Conference napalm::commusic_v1

The system you describe does sound very nice, and it sounds reasonable, in
the sense that what you are being offered sounds like it could be built:
it's not just empty promises.  One thing to be careful of is the item which
is not available yet.  If you would not be happy with the system in the absence
of that item, defer buying anything until it is available.  That will help
to motivate the store to get it in stock for you, and will protect you from
a cancelled project.

I am not a keyboard player, so I am oriented towards the sound generator
more than the keyboard--for me the 73-key plastic keyboard would be more
than adequate.  I have some MIDI software for the Apple II + Roland MPU-401
which you are welcome to if you get that configuration rather than the C64.

No matter what computer you get, at some point a bunch of us with MIDI
interfaces ought to get our equipment in one room to see what can be done.
I have found the Roland DX-7 to be a very nice source of sounds, and I have
the Fostex 8-track recorder.
    John Sauter

First of all, I did graduate from MIT in '82 (VI-3, or Computer Science for
the rest of you...).  Second, John Sauter meant the YAMAHA DX-7, not the 
Roland DX-7 in his last reply.

The Roland system looks really terrific to me.  I would like to get a weighted
keyboard for my DX-7 someday, and the Roland keyboard looks like a winner
(that or a Kurzweil, anybody got $10,000 to give me?).

Another advantage to modular systems is that you can build them one piece
at a time, if you can't afford it all at once.  For instance, you can go
on using your digital delay until the MIDI version comes out, and then maybe
a better one will be out from another MIDI manufacturer anyway.  You could
also have your Poly-61 converted and use that for a while with the new keyboard
until you could afford the Super-Jupiter controller.

Good luck, and let's JAM.

	- Rick

Right: Yamaha DX-7, not Roland DX-7.  I understand that Yamaha is offering
the DX-1, which is a wooden-key version of the DX-7, with the equivalent
of two DX-7s built in.  It's pretty expensive, though.
    John Sauter

Yes John,  I have seen the DX-1 in New York (it is only available in Japan
so far, but I guess they got a Japanese one at Sam Ash's).  It was also
about $10,000.  There have been rumours of a midi-version of the PF15
piano, which would be substantially cheaper.  This might end up being the
same price as the Roland Midi controller anyway.

For me, this discussion is moot, since I have no more $$$ to spend right
now on equipment. But wishful thinking is always fun!!

	- Rick

Thanks for the input. I went to EUW again this week to play some more.
They showed me a flyer detailing the digital delay. It has 64 presets,
same as the synthesizer, with delays up to 750 milliseconds. They will
sell it for ~$600. I can live without it at first. 

I also listened to a demo tape of the Jupiter 8, which is essentially the
same as the MKS-80. INCREDIBLE PIANO sound! I thought the tape was a group
featuring the Roland as a solo instrument with traditional acoustic instruments
as backup. The attacks, time variance of tone, pitch-inverse proportional
decay, and pretty much all the "key" characteristics were totally believable.
The tape had a jazz cut featuring electric guitar, acoustic piano, bass, and
drums, all done on the Roland. I was amazed. You could here the pick plucking
the guitar strings and overdriving the pickups. I'm going to the Boston
store to play the whole setup (they only have one complete outfit in stock).
But I think I'm already sold.

Re. "Let's JAM" and "all our MIDI stuff in one room" - sounds good to me but
you'll have to come to my apartment because this stuff isn't small enough to
pack in a car. (Strangely enough, no one has ever complained to me about the
volume levels coming out of my apartment. I read a note here a long time ago
about this problem. Maybe I'm just lucky.)

I also ordered the Tascam M-106 4 channel stereo mixer. Any comments on it?
EUW says if I don't like it, I can order something else. They seem to be
perpetually out of stock. But I keep going there because the salespeople are
very friendly and willing to talk. (And they remember your name.)

	Ted

Just to add to the scene I have the PRO (Did I hear "YUK") playing MIDI and have a Desire to find other DEC followers for MIDI 
on DEC software. RSVP

Lee...

