Conference kaosws::canada

    
    	Sounds like you have the same problem we have here in the states,
    plenty of laws and no enforcement.  

    Joe

It's too bad Rock came into power with a hidden agenda to appease the 
anti's.  Your right by saying that the courts aren't doing their jobs under
the current legislation. It's not just gun control laws that they are lax
on either. The whole judical system should be reviewed since crime rates
are increasing. Check your local paper. Each week you read articals about
families and friends of victims comment on how leaniant sentences are
for the crimes committed.

I'm not sure stiffer legislation is the answer? Registration of guns 
definately isn't? 

Banning handguns? There were already tight restrictions on handling
these weapons. 

There are two articles that come to mind about the underground gun trade
in Canada. One was an Ottawa Sun reporter who went a couple of nights
to local watering holes to find if he could purchase a handgun. He had 
quite a few good leads and was successful. The other article was about
a citizen in NY state which was un-employed but has a gun dealers permit.
He sells the guns out of the country to gun-runners from Cornwall. He makes
astronomical profits from this. So will tighting gun control solve this?

The police departments in Ontario seem to think they can solve the problems
now. They have just upgraded their weapons to semi-auto's with 15 shot clips.

Now they want to use hollow point bullets. In my mind this is just a license
to kill. The damage done to the human body will be immense. They should
only be used by tactical squads. Why the change to hollow points? The reason
given was that the solid point bullets would pass through the body of the victim
and kill innocent by-standers. I'd like to see the stats on this one. I know
if I was an innocent by-stander the only way I would be hit was either by
a stray bullet or they were shooting at the suspects feet. 

	Allan

    
    IMO the latest legislation by Alan Rock will cost BIG BIG bucks,
    require a very large computer (Maybe DIGITAL?) to register
    2 million owners of 10 million firearms, and criminals will drill
    off the numbers on their stolen/illegal guns anyway. Cops will
    be no safer in entering dwellings after full registration than they
    were before. And enforcement will continue to be a problem, while
    police are diverted from their primary duties.
    
    This new gun law package, in combination with the upcoming federal
    budget, spells political suicide for the Federal Liberal Party.
    
    Pat

No. No. It won't cost tax payers a cent for the new system.

The fees I heard were $100-$120 / gun to register.
If you decide to sell your gun it will cost another $30+ for administration
costs. If you don't register your guns it will be a criminal offence.

Then instead of carring just your hunting licence now you will be required
to carry a minimum of 2 other peices for pocession of a gun and registration
of the equipment. When you register you will be categorized as to what
type of gun owner you are. This will help you become a suspect in any
gun related crimes in your neighborhood.

Read in yesterday's paper where the PM will expell any MP from cabinet if
they vote against the new legislation. Gee I guess the people  those MP's
represent don't count. Democracy?

It seems the people against the new legislation is joining the Liberal party.
The Liberal parties comments to this is that they don't want single issue
membership. Gee, this is something the anti's have been doing for years.

Does anyone know what the stats are for crime committed with guns in
Canada? How many of those crimes were committed by people that own an
FAC? Had they every used a gun before? My guess is that less than 10% had
went through the FAC requirements and less than 20% had ever pulled a trigger
before.

Why is suicide figured into the crime statistics?
I know committing suicide is a crime but really how many people are charged 
for taking thier own lives?

	Aunty Anti

    I'm sorry to say but the vast majority of gun crimes are committed by
    the legal owners of said firearms against members of their families,
    your chances of being shot by your spouse are an order of magnitude
    greater than being shot by a stranger. I don't have the exact stats
    handy right now as I'm in the US but the difference is staggering, this
    is true in the US as well outside the "inner cities" of LA and DC. In
    either case your chance of death by drowning in 5 minutes of canoeing 
    exceeds your chances of death by crime for your entire life. 
    
    I'm not sure that the proposed new law does much to change that
    situation despite Mr. Rock's statements that this is one of the two
    thrusts of the legislation.
     
    The second thrust is cutting off the trickle of guns to the street from
    so called collectors. It's unfortunate that all of the legitimate 
    sportsmen out there are going to be made to pay the price for a long 
    history of loose practices in record keeping and safe storage by a few bad 
    importers, dealers and collectors. 
    
    I'm for more gun control, I'm still waffling over this bill, it might
    go too far.  

    
    It has been said by many that if the general public was aware
    of what laws were already on the the books, and how poorly they
    were enforced, there is no way on earth this bill could pass,
    assuming we are still in a democracy (which is doubtful).
    
    I'm content to sit back and watch the Grits form their noose and
    slip it over their heads. For the first time in Canadian history
    Canada has an organized gun lobby, but is that a good thing? I'm
    not sure. Certainly this country will not be the same.
    
    Does anyone know if Allan Rock is related to Daniel Rock, a lawyer
    in Mulroneys cronies?
    
    Re Norm: I think you are referring to the US stats that refer to
    shooting victims knowing or living with the shooter. What those
    stats don't tell is they count drug related shootings where two
    dealers or dealer/customer knew each other. We all know what happens
    to customers who don't pay their bill, don't we?
    
    Pat

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SUBPAC::SADIN "One if by LAN, two if by C"         1199 lines  11-FEB-1995 09:49
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[EDITOR'S NOTE: THIS IS A DOCUMENT ISSUED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF
JUSTICE IN OTTAWA, CANADA, DESCRIBING THE PROPOSED NEW CANADIAN
FIREARMS REGULATIONS.  THESE REGULATIONS WILL BE DISCUSSED IN
PARLIAMENT IN FEBRUARY 1995.  
     THIS DOCUMENT HAS BEEN ELECTRONICALLY SCANNED AND THEN
EDITED TO REFLECT THE LAYOUT OF THE ORIGINAL.]
=================================================================

                         || w ||   Department of Justice
                                   Canada

                                   Ministere de la Justice
                                   Canada






                         The Government's
                              Action Plan
                              on Firearms Control










         
                              Canada
=================================================================





                              The Government's
                                   Action Plan
                                   on Firearms Control
         









