tapes to me first. I'll keep them for seven days and
    send them along to the next name.
    
    CURRENT HOLDER NOTE - When you get the tapes (I guess compilation
    is out) you write in and say you got them and when you're ready
    to send then say you've sent them to then next person on the list.
    
    LINER NOTE (ONE FOR EACH ENTRY) - 	When you send your tape in you
    enter a liner note and all replies/comments to your composition 
    go into this note as replies.
    
    Dennis

    GOOD ! Now, a personal question:
    
    I've issued two complete (hour-long) albums and have enough material
    taped for a third. Several different idioms.
    
    What is the (time) limit? Do you suggest we hold it down to one
    piece, or can I send one of my albums, or should I do my favorites
    anthology of no more than 5 pieces? what?
    
    How about some suggestions? (no, THAT's anatomically implausible)
    
    Karl Moeller
    

    Two suggestions from your moderator:
    
    1)	Please make the LINER NOTES a single topic in order to keep
    	the directory manageable.
    
    2)	Please delete yourself as the current recipient when you
    	send the tape(s) to someone else.  Algorithms which grow
    	without bound should be avoided.
    
    -jim

    Let's not let the conglomeration issue die.
    
    Maybe no one else is willing to put together a "sample tape", but I am.
    I'm not into spending megabucks to ship 10 or 12 tapes around the globe
    at a shot.  One cassette containing multiple works is one thing - many
    cassettes containing a few is another. 

    If you're looking for someone with a couple of tape decks to "build"
    the "master tape", I'll volunteer.  A person is designated as the
    conglomerator (?).  For now, let's assume that's me.  Here's a
    suggested tack: 
    
 	o  Prepare 1-3 tunes to a cassette.  You can mix down yourself.

	o  Label each song, include text similar to what Dennis listed
 	   in note 313.  Send that to me via VAXmail.

 	o  Send me the cassette (either to DYO or to address listed
 	   in note 311) and I'll start making a master tape.  I'll donate
 	   the master (probably either TDK-SA or UDXL-II).
    
 	   BTW - I'll be using a Yamaha k-960 and TEAC decks to make
	   the masters.
    
    	o  After your recording is mastered, it will be returned; or,
 	   if you wish, you can donate it for subsequent master tapes.

    There still arises the issue of who pays the postage.  It seems the
    most fair to let the submitter pick up the cost of postage, but what
    about tape return?  How would that be handled?  I guess if I'm gonna do
    the mastering, I could be grudingly persuaded to cover the cost of
    return-mailing the tapes as well.
    
    What's DEC's position on sending things like tapes thru interoffice
    mail?

8^)

 
    Here's another note for "The Best of Commusic". I certainly don't
    have enough material to warrant a full tape. (1 tune). 
    
    An anthology type tape would give us all a sampling of what we're
    doing AND keep postage down. You can always make arrangements to
    hear more later.
    
    Looks like all we have to do is settle this point and it happens!
    
    Edd

    I say we go with the conglomerate and keep it down to one song each
    and send 'em all to Brad Schafre and get this thing on the road.
    I say we also abide by Ravan's guidelines. I'll change my Mouse
    and Cats title to be TAPE ONE ENTRIES.
    
    Dennis

Re: .22
    
    Rather than each of us post our stuff in the conference, why not just
    send me VAXmail (or something) and let me assimilate and post?
    
    I'll collect, sort, and spell check 8^) each one.  I think it would be
    easier to see what's where with what who and how (?!) if the responses
    in the conference align with the order of tunes on the tape. 
    
    That way, each of us can extract and print the "TAPE nnn" note, and
    have our own personal copy of the "credit sheet". 
    
    This method will also eliminate "oh, yeah, i forgot that..." responses
    and keep things cleaner for our illustrious moderator.  ;-) 

    And, again, what are DEC's policies on using interoffice mail?  I don't
    know 'em. 
    
8^)

    
    re: -1
    
    You can take the chance of sending tapes through the interoffice
    mail, but it is generally frowned upon by Corporate Mail.  Also,
    DEC isn't responsible for the loss or damage to personal mail.
    After seeing mailroom procedures for almost five years, I don't
    think I'd want to take the chance with my tapes.
    
    Ralph (VRO5 Office Services)

    If/when you mail me a tape, PLEASE make sure that it's in a format
    that I can deal with.  I need:
    
    	o  A cassette tape, preferrably decent quality (no sandpaper
	   on a roll, please)
    
    	o  Noise reduction: none, Dolby B or dbx.  NO DOLBY C!!!
    
    	o  Master tape(s) will be on Maxell UDS-II C90 cassette(s) with
	   Dolby B type noise reduction.
    
