Conference kaosws::canada

    Pat, notes crash.  I just typed a similar note but not as well written
    as yours.  
    
    Regards,
    
    Tom.

    
    Are the our Leopards essentially obsolete?  Against serious opposition like
    M1A1 Abrams or T-82?  Do we have anymore than a handful of that key but
    forgotten necessity, heavy transporters?
    
    Certainly our M113 APC's are past it.  Especially when they are getting 
    put inthe place where there is serious, and *possibly* state-of-the-art
    opposition?
    
    I think Canadian people have no idea how little we actually have.  We
    are not likely to have to send in real tanks in peacekeeping (perhaps we
    *should* be), but don't expect to actually see any if war breaks out
    here.  (We certainly have no way of getting them anywhere overseas, like
    Newfie!).
    
    Ah, see, we *can* have a serious discussion.
    
    Marshall 
    
    
      

    
>    Are the our Leopards essentially obsolete?  

	I certainly think against that type of opposition, they would not 
	stand much of a chance. The Leopard II compares favourably against
	the M1A1. They have the same gun, the speed, range and 
	manuevorability (sp?) is similiar. The British Challengers are not
	quite as good, the French Leclerc is supposed to be.

	I would class the Leopard I as a medium battle tank with the Leopard
	II, M1A1, Challenger, Leclerc as heavy battle tanks. 
    
>    Certainly our M113 APC's are past it.  

	Darn right, the last one I was in, was older than me. To some extant
	the Grizzly can fulfill this role, however, the profile is a little
	high.
    
>    I think Canadian people have no idea how little we actually have. 

	Of course not, since the military is usual invisible except for
	our peackeeping role and then only when someone is shooting at us,
	holding us hostage or we are screwing up.

	Susan
    
      

    You guys have to forgive my ignorance but what is the purpose of
    spending money for military equipmnent,etc.etc.
    As far I know we are not in war and there is no reason why tax payers
    should support more military expenses or a bunch of brainless fanatics
    such the airborn regiment.
    
    Canadians should focus the resolve problems like
    poverty,deficit,economy,etc. not playing soldiers...
    

    
    re. -1.  No, we don't have to.  
    	     Neither your ignorance, nor your bigotry.
    
    	     If you don't understand it by now,
             you never, ever will.  
    
    	     
    	     Marshall  

>    You guys have to forgive my ignorance but what is the purpose of
>    spending money for military equipmnent,etc.etc.
>    As far I know we are not in war and there is no reason why tax payers

	We are not in any war as combatents, however, we do have approx 2500
	troops currently on UN duty trying to keep the peace. The Canadian
	government has decided to maintain and expand our peacekeeping role.
	Thus, the Canadian Forces are being sent out. As for equipment, our
	troops are not sent out naked. They do have clothing, rifles, jeeps,
	armoured personnel carriers, food and "bullets". This obviously is
	not free, therefore the tax payers are paying for a military. As for
	new equipment, it is not much different than DEC, you upgrade your
	equipment periodically. Only the Canadian Forces do that once a 
	generation or two, since it is expensive.

	If you do not want tax payers to fund the military, then you must 
	first get the Government to stop our peacekeeping duties, as well
	as stop all the other duties the Canadian Forces perform ie maintain
	our sovereignty, search and rescue, fisheries surveillance, aid to 
	civil power, etc. Then you can get rid of the military.

	Personally I don't think that will happen.

	Susan 

>    Canadians should focus the resolve problems like
>    poverty,deficit,economy,etc. not playing soldiers...

	One last point, Canadian's in the Forces do not play soldiers. War is
	not a game and preparing for it is not a game. Canadian soldiers are
	respected as professional worldwide amoungst our fraternity.

	Susan

    re .5 "...Neither your ignorance, nor your bigotry."
    
    I am not sure whose comment or attitude you are qualifying as such.
    I personally think a clear demonstration of criminal ignorance and
    bigotry has been witnessed in the behaviour in Somalia and in Canada of
    an racist and fascist group inside the  Airborne, ignorance and bigotry
    was also the cause of their Airborne colleagues standing by, letting them 
    do, not stopping or denouncing them earlier (or was it fear of bullies, 
    aka "esprit-de-corp"?). Most of all, ignorance and bigotry must have
    had their part in the Airborne command criminal blindness. 

    .8 ; .7 ; .6 I appreciated your answer :-)
    
    RE .5 Well I thougt that in this conference everyone is free to ask
    questions,discuss and express their view but as I can see there are
    still not evolved "elements" like yourself that are trying to stop
    this freedom.
    
    Well mister "smart" you should apply for the airborne regiment,I am
    sure they can use somebody like you...

    
    re. 8 
    
    I don't disagree with this, it was tarring the whole armed forces with
    the same brush that bothers me.  Those guys on the tapes really made me 
    sick.
    
    re. last
    
    This seems to have reached the grade 5 level.  Can't see any point in 
    continuing it.  See you at recess. ;^)
    
    

    I don't think that we can ever get rid of the military entirely, but I
    would much prefer an armed services setup like the Swiss - a small core
    of full-time soldiers and everyone else trained to fight if needed.
    
    I absolutley believe Canada should withdraw from all peace keeping
    missions and scale back the military by that amount - we simply can't
    afford the cost and I seriously question the effectiveness of so-called
    peace keeping missions (particularly given the deep seated hatred and
    religious beliefs that are behind mamy of todays conflicts).  Please
    note - I am not critisizing the Canadian Armed Forces!  I believe that
    for the most part (99.999%), they carry out their assigned missions
    very professionally - I'm questioning whether or not they should be
    given the mission at all.
    
