Conference napalm::commusic_v1

I have a Toa RXA-216 powered mixer.  It's 16 channels with 4 120 watt
amps built into.  I have been told that Toa's gear leaves something to be
desired with respect to slewing rate, but I don't hear any evidence of this.

Stay away from guitar and bass amps.  They have bizarre frequency responses
that will color the sound of a synth.  You want a full range, flat system.

Powered mixers are convenient but essentially non-portable. 

len.

Re: .1

About how much does one of these run?  And what are you driving with the TOA?

I'm familiar enough with this stuff that I know not to use guitar/bass amps 
(I've been at this for about 10 years  8^).  

I'm trying to decide whether I should try and run this stuff through a 
"normal" PA setup or if I should think about a seperate unit (or at least 
board) through which to mix my stuff.


Brad

The Toa's driving two Fender PA monitors.  They have very flat frequency
response and are more than adequate in my apartment-based studio (i.e., I
can't drive them loud enough to distort before my neighbors complain).
I don't remember the model number, but they're not the biggest or the
smallest monitors Fender offers.  I got the board and monitors at EUWurlitzer
as a package, over a year ago.  I think the package was about $1900.

I'm not prepared to discuss at length the powered board vs separate board
and power amps issue, and I don't think it ultimately makes much difference.
I do strongly recommend that if you have more than a few sound sources
(synths, drum machines, guitars/amps) that you get a board.  The EQ, effects
routing, and level control make things a great deal easier and more flexible.
If you plan to do any multitrack recording (even just stereo) a board is
a real asset.  All you need is $.

len.

    I'd like to reopen this topic with a question.
    
    I'm beginning to look for a new amp system for my keyboards. Initially
    I'd like to stay under $500 but would like to be able to upgrade
    eventually.
    
    My immediate needs are for something suitable for light practicing,
    and something (else?) for gigging. If I can get one amp to do it
    all so much the better. I want a good flat response and plenty of
    power. Reliability is also of major concern.
    
    Eventually I'd like to have a full stereo rig with monitors on my
    keyboard stand, mixer etc...
    
    Can anyone offer their opinions/recommendations on what route to
    take? I don't want to keep buying and selling amps every year. I
    do want to buy something that will meet my immediate needs and still
    leave the door open for the future.
    
    FWIW I now have a fairly old ('72) Kustom 250 Bass amp (2-15" speakers
    in a ported, wheeled cabinet) plus a seperate Kustom horn that I
    put in series.
    
    				Thanks,
    				Mark
    

    For home use I use my Peavy board with built in amps.
    
    For gigs, I used my circa ~73 Ampeg B25-B amp (55W, 2X15"). It was
    less than ideal but frankly, I didn't care too much about my stage
    sound.
    
    Given my druthers, I'd like a (yet unavailable) mixer/headphone
    amp. This vaporware would allow me to input the synths (say 8 ins
    for conversation's sake) and give me a choice of 8, 2, or 1 send
    to the snake. Mixing would be pre or post send, allowing me to either
    mix the send to the board myself or (if enough snake channels were
    available) let the soundman do it. I'd wear headphones and the board
    could fold a monitor send back to the stage.
    
    Dreams...
    
    
    Edd

  Hmm.

	I have four different amplification techniques, depending on what I'm
	doing. 

	In the studio, I use the equivalent of a stereo, i.e. a Carver amp 
	and TOA speakers, driven from the M-160. Volume levels are usually
	low, not that I would blow the TOAs ;^)

	For band rehearsals (in the recording side as opposed to the control
	room side), I pipe through the PA (in this case a Crown DC-300 and a
	pair of PAS full-range monitors, driven by a Rane 12-channel monitor
	mixer). I don't use as many SGUs when playing in a band; however
	I submix whatever boards I'm playing to my Boss BX 6-channel mixer,
	and just feed the output of that to a line level on the PA.

	For band gigs, I just send to the PA. I have a pair of direct boxes
	which get me to the snake. I use the Boss mixer in those cases,
	unless the soundperson can accomodate more channels (which is rare),
	so I submix.

	For the *other* band (the MIDI duo), there's more SGU stuff on stage,
	so I bring along the M-160 in it's rack, but that's the only difference.