=================================================================

















Published by authority of the Minister of Justice
and Attorney General of Canada
Government of Canada

by

Communications and Consultation
Department of Justice Canada
Ottawa, Ontario
KlA 0H8

(613) 957-4222

JUS-669E




Graphic Design: Jacques Charette et Associes Ltee

c Minister of Public Works and Government Services Canada 1994
Printed in Canada
=================================================================

                         TABLE OF CONTENTS
 
INTRODUCTION ................................................ 1
 
I    BANNED FIREARMS AND FURTHER CONTROLS ................... 2
 
     Introduction ........................................... 2
 
     Prohibition of Certain Handguns ........................ 2
 
     Other Handgun Controls ................................. 3
 
     Controls on Military and Para-military Firearms .......  4
 
     Controls on Weapons other than Firearms ................ 5
 

II   CRIMINAL PENALTIES & PROHIBITION MEASURES .............. 6
 
     Introduction ........................................... 6
 
     Use of Firearms to Commit Offences (S.85 and others) ... 6
 
     Trafficking Offences ................................... 7
 
     Unauthorized/Unregistered Possession ................... 8
 
     Other Offences, Proceeds of Crime....................... 8
 
     PROHIBITION MEASURES .................. ................ 9
 
          Introduction ...................................... 9
          Military Personnel ................................ 9
          Young Offenders ................................... 9
          Stalking and Drug Offences ....................... 10
          "Proactive" Orders ............................... 10
          Partial Prohibition for Sustenance................ 10
 
                         i
=================================================================

III  BORDER CONTROLS ...................................  11

     Introduction ...... ...............................  11

     Import/Export and Registration ....................  11

     Offences and Penalties ............................  12

 
IV   REGISTRATION ......................................  13

     Introduction ......................................  13

     Entering the System - the Screening of Applicants .  13

     The Advantages of Universal Registration...........  14

     Transitional and Implementation Provisions.........  15

     Identification of Firearms and Owners..............  15

     Screening and Access Requirements .................  16

     Controls on Ammunition.............................  17

     Responsibility for System Operation................  17

     Police and Military Firearms ......................  17

     Local Advisory Council ............................  18
 
                         ii
=================================================================

INTRODUCTION
 
     The purpose of this document is to describe the legislative
intentions of the Government of Canada in relation to firearms
control in this country. It reflects decisions that have been
made by Cabinet. It is being tabled in the House of Commons
because the actual legislation is still in preparation, and will
not be introduced until it is ready in February.
 
     There is a long history in Canada of regulating the safe use
and ownership of firearms. As early as 1877, justices of the
peace were allowed to jail people in possession of a handgun
without reasonable cause. Criminal Code controls have existed
since 1892 when the first nation-wide permit system for the
carrying of small arms was created. The registration of handguns
began in 1932. The law was amended in 1969, 1976-77 and 1991 and
reflects three fundamental policies: the deterrence of the
misuse of firearms, general controls on persons given access to
firearms and controls placed on specific types of firearms.
 
     The decisions announced in this document have built on that
history to achieve a comprehensive package of reforms. Through
this package, the Government will be banning many firearms,
cracking down on the criminal misuse of firearms, targeting
firearms smuggling and improving public safety by promoting the
safe use and ownership of firearms. Essential to these measures
is a new national firearms registration system that will provide
the foundation for effective border controls, enhanced criminal
investigations and police work, and the enforcement of safety
standards for firearms owners.
 
     The Government intends to give legal force to this program
by introducing legislation in February to amend the Criminal
Code, Customs Act, Customs Tariff, Export and Import Permits
Act, National Defence Act, Young Offenders Act, and related
statutes and regulations.

     Specifically, the government will proceed with:

o    amendments and programs for controlling the import, export
and domestic transit of firearms;
 
o    amendments to the offence and sentencing provisions of the
Criminal Code relating to the misuse of firearms, including
mandatory minimum sentence provisions;
 
o    the prohibition of specified firearms and expansion of the
authority to prohibit by Order in Council;
 
o    amendments to the Criminal Code and other statutes requiring
the registration and tracking of all firearms and their owners;

=================================================================

                         - 2 -

o    other necessary or consequential amendments to the Criminal
Code and other statutes to simplify and clarify the legislation,
and to improve cost-effectiveness at the federal, provincial and
municipal levels.


I    BANNED FIREARMS AND FURTHER CONTROLS
 
Introduction
 
     Firearms that are particularly dangerous and/or have no
legitimate uses will be prohibited under the proposed changes.
Handguns are of special concern because they are small and easy
to conceal. They are also subject to regular theft and are the
preferred weapon for offences such as armed robbery. Those
identified for prohibition are compact, low-calibre weapons,
easily concealed and often cheaply-made, and are not considered
suitable for organized target-shooting. Numbers affected are
about 58% of the handguns presently owned in Canada. Existing
owners will be allowed to keep (but not transfer) handguns,
provided that they meet the same statutory criteria as other
owners. Assault pistols will be prohibited completely.
 
     Just over 1.2 million restricted weapons are presently in
the hands of Canadians, about 1.15 million of them handguns. Nine
hundred and fifty thousand handguns are registered to about
560,000 private individuals. Registration is limited to specific
reasons, and most handguns are registered either for
target-shooting (48%), or for gun collections (21%). However,
only about 55,000 Canadians have carry permits to take a handgun
to a shooting club for use, which suggests that a large number
of handguns remain in the possession of Canadians who no longer
use them for the purpose for which they were acquired and
registered. Many owners have not fired their handguns within the
previous year, and many of these have not done so within the
previous five years. Handguns may only be registered for
personal protection in the most extreme circumstances and
numbers actually registered for that purpose are very small.


Prohibition of certain handguns
 
     Several handguns based on submachinegun designs are being
immediately prohibited by being added to the existing Prohibited
Weapons List by Order in Council. Owners of these
"assault pistols" are being given until January 1, 1995 to turn
them in to the police, deactivate or otherwise dispose of them.
Most assault pistols were prohibited in 1992 because they are
particularly dangerous, but several new models have since been
identified. There are not many of these firearms in Canada.