    Lockyer
    

    As this Notes topic is about CF stories, I'll continue the thread:
    
    Back a few years when I had to conduct some radiation experiments with
    the Leopard at Aberdeen Proving Ground (APG), near Baltimore, Maryland,
    we took along a tank crew (they wouldn't let us civilians drive the
    thing).
    
    One of the crew members was also our mechanic (at that time he was
    Private Boris [Bud] Olenikow, later he became Loretta :^)).  
    
    One of the experiments was to expose the tank to a radiation flux about
    one kilometre from the radiation source.  Because of the distance and
    the relative intensity of the radiation at that distance, the
    experiment had to be conducted for long periods of time.  Also, the
    levels were not high enough to be considered a hazard to us, so we were
    allowed to stay at the tank location throughout the run.
    
    This was very tedious and the tedium spawned some raucus responses from
    Bud.
    
    It was a hot dry day and the experiment was running into his drinking
    time.  So, Bud stripped out of his uniform and walked around the area
    in his starkers and boots (this was a remote site but his sight was
    still revolting).  
    
    Now, one of the things that this experiment included was to determine
    the effect on neutron transport with certain material attached to the
    exterior of the turret.  Unfortunately, Soviet spy satellite fly-overs
    routinely photographed the APG area, which mean that we had to be
    cautious not to have this material in site during the fly-overs.
    
    After removing the material in anticipation of the next fly-over, we
    noticed that our naked Private, or is that privates, had a rather
    devilish grin on his face (everything about his countenace was
    devilish).
    
    At the signal from the Comm. officer that the satellite was directly
    overhead,  Bud mooned it!
    
    To this day, there must be somewhere in the Soviet military archives, a
    satellite shot of a Leopard tank and one set of rather grotesque buns!
    
    Bud was charged for being out of uniform.
    
    
    Pat

>    At the signal from the Comm. officer that the satellite was directly
>    overhead,  Bud mooned it!

	Pat, is it at this point that he became Loretta?

	Inquiring Mindless

    re.4 Buccione.
                   If you want peace prepare for war.

    re .14
    
           Mpa' ku' gancia :-)
    
    Weapon= any implement for fighting or warfare. (peace?)

    
    Any student of the Grat War and of WWII knows that the policy of
    letting one's forces degrade will put you in danger. It was so
    bad in Britain during WWII that the British government appealed
    to north americans to send over anything, handguns, shotguns, hunting
    rifles, binoculars, so that in the event of a Nazi invasion, individual
    Britons could choose to defend their towns and homes against a house
    to house search for Jews, and other "enemies" of the Third Reich.
    
    But of course, that could never happen here. Just ask the Beothuk
    aborginals, If you can find one, that is. Or a Canadian of Japanese
    descent who was around during WWII.
    
    Pat

    RE.15
               (peace?)=prevention is better than cure.

    .17 
        Mr. Kyobe,what in the hell this nation has to prevent? Who is
        going to declare war to Canada? Who wants Canada? Regarding
        the peace keeping thing it makes no sense at all,Canada it is
        already broke,full of debts,tell me why I should pay more
        taxes to buy "military"equipment,to show to the world that
        canadians cares about peace? Or to make happy fanatics military
        personnel? What they do for living? Are they producing?Or they
        are just parassites licenced to kill with the excuse of defending
        the peace etc.etc.
        Mr. Kyobe,open your eyes and look in wich nation are you living
        there are more serious problems to be resolved before playing
        war and peace.

    
    Of course, we could lick the boots of American Marines and ask them
    to save us from our agressors.
    
    
     

    Agressors from where,from the planet Paranoia in the galaxy of Fantasy?
    Don't worry the canadian governement is doing a very fine job licking
    the jankee as...and in case of necessity they will help Canada,after
    all they are saving big bucks in toilette paper.

    the only country that is a threat to Canada is the U.S. and we don't
    stand a hope in hell of stopping them.
    
    I'm afraid that we just at the worlds mercy..
    
    question for the military types...
    
    do you thinks that Canadian peace keeping forces should be involved in
    all these miriad of actions around the world ?
    
    how long have we been in cypress ?
    
    
    Brian V
    

    RE: US invading Canada.
    
    There was a book that came out in the late 70's by Richard Rohmer (in
    charge of the militia at some point I believe) called (I think)
    Exxoneration.  The premise was because Petro-Canada almost did a
    reverse takeover of Exxon, thereby putting US strategic
    interests/reserves at risk, they decide to kick some but.  Naturally
    the only butt that got kicked was the US.  It was fascinatnig reading
    (at the time anyways).  
    
    It can happen, and has happened (assted American-led military
    interventions in asstd latin countries.
    
    I know that if I wasn't attached, I'd volunteer in a second for
    military service to defend us from US agression.  You?
    
    Doug

    
    Well, if we have any hope at all of building more golf courses
    near graveyards,we had better keep some military around. The
    Surete is not near as well equipped as their adversaries.
    
    I think our biggest threats come from within. Remember what happened
    almost 25 years ago now, on October 16 1970.
    
    then there's the coming tax revolt to suppress....
    
    Pat

    Mr. Kyobe I think you've worked the night shift too long.
    

    I think you have not yet adjusted from the nightshift to dayshift sir
    Don't hesitate we still have a position for you.