	For solo work (wedding ceremonies, Christmas parties, etc), I usually
	just bring one board (the EPS) and my Roland Keyboard Cube-60. For
	me, low volume applications are fine and the Cube can take bashing
	around in the trunk of a car better than the TOAs. 

	The point of this dissertation is that, depending on the application,
	some methods are much easier than others. I stopped lugging large
	speakers around about five years ago, in favor of the higher-fidelity
	"let-the-soundperson-do-the-mix" approach. But for solo work, it makes
	no sense to take a large-to-medium PA for a 30-person room. In the
	studio, the best sound is from the studio monitors. 

	So what equipment and investment is involved?

	In the studio, the Carver and TOAs ran about $1K, used. However
	it's the studio monitor system and gets a lot of use.

	In the practice room side, the PA/monitor system was about $1.5K.
	But I don't own it or maintain it, someone else does.

	For large gigs, I don't bring an amp, period. You always end up paying
	for mixing, the extra channel or two for keyboards is negligible.
	Investment: $75 for two direct boxes, and $20 for two cables. Optional
	equipment would be a small mixer, $150.

	I think the going rate for a Keyboard Cube is about $200-$375. Mine
	is about five years old, still runs great, it's relatively light,
	it delivers a lot of sound for a small box, and it has an external
	speaker jack in case you want to spread your sound a bit further.

	This is only my opinion, but I think that keyboard players' needs
	for amps are totally opposite from guitar players' needs. A guitar
	amp introduces distortion, which is good for guitars, but is terrible
	for keyboards. The higher your fidelity, the better you sound, as 
	a keyboard player. I know, there are exceptions, like those folks who
	still play with Wurly 200As and B-3s, but my sampler sounds terrible
	through a Marshall stack. It's also easier to let someone else do the
	mixing, if at all possible. I'd rather concentrate on playing and
	making the stage act look good.

	/pjh 

    I send my synths thru my porta-studio mixer directly into my home
    sterio amp. This gives me some idea what the mix should sound like if
    I plan to record. Headphones lie to you! For performance, I substitute
    a P.A. Amplifier for the home sterio (The old Shure Vocal Master has a
    switch on each input or MICROPHONE or INSTRUMENT, I set this to
    MICROPHONE), and tweek the porta-studio's mixer equalization
    appropriately (usually adding quite a bit of Bass & a touch of treble).

    The synth gear (CZ-101, MT-32, TR-505 & ESQ-1) sound like trash thru my
    Twin Reverb when I have the Altec 12's connected. It sounds fair with
    my PA cabinets (15's, Exponential Horn & Piezo tweeters). The same PA
    speakers sound great thru the PA amplifier.

							    Jens

    Gee.  I tend to use two sets of phones for recording.  I use my
    <mumble,mumble> Radio Shack phones (now on sale for $20, by the
    way) which have 20-20K bandwidth.  And, I have my old Radio Shack
    Pro-1 set.  The Pro-1 tends to be cut the high frequencies and is,
    I think, flatter bandwidth.  Anyway, the Pro-1 set sounds to me
    a lot more like what the speakers sound like, but I don't like wearing
    them very long (they are heavy, sweatty and muffle outside sounds).
    When I think it all sounds good, I do a sound check on the speakers
    (when I won't disturb the wife and kids).  Then, I do a sound check
    in the car on the way to and from work.
    
    Steve

    I run the stereo output of the Yamaha MT2X to an AUDIONICS CC-2
    power amp.  This is a real smooth 70 watt system I used to run my
    main stereo speakers through, but when I got B&W 802's...well that
    was the end of that idea.  The CC-2 now pushes a pair of Yamaha
    NS-20M's which is a pretty nice 3-way step-up from the popular NS-10
    monitor.  About the only thing this system lacks is the bottom octave
    and a half which the K5/D110 is capable of pushing out. (This is
    always a pleasant surprise when I listen to a tape downstairs on
    the "real" stereo.)
    