=================================================================

                         - 3 -
 
     Small, compact, low-calibre handguns that are easily
concealed and often cheaply-made, and are not considered to be
suitable for organized target-shooting--sometimes described as
"pocket pistols" or "Saturday-night specials"--will be
prohibited by an amendment that will expand the statutory
definition of "prohibited weapon" to include them. These include
all .25 and .32 calibre handguns, as well as all handguns with a
barrel length of 105mm (4.14") or less.
 
     Such handguns are produced primarily for use as weapons, and
lack the accuracy needed for competitive target shooting. Many
are produced with barrels exactly 4" long, so the minimum length
has been set slightly over that figure to include them. This
category of handgun is substantial. Fifty-eight per cent of all
handguns currently registered in Canada fall into the categories
now banned (553,000 of 1.15 million). This includes about 40,500
.25 calibre guns, about 173,500 .32 calibre guns, and about
339,500 guns with barrels 105mm or shorter. Those who have these
firearms registered when this measure is passed into law will be
allowed to retain them for the remainder of their lives, subject
to the controls described below, but not to transfer them.


Other Handgun Controls
 
     Handguns, like all restricted weapons, can only be
registered for specific purposes (eg: employment, collecting or
target-shooting) but, under the present system, remain registered
even if no longer needed for those purposes. The new law will
require registrants to re-establish their reason for having their
weapons every five years, failing which they will have to
transfer or dispose of them. Since unregistered or unauthorized
possession is an offence, the amendments will also provide for
the advance notification of registrants prior to expiry, and
afford a "grace period" for the disposal of restricted firearms.
 
     Gun collecting is difficult to define and regulate. This is
an issue of concern because gun collecting is the only basis
permitted by law for possessing many non-sporting/military
firearms, and because the difficulty in distinguishing between
legitimate collectors and others leaves the category open to
abuse. At present, collector status is determined by a local
firearms registrar, who must indicate on each application
whether the applicant is a genuine collector. To place further
controls and national standardization on this practice, the
determination of whether an applicant was a "genuine gun
collector" within the definition will be made by a new (federal)
Registrar of Firearms. He or she will act on advice and
information provided by the local firearms officer to whom the
application was made and according to uniform national
standards. In addition, collections will be inspected at least
once every five years, and will be subject to additional
regulations.
 
     A firearm safety course is currently required for all
Firearms Acquisition Certificate applicants. The proposed
changes would add a separate course 

=================================================================

                         - 4 -

program for applicants for handguns and other restricted
firearms. This would reflect the additional safety concerns and
legal obligations for restricted weapons. It would also allow
some reduction in the content of the existing courses.
 
     Shooting clubs require provincial approval before their
members can register restricted weapons for target-shooting on
their premises. The proposed changes will establish regulatory
requirements for the setting up and operation of shooting clubs
and the activities which can be carried on there. These will
include requirements for membership, record-keeping, national
certification or affiliation, safety standards for constructing
and operating firing-ranges, and similar matters. Obtaining
provincial approval will require compliance with the
regulations, and approval will be revoked where standards are
not maintained. A handgun owner seeking renewal of registration
for target shooting purposes will need to demonstrate active
membership in an approved club. The new law will require the
keeping of records that will make it possible to establish that
fact.

     Currently, a restricted weapon may be registered by any
person 18 years of age or older on the basis that it is a
"relic", which is defined by regulation as a "souvenir" or
"keepsake". These provisions, often used in the past to register
war-trophies, will be repealed, along with the corresponding
regulations. This is consistent with the overall direction of
these measures which is to limit carefully the reasons for
having a handgun in private possession. Those who have
restricted weapons registered as relics will be allowed to keep
them until the end of their lives, but no transfers or further
registrations will be permitted.

 
Controls on military and para-military firearms
 
     Most military or paramilitary rifles and shotguns were
prohibited or restricted by Order in Council in 1992. Other
versions may be either non-restricted or restricted by the
statute itself, depending on technical characteristics (e.g.
barrel length). About 50-60,000 rifles and shotguns are already
registered as restricted weapons.
 
     Currently, weapons cannot be prohibited by Order in Council
if they are "commonly used" for hunting or sporting purposes. In
recent years, there has been a major growth in shooting
competitions using military and paramilitary firearms which has
meant that it has become increasingly difficult to use the
present law in the way that was intended. Therefore, the law
will be amended to permit the Governor in Council to prohibit
weapons if it is of the opinion that they are "not reasonable"
for use in hunting or for sporting purposes. 

=================================================================

                         - 5 -

     Once this authority is in place, additional weapons will be
prohibited, including the Ruger "Mini-14" firearm -- used in the
1989 Ecole Polytechnique murders -- and the Colt AR-15 -- the
"civilian" version of the U.S. Army M-16 assault rifle. Those who
own these weapons will be able to keep them for life, but will
not be allowed to transfer them.
 
     A number of currently restricted weapons are being declared
prohibited effective January 1, 1995 through Order in Council.
These include: all variants of the Kalashnikov (AK-47, AK-74)
assault rifle not already prohibited as automatic weapons, the
FN-FAL and its variants, as well as a number of other
paramilitary and military firearms. Once again, those who own
such firearms at present will be able to keep them until they
die, but not to transfer them.
 
     A number of firearms that are not used for any sporting
purposes will be prohibited effective January 1, 1995, with no
right to keep them. These include variants of the Intratec
"Tec-9" assault pistol not already prohibited, the Franchi
"Spas-15" combat shotgun, the Benelli "M-1", "M-3", "B-4" and
"B-4B" combat shotguns, any variants or modified versions of
those firearms as well as several others.
 
     The provision which authorizes Attorneys General to
designate competitions for which large capacity magazines may be
used and to certify individuals who may be permitted to possess
these magazines for such purposes will be repealed.
 

