Conference napalm::commusic_v1

What you need depends enormously on your taste in music plus your skills.
In addition, what you can afford depends on your budget.  Give us some idea
of what kind of music you like, what sort of musical skills you have, and
how much you're willing to spend, and we ought to be able to offer advice.

However, you might be able to get better advice by taking that same information
to a music store.
    John Sauter

re .1:  Thanks, John, for responding.  To answer your questions:

Kind of music I like:  Classical (piano, organ, symphony)
                       Soft-rock and show music (e.g., Foreigner, Chariots of
                                                                       Fire)
                       Jazz (Windham Hill series especially)

Skills:  5 years of piano lessons, some voice training

Budget:  Up to about $5K (for now).

I would definitely like to get your recommendations before sampling the stores.
While you're at it--what stores (name/location) do you like?   
            
                            Thanks!








                                 Dave Foster

Your musical training is far enough away from mine that I do not feel that I
can give you good advice.  I do know a music store that is interested in
Macintosh: Daddy's Junky Music Store in Nashua, New Hampshire. The store
manager, a guy named Fritz, is always talking about hooking his Macintosh up
to his synthesizers.  I recently saw him hanging around the Apple store in
Nashua. 

Unless one of the other participants in this NOTES file can give you some
advice I suggest you start at the stores.  Gather literature and listen to
the in-store demos, then go home and think about it.  Your budget is enough
for a DX7, but not for a Synclavier. 
    John Sauter 

Dave,

I'll pick this one up.  One more question:  Do you want to be able to record
your synthesizer?  Some of the largest investments in a home studio are mixers
and tape recorders.  If you don't want to make recordings, you can cut your
budget.  BUT (and this is an important 'but') if you don't buy a recorder and
mixer, you'll probably have to buy more raw synthesizer power to be able to
play lots of voices at once. 

I think a good start would be something like:

    1	Fostek A-8 8-track tape recorder	$1500 (?)
    1	Fostek 350 8-track mixer		$1000
    1	Yamaha DX-7				$2000

Then there's the MAC MIDI interface.  The article I referred to eariler is at
home somewhere; I'll bring it in tomorrow and update this list.  I think you
can 'take it all home' for about $5K.  Also those Fostek prices are 'list', so
you might find a good deal if you are willing to shop and barter.  The stores I
have dealt with like to hear things like 'Well, what if I also bought that
frimmit interface you showed me?'  When they think you're going to walk out
with an armload, they can deal lower prices.  But you have to be careful,
'cause if they think you're loaded with dough and anxious to buy, they wanna
make some money (I guess dealing with starving rock bands all day does that to
them). 

The DX-7 is probably a good synth to start with since it's a pretty powerful
machine and lots of software has been written for it (at least on Apples, which
I don't have).  The one drawback, as John has mentioned elsewhere, is that it
will only play one instrument at a time.  It will play up to 16 notes in that
instrument at once, but you can't get something like trumpets and violins at
the same time.  That's where the recorder comes in.  The Yamaha's two best
features for me are a powerful sound generator and A LOT OF FLEXIBILITY IN
MODIFYING SOUNDS.  LOTS!

Now if you substitute a Yamaha rack mount box instead of the mixer and
tape recorder, you can get two more DX-7s (in a rack box, no keyboard)
for $2200.  After that, each additional DX-7 plug-in module is $550, up
to a maximum of 8.  No recorder/mixer, but you can now play three real time
instruments (violins and trumpets and piano) at once.  I think it's not as good
a deal since you give away 8 voices in non-real-time for three voices in
real time. (Actually that's probably 7 voices in non-real-time, since I
would bet that one will be dedicated to a click/timing track if you use
the MAC, but I'm guessing).

Now there are many other ways to go: Casio make a small synth called
(I think) the CZ-101.  This guy sells for about $450 and is MIDI-able.
It's about 4 note poyphonic (maybe 6? maybe 8? the term 'x note poyphonic'
means how many notes you can hold down at once and get sound. the Yamaha
is 16 note polyphonic!).  It's pretty powerful for the price, but really
isn't in the Yamaha DX-7 league.  The reason I've not bought one is that
I'm seriously thinking about a Yamaha rack box.  After the first two modules,
the DX-7 plug-ins are only $100 more.  But that first $2200 makes a difference!
But you could get four of those for less than the cost of a Yamaha, but I'm
not sure anyone in this notes file would recommend that.  I wouldn't.  But as
a single simple MIDI synthesizer to start on, maybe.  But if you do that, be
prepared to want more soon.