    My brother gave me a pair of Sony MDR-V6(?) headphones for X-mas.
    I have not listened to anything seriously through headphones since
    college days (I am not including those little jobs you get with
    Walkpeople).  I think they sound really great!  They even have good
    bass, although I must admit that the overall sound balance IS different
    from what you hear in a regular (loudspeaker'd) system.
    
    Clusters,
    Bill Allen @MPO

    I used to use headphones for recording individual tracks, but I
    *ALWAYS* use my stereo system and speakers to bounce and master, and
    OFTEN use it for recording individual tracks where my intuition tells
    me that I need to EQ it BEFORE recording.
    
    My experience leads me to state one (probably obvious) rule of
    recording which is don't use headphones to do EQ or mixing.
    
    I would also strongly recommend NOT using headphones to set up
    mic'ed tracks.
    
    In fact, I'm going to a fairly deal of trouble to set up an
    acoustically isolated "control room" where I can monitor things
    without "leakage" from the actual source.
    
    I'm running cable between my basement/family room (where I record) and
    my living room which is where my stereo system is.  The living room is
    fairly well acoustically isolated from the family room.
    
    	db

    My set-up for liver purposes goes something like this:
    
    All SGUs plug into Yamaha MV802 8x2 rack mount mixer.  Unbalanced
    output goes to Shure electronic x-over for bi-amping, to ASR stereo amp
    (125 W/channel: one side drives bass, other drives horn) to a cabinet
    with a single 15" driver and a horn.  Balanced output goes to PA.
    
    This set-up is excellent for both on-stage monitoring (stage volume in
    the clubs we play can get very loud) and would work well in a solo
    situation as well.  Disadvantages: size and weight.  My cabinet weighs
    about 40 lbs and my rack (which includes all SGUs, effects, and amp)
    has got to be pushing 100 lbs.  C'est la vie.  It works well and sounds
    very good.
    
    Haven't done any recording lately but would probably take output of
    MV802 in stereo to ASR amp then to JBL L100 Centuries which I use for
    my home stereo.
    
    		Derek

    A quick and hearty thanks to those that have contributed so far.
    This is very helpful.
    
    Can anyone offer advice on those little monitor speakers designed
    to be bought in pairs and mounted on the keyboard stand. They seem
    small, light, easy to move. They seem to offer something good for
    light practice sessions as well as being useful as monitors in a
    stage situation. What are the tradeoffs? Bass response? Will I have
    to get a mixer to make them worthwhile? What are good brands, models,
    prices?
    
    					Thanks,
    					Mark

    For practice and screwin' around (and for stage/mixboard monitors)
    I use a pair of the Bose Roommates mounted on the Bose extension
    clamp arms, clamped to the back of my Ultimate 3-tier.  The Bose
    arms are (IMHO) the best mounting arms around, at any cost.
    
    The only thing I don't like about the Bose is they tend to sound
    a little shrill on-axis.  Aiming them at the ceiling or a wall takes
    the shrill out and gives a decently flat sound.
    
    For a mixer, I use a 4-in CQM, and I monitor on an old DuMont oscilloscope.
    The CQM mixer plans are somewhere in this conference...  check the
    directory for exact location.                              
    
                              
    	-Bill

	I bought one of those little TOA monitors, used, for $50. It screws onto
the top of a mike stand, and is driven from either the monitor system or my
keyboard cube, depending on the situation. When needed, it is very nice. I
haven't really used it a lot, but when I have it has been great. Especially
for large keyboard setups that preclude or obscure floor monitors (like mine).

	Once again, I am biased towards monitor-driven systems, i.e. I send
my outputs to the snake and let the engineer figure out the signal paths to
the audience and the stage. The TOA face-level monitor I have is great for that,
since it also has a pad within arm's reach that allows you to shut it down if
something annoying (like SCREEECCCCHH) starts coming out of it.

	Whatever. They can be found used, for less money than I thought
imaginable for a piece of bomb-proof equipment.

/pjh

    Recommendations please...
    
    I am now loooking for a decent amp for my synths. I feel that I
    need a 100w amp with a 15" speaker, horn, as a minimum (reverb highly
    desireable.) I have not looked at the Roland Cube amps, mainly because
    I can't find anyone selling them, seems they are over priced. I
    am also considering the Peavey KB300 or the TOA KB2. Any advice??
    