Controls on weapons other than firearms
 
     The misuse of replica or imitation firearms will be
addressed by including them within the present Criminal Code
(s.85) offence and minimum sentencing provision, and through a
ban on manufacture, import and sale.
 
     Crossbows will be dealt with by subjecting them to the same
screening controls as firearms, and bringing them within the
provisions for court prohibition orders. Compact or single-hand
crossbows, which have no legitimate recreational applications or
historical importance, will be prohibited by Order in Council
effective January 1, 1995.
 
     Airguns are already "firearms" for the purposes of offence
provisions, but only require licenses if above a minimum muzzle
velocity (500 ft, or 152.4m per second). Concerns about injuries
and property damage have been raised, but some airguns are used
for legitimate shooting activities. Over the coming months, the
government will consult public health groups, firearms groups and
other interested parties to identify effective and appropriate
methods of reducing the health and safety risk associated with
airguns. 
=================================================================

                         - 6 -
 
     Flexibility to control access to other weapons, such as
capsicum "tear gas' sprays, will be created by splitting the
existing category of "restricted weapon" into "restricted weapon"
and "restricted firearm". The first class would contain only non-
firearms, for which a permit would be required, while the second,
dealing with firearms, would be subject to the full registration
requirements.
 

II   CRIMINAL PENALTIES & PROHIBITION MEASURES
 
Introduction
 
     Criminal misuse of firearms will be addressed through a
number of measures, including the creation of new, hard-hitting
offences and penalties. Longer minimum sentences are proposed
for use of firearms in the commission of specified serious
offences. New offences and stiff penalties relating to
trafficking and illegal possession are also proposed, as are
expansions to the powers of the courts to prohibit persons from
possessing firearms.
 

Use of firearms to commit offences (Criminal Code s.85 and
others)
 
     The Criminal Code will be amended to enhance the deterrence
of crimes committed with firearms and other offensive weapons;
expand the term "firearm" in s. 85 of the Crimit1al Code to
include imitation firearms; and apply a longer unified mandatory
minimum sentence where violent offences are committed using a
firearm.
 
     Section 85 of the Criminal Code provides for a minimum one
year sentence for using a firearm to commit an indictable
offence.  This sentence is to be served consecutively to the
sentence for the underlying offence. Although it was intended as
a strong deterrent measure to discourage the use of firearms in
crime, there is evidence that s. 85 is not achieving its
purpose. Recent research by the Justice Department suggests the
following:
 
o    In up to 2/3 of the cases where s. 85 charges are laid,
convictions do not result since the charges are either dismissed,
stayed or withdrawn by the prosecutor. Reasons include
evidentiary or other problems and plea negotiation.
 
o    It is difficult to prove that the weapon used was a real
"firearm" (a requirement under s. 85) unless it is discharged or
the accused is caught in the act and it is seized.
 
o    The most common underlying offence was armed robbery (62% of
cases). 
=================================================================

                         - 7 -
 
o    Sentences tend to be at the minimum end of the 1-14 year
range, averaging about 16.4 months, which is in addition to the
punishment imposed for the underlying offence.
 
o    Some judges apply the "totality principle", reducing the
sentence for the underlying offence because of the s.85 term.
 
     Rather than increasing the length of the term to be served
under s. 85, the new law will propose a different approach.
Section 85 will be retained as a general provision, and (as
mentioned) expanded to include the use of an imitation firearm.
New sections will be added, providing that when a person is
alleged to have committed certain serious offences with a
firearm, mandatory minimum sentences of four years in prison
will be imposed -- in addition to a mandatory lifetime
prohibition from possessing a restricted weapon, This will apply
to the following 10 violent offences committed with a firearm:
 
o    attempted murder (s.239),
o    manslaughter (s.236),
o    criminal negligence causing death (s.220),
o    robbery (s.344),
o    kidnapping (s.279),
o    hostage-taking (s.279.1),
o    sexual assault with a weapon (s.272),
o    aggravated sexual assault (s.273),
o    extortion (s.346),
o    discharge firearm with intent to cause harm etc.(s.244).

     In addition to these changes to the law, more will be done
to encourage police, prosecutors and the courts to use these
provisions effectively. Provincial Attorneys General have already
been asked to urge prosecutors to use s.85 effectively and many
have developed prosecutorial guidelines to this effect.

 
Trafficking offences (firearms and ammunition) and punishments
 
     Offences relating to illegal transfers of firearms will be
reinforced and condensed into new offences to support the
proposed firearm registration system. The range of offences
includes large-scale criminal trafficking, possession for the
purposes of trafficking and relatively minor situations where a
firearm is transferred without the proper acquisition or
registration documents. For this reason, there will be no
minimum punishment applied to summary prosecution cases; the
normal maximum penalties of 6 months or a $2,000 fine will
apply. A minimum punishment of one year will apply where the
offence is prosecuted on indictment.  Where the person receiving
the firearm does not obtain the necessary permits, a five year
maximum punishment would apply with no specified minimum. 

=================================================================

                         - 8 -
 
     On a first indictable conviction for any of these offences,
a court could, at its discretion, prohibit the offender from
possessing any firearms for up to 10 years. On a subsequent
indictable conviction, a mandatory prohibition order would be
imposed prohibiting the offender from owning a restricted firearm
for life and any other firearm for 10 years.
 
     Additional offences of possessing stolen or smuggled
firearms will be created and made punishable by a mandatory
minimum term of imprisonment of one year, when proceeded with by
indictment.
 
     An offence of transferring ammunition to any person under
 18, except the holder of a minors' permit, will be moved from
the Explosives Regulations, and the transfer or acquisition of
ammunition where the purchaser does not have proof of
registration under the new system will become a Criminal Code
offence. The use of other identification prescribed by
regulation will also be allowed until the registration system is
fully implemented.