THIS COMMENT IS MORE ABOUT WURLITZER'S THAN ROLAND. IN JANUARY I ORDERED AND
PAID FOR A ROLAND TR-707 DRUM SYNTH. DELIVERY TIME OF 4-6 WEEKS. I STILL DON'T
HAVE IT AND I ONLY GET A "ROLAND HASN'T SHIPPED YET" AS THE EXCUSE.
I HEARD A RUMOR THAT DADDY'S HAS HAD THEM IN STOCK SINCE LAST DECEMBER, I 
HAVEN'T CHECKED IT OUT YET. WITH WURLITZERS IT'S BEST TO MAKE THEM GET IT
BEFORE YOU PAY. I'VE DONE ALOT OF BUSINESS WITH THEM AND THEY DON'T SEEM TO 
BE VERY GOOD AT PROCESSING ORDERS.


					*db*

Re .7: Strange. I was at EUW yesterday (Monday) and there was a TR-707 sitting
right on top of my new keyboard. By the way, that's a nice machine. However,
I prefer the TR-909 because it has more extensive programming features and
I can tune all the sounds and adjust their characteristics to suit the kind
of music I'm playing. For "pop" music I adjust the snare drum to use a short
decay, not much snare, and a high pitch; for jazz, everything opposite. Of
course it cost twice as much. I admit that the digitally sampled sounds on the
707 are better than the synthesized ones on the 909. But, I generally don't do
drum solos and with five other instruments playing you have to listen real hard
to tell the difference. 

Yes, I went for it! Snafu - salesman forgot that the stand for the keyboard was
an extra $240. For that little "sorry, I forgot", I got him to throw in a few
10 1/2 inch tapes at cost.

While playing with the C64 in the store, I decided that it sucked. The software
from Passport Designs is primitive. So, I ordered the MPU-401 interface box and
I'll write software for my Sanyo MBC-555 which I don't use for anything except
drawing pretty pictures with the library of C routines I wrote for it.

Speaking of programming, I discovered a bit of non-standardness in the MIDI
interface on the keyboard. It seems that the "OUT" ports (of which there are
4) send not only what is being played on the keyboard but what is being sent
to the "IN" port as well. Now, on the whole, this is a good thing for some
very complicated reasons which I won't go into now. This new "feature" is
being adopted by most manufacturers of modular systems and is tentatively called
"MIDI MIX". One example of the usefulness is that you can plug a sequencer into
the "IN", play along with the sequencer output, and both sets of control signals
will go to the sound modules connected to the "OUT"s. Unfortunately, this
causes horrendous problems when used with a computer. Suppose you are using
the following setup:

	Computer OUT to Keyboard IN.
	Keyboard OUT1 to Computer IN.
	Keyboard OUT2 to Drum IN.	(Drum set to channel 1)
	Keyboard OUT3 to Synth IN.	(Synth set to channel 2)

You have already recorded a drum track in the computer on track 1. Track 1 is
set to play while track 2 is set to record, with the intent that you are going
to play the Synth while listening to the drums. When you press a key, the signal
goes to the Computer and is recorded, and at the same time, goes to your synth
and is heard. The Computer is sending messages to the Keyboard IN which get
forwarded to the Drum and are also heard. BUT!!! The drum messages are going
back into the Computer IN via Keyboard OUT1 and are being added to your synth
track!!! I called Roland in California and spoke with Jim something (I wrote
it down) who is their head MIDI tech (and is purportedly the brother of one
of the members of DEVO). He said that they originally wanted one of the four
OUTs to be Keyboard messages only (as per spec) which you would connect to
a computer for multi-track recording. Unfortunately, this requires an extra
UART and MARKETING (typical or what?) wanted to cut manufacturing costs.
Jim said that they are working with the software companies and they are
implementing a filter-translate-and-mix feature which we software developers
should adopt. Here's how it works. You set the Keyboard channel to play on
channel 3 (for which we have no synth), tell the computer to only record
channel 3 information, as it comes in, and send it out again changed to channel
2 so it can be heard after going through the keyboard again. Jim said that
the MPU-401 has some intelligent filtering feature built in that will do some
of the work for you. 