    	I checked out the Peavy at Union Music in Worcester but wasn't
    impressed. Then I went up to Daddy's in Salem. They had one that
    seemed to be a newer model and was equipped with Black Widow speakers.
    I was impressed. Can anyone say more about BW speakers. I frequently
    hear them mentioned with some good deal of respect. Why? Also does
    anyone know about the differences between the old and new Peavey
    KB300s? The one at Union has an overload indicator, Scorpion speakers,
    and the knobs were round with ridges for grip. The one at Daddy's
    did not have the overload indicator. Its knobs had no ridges but
    the sides were flattened for better grip. I think that the Daddys
    KB300 was a newer version, does anyone know? Both had pretty much
    the same features but the amp at Union was *very* noisy when I boosted
    the high end eq fully.
    
    	I havent listened to the TOA KB2 yet as I've only seen one in
    a pamphlet that I couldn't even keep. TOA seems to have favorable
    reviews in this notesfile. The KB2 seems to offer a good range of
    features that I need.
    
    	Prices:
    		TOA "around $500"
    		KB300 at Union $399.95 on sale this week
    		newer? KB300 at Daddys (incl BW speakers) $575 list
    						approx $435 after haggle
    

    Oh, BTW I am looking for used as well... but I really did like the
    difference that Black Widows seemed to make....    

        				Thanks in advance for advice
    					Mark
    

    Last summer I had the opportunity to use a Crate system - it was
    basically a 6 channel head and two driver cabinets (a 12 and a horn, I
    think). 

    I wish I could remember the model numbers.  The amp was pretty clean
    (for live work, anyway) and the cabinets, although very light, produced
    a real crisp sound.  Sorry I can't give you more info. 

-b

    Re: .15
    
    The KB-300 is a decent amp, though as you noticed, it can get hissy
    if you give it too much high boost.  The spring reverb is passable.
    I have used one for bass (not bad) and my drummer used the same
    one for electronic drums (HR-16 played from the pads) and it sounded
    good with that also.
    
    As long as you don't need incredible volume it should be OK.  
    
    The overload light signals that the internal power amp compression
    (used to limit distortion) is working.  You can't bypass it so the
    light is just a hint that maybe you're pushing too hard.
    
    BW speakers are more rugged and take more power than the Scorpions.
    I think they sound better, you seem to as well.  $100 is about what
    you should have to pay extra for the BW instead of the Scorpion.
    

    
    Re: .15,.17
    
    Forgot to add...
    
    The one with the "flat" knobs is indeed  newer.  Peavey constantly
    upgrades their stuff and that is their new cosmetic look.. It doubtless
    has some electronic upgrades as well.
    
    One thing about Union, they will back it with a lifetime loaner
    policy if it needs fixing, a major issue if you are gigging regularly.
    
    

	I used to play with a Galien Kruger 1000SB biamped to a box with a
	15" BW and an EV midrange horn. I popped a dime-size hole in the
	dome of the woofer, but the speaker kept playing.

	My experience with BW speakers is that they are good workhorses. You
	can get better speakers but at a much higher cost. I can't say as much
	for Peavey amps (especially combo amps), and I have owned at least
	four of them in the last ten years. 

	For keyboards, if you can afford it, get a component system, i.e.
	something rackmounted like a Crown, Carver, etc.  and one or two
	full range speaker cabinets (either homebuilt or bought). Remember
	the dynamic and frequency range of the common synthesizer, which is
	something like 10Hz-22Khz.

	/pjh

    re: last few
    
    	Thanks for the input.
    
    re: .19
    
    	Yes I'd love to go component and *full Stereo* unfortunately
    the budget says I have to stay under $500. I will be doing a fair
    amount of gigging as summer rolls in. I am looking for something
    reasonably portable - sizewise. I will have to cram all my gear into
    the back of my Celica hatchback! 
    
