Conference napalm::commusic_v1

I suggest you browse through the local music stores.  They will
educate you about what is available in your price range.  It
is possible that you could get a perfectly adequate system
for half the $15K you mentioned, if you are willing to use
a synthesizer rather than a real organ.

I'd stack my DX7 up against a (small) church organ any day.
    John Sauter

Assuming you want a real organ, i.e. with 2 AGO keyboards (61 keys)
and 1 AGO pedal board (real pedals that play polyphonically, not those
cheap Hammond organ kind), my recommendation for a NEW organ has to go
to Allen Organs of Pennsylvania.  These organs use digital sampling of
real pipes for their tone generators.  They sound terrific! My dad, who
had previously built a pipe organ into our house, sold it and bought one
of these. (He also has about 600 watts of amplification for it, including
digital delay, etc.).  The musician interface is identical to a traditional
organ, with the exception of a card reader interface on the more expensive
models, to load in additional stops.

For a used organ, there are several brands that you can choose from that
may be acceptable. These include Allen, Rogers, Wurlitzer, Baldwin, Yamaha,
and others.

Other organ manufacturers may now be coming up to the speed of Allen, as
my information is a few years old, and synthesizer technology has certainly
come a long way since then (I have a DX-7 as John Sauter does, but there
is no MIDI AGO pedalboard available, YET!).

	- Rick

P.S. AGO = American Guild of Organists, used in this context sort of like
	ANSI or ISO.

Right!  Where will we ever be able to get a MIDI pedal board?  I'd love to
have one... even if I have to take a stock organ pedal board and add simple
switches myself (velo control is pretty tough with the lower limbs).

Getting back to the subject, it's a pitty that you have to install an elec-
tronic organ in a Church!  Despite my affection for electronic music, large
audiences and choirs of humans deserve better.  If possible, you should
approach a wealthy parishioner with a musical bent who might have previously
indicated an interest in making a sizable donation (in memory of... etc.)
I should think that about half of the money spent on pipe organs for Churches
comes from a small number of donors in each Church.  If your budget were
doubled or trebled thus, you could consider real organs as well!  This is
only appropriate if the Church has a strong music program, to justify the
quality of the instrument.

If not, then go for a "real" electronic organ--full pedal board, no chord
or rhythm bull____.  I've heard a number of electronics in Churches some
years ago... can't remember them all, but Allens are indeed among the best.
(Don't stop there.  My info is also out of date.)  Also, I hope that those
mikes are for the podium (sp?), not the choir.  A Church that seats 250 is
small enough for the soloists to project into directly (unless the walls
are covered in foam!)  There's nothing like well-done music to put life
into a service that features a monotone pastor {8^).

I hope to hear from someone if they know where to get a cheap pedal board.
I get so pissed reading Bach and missing half of the pedal notes due to
LH pinky contention.

GW

(Talk about watts... Have you ever noticed how efficient a pipe organ is
in terms of blower watts in to decibels out?  And no matter how many stops
you pull, it never distorts!)

Long ago, when I was just a wee tad, I sang in the church choir and turned
pages for the organist.  The church had a serious pipe organ (con't recall
the maker), but I haven't heard a synthesized sound yet that can compare
to a wind-blown pipe organ in full voice.  Still gives me gooseflesh just
thinking about it.

len.

Korg now makes a MIDI peddleboard.  I haven't had the chance to check one 
out yet, but I believe Kurlan music in Worcester carries them.
They run about $500-$600 (I think).  They are MIDI controllers only,
so they need a MIDI keyboard or modules to play.

Ralph

Allen is by far the best traditional organ. 

If you go electronic the best you can do is a Kurzwiel 250 at $10,000 and
worth every cent. That leaves you plenty for pedals, amps, speakers...etc.

Dennis Savage

I talked to some guys who are pretty sharp and have done this sort of thing.
Here's what they say:

	1 piece  Emulator II                $7200.00
	2 pieces QSC A-1400 power amp       $1138.00
	4 pieces JBL 4698 speaker cabinets  $3296.00
					    --------
                                          $11,634.00
                                         
They say this will deliver the essential audio equivalent of the power of
God. The Emulator II is a sampling machine with lots of organ samples available.
I think you can even get the organ at the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City. You
can also get St. Giles Cripplegate, the Bosendorfer piano at Royal Albert
Hall and the Stienway at Carnegie Hall. There are also string samples and
choir samples and really whatever you want to do yourself.

Anyway they say it's the perfect thing. The amps and speakers will be more
than adequate. The QSC A-1400 is 200 RMS a side into 8 ohms. The JBL 4698
is an 18, a 10 and a ring radiator or some other comparable tweeter.
                                                          

Dennis Savage

If anyone's interested, Allen Organs is right across the street from Centre 
Music House in Framingham center.  Small brick building that looks sort of 
like a mausoleum.
                           

						-Jeff

The Korg MIDI pedal board is just a one octave deal like on the old Moog
Taurus or an old Hammond organ. A real church organist will need a real AGO
pedalboard, with polyphonic capabilities and the full complement of full-size
pedals.\

	Mainly for this reason, neither a Kurzweil, Emulator, or ANY other
synthesizer will do. Of course, its not MY church.

	- Rick

    My cousin and her husband, Permelia and David Sears might have alot of 
useful information for you.  I already talked to them and they said that
they would be glad to talk to you.  They're real organ nuts, they even have
one in their garage.  They are members of the national Organ Historical 
Society (OHS), both have advanced degrees in music, the have been church 
organists and music directors for several different churches, and have given 
several concerts.  In addition David has taught music classes at some of the 
local colleges.

    They live in Dunstalble, Ma. and their phone number is 617-649-9379,
(which is a local call from Nashua, NH, just leave off the area code).

Nancy Henson

	Any compromise has its drawbacks; there's no way an electronic organ
will have the sound of a real pipe organ. But what .7 suggests is a viable
lower cost alternative.
	I can't speak for the organ, but I can for the amp and speakers.
The QSC is a fantastic amp for the money. I own the older model 31, which
is similar, and haven't had any problems. The A1400 has most of the features
of the 31 but at lower cost. Power is 200W/ch into 8 ohms, 325W/ch into 4,
and 600W mono. If you could get the JBL's in 16 ohm and parallel them up
you'd have 1200 watts to play with.
	I'm not familiar with the 4698's, but I am with the 4628B, which
has an 18, a 10, and a ring radiator (bullet tweeter) in a Cabaret cabinet.
They sound great, response is from 30Hz to 15KHz. They are not as efficient
as horn loaded JBL's, the sensitivity is 98 dB/1W/1m but they'll handle 400W
a piece. 
	AST, on Broadway in Manhattan sells the A1400 for $500 each. Manny's
Music on 48th Street regularly sells JBL stuff for around 30% off list, and
they will dicker.

Let us know what happens

CdH