    In mail sent to me, please list at least:
    
    	o  Date of recording (if known)
    
    	o  Equipment used to produce tune(s).  Include recording info,
	   synths, guitars, amps, effects, personnel, etc

	o  Name of tune(s) (again, if named)

    	o  How much you'll pay me not to pirate it  8^)  8^)  8^)

    That's it.
    
8^)

    
    	Just a point of order for you folks - not everyone does 'tunes'.
    
    	The '2 or 3 tunes' limit will not be especially helpful if
    someone does 20 minute pieces.
    
    	You will probably have to impose some kind of total time limit
    if you wish to keep the number of tapes to a minimum.
    
    							- Karl

    re -1. Time limits... tape recopying... whyncha make it tough ?
    
    I'll be glad to contribute, but I think it's a shame that only 6
    people @15 minutes each will be able to be on this compilation tape.
    BTW, sending a small box of tapes thru the mail is no more than
    $2.00 any where in the U.S. Are we underpaid or what ?
    
    What if you get more than 90 minutes of music ? You ARE going to
    do a 90 minute tape, right, Brad?
    
    Karl Moeller

    I'm not restricting the master to one tape.  It may be a set of
    tapes, for all I know.
    
    Besides, if submissions are too many to fit on a C90, I can always
    create a "half speed master".  8^)   8^)   8^)
    
    For a trial run, I see no problem with 1 or 2 songs a piece, and
    a limit of 10-15 minutes per tune.  Perhaps on future efforts we
    can do some more elaborate stuff.
    
    In the meantime, let's start small and work up.
    
8^)

    I agree with Brad's idea and feel we still need a reply that represents
    the final method of exchange.  I feel the best thing here would
    be for Brad to enter one final reply, explaining the entire system
    as a final first attempt at a COMMUSIC exchange.  If this doesn't
    seem to work good enough, then we can revisit our exchange method.
    
    As far as the copyright stuff, I have entered a seperate note that I hope
    will clear all of the uncertainties up. 

    Todd Rhodes.
    

    
    
    Can't help but agree with .-1 I am now (as usual) a little confused.
    
    Before I put my name on the address list does anyone object or have
    any reasons for me (in the U.K) not being included.
    
    				Paul.

    Same here. Any objections? 	
    Mailing costs might end up even a little higher here than to the
    UK, but like Kent I am also willing to pay the extra. I'm just
    wondering, if people can accept the longer wait even if I would	
    act as fast as possible (1-2 days instead of 1 week). Some opinions,
    please!
    
    Timo Lehtinen
    Helsinki, Finland

    re: decmail system: We recently ran into a similar problem on
    EKLV00::FLYFISH.....as near as we can tell there is no specific
    rules or regulations pertaining to dec interoffice mail, however,
    since this is not defined it can be interperted locally, and possibly
    could be considered "theft, or fraudulent use of company assetts"
    
    But one particiapnt on flyfish from AYR has influenced the policy
    in his plant such that they do not object to his forwarding magazines
    via the mail system.
    
    Not much of a real answer is it??
    
    dave

    Re: the people from Europe, etc. who want to be involved.

    I don't mind sending the tape overseas.  I'd welcome a view of my 
    music from anyone, especially people with different cultures,
    backgrounds, etc. 

    Having read the lengthy note on copyright, however, I would ask that 
    the tape and the box the tape is in contain any copyright notices that
    are necessary.  (This could call for some microscopic writing!)  That
    way, we can all feel somewhat safe that we are least trying to deal
    with it correctly.

    Brad: Is it OK if we send you a note with our tapes explaining what 
    notice we'd like you to put on?  That puts the responsibility on us to 
    tell you what notice we'd each like to see.

    - John -

    P.S.  Is there a deadline by which Brad should have received the 
          tapes?  I'm hoping to send mine out Saturday or Monday.  Is that
    	  too late? 

    Re.-1
    
    Thanks for the support John it was beginning to feel quite lonely
    out here. I would be happy to abide by your copywright rules. 
    
    RE the Deadline I will be producing a tape this weekend and will
    mail it to Brad Monday so he should receive it by Friday I guess.
    
    I am a little unclear at the moment whether we are talking 5 minutes
    worth or just one piece. If it was 5 minutes I could probably fit
    2 songs into this time.                            
    
    I am looking forward to hearing you all.
    
