Conference kaosws::canada

    Yes the government has found a new way to extract revenue that requires
    little additional manpower!  But of course it will make the roads
    safer from all those nasty speeders.  Another sin tax that is hard to
    fight, after all who can be in favour of speeding, smoking or
    drinking?
    
    Looking forward to some illicit photos in the mail showing me caught in
    the act of speeding down the 401.  Hmmm maybe some polarized license
    plate covers are in order?
    
    
    
    ;-)

    We remember the day you met Mr. OPP on HWY 2!

I talked to a guy from Calgary.

I'm not sure about insurance but you won't lose points.

Rental agencies are having a hard time with the Alberta governement having
all the fines passed on to them.

One guy had his picture taken while both hands were off the wheel.
He was sent a careless charge along with a speeding ticket.

In Calgary you look for a mini van pulled over to the side of the road.
The Radio Stations help you out by telling you where the camera's are.

I thought if you wanted to dispute the fine that you could make an appointment
to see the picture. I'm sure there will be a flood of gadgets on the market
in the near future...

    I heard that the actual testing won't begin until the spring (not that
    you can speed a lot during winter anyways).
    
    Doug

    
    Apparently this photo system is being reconsidered in France,
    as some photos have been sent with tickets to the offenders
    homes, to be opened by the offender's wife, who discovers the
    passenger in the car is probably not a business associate or
    relative, if you get my drift.
    
    Pat

    Given that many trained profesionals have trouble distingishing
    between vehicles when using the radar guns just how is box
    suppose to do this.
    
    Its my understanding that radar works on the relative size of
    the vehicles frontage...so if you are passed by a truck it is
    hard to distingish from the gun which vehicle is speeding but if
    you are there it becomes obvious. Similarly if you are passing a truck 
    in a relatively small vehicle your chances of getting tagged 
    are very small.
    
    Another thing is that if you challange a "normal" ticket on site you
    can ask the office to "tune" the radar for you. (this basically prooves
    that the radar gun is reading ok/or not).
    
    Lastly radar is subject to weather conditions....is the smarts in the
    box to allow for this or to shut down if condition are poor ?
    
    
    
    Brian V
    
    
    Who would still like to know how they get away with this $%^&
    

    These things are not a box that sits unattended by the side of the
    road, they're mounted in a cruiser that's attended. 

    Yes heard the same thing .... that it will be in a cruiser.  Big saving
    is officer doesn't need to stop you to issue ticket.  So many more
    tickets can be issued in the same timeframe.
    
    Good money machine.  Wish I had a cut of the action!

    We have these cameras in the UK (GATSOs they're called over here, but
    don't ask me what that stands for).
    
    These cameras are permanent and unmanned fixtures at (what is meant to
    be) a section of road which is a notorious accident blackspot, or is a
    section where people often break the speed limit; the other locations
    are at road junctions to catch out those of us who like 'jumping' a red
    light.
                                                
    Wherever a camera is installed there have to be signs up warning
    drivers that the cameras are there ! You might think that that defeats
    the purpose, but no, you still get the few drivers who (and one can only
    assume this) think they are either invisible, immune from prosecution,
    or just a few sandwiches short of a picnic !
    
    These cameras can 'read' number plates of vehicles in just about any
    weather condition night and day; the speed trap cameras are triggered
    by your excessive speed; the traffic junction cammeras are triggered by
    the operation of the lights, which in turn determines who has right of
    way.
    
    An example of one photograph that I saw in a motoring journal here in
    the UK, was from a three lane motorway; the photograph showed all three
    lanes of moving traffic (from the rear); all three lanes were occupied
    and printed over the shot of each vehicle in each lane (as in the last
    three vehicles to pass the camera) were the speeds (all different) that
    each vehicle was travelling at the time.
    
    These camera thingies have only just been introduced over the last 2
    to 3 years in Britain, and caused public outrage at the time, but they
    have now become more accepted as a way of life.
    
    If you are caught on camera so-to-speak, you receive a letter from the
    police with the details of your offence and a fine (no photograph); this 
    is providing your offence is fairly minor; if you are speeding way over 
    the limit then you can expect a personal call from the police and probably 
    a court case to follow; equally if you jump a red light and cause an
    accident... then you can expect some personal time with the police.
    
    Even with minor offences you can still elect to contest your case in
    court.... Not advisable as we Brits can also now be means tested when
    it comes to being fined for a traffic offence. In other words if you
    elect for a court case and lose, your fine takes in to account your
    ability to pay; so if you're a single person with no family, driving a
    Porsche... expect to pay more than a blue collar worker with a wife and
    4 kids. Best to opt for the fixed fine stated on the afore-mentioned
    letter (plus of course penalty points on your licence).
           