I'm done rambling for now.  I'll try to find that MAC article tonight.

-jim

Don't try to buy everything at once.  I think it's a good idea to get
some sort of MIDI keyboard that you can hook up to your Mac first (like
the DX7). Get used to getting different sounds and using your software
package for sequencing, editing and patch changing.  Then you will be
ready for your next step.  You might want some sort of MIDI drum machine
since your into jazz and soft rock (like a Roland TR707).  Maybe
a combination 4-track / mixer for recording would better suit your
budget.  Also a microphone (for vocals), digital delay, and reverb unit
would greatly enhance the quality of your recordings.  You could afford all
of this for $5000.

For example, this might be a neat little package.  All prices are ball
park figures.

	Macintosh - Your computer

	Software and MIDI interface				 $250
	Yamaha DX7 MIDI keyboard				$1600
	Roland 707 MIDI drum machine				$1000
	Tascam 244 Port-a-studio 4-track recorder / mixer	 $950
	Shure SM57 microphone & stand				 $130
	Alexsis XT digital reverb				 $700
	Effectron II digital delay				 $400
	Cables, patch cords etc.				 $200
								-----
								$5230	


Buy each piece one at a time, learn how to use it, and integrate it
into your system before getting the next piece. I built my studio this
way.  Maybe the price will drop on something or a new piece of gear
comes out that better fits your needs will come along if you expand
this way. How serious are you about this 'hobby'?

Dave

	One detail that seems to have slipped thru the cracks is
that once you have this fancy-pants n-track recorder and mixer,
you'll need something to mix down ONTO.  Another tape recorder.

	If you already have a good cassette recorder with your
stereo unit, that will probably do.  If not, more bucks.

	By the way, have you had a chance to play with the 'Professional
Composer' package for the Mac?  What did you think?

							- Karl

Re .4 and .6 on recording my synthesized music:

Yes, I'd like to be able to send the output to a tape.  I was thinking that I
could manage that with my Hi-Fi VCR (Panasonic 1730) which has Dolby noise
reduction built in and does a very nice job of capturing material off records,
etc.  Any reason why my VCR wouldn't work as well as an audio cassette deck 
(which I don't have)?

Re .5 on how serious I am about this hobby:

Ultimately, very serious.  I have 5 children, 9 and under, plus a wife with 10
years of piano lessons who is very creative with song-writing as well.  I am
predicting a revolution in music composition in the next 10 years, due 
primarily to the advent of ever more powerful music composition software coupled
with more powerful (and cheaper) sythesizers.  These two will allow anyone with
a musical idea to make it audible without going through "umpteen" years of 
instrumental training on keyboard and the like.  What I envision is the creation
of instrumental music on the scale of a symphony orchestra with the really
incredible capability of both printing or playing it in my own home and not 
having to run around to live orchestras, hoping someone will play my stuff so
I can hear how it sounds.  I anticipate all my family being involved in this
form of creative activity at various levels of skill.  Imagine being able to say
to a buddy:  "Hey, come on over to my place and listen to my latest string
quartet (or piano sonata, or symphony, or jazz-rock composition, etc.)."  Or,
"Here, take my cassette and play my latest stuff on your Hi-Fi VCR.  I overlayed
the audio with excerpts from my favorite movies!"  Sound like a pipe dream?  I'd
like to make it happen!

I like the idea of starting modestly and building up a studio, though.  That's a
good suggestion for lots of endeavors!

Re .6 on Professional Composer for the MacIntosh:

I have not had a chance to spend time with this product yet.  A recent issue of
MACWorld magazine did an article on several pieces of composition software.  It
seemed that Concertware came out the strongest, though each had its strengths.
I understand some really neat software is in use up at Dartmouth in its music
program (it doesn't run on the MAC, though).  

I am not familiar with Professional Composer, or any of the other music software
for the Macintosh.  Be careful when you assemble your first, "minimum", system,
to be sure that all of the parts work together.  It would be frustrating
to discover after you'd taken it home that music created with the composition
software could not be output to the synthesizer, and music created from the
synthesizer's keyboard could not be read into the composition software.

A few years ago Passport Systems had software like this.  They recommended
that you create music with the composition software, print it, then play
it into the performance software from the keyboard!  Needless to say I didn't
buy.