 
Unauthorized/unregistered possession of firearms
 
     To deter illegal possession of firearms, restricted or
prohibited weapons, several new offences will be created. One of
these will be applicable in cases where the accused is in
possession of any firearm not authorized by a permit or
certificate, or where the accused is authorized, but the firearm
has not been registered. This offence will apply in cases where
the breach of the possession or registration requirements was,
or might have been, inadvertent. It will be punishable on
summary conviction by a maximum $2,000 fine and six months in
jail, or on indictment by up to five years' imprisonment.
 
     A second, more serious offence will apply in the same
factual circumstances, but where the accused knew that he or she
did not have the necessary registration or authorization, and
intentionally evaded these requirements. Where knowledge or
intent was proven, the new offence will also require a minimum
one year sentence on the second conviction.
 
     Finally, anyone who, without the necessary permits, carries
a restricted or prohibited firearm when it is loaded, or when
there is ammunition readily accessible, commits an offence
punishable by a one year mandatory minimum prison term, if
prosecuted on indictment.

 
Other offences, "proceeds of crime" provisions
 
     Other specific offences proposed include failing to report
losses or thefts of firearms, and making false or misleading
reports in that regard. Smuggling, 
=================================================================

                         - 9 -
 
trafficking and related conspiracy offences will also be added to
the list of "enterprise crime offences" in Part X11.2 of the
Criminal Code, making possible the confiscation of property, such
as vehicles, as "proceeds and instruments of crime".
 

PROHIBITION MEASURES
 
Introduction
 
     Section 100 of the Criminal Code requires the courts to
impose a minimum 10 year prohibition on the possession of
firearms for those convicted of a serious offence involving the
use, the threat or an attempt of violence or a s.85 offence of
using a firearm to commit an indictable offence. Courts are also
required to consider prohibitions up to 10 years for less
serious violent offences and other firearms offences, and may
prohibit even if no offence has been committed where an
application is made by police and a danger to safety exists. The
1991 amendments doubled the lengths of prohibition orders and
provided limited discretion not to make mandatory orders in
exceptional cases. The new provisions will impose a mandatory
lifetime prohibition against possession of a restricted firearm
when an individual is convicted of a listed, serious, violent
offence and will include the authority to impose prohibition
orders in other circumstances. 

Military Personnel
 
     Prohibition orders apply to Criminal Code convictions, but
do not extend to the National Defence Act, which uses Criminal
Code offences but has its own punishment provisions. The
National Defence Act and the Criminal Code would be amended to
create discretionary powers for Courts Martial to prohibit
offenders. In addition, military courts would have the option of
prohibiting the accused except in the course of duties as a
member of the Canadian Forces, in order to avoid the automatic
discharge of every member who is prohibited. The Criminal Code
amendment would deem military prohibitions to be Criminal Code
prohibitions, so that civilian authorities could enforce the
orders and continue them even if the subject leaves the Canadian
Forces before the order expires.
 

Young Offenders
 
     Prohibition orders are available to youth courts, but are
discretionary instead of mandatory. The proposal would amend the
Young Offenders Act to subject young offenders to the same
firearms prohibitions as adults for a given offence. The general
policy of the Young Offenders Act is to mitigate the punishment
of young offenders for reasons of diminished capacity and
prospects for rehabilitation. These policy objectives are not
affected by lack of access to a firearm. Other changes would
allow access to records or other information protected by the
Young 
=================================================================

                         - 10 -

Offenders Act where an offender later seeks to obtain a firearm,
or where the Crown is seeking to seize firearms or deny access
to them. 

"Stalking" and drug offences
 
     The 1993 "stalking" (criminal harassment) offence provides
specific powers to prohibit persons released on bail from
possessing a firearm, but those convicted are subject only to
discretionary prohibition under s.100(2). The 1991 amendments
extended prohibitions to drug smuggling and trafficking offences,
but on a discretionary basis only. The expansion of
narcotics-related prohibition orders was a Liberal Party "Red
Book" campaign commitment. The proposed changes would extend
mandatory prohibitions to those convicted or released on bail
for all of these offences, except where the court finds that
access to a firearm would not endanger the safety of any person
(including the subject him/herself), and provides reasons why
prohibition was not imposed.
 

"Proactive" orders, co-habitants or associates.
 
     Proactive prohibition orders may now be made where there is
a danger to any person, but no offence has been committed. Under
this proposal, the grounds for firearm seizures and prohibitions
will beexpanded to include danger arising from the reasonable
likelihood that a prohibited person who resides or associates
with the subject will have access to a firearm. The order will
be limited to the length of the order made against the associate
or co-resident, and a person subject to such an order could seek
relief where the conditions under which it was made no longer
applied. This would make it possible to prohibit, if necessary,
an entire household from having firearms where any single
resident was dangerous and prohibited from possessing a firearm.
 

Partial prohibition for "sustenance" firearm users

      Prohibition orders can create exceptional hardship for a
person who requires a firearm for sustenance. Limited discretion
not to prohibit in such cases was added to the statute in the
1991 amendments, but the change gave the courts only an "all or
nothing" power to prohibit completely, or make no order at all.
The proposed amendment would create an additional option of
partial prohibitions to allow limited access for use in hunting
or trapping. Courts could make an order fit the specific
circumstances of the accused where the accused would face
exceptional hardships otherwise and public safety is not
endangered. This change will allow courts to take account of
traditional aboriginal lifestyles. 
=================================================================

                         - 11 -
 
III  BORDER CONTROLS
 
Introduction
 
     Canada's relatively strict legislation and the easier
availability of firearms in the United States raise concerns
about smuggling, and past Parliamentary committees and the
Auditor General of Canada have both recommended legislative and
administrative controls. Thus, tighter border controls and
inspection procedures are proposed, the costs of which will be
recovered from firearms importers and exporters. Modern
data-processing and telecommunications technology will be used
to reduce administrative costs. The measures include the
tracking of firearms under a national registration system, new offence
provisions, and the forfeiture of vehicles used in smuggling,
shipments containing contraband, and proceeds of smuggling and
illegal trafficking. A number of measures have already been taken
by Canada Customs under existing powers to increase surveillance
and seize illegal imports.
 

