Conference kaosws::canada

    Why?
    
    	Are you collecting welfare and working?
    
    Sean
    

    I have no intention of ever being on welfare, and I have no intention
    of giving my finger prints to the government for no apparent reason.
    
    Finger print the welfare people, fine. Leave the rest of us alone.
    
    Do you realize how much it would cost to get 11 million people finger
    printed? Maybe if they hired a few more workers to verify welfare claims
    we wouldn't need to finger print the whole province.

Here in Georgia (and some other states as well) they now require you to be
finger printed in order to renew your driver license.  Your prints are 
stored on a magnetic strip on the card (and stored in some database of course).

My license isn't up until 2000 and there is a puch to repeal the law.  Hopefully
it will be 'fixed' by then.

Dave

    I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

I don't either.

Ben

    re: Georgia, interesting, how long has fingerprinting been going on?
    Are there any advantages to having that large a fingerprint database?
    Do they use the finger print database for purposes outside of vehicle
    registration? and about how much do you pay to license a vehicle for a
    year in Georgia? In Ontario, it is going up to $74.00 (cdn), about
    $50.00 (u.s.) without the fingerprint cost.
    
    I'm not sure about this idea yet, I doubt it will cut down on crime if
    we were all fingerprinted as governments would lead us to believe.
    Also, I'm sure they will find a way to make us pay for it instead of
    making it pay for itself...
    

    According to a talk radio station here in CGO, Harris suggested that
    everybody in Ontario be fingerprinted to remove the stigma
    created by just fingerprinting welfare folks.
    
    Suggests the conservative red necks in Ontario are taking another
    page from the NDP book...

They slipped through the law last year at the last moment and a big cry 
went up from the masses.  The law's the law, so if you want to drive (legally)
you have to have your fingers scanned.  They claim this will cut down on
counterfeit licenses, but I wasn't aware we had such a big problem with that
down here....

Driver licesnes cost around $20 and last for 4 years.  Car registrations cost
around $25/yr plus whatever 'ad velorum' tax based on the age and price of the
car.  New cars ($25000+) can run you $400+ per year to register.  Older cars,
like the ones we have, cost about $2-3 (yes, two to three dollars) over the
base cost of $25.

When the year 2000 rolls around, I may be walking....

Dave

    get some physio therapy, with any luck you may be walking sooner!

    re. .6
    
    	I do remember New York city started finger printing welfare
    recipients a few years back. The reduction in the welfare rolls was
    around 25%. Also in Europe, this has been going on for years, and they
    seem to have no problem with it (stopping scam artists). 
    
    	Someone stated that we should only do it in the welfare cases, but
    what about our health care fraud problems. I think in a few years, due
    to the technological advances (on both sides of the law), we will have 
    to carry a special I.D. card, covering all our pieces of I.D. (DL,
    Birth certificate, SIN, etc). If a finger print is needed, then so be
    it. I would rather have to give a print than having someone else using my
    identity. I may not like it, much like I do not like carrying around 10
    pieces of I.D., but it may have to become a reality.
    
    Regards,
    
    Sean 

    > I have no intention of ever being on welfare, and I have no intention
    > of giving my finger prints to the government for no apparent reason.
    
    So what are you going to do when your number comes up in one of
    the upcoming DIGITAL downsizings?  Are you going to B&E on your 
    neighbours, steal cars, etc.?  I guess that would be a good reason 
    for not wanting your prints on record.
    
    > Do you realize how much it would cost to get 11 million people finger
    > printed?
    
    Do you have any idea on how much money could be saved on criminal 
    investigations if everyone's prints were on record?

    Yes pal, when I get laid off from Digital I will begin a life of crime.
    Obviously this is my only option. 

    How about this scenario:

    Somebody gets murdered in a room where you have recently been. Cops
    have no suspects or motive and no prints of criminals were found, but
    wait, look, your print was found on the telephone. My my, you're a
    suspect. Just so happens you were home that night, alone. Guess you
    have no alibi. Guess you need a lawyer.

    Tell me, does that leave you with a warm and fuzzy feeling? Oh, of
    course, you have nothing to worry about because you didn't do anything
    wrong and you trust in the justice system to exonerate you.