    Getting back to the cameras, Brits tried all sorts of tricks to combat
    the blasted things, from one bright spark printing and selling road
    maps (all perfectly legal) of where the GATSO cameras are installed, to
    companies manufacturing and selling (now illegal) number plates that
    cannot be read by the infra-red cameras. 
    
    Another tack was bunching up the letters on the number plate; the cameras 
    rely on certain spacing between each character on the number plate. The 
    result was that the government passed a law which stated that any vehicle
    carrying a plate with illegal letter spacing would automatically fail its 
    annual roadworthiness test. (All UK registered cars must pass an annual 
    check once more than three years old... any that fail cannot be driven 
    until whatever faults recorded are rectified.)
                                                    
    As far as 'proving who was driving the car when an offence was
    committed'... here the owner of the vehicle takes the hit unless he/she
    can prove (in some way) that they were not driving at the time.
    Speeding fines passed to car rental companies are automatically passed
    on to the person renting the vehicle at the time of the offence.
    
    Overall I think the cameras are a good idea in built up areas and at
    junctions, but my objection comes to the situation whereby you can be
    'booked' for speeding down a motorway at 3am in the morning with no
    other cars in sight.... that very definitely is a case of 'big brother
    is watching you' syndrome.
    
    Sorry if all that was a bit boring... Someone mentioned France back
    there and I just thought I'd mention the UK perspective...
    
    
    Reargards,
    
    Stephen      

    
    Latest word on deployment of roadside Ontario photo radar is
    that the tendering process has delayed the purchase by several
    weeks.
    Fines for obscuring the plates are to be raised from $20 to
    the $500 range (ouch).
    
    Since they apparently take the photo from the front, couldn't
    the Quebecois come over here and speed to their heart's content
    with the OPP getting photo after photo with the plate "J'aime ma
    femme"? What about motorcycles, with no front plate? 
    
    Pat

    Yet another delay......(good)
    
    Its seems a Canadian manufacturing has been fingered for the
    radar systems but wont be able to deliver until the end of the
    month.
    
    Also....This is second hand information but I was told that the
    radar will be permanently mount unattended boxes and that the 
    locations have already been anounce and will be published again.
    
    
    Brian V
    

    Today's Toronto Star would indicate that permanent stations are not the
    way the OPP is going .... instead unmarked minivans on the move .. no
    requirement to be stationary .... article talks about setting the
    threshold at 107kph on a 100kph highway.  Geez that ought to get just
    about everyone travelling down the 401 these days where 110-120 is the
    average speed of travel.  Hope they have lots of rolls of film.  I can
    imagine that minivan sales will boom as this revenue bonanza for the
    government begins!  More van ... more cameras .... more revenue!

    My connections report that the officer running the machine will have
    the discretion to set the threshold according to weather and traffic
    conditions at the time. Based on common practice with moving radar today 
    it's more likely to be above 110 than below.
    

I know someone who is working on this project and I'm told that the radars will
be located in a mini-van and the "speed setting" will be dependant on whether
or not quotas have been reached. IE: if you the officer hasn't reached his/her
quota for the day he/she will set the radar at a lower speed. Preliminary
estimates for generated income is around 21 million dollars a day! 

Ben

    I've heard from a friend of mine who is an OPP and 
    works out of Morrisburg he said the vans will be unmanned. The radar
    photo will be set up and then 'visited' regularly by the OPP on a
    regular basis throughout the day. He said the OPP can't afford to have
    someone sit all day on the 401 in Toronto to pick up speeders - hence 
    the photo radar. 
    
    He also said that they will pick a "speed of the day" to set the radar. 
    That will be determined on a random basis. Currently on the 401 betwwen
    Cornwall and Kingston, the OPP set the radar at 129 km/h. Anything over
    that and they have you - unless of course they need their quota filled. 
    
    Terry
    

    Perhaps the OPP will use them like they would in Arkansas to round up
    buxom babes for the Premier. I always knew that Bob Rae was up to
    something hideous.

    Glenn

    can't afford to have them sit around all day 
    
    
    I don't get it ... I thought that the police were on the highways
    to try and fight speeding but more importantly to help out with
    accidents, ID stolen vehicles, spot drunk drivers, help stranded
    motorists...ect ect.
    
    What was obviously ment was that the police will get the revenue
    wether someone is out there or not so why bother.
    
    The police will have greater affect on the road by being visible
    than by ticketing from an unmarked vehicle.
    
    Brian V
    

    
    The introduction of photo radar is just the beginning of robotic 
    monitoring of the population. The revenue possibilities are wide open,
    even the mayor of Ottawa is pushing for introduction of this technology
    to the region, and makes no secret of the revenue aspect.
    
    The cameras have not as yet incorporated radar detector detectors, so
    theoretically, one could protect oneself from momentary lapses by
    importing technology from south of the 49th.
    