    					Paul.

    uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......... I may have jumped the gun on this but it
    certainly isn't the first time! I have already mailed a TDK SA-90
    off to Brad with 15 minutes' material on it... one piece 10:30 long,
    and a second piece 4:30 long. The reason is that '15 minutes' was
    bandied about about 10 replies back... it won't cost that much more
    to send two 90 minute compilation tapes around, will it? It was
    rough for me to even pare my stuff down to 15 minutes...
    
    Didn't I see, either here or in MUSIC, some comment on cassettes
    mysteriously disappearing while going thru Customs in Britain...
    
    karl Moeller
    Tucson AZ

Re: "Foreigners"  8^)
    
    Sure, send 'em in.  I will echo the sentiment - will be good to get
    non-American influenced stuff.
    
Re: Deadline
    
    Let's try and get the tapes to me by, say, the end of the month? That's
    30-April.  That oughta give everyone enough time to get things
    together, and will give me a chance to see my wife more than once
    during that period of time.  8^)

    Restate - DEADLINE IS APRIL 30th (unless someone screams)
    
Re: Mailing
    
    Did we ever decide what to do with the tapes you all are sending me? Am
    I supposed to mail these back to you?  Save 'em for the "next round"?
    Did I agree to send back 50 tapes at a buck a crack?
    
    What do you think should be done with all the input tapes??

Re: Tune length
    
    Let's try and limit it (again!) to around 10-15 minutes.  That a LIMIT,
    mind you - not a requirement.  I personally will probably only throw on
    one 5 minute tune this time around.  Karl - your stuff is fine the way
    it is.  If we need a "double album set", so be it.  ;-)  That's life. 
    
    Look at it this way - if I get 12 15 minute submissions (which is NOT
    an unrealisitic estimate), that will waste 2 C90s.

Re: General 
    
    Once we get some rules hardcoded, they should be written down in
    a clear concise one-note form.

    I think that's everything.
    
8^)

    You can keep my tape for your effort...
    
    Edd

    If you want your submission tape back just enclose $1 for Brad.
    Otherwise don't expect to get it back. No reason he should pay for
    returning them.
    
    Please do me a personal favor and keep it down to no more than 10
    minutes for each author. That's more than enough to listen to for
    anyone. If this goes right it'll be just the first of many tapes
    to go around.
    
    Dennis Savage

    Right.  If you want your tape back, I suggest enclosing some stamps
    to cover the return postage (wrapped in wax paper?).  Otherwise,
    write the tape off as a donation to the Brad Schafer fund  ;-)
    
    Todd Rhodes.
    

    Brad 
    
    I have mailed my tape to you using the address in 311.2 I have just
    tagged "U.S.A." to the bottom of the address I hope this will get
    to you. I am assuming that OH is OHIO is this correct ?
    
    			PK.

    I surely am pleased to see this getting off the ground. It will
    be interesting to hear other noter's material. Making this all a
    bit more real, if you know what I mean.
    
    There is a point (or two) that I'm not clear on. Now, as the
    compilation tape is being assembled (compiled/linked...), 'liner
    notes' need to be posted. I thought I saw a request from Brad that
    we DECmail our liner notes to him; he'd EDT and submit them as a
    new topic. However, the existence of topic 313 seems to prove me
    wrong.
    
    Also, when the tape starts circulating, we'll want to (gently?)
    comment/review the contributions. Are these reviews gonna be replied
    into another topic, or is THAT what Brad is looking for thru DECmail?
    
    Karl Moeller
    

Re: .40
    
    That'll get to me, PK.  Thanks.

Re: .41
    
    What I was hoping for is that 313 would end up getting VAXmailed
    (please, please, NO DECmail!!!!!) to me - viz a viz DYO780::SCHAFER.
    
    I thought that I would compile the "liner notes" (as Karl suggested)
    and then submit a new note regarding that particular master tape.
    
    If you all would rather just reply to 313, I guess that's ok by me.
    Makes a lot less work, but it may not be as easy to figger out what
    belongs to who, much less you're listening to at any one time.
    
8^) 

    I apologize if this was covered elsewhere but:
    
    What are the guidelines for musical content?  Does it have to be
    works performed solely by me or is music recorded by my band fair
    game?  I would be willing to contribute both eventually but the
    band stuff is already recorded.
    
    		Thanks for your input,
    		Derek

Re: .43
    
    Sure, Derek.  Just tell us who is you, so we know who to flame on.
    
8^)  8^)  8^)

    Thanks Brad.  Now I'll have to drag out my recordings quickly if
    I hope to make the April 30th deadline!!
    
    		Derek