By the way, if you're wondering why there are multiple OUTs, it's because
MIDI daisy chains longer than 3 hops or 50 feet through the MIDI THRU port
aren't guaranteed to work. So this lets you set up a "star" configuration
without paying for the Roland 1-in-4-out box. Wasn't that nice of them?

Soon enough, I will begin writing MPU-401 stuff for MS-DOS. Any advice
(hello John) and/or interest in discussing software features will be
appreciated.

	Ted

I spoke with wurlitzer's yesterday and lo and behold my TR-707 is in. I'll
be picking it up this weekend. However they have had a demo 707 in each store 
since January when I tried the demo and bought mine. My comment was that
they seem to be very inefficient at processing orders. 
 I will post a review of the TR-707 next week some time after I get a chance to 
use it some.
					*db*

re: .8--I have rewritten the MPU-401 manual for readability, send me your
address and I'll send the result.  If you have an LN01 I can send you a file
to print.  The MPU-401 appears to be becoming popular, probably because it
has sync-to-tape and the Passport interface does not.

The MPU-401 does have filtering, but it will not change MIDI channels.  Since
you need a program to change MIDI channels you might as well do the filtering
at the same time.  (This is just a guess; I don't have the problem since
I have only one instrument.)

I have noticed that getting good sounds out of an instrument depends much
more on the musical ability of the person playing (or programming) the
instrument than the nature of the instrument.  Keep in mind, when you listen
to a demo, that you are hearing the instrument being played by an expert.
If you are someone like me, whose ability to enjoy music is far greater than
his talent, you may find that it doesn't sound nearly so fine when you play
it.
    John Sauter

At the risk of being immodest, I have been a serious student of the piano
since I was five and have performed in concert halls in 40 states, 3 provinces
of Canada, Italy, Austria, and Switzerland. Why am I a computer programmer?
Because to be a rich pianist, you have to debase yourself in a most
disgusting fashion. (I'm thinking of Liberace and Richard Clayderman (sp?))

Besides, the software features I have in mind will allow me to do things like
select a run of thirty second notes and tell the computer to correct the timing
so that they are perfectly even. In fact, with a computer and good software,
excellent performance is simply a matter of knowing what you want it to do
and saying so. If you don't know what you want, then you probably won't notice
anything wrong with your music anyway. (Classic example: whenever I am at a
party and have even one drink, I can't play anything right but people love it
anyway.)

I read the MPU-401 manual 4 times yesterday. It looks like it was translated
from Japanese. I would love a copy of your rewritten version.
We have an LN01 here so could you mail it to me on OLORIN?

My keyboard, programmer, and stand have arrived already. The Super Jupiter
and rack mount haven't. Sigh.

Also, (stupid stupid) I had thought the MPU-401 was MIDI to RS-232. It's got
a DB-25 connector, but it is a parallel setup intended to be plugged right
into the computer bus via an adapter. Now I have to build an adapter because
nobody ever heard of a Sanyo computer before. I am not daunted, however. Once
I get it hooked up, the Sanyo's superior graphics will make it all worthwhile.

John, perhaps we should start a new note to discuss what software features
people have implemented or would like to see implemented. (Especially aids
to the non-virtuoso.)

The MPU-401 information is in the mail.  Anyone else who wants it can also
have it for the asking.  Suggestions for improving it will be cheerfully
accepted.

There is another way to be a rich pianist: be the best in the world.  For
almost everyone this is not possible, so we are reduced to playing for pleasure,
even if we are very good, and programming for a living.

For anyone of even moderate intelligence, it is possible to make a good living
as a computer programmer and still have time to do what one likes.  I used
to work with Kalman Reti, who was a very accomplished pianist, yet he decided
to program computers for a living.

I place myself in a different category: my first love is computer programming.
I am lucky to be living at a time when programmers are in short supply, so
my meager talents command top dollar.  This gives me time and resources to
persue my other interests, chiefly music.  I enjoy good music, but I have
no talent to speak of, so my participation is as a member of the audience
and occasionally as a supporter of those who do have talent.
    John Sauter