    Watch for proliferation of these devices at intersections, and for seat
    belt monitoring in the coming years. With digital frame grabbing and
    connection to a central processing farm of Alpha machines, your ticket
    will be logged on your system before you arrive at work. 
    
    Ahh technology, ya gotta love it. In about 10 years, take a look around
    you, this will come to pass. Maybe even payroll deduction for certain
    offences, as an added convenience.
    
    Pat                               

    We can all move to Rwanda, they've had to scrub their plans for photo
    radar there due to the unrest.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Glenn

    Well having a manned van isn't really a problem is it given the amount
    of revenue this stuff will generate.  Heck it ought to cover the salary
    of the officer for that day in the first five minutes of use.  Sort of
    reminds me of Nairobi where meter maids are a great way of solving an
    unemployment problem.  
    
    Big savings is they don't have to pull you over, get your license info
    and write up the ticket.  That takes time.  In the time it takes to do
    this they could have nabbed dozens of other speeders.  So now even if
    the van is manned the rate of ticketing will jump by an order of
    magnitude.
    

    
    Latest deployment date according to media is AUG 15. Plate
    obscuring devices are available at flea markets near you. Stiff
    fines if you are caught using the counter-technology, though...$500?
    
    Pat

    Plate obscurers you can buy in flea markets use three methods:
    
    1) Polarizing filter, if camera has polarized lens plate MAY be
       obscured, legal but useless since Ontario's system does not have 
       polarized lenses.
    2) Clear high glare plastic cover or spray coating, increases the chance 
       that all or part of the plate will be obscured by reflected light, 
       legal but unlikely to actually work.
    3) Physical sheilds that restrict the angle a plate can be veiwed from
       or cover part of the plate. Illegal. 
    
    It's worth noting that according to the letter of the law obsuring any
    part of the face of the plate is illegal although it hasn't been
    enforced so long as the numbers and yearly sticker are visible, so my 
    "AXP the world's fastest computers" plate frame is, strictly speaking,
    illegal.

	I think they should put a Photo Radar in KAO leading to the 
	back 40 parking lot for a few days.  It seems there were several 
	individuals that were fed up with the shrinking resource(upper deck 
	parking), and they took out their frustration in the form of speeding.
	I think a retina scan of my eye won't work as evidence, because the 
	driver I saw(whose vehicle was airborne after hitting a bump) was 
	wearing one of those Groucho Marx fake glasses, big nose and 
	mustache combos.

	Concerned
	Sue Doe-Nim

    
    I think the only solution is to charge for parking, or at least
    set up manned toll booths on any new parking lots.
    
    This should mirror planned gov't policy in the region, as well as have
    tangible benefits to the company in the form of an improved
    financial balance sheet.
    
    There will also be fewer cars in the lot to ransack, forcing
    a movement of criminal activity out of the region.
    
    A very small 2 cents
    
    

     You mean a forced hiatus?
    
    Glenn

re:23

I can just see it.

The Parking Weany standing out with a polaroid, snapping away.

By the time you come down from the back forty it will be developed.

He'll ask you if you want to buy it from him as a bribe. If you don't your
manager will probably start an album.

	More Power

    the Snomobile was invented in Dayton, Ohio.
    as for the snowmobile, the canucks prolly have it 1st!  right Glenn?

	re.23

	Well Sue, you're being a little hasty.  This morning there was a 
	traffic jam to get into the upper deck at 8:00.  The security 
	person wasn't there to open the gate(rope) to allow people in.
	Consequently it looked like silly servant rush hour on the 
	Queensway.  People were backed up in both lanes waiting to get 
	into the lot.  It looked like the access road itself was a parking 
	lot.  Thanks to one ambitious employee who took it upon himself 
	to open the rope.

	Stopped still in Kanata.
	

re:28

Sue, I think you mistaken this as a problem. I must correct you on this
situation.

What you experienced this morning was that starting grid for the KAO parking
space 100. I guess you didn't hear the famous "Driver's Start Your Engines!"
over the cursing and swearing of the participants. The person whom dropped the
rope was in actuality the Starter and Pace car official.

Was it a photo finish?

	~Caught_in_the_pack

re: 29

While we're still off topic,

Anybody notice that they cut back the number of spaces on the upper deck ?

    
    
Mike.

    Gee whiz, I'm glad I didn't come into work today.
    
    But my son did!  With my car!
    
    Sue, was the speeding car a silver-gray Ford Probe?
    
    Bink Bobo

    Pat, what I'd like to know is, where did your son learn how to drive
    and moon everybody at the same time like that?!?
    
    Glenn

    was he driving an open Jeep?

    I'll take a crack at it.

    
    Bink

    >>>Sue, was the speeding car a silver-gray Ford Probe?

	No, it was a dark blue Toyota Tercel.  The 4x4 that was speeding
	was silver-gray.

	Sue