Import/export and the proposed registration system
 
     Existing import-export controls are based on the premise
that firearms are a commodity, and subject to the same trade
controls (e.g. taxes and duties) as other commodities. The
proposed changes include a fundamental re-orientation of this
approach, by recognizing that firearm imports also have
important consequences in terms of public safety and
crime-control. For every firearm that enters or leaves Canada,
the person responsible will be required to have either an
import/export permit for commercial use, or a Customs
declaration for personal use, so that the movement of all
firearms crossing the border can be tracked. The issuance
procedure for commercial permits will ensure that crime-control,
trade and foreign-policy interests are all considered.
 
     The permits and declarations will form the first stage in
the registration of imported firearms, allowing Canada to
accurately monitor the types and quantities of weapons which
flow through the country. Import declarations and permits will
only be issued to individuals and companies who have the
necessary permits to possess the firearms while they are in
Canada. The costs and scrutiny involved will discourage the use
of Canada as a "touch-down" point for those using multiple
transfers to mask the source of illegal shipments or to avoid
foreign end-user controls.
 
     Commercial and personal imports or exports will be treated
differently. For personal use firearms, the owner will obtain a
Customs declaration form at the border, from any Canada Customs
facility in Canada or abroad or from tourist businesses and/or
hunting outfitters. The completed form will identify the owner
and the firearm, and will be used to record the entry or exit of
the firearm when it occurs. 
=================================================================

                         - 12 -
 
     Where a non-Canadian brings the gun into Canada, the
declaration, once stamped by Customs at the border, will also
serve as a temporary permit to possess the firearm for up to 60
days.  Additional permits will still be required for restricted
weapons.
 
     Commercial and other imports or exports will require a
permit, available only to applicants who already have the
appropriate Canadian business permit for the type(s) of firearm
involved. No export permit will be issued unless the applicant
has a permit to import the firearms into the recipient country.
Shipments into Canada will be inspected to ensure that the
registry information is accurate, and firearms will be tracked
until they leave Canada or are registered to a private owner.
 
     The import inspection and registration process will be
operated by Canada Customs officials who will ensure that
accurate information is entered into the registration system as
firearms enter or leave Canada. In the commercial context, they
will also conduct inspections of firearms to control and deter
careless or dishonest labelling or packing of shipments. The
costs involved will be recovered from the importer or exporter
involved, and automated pre-clearance options will allow
importers to minimize costs where possible without compromising
the integrity of the information. To further reduce costs and
improve the quality of inspections, commercial shipments will be
required to enter Canada at a limited number of inspection
points where trained inspectors will be available.
 
     The Export and Import Permits Act authorizes Orders in
Council barring strategic exports where the export would raise
security concerns for Canada, but not where the concerns relate
to the public safety of another country. The proposed amendment
will create a new delegated authority to include these
situations. Where a foreign government asks, and the export
would create public safety problems abroad, firearm exports from
Canada could be quickly stopped by Order in Council. The orders
would be made on a joint submission from the Attorney General of
Canada and the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
 

Offences and penalties
 
     The existing Criminal Code offence provisions in relation to
smuggling and other border offences will be revised and combined.
An import-export permit for commercial use, or a Customs
declaration for personal use, will be required for all
transactions, and any import or export without these documents
will be an offence under the new provisions. The offence will
carry a mandatory minimum of one year imprisonment, if
prosecuted on indictment, and the same prohibition orders as
apply to trafficking offences will also apply here. Possessing a
smuggled or stolen firearm will also become a new offence,
punishable by a minimum one-year term, where prosecuted on
indictment. 
=================================================================

                         - 13 -
 
     The power to seize and forfeit conveyances or other
instruments used for smuggling (e.g. vehicles, shipments) will be
expanded to include trafficking. This will provide a major
compliance incentive for the proposed registration system, as it

will apply to conveyances used to transport unregistered
firearms, and will be phased in as the system is implemented.
Existing powers and increased fines and penalties will be used
to ensure that importers accurately describe shipments and
maintain high levels of security for weapons passing through
Canada or before delivery to retailers or customers.

 

IV   REGISTRATION
 
Introduction
 
     Essential to all of the elements of this Firearms Control
Policy is an effective system for registering and tracking all
firearms in Canada. Such a system already exists for 1.2 million
restricted weapons, but the technology used is outmoded and
inefficient, creating unnecessary difficulties for firearms
owners and police. The proposed system will identify and track
all firearms through retail and private transfers, imports and
exports. It will also be designed to overcome problems in the
existing system and reduce red tape and time delays. Fees will
be set by regulation, and adjusted as necessary to achieve
cost-recovery, and all fee regulations will be subject to
Parliamentary (committee) review under subsection 116(2) of the
Criminal Code. The proposed changes will also delegate power to
make regulations governing the operation of the system.
 

Entering the system - the screening of applicants
 
     The proposed amendments will change the present system,
which licenses the acquisition of all firearms and registers
only restricted weapons, to one that registers and tracks all
firearms as they are imported, exported, sold at retail and
transferred from one owner to another. The existing screening
procedure for Firearms Acquisition Certificate applicants was
enhanced in 1991, and will not be significantly changed,
although some further enhancements and technical improvements
are proposed. Instead, the system will be included as the
screening component for the proposed registration system in
respect of applicants seeking acquisition rights. Those who
already have firearms will be screened as they enter the new
system, but under an expedited process to reduce costs and
encourage compliance. In these cases, the use of only a basic
police check is sufficient, as these individuals already have
firearms, and in many cases, will have been previously screened
as Firearms Acquisition Certificate applicants. Firearms
Acquisition Certificate owners will switch to an FPC when their
FAC is renewed.
=================================================================

                        - 14 -

Applicants will be screened according to the following
categories:
 
o    _first-time applicants_ who currently do not own firearms
but who wish to acquire them will be required to meet the full
(enhanced) screening process, including the required safety
course or test;
 
o    _first-time applicants who have firearms or a Firearms
Acquisition Certificate_ will only require a basic police record
check, but police would have discretion to investigate further,
if needed, and owners would be fully screened in future if they
wish to acquire more firearms;
 
o    _applicants who have passed the Canadian Firearm Safety
Course_ will not have to re-take it.
 