My only problem with using a VCR is that it is monophonic.  I like to spread
my instruments between two stereo speakers.
    John Sauter

I think stereo VCRs are here.

re -2
There will be no revolution.
There have always been easy instruments that anyone could play; virginals,
guitars, recorders, kazoos, singing, drums, etc.  There has been no apparent
excess of talent in the general population for making music.

A person with expressive talent and some specifically musical talents,
such as mathematically related ones, can make fine music with a comb and
tissue paper.

A person without expressive talent and without any musical talent can't
make good music with the biggest orchestra in the world.  After all, it
doesn't matter whether the orchestra is 100 people or inside a synth;
someone has to have the patience, expressive commitment, and mathematical
talent to produce a score.

The fact is, most people don't want to make their own music, couldn't
if they wanted to.

I heard this promise of a revolution before, from John Simonton (I think).
The only important revolution is the home studio recording; the source of
sound makes no difference, only the person behind it.  People can indeed
make tapes of their guitar or their synth (no difference in expressive
capability between the two) and send them all over the world, even
distribute them professionally.  But the source of sound doesn't matter.

I understood Chomsky to tell us that all languages were equally expressive
(of different things).  I suggest that different instruments are equally
expressive in the right hands.

"Umpteen years?"  Most people will take umpteen years to learn all the
capability of their most capable synths.

Everything stays the same.

TOm

I partially agree with .9: it takes a person with expressive and musical
talent to produce good music, no matter the instrument.  I heard Jean-Pierre
Rampal play a pennywhistle.

However, there have often been good musicians who were limited in their creative
power by lack of access to good instruments.  I don't mean the "best in the
world" musicians--they can get anything they want--I mean the good but not
great musicians who have to make a living programming computers, for example,
but who would really rather be in the musical world.  For those people the
computer-based synthesizer is important, because it means they can have access
to sounds they could not otherwise afford.

I don't completely agree that a guitar has the same expressive power as an
orchestra.  Maybe it does in the hands of world-class musicians, but for
most musicians access to a very patient orchestra gives them more freedom
than being limited to what they can play with their own hands in real time.
   John Sauter

	I think the revolution is already here.  With the advent of
	programmable drum machines, synthesizers, and sequencers
	coupled with programmable digital delays and reverbs and
	low cost home multi-track recorders anything is possible.

	I know enough about music theory to get by. With the abilty
	to program these machines in step time (one note, one chord,
	one beat at a time) I can make tapes that sound like a whole
	band.
	
	Dave

Re .9:

Your points are well taken, and I might have waxed a bit euphoric on this one
(like some other wags in the press have already done with respect to home and
professional computers), but let me restate my essential thesis:

I believe that people's ability to make audible what they "hear" (in their
head) and feel (in their heart) in terms of new forms of music arising from
their own creative talent is limited by two things (and these apply to the vast
majority of would-be amateur composers): 

1) CONVENIENT ACCESS TO ENSEMBLES AND ORCHESTRAS TO PLAY THEIR MULTI-INSTRUMENT 
   STUFF.  Are you going to be inspired to write a beautiful symphony if you 
   have to move mountains to get an orchestra to play it?  Even if they do, you
   won't get to "tailor" their rendition unless you're the conductor.  What if
   you don't want anyone to hear it until you've heard it and polished it 40
   times in an interactive mode?  If you can't do that in your head (a la Ludwig
   van Beethoven), then I submit that composition software plus synthesizer plus
   a stereo loudspeaker system could inspire you to make the admittedly 
   strenuous effort at composition.

2) INABILITY TO PLAY WELL ALL THE INSTRUMENTS THAT ONE MIGHT BE ABLE TO "HEAR"
   AND WRITE MUSIC FOR.  If I want to try out on a piccolo a little piece I've
   written, I am pretty limited unless I play the piccolo or at least a keyboard
   pretending to be a piccolo.  What if I can imagine and want to hear music 
   that moves at a speed few musicians could handle?  Having played
   the clarinet, I can tell you that playing 32nd notes with clear, even tone
   above and below the "break" is no mean feat.  

   My analogy for this limitation #2 is the following:  I often have cartoon
   ideas pop up in my head, but they stay there because I cannot draw like
   Shultz.  Sometimes I can elicit a good laugh by describing in words what
   I "see" to someone else, but that's a poor second to really seeing it.  What
   if there were "cartooning software" around which could allow me to cut and
   paste figures and facial expressions and background settings with appropriate
   icons, such that with some effort I could visualize on a screen what I see in
   my head?  That would really free me from the impediment of a poorly developed
   (or nonexistent!) technical drawing ability.  Granted, if I don't "see" or
   can't construct interactively a funny cartoon, then the greatest software 
   can't help me, but I'm interested in an "enabling tool" for giving reality to
   the musical ideas I do have (or think I can invent on the fly).