    Hey if this is for welfare fraud prevention, then let those on welfare
    give their prints. Leave the rest of us out of it.

    re:-1 fear mongering retoric, sorry, don't like your example. Are we
    all somehow safer today because the 'authorities' don't have all of our
    fingerprints on file? Are those of us who have been fingerprinted at
    risk? I don't think so Tim.
     Fingerprinting is mandatory for a lot of sites/security installations,
    thats no big deal. To me, its how they use the fingerprint database after,
    not the fact that they have them. Oh yeah, and I don't want to have to
    pay for it either, make it pay for itself somehow, I can think of
    several ways.
    
    rainy day in KAO...

    rhetoric.
    
    sorry, don't like your spelling.

    This is one of those finding the right balance between
    efficiency/convenience and personal privacy issues.
    
    Don't want the requirement for some secure ID system, then we'll have
    to do away with any government programs that can be abused ... health
    care, welfare, etc.  If this reduces abuse and helps to reign in costs
    then maybe we need to consider it.
    
    However after reading about the Morin case and the apparent miscarriage
    of justice, I'm not so sure the example given for abuse of fingerprints
    is that far fetched.  I don't want to get into a police bashing thread,
    but cases like Morin's and the shooting at Ipperwash reminds us that
    police screw up sometimes and you might be at the opposite end of the
    screwup!
    
    If you're worried about your privacy then I suggest you not use a
    credit card, an ATM or any other electronic form of payment.  Imagine
    the data collection gold mine you have in there if you wanted to track
    someone's activities and habits!
    
    
    

    I like there is some confusion here. Your finger print image will be
    stored on the card itself, when you give the card, there will be a
    thumb scanner which will match your print to the one on the card. That
    is it. I have already been finger printed, and I really have no
    worries. Having been a victim to a stolen credit card (2000 dollars
    charge) and stolen I.D., a finger print system would have stopped this.
    I really do not see a difference between welfare and health care fraud,
    they are the same, and cost all taxpayers money. Too many Americans
    have been taking advantage of Canada's health care system, and this has
    to stop. The telephone scenario is too far fetched and paranoid (are
    you a Freeman?).  
    
    Sean
    

    	I too have been finger printed, and have no worries of what they
    could do with it. (what could they really do anyways??). Having been a
    victim of credit card fraud ($2000 charged to me) and stolen I.D. (there
    is some guy in TO with the same name as me), a biometric identification
    system would have stopped this. I really do not see the difference
    between health care fraud and welfare fraud, both are fraud and are
    costing Ontario's taxpayers a considerable sum of money. Too many
    American's have been taking advantage of Canada's health care system,
    and this has to stop. There has been talk about right's to privacy, but
    there is not much we can in today's technological driven society. If
    you do not want a your finger prints taken then you better get rid of
    your Visa, because in the next two years biometric I.D. will become a norm
    in credit card transactions. The trade-off we have for convience must
    be balanced with security. I do not want some joker running up my
    credit card again, or using my health card or drivers licence. If it
    saves money and offers personal protection then I am for it.
    
    The telephone scenario is too far fetched (what court would convict you
    with prints on a telephone?) and has paranoia written all over it (are
    you a Freeman?).  
    
    Sean

    Secondly!!!!!!!!!
    
    It is quite interesting that someone brought up the Morin case. If
    Canada had a national DNA database at the time, chances are the real
    killer would be in jail and Morin would have never been charged. If you
    would have been on the jury you would have put Morin away too.
    Everything pointed to him doing it (more than finger prints on a
    phone), so much so that the lead investigator still believes he did it
    contrary to the DNA evidence (I think he believes there was an
    accomplice). Would you accept a national DNA database?
    
    Sean
     
    
    Sean

    no, I would not support yet another bureaucracy. It's a waste of money.

    No!!! More!!! Bureaucracy!!!!
    
    And I sure we could construct a few scenarios where a person
    accidently, legally, etc. leaves DNA samples in a spot that later 
    becomes a crime scene, resulting in a wrong conviction...
    