     The development and implementation of a Canada-wide
registration system for all firearms is a major project that will
involve the initial registration or re-registration of about 6-7
million existing firearms to their approximately 3 million
owners. Once initial implementation is complete, the system will
handle up to 500,000 transactions (import/export, acquisition,
transfer, disposal, etc.) per year, as well as queries for
information from police agencies. 


The advantages of universal registration
 
     Registration will bring a greater degree of overall firearms
control, and with it a number of direct benefits: 

o    deter and control theft, diversion and smuggling of
firearms;
 
o    ensure individual and business compliance with transfer and
safe storage requirements; 

o    assistance in police investigations;
 
o    enable police in domestic violence situations to better
prepare themselves where they know a firearm is present in the
home;
 
o    enable police to enforce court prohibition orders by
ensuring that all firearms owned by the individuals have been
turned in;
 
o    license access to ammunition (further deterring illegal
acquisition and smuggling);
 
o    monitor firearm traffic through Canada, assisting
international small-arms controls; and 
=================================================================
                         - 15 -
 
o    gather accurate statistical information about firearm
numbers and ownership patterns.


 Transitional and implementation provisions
 
     The development of the necessary programs will begin as soon
as possible, and will be done jointly by the Department of
Justice and the RCMP, in close co-operation with provincial
officials and local police agencies, who will operate much of
the new system. The system will be co-ordinated with other
changes presently being made to the Canadian Police Information
Computer (CPIC) system. Implementation of the national firearms
registration system will be carried out in two overlapping
phases: 
 
o    phase one, the registration of owners, beginning shortly
     after Royal Assent, and
 
o    phase two, the registration of firearms, beginning two years
     after the start of phase one.
 
     To encourage existing firearm owners to come forward and
register their guns, a number of compliance incentives are
proposed. These will include a total or partial waiver of fees,
where applications are made early, an expedited screening process
where the applicant already has firearms or a Firearms
Acquisition Certificate, and recognition of the existing
Canadian Firearm Safety Course. Offences dealing with
unregistered transfers and possession, ammunition and other
matters will also take effect in stages, where necessary, during
the implementation period.


Identification of firearms and owners
 
     Firearms will be identified by make, model, serial number
and other identifiers when they enter Canada, are manufactured
here, or if already in the possession of a gun owner, when they
are first registered on the system. A firearms identification
number will be assigned and used to track the firearm within the
system. This may be attached to the firearm or alternatively,
for commercial purposes, to the shipment container in a
machine-readable form. This latter option will improve accuracy
and reduce the cost of tracking commercial imports and
transfers, especially where quantities of firearms are
transferred at once.

     Owners will be identified on the system, and linked to the
types of firearm (if non-restricted firearms) or individual
firearms (if restricted firearms) which could lawfully be
possessed. For non-restricted firearms, businesses will be able
to enter sales onto the system automatically, and verify that
the purchaser was entitled to acquire and possess the firearm.
For restricted firearms the purchaser's eligibility 

=================================================================

                         - 16 -
 
would still have to be determined by the Registrar of Firearms,
but the information and issuance, refusal or registration would
be transmitted electronically, thereby reducing processing
delays. Police agencies would be able to easily obtain
information about firearms and owners, and to trace found or
recovered firearms.

 
Screening and Access requirements:
 
     The new program is not intended to re-invent the screening
system, which was extensively changed by the 1991 amendments, but
several enhancements of the system are proposed. As indicated
above, the enhanced Firearms Acquisition Certificate screening
process will become the screening component for first time
firearms possessors entering the Canadian Firearms Registration
System.
 
     Provincial officials, regulatory bodies and professional
organizations will be consulted on a proposal to allow
health-care practitioners to disclose patient information where
there is a belief that allowing the patient access to a firearm
would endanger safety (including that of the patient
him/herself). Such information could be used to refuse
certificates or permits, or to prohibit the patient from having
firearms.
 
     The Canadian Firearm Safety Course, developed and
implemented between 1991-94, will be extended to applicants for
"minors' permits", which allow those between 12-18 to acquire or
possess specific firearms for use in recreational applications.
Minors' permits are also available for sustenance. The
amendments will allow access to information protected by the
Young Offenders Act, where it concerns a person who has applied
for a firearm-related certificate or permit.
 
     The safety courses required to qualify for firearms
acquisition will be subject to new criteria set in federal
regulations to ensure national consistency. The authority to
approve the courses will be extended to the Attorney General of
Canada, in addition to the Attorneys General of the provinces.
 
     The creation of a separate safety course for handguns and
other restricted weapons will also permit the reduction of course
content for other guns. The Attorney General of Canada will have
the authority to approve courses on a province-by-province basis,
allowing for some flexibility, particularly to incorporate
additional materials where requested by the Yukon and Northwest
Territories (e.g. wilderness survival information, aboriginal
languages).
 
     The administration of the full screening program is often
quite different in remote and aboriginal communities and major
urban centres. The legislation and existing provisions will allow
as much flexibility as possible to meet differing needs. The
Criminal Code already permits the appointment of local residents
(who need not be police officers) as firearm officers, and
further resources will be committed to 

=================================================================

                         - 17 -
 
assisting these communities in developing and administering the
program in aboriginal languages and accessible formats.

 
Controls on Ammunition
 
     Three major changes are proposed to control access to
ammunition and ammunition components. As noted above, existing
offences of transferring ammunition to a minor who does not have
a permit for a firearm will be shifted from the Explosives
Regulations to the Criminal Code, to emphasize their
significance and permit ready enforcement by provincial and
local police. The age limit will be brought into line with the
1993 increase of the age for Firearms Acquisition Certificate
applicants from 16 to 18. As part of the proposed registration
system, a registration or possession document will be required
in order to purchase ammunition. Until the system is fully
implemented, however, not every legitimate firearm owner will
have these documents, and during the implementation period,
existing documents (Firearms Acquisition Certificate,
registration certificates, minors permits etc.) will still be
used, and regulations will be amended to include other forms of
common identification. The authority to regulate the "storage,
display, handling and transportation" of firearms under the
Criminal Code will also be extended to ammunition, and the
regulations will be expanded to set the same standards for
storing ammunition as now apply to firearms.
 