I also think that the artistic talents latent in the general population would
surprise most of us.  That we haven't heard them (in music) is not because they
aren't there, but rather because a fertile culture involving social encourage-
ment and powerful enabling tools has not existed.  We tend to think that only
the few "gifted" are capable of musical creativity (or any other form of 
creativity, for that matter).  I don't believe that assumption and I expect 
that my kids will disprove it if I encourage and enable them appropriately, 
which is why I want to acquire music synthesis hardware and software.  

I agree that there are probably many many people with untapped musical talent.
However, composers must also have expressive, poetic talent.  Movie composers
for example, always lack this.  Its abscence helps them in their work of 
fulfilling other people's (directors) ideas about what the music should be.

Anyway, you pointed up something against your argument of great importance.
You said you'd like cartoon software to enable you to make comics without
drawing ability.  I submit that many modern comics drawers draw poorly.
However, they draw with great personal style.  Cartoon-drawing software
would probably depend heavily on "standard" ordinary commercial art
style.  I have seen drawings by unexpressive artistically talented students.
They have no personal expressive or specialness in the style of the drawing.
This is always true of synthesized orchestra, as well.  The instrumental
playing is standard, ordinary and boring.  Synthesize the great instrumental
solos from the old works, the Rite of Spring bassoon opening (which should
sound strained and difficult), the violin solo in Scheherezade (which should
be sexy, alluring, and slurry IN THE RIGHT HISTORICAL VIOLIN STYLE),
and you discover that each instrumentalist CANNOT be replaced by one
synthesist for sensitive listeners.   Each human instrumentalist carries
with them a profound knowledge of the styleS, historical styles, pop
styles, jazz styles, tones DIFFERENT TONES for different styles - just
try to program that in your damn synclavier, different ways to use
portamento (NOT ALL THE TIME THE WAY portamento switches do it), 
and you have something Chomsky discovered in language.  All human
languages are equally expressive, about different things.  All human
instruments are EQUALLY expressive, in different ways.  This means that
a whole synclavier is only capable of as much expression as one zither, 
and I believe that.

Tom

	RE: .13

	I thought this was a note on basic configurations?

	Well anyway, Tom, don't you think clasical composers wrote
	their pieces in front of a piano (or whatever) first to work
	out their ideas and then tried them out on other instruments?
	The way another instrumentalist interpreted the piece may
	be different then what the composer intended, but might have
	enriched it with feeling and technique.

	Do you expect a synthesizer to exactly capture the feeling
	of a great soloist, when you're used to the original?
	I've heard synthesizer players who have a lot of createtivity
	and feeling in their playing. It's all a matter of taste.

	Instruments containing computers are just tools for making
	music like any other instrument. The skill and creativity
	of the musician using them is what counts, and what can
	bring out the beauty of music.

	Dave

Thanks to all who have shared both their suggestions on hardware and their
honest feelings about the potential (positive or negative) of synthesized
music for allowing the expression of musical ideas/feelings.  I've learned
a lot in the process of reading your comments and reactions.  Additional
stuff re the preceding discussion is, of course, welcome!

As promised, the following is an article from the May 1985 issue of the
IMA (International MIDI Association) Bulletin reproduced without permission:

"MACMIDI? - Digidesign's Macintosh Interface

Good news for fans, programmers, and users of the APPLE MACINTOSH.
DIGIDESIGN, the folks who make alternative drum sounds for digital
drum machines and more recently the Sound Designer Macintosh software
for the Emulator II, in conjunction with ASSIMILATION, producers of
many Apple peripherals, are producing the MIDI CONDUCTOR, a Macintosh/
MIDI interface.

The interface consists of a cable with a small 1x1x3 inch box that
connects to the serial port on the back of the Mac.  A 'replacement'
serial port is provided on the side of the box and traditional MIDI
In/Out connectors are found on the front.  MIDI conductor comes fully
documented with a list price of $79.00.  Digidesign indicates that the
interface will be mass-produced and readily available at your local
computer stores.  For more information contact Digidesign, Inc. at
920 Commercial St., Palo Alto, CA, 94303.  Phone (415) 853-0436."