    	My initial impressions of a component rig are that I would need:
    	
    		* line mixer (min 8 channels)
    		* power amp (stereo?)
    		* 1 or 2 speaker enclosures (w/15" spkrs and tweeters)

    	even buying used I would expect to lighten my wallet by $1000
    or more.
    
    						regards,
    						Mark

    re: .20
    
    Stereo is a wonderful thing with a keyboard (that is, if your keyboard
    is stereophonic. I used to play my D-50 through a Roland Keyboard
    Cube but now I play through a Yamaha integrated mixer/amp and EV
    S-200 speakers. There's a big difference. Partly because of the
    speakers, but mainly because of the stereo effects.
    
    If you can get a stereo system for a reasonable price, go for it.
    
    Eerik

    Does your stage signal eventually go to the board and out the mains?
    If so, is the house sound stereo? (Most aren't. It's a nightmare...)
    If it's mono, remember that all your nice stereo is gonna happen
    just on stage...
    
    Edd

            <<< DNEAST::SYS$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COMMUSIC.NOTE;2 >>>
             -< * * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * * >-
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Note 2501.0             Keyboard Amps, which way to turn?              2 replies
CSS::KMCQUADE "Future = 1x4x9"                       37 lines  26-NOV-1990 16:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	I've been kicking around the idea of getting a keyboard amp but am
    a little confused from what little information I have been able to
    round up.
    
    	I would appreciate it if some of you more knowledgeable people out
    there would pass a few comments this way to help head me in the right
    direction.
    
    	Some of the questions I have are:
    
    	Power:	How much Wattage is enough?  And how do you really figure
    		that out?
    
    	Speakers:  I see 10", 12", 15" some of which in the smaller size
    		   are double coned(why, what is the advantage of this, or
    		   what are they compensating for?).  And some of the
    		   bigger ones with horns(which I would assume you'ld want
    		   with a keyboard).  But which combination makes the most
    		   sense?
    
    	Mixer:	Most of what I've seen are 4 channel mixers incorporated
    		into the amp.  TOA has a unit(KD-3) that has a 4 channel
    		stereo mixer.  What should I look for in the Mixer section,
    		i.e., inputs, effects, outputs?  And is stereo really
    		needed?
    
    	Reverb:	The TOA unit I mentioned above has reverb.  Is it worth it
    		to get this in the amp or is it better to get a seperate unit
    		and send it thru the effects loop before or after the mix?
    
    	If anyone would care to share their thoughts and a short description of
    their equipment and what prompted them to buy, it would be greatly
    appreciated.
    
    
    Kevin	

            <<< DNEAST::SYS$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COMMUSIC.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 2501.1             Keyboard Amps, which way to turn?                 1 of 2
KEYS::MOELLER "Born To Be Riled"                     13 lines  26-NOV-1990 16:35
                               -< clean stereo! >-
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    I'm sure you realize that cone speakers alone won't do it, because of
    the highs and lows that today's keyboards emit.  I have a bent toward
    stereo.. but not in one cabinet ala' certain Roland amps.  Most synths
    and samplers can give some wonderful stereo sound, sounding bigger
    without being louder.  So a two-cabinet stereo setup including tweeters
    would be my goal.
    
    In the few times I've dismantled my studio setup to play out, it's
    worked well - a 75 wpch Marantz power amp pushing custom Dynaudio
    speakers.  Used all my (stereo) FX units from a Yamaha KM802 keyboard
    mixer.
    
    karl

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Note 2501.2             Keyboard Amps, which way to turn?                 2 of 2
IGETIT::BROWNM "Boing Ping Boom Tchsak Ping"         10 lines  27-NOV-1990 07:46
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    I've seen a small amp/stereo monitor by Roland at only 79 pounds.
    I Don't what the model number is, but it's white and it's supposed to
    fit under the computer's monitor.  Speakers are about 3" dia.
    
    Question is, for composing purposes only, would this sort of thing be
    good enough, or is a decent sized output necessary so you can monitor
    your material in context of future live reproduction?
    
    
    matty

    Notes> DIRECTORY/KEYWORD=AMPLIFIER yielded the following notes that
    should prove helpfull.
    
    I encourage all noters to familiarize themselves with the use of
    keywords. Much effort has been put into organizing COMMUSIC so that
    topics can be found quickly. 
    