    Sure the probability (of a wrongful conviction) is small, but do you 
    want to be the one nailed?

    the fact is, most of the data will never ever be used. It's a waste of
    money. So you have millions of finger prints and millions of samples
    that all need to be stored and maintained.
    
    OK, I want on that gravy train, if it's going to happen.

    
    "stored and maintained" - sounds like a career path for someone...
    
    "I want on that gravy train" - you dog
    
     Anybody ever get their kids fingerprinted via the no-cost(?)
    "ident-a-child" program? Do you think your kids will thank you later?
    just wondering
    

    Do kids ever say "thank you"????

    
    sure, beat them until they do. Then you get fingerprinted and your
    little fingerprint record sits right beside your kids in that database
    that Richardson is going to maintain...
    
    another long but wet weekend ahead in KAO...

    I think we need an IQ registry in this province so we can know who all
    the dumb and smart people are and thus cross match prints with IQs so 
    the cops know if they're dealing with smart or dumb criminals. 

    DNA registry could be useful for determining tissue match for a rich
    person who needs a donor organ but can't find one. For the right price,
    a match could then easily be found and the organs can be extracted from
    an unsuspecting soul.

    "We're here to take you liver out."

    "But I'm still using it."

    "Don't muck us about! Is this you organ donor card?"

    Personally I don't see how being fingerprinted is that big of an
    invasion of privacy.
    You want an invasion of privacy, do an interview with the Perth O.p.p 
    or better yet apply for a bank loan! They know every financial move
    you've ever made!  To me thats a little more disturbing than taking
    samples of what the tips of my fingers look like.  I was fingerprinted
    a few years ago and never once have I been nervous that somehow I might
    be linked to the o.j murders.
    
    I thinks it's a good idea and damn it, if I'm allready in the system
    everyone else should be too!
    
    Keith
    

    I just get a bad feeling about the whole thing. Sure, fanacial records
    can be used as circumstantial evidence, but finger prints can place you
    at the scene of a crime. If they have no suspects they'll run every
    print they can lift, then everyone is a suspect.
    
    that just leaves me with a bad feeling.

    I'll agree it would be a big task to set up and start it rolling.
    Why not just eliminate welfare all together and cut everyone a big fat
    cheque at the end of the year from all the savings.
    Everyone who needs it could move to...say Calgary...start a workfare
    program there...they could shovel snow, then ship off to Winnipeg and
    remove sand bags, then to the west coast to clean up any oil spills the
    Americans might be responsible for.  8*)
    
    Keith.

    As an American (Citizen of the United States of America) I only spill
    oil in the Grand Canal in Sarnia, and I know you have never seen me do
    that.  I only go out during the dark of the moon, so I can see the
    northern lights.  
    
    Dave

    That oil spill was an honest mistake, the guy ordered a tanqueray on
    the rocks but was misunderstood.

    Sunken...not stirred
    
    
    
    k

    Valdez, another round over here!
    

    Fingerprints for everyone! I stand for it.
    earlier comments suggest, if they find your fingerprints at a 
    scene of a crime your a suspect.  
    Remember they have to prove your guilty, you don't have to prove
    your innocent.  If that is the case, D.N.A. test can be taken.
    with a print, soley, is insufficient evidence.
    The main case why they want to have everybody fingerprinted is
    because of the fraud that is going on.
    Millions of dollars are being stolen from taxpayers, from CHEATS of
    the system..Their is one case where one person was collecting 
    nine cheques under nine different names, for how long? how much money?
    Who else is doing this? to fix this when they pick up their cheque
    their print would be taken tomatch with the recorded print for 
    money dispersal, it don't match, you get no cash.
    This would save us taxpayers alone, millions of dollars.
    O.H.I.P. is another example one print will determine if you are abusing
    the system for prescription drugs etc....more millions.
    what about food banks...some abuse this, going from food bank to food
    bank, a print would register you, you get this amount of food, and
    don't come back to next month...
    there are so many examples...
    I feel Sean is right, our identification will be based soley on
    our prints in the near future, which i feel is good.
    the cost of starting up this system will be no where near the 
    savings us taxpayers will have...which will in turn cut taxes,
    promote job growth etc....
    Rik....

    Food banks???
    
    Well, next time maybe I'll think about tossing my Kraft Dinner into the
    food bank drop-off. :-)
    
    
    Sean
    

    Food-banks, welfare etc...are basically charity organizations,
    some deal with money, and others deal with the goodness of sharing,
    no matter what the function, fingerprints will play the main role
    in taking out scammers.
    Rik...
    
    P.s.  Sean, these people, I have seen, worked with, some are
          unfortunate others unwilling. No matter the case,
          these are real people, one cannot judge the character
          until he/she has experienced it themselves.
    

    Ricky,
    
    	kind of funny that I have not seen you down at the 301 Bank drop-in
    center ever, you must have worked the nights I was off. The whole point 
    is to not judge their character, hence the word CHARITY. I will though
    propose at the next quaterly meeting to issue a finger printing system
    on the needle exchange policy review. Damn needle scammers! 
    
    Richardson, Rick does add fuel to your points. I'll have to review my
    current position on the whole damn thing!
    
    Sean
    

    Sean:
    i never said I went down to that certain food-bank,
    there spread all over the city, anyways.
    with the needles well that another story...
    See, i knew you would agree.
    Rik...
    

    Give the needy a social assistance card complete with PIN so they can
    withdraw the money they need at bank machines and display it for other
    assistance programs. Super idea this is. No finger prints required and
    no need to pester the 9 million or so other people who don't need one.

    > .......Super idea this is. No finger prints required and
    
    Yeah, really brilliant. But it still won't stop them from doing
    what they do now and apply at multiple Social Services offices and
    get several cards and there would still be no way to tell if they
    have a legal job on the side too.
    
    Yup, bright really bright
    
    
    Robin

    Hmmm, isn't a social insurance number required? Or are these also
    obtained fraudulently?

    what's to stop me from applying for multiple driver's licenses?

    The information to eliminate fraud is already there. Piles of it. It
    requires organization and cooperation between governments and agencies.

    if people are working jobs under the table, finger printing will not
    stop this anymore than it could stop them from doing anything else that
    is illegal.

    Re. SINs
    
    	Like I said before, there was a dude in T.O. using my stolen I.D.
    The funny part was he was in the same union as me, and applied for
    health care benifits. Damn SIN number! 
    
    D.L's When is was 17, friends of mine (wink wink) use to assume a 19 yrs
    old buddies name, take some of his non-photo I.D. to D.L. bureau, and
    apply for the D.L. You would then have a fool proof illegal I.D. saying
    you were 19 with your picture on it. Then the 19 yr would wait a week and 
    go back to the bureau to apply again for a new licence. It was too
    easy. Of course the Ontario government now keeps digitized photos on
    the computers now, so the scam does not work anymore. The point is if a
    couple of 17 yr olds can scam the government that easily, then it must
    not be too hard for a professional guy. 
    
    Lets hope a smart-card is at least in the works.
    
    
    Sean
    
    	

    Re. .38
    
    Buffalo Bob Rae was premier so I think Richardson has a chance to win. 
    
    Sean

    
    There is another recent case of a guy from Smith Falls, Ont.,  who was
    murdered in the States a couple weeks ago. It took awhile to track him down
    because he was using a fake drivers license, he had a photocopied one
    from a fellow who had applied to work for him because his own license
    was suspended. He was a 'professional' trucker! Not a professional
    forger or anything.
     I went to high school with a guy who was quite proud of his 3 drivers
    licenses but that was >20 years ago, much easier to get back then.
    
    "buffalo Richardson" as a slogan might work out West but I don't know
    about here in Ontario, buffalo is a foreign beast around here these
    days...

    Well, I'm against setting up a whole new system when just a little bit
    of cross funtional double checking would probably eliminate a lot of
    the fraud that goes on. 3% according to the government.
    
    If finger prints will be required, what will happen to Jack? You know,
    the guy with no arms and no legs living in the trunk of your car?

    re: .43  :-) :-) :-)

    I mentioned this to Art, the guy with no arms and no legs hanging on my
    wall, and he told me that if he could, he'd give Mike Harris the finger.