    Edd
    
    
    
   251  DYO780::SCHAFER      19-FEB-1986    22  Recommendation: Amplifier for Synth Gear
   275    STAR::MALIK        18-MAR-1986     4  Amp suggestions?
   356    STAR::MALIK        13-MAY-1986    11  Looking for SMALL Amp/Speakers for Home Studio
   828  FDCV01::ARVIDSON      2-JUN-1987    27  Connecting Pro Synth Equipment to Home Stereo
   875     HUB::OPERATOR     17-JUL-1987    15  Roland Juno Sounds Thin w/ Gorilla Amp
  1120  COGVAX::LABAK         4-JAN-1988    13  Recommendation - Powered Keyboard Monitor for Gigs
  1676  IMGAWN::BERDAT       16-SEP-1988     6  TOA Keyboard Amps
  1684  FGVAXR::LAING        22-SEP-1988     6  AB Power Amps?
  1797  FGVAXX::LAING         6-DEC-1988     1  Peavey DECA 528 Power Amp?
  1872  FGVAXL::LAING        23-JAN-1989     6  Power Amp: "Pro" vs. "Home"
  1922  FGVAXY::LAING        21-FEB-1989     5  Rackmount (1 Space) Power Amplifiers
  2039   CURIE::DECARTERET    6-JUL-1989     9  Peavey KB300 Amp - Compression Light?
  2092  COGVAX::LABAK        21-AUG-1989     6  RAMSA Sound Equipment?
  2093   PAVAX::SPRIGGS      22-AUG-1989     4  Help - Music Man Guitar Amp Buzzing
  2096   NRPUR::DEATON       23-AUG-1989    19  Micro PA Systems?
  2141   HAMER::COCCOLI      18-OCT-1989    29  What Type of PA Gear Do You Use?
  2184  COGVAX::LABAK        28-NOV-1989    12  Power Amps - Digital or Analog?

    I use a Roland JC-120.
    
    It's a bit of an unusual choice because it's an open back amp and
    most keyboard amps in the JC-120 price range ($400 or so) have
    cross-over systems (I think) whereas the JC-120 is just two 10"s.
    
    But I really like it.  Of the amps I tried, it gives me the best
    piano sound from my RD-300 (ala MKS-20) and it has a KILLER builtin
    true-stereo chorus which really enhances certain sounds (organs,
    Rhodes, strings).
    
    It's INCREDIBLY light for 120 watts and is quite loud enough for the
    vast majority of situations.  You might need some monitor
    re-enforcement if you were playing in a very high stage-volume
    situation, but I've only wished for more in two situations: playing
    with Bill Buckley (noted loud guitarist) ;-), and playing a fairly
    big festival with a very large sound system.
    
    For small-to-medium clubs it's fine, in fact, I think it's IDEAL for
    small clubs and minimal PA situations because the stereo chorus really
    comes into play more.

I picked up a KD-2 for $425, Guitar Center had this amp on sale for around 
$400 not so long ago. I tried the KD-1 (50w) but the speaker went nonlinear 
on sounds with lots of low end at moderate volume. I haven't really cranked
this baby since the basement starts to vibrate and my wife is not too happy
when I set the level to 5+. The KD-2 features 4 channel input including 1 
low z with phantom power switch, volume/balance efffect and treble/bass 
controls per channel and master volume and effects knobs. Built in reverb and 
the back has assorted godies, stereo rca and 1/4 in's and out's, effects loop,
summed out...

I've been very satisfied with the sound and versatility of this amp. The 
summed out of bass, guitar, and 2 vocals into a 4 track sounded better than
my usual mucking around with single track/voice arangements. Maybe just my 
ignorance with 4 track recording/mixing?

Nits: The controls are hard to differentiate in low light conditions specially
if the unit is not at eye level. The cabnet rattles somewhat at higher volume
levels with sounds heavy in low frequency content. The rattle disappears with 
the back removed. There's no insulation/damping between the back cover and 
the frame so seems like this issue is easy to correct. I never set the beast 
above level 3 and so have left things as is.

One major difference between KD-2 and KD-3 is the addition of midi thru jacks.
At the time of purchase I felt that the difference in features didn't justify
the difference in price, list $660 and $990+(?).

Mark