Responsibility for system operation
 
     Central functions of the existing system are managed by the
RCMP, with local and regional matters dealt with by police
agencies and the chief provincial firearms officers. The
proposed changes are intended to preserve effective federal
co-ordination of the system, while improving efficiency and
according the provinces more influence in the setting of
national policy. The authority to prescribe statutory
instruments such as certificates and permits will be transferred
from the RCMP Commissioner to the Attorney General. An
individual will be appointed as Registrar of Firearms, to take
full-time responsibility for managing the registration system.
The Registrar will be appointed by the Commissioner of the RCMP.

 
Police and military firearms
 
     Canadian Forces firearms and firearms possessed by visiting
foreign forces are already tracked by the Department of National
Defence and will be excluded from the system. These include
regular service weapons, those in authorized military museums,
and those in the hands of foreign military personnel seconded to
the Canadian Forces or in Canada under the Visiting Forces Act.
Police service firearms will also be tracked, but by a separate
system maintained by the RCMP. This requirement, now optional,
will become mandatory.  Firearms temporarily in police hands
(e.g. evidence firearms, seizures, surrendered guns etc.) will
be 
=================================================================

                         - 18 -

entered onto the registration system, to ensure that system
searches are able to trace them. Those who possess firearms on
behalf of the Department of National Defence or the police (e.g.
suppliers, repair contractors) will be tracked by either the
Department of National Defence or police system and opted out of
the main registry. 

Local advisory council
 
     The administration of the legislation raises particular
concerns in remote northern and aboriginal communities, where
municipal or band council members may be more aware of community
circumstances than the firearms officer, who is often a police
officer from outside the community. An effort will be made to
increase the use of local officials as firearm officers, who need
not be police officers under the statute. Where this is not
practicable, however, this proposed change would allow the
Attorney General of Canada to appoint a local advisory council
to function as a liaison between the firearms officer and the
community.
 
     In addition, aboriginal communities will be consulted on all
aspects of the program's implementation, to ensure that their
aboriginal and treaty rights are respected. 


[END OF DOCUMENT]
--
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Information can also be obtained by connecting to the NRA-ILA GUN-TALK
BBS at (703) 934-2121.

    
    Sunday, March 5/95
    Time:  12:30 - 3:00
    
    Ian Murray MP  and The Shooting Federation of Canada, in discussion
    
    Place:  Richmond Legion
    
    
    Thursday, March 9/95
    Time - 	To be determined (I will let you know) as soon I get the
    		details.
    
    Phone in depate, between Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters, and
    Mr. Ian Murray MP.
    
    Channel - 	Trillium Cable ? - as soon as I have the equivelant channel,
   		I will post them.

FWIW

			BOBBIES ARMING
			==============

	Britain's harsh gun control laws are not keeping guns out
	of criminals hands.  As a result the country's law 
	enforcement establishment is having second thoughts about
	its disarming policies of the past.  According to a February
	12th New York Times News Service dispatch, "the growing 
	specter of violence and a changing criminal culture across
	Britain are pushing Scotland Yard and other police agencies
	across the country to rethink their 166-year-old policy of
	policing without guns.  Last summer, for the first time
	ever, a handful of London patrol officers began wearing
	holstered weapons on their hips, and the number of armed
	response vehicles on the streets was more than doubled,
	from five to 12."

	Assaults on police officers during 1994 totaled nearly
	4,000 during 1994, a 15 percent jump over 1993.  Armed
	robberies in England and Wales have tripled during the 
	past decade.  During one recent weekend alone, "armed
	police units in London besieged gunmen who broke into
	a jeweler on Regent Street, in the heart of the capital;
	a supermarket manager in Manchester was murdered by
	robbers, who forced him to kneel and then shot him in
	the head; and an unarmed police officer in Wiltshire
	wrestled to the ground a man who was randomly firing a
	shotgun."  Paul Condon, superintendent of London's
	Metropolitan Police Department, was quoted as saying
	that "we all value the traditional image of the British
	bobby," but "we have to police the real world, and the 
	equipment and training must have some link to the real 
	world."

Source: The New American
	Gun Report, p.36
	April 17, 1995

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        That's it!  The welcome letter will tell you more!
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    From the O/C FreeNet:
    
    
Welcome Home Bill Baldwin

	Bill Baldwin lives in Gloucester, Ontario, part of Ottawa. 
In March he took a short vacation.  While he was away, burglars
broke into his apartment and stole his computer.  They also found
his carefully-stored target rifles (stored with the bolts removed
to disable the guns).
	After looking the guns over, the burglars apparently left,
leaving the guns behind - after all, what use is a 12-lb, single
shot target rifle to a life of crime?
	Some time later the building superintendent noticed an open
window, and crawled in to discover the guns laying around.  He
called the Gloucester police (part of the Ottawa-Carleton regional
police force working under chief Brian Ford who believes no one
should have a gun but he and his minions).
	The police arrarently forced their way into Bill's apartment
and confiscated all Bill's guns, broke into locked boxes containing
ammunition and a coin collection, left Bill a note and a copy of
an unsigned search warrant.
	On Bill's return from vacation and discovery of the damage he
contacted the police as requested - to be charged with three counts
of "careless storage" - a charge already thrown out of one Canadian
court as being to vague to be permitted.
	Bill Baldwin is what is usually described as a "pillar of the
community".  He's a quiet, gentle man, a gentleman of the old
school, perhaps partly as a result of his upbringing in the gentler
society of Saskatchewan.
	Bill has been a competitive shooter almost 20 years and has
won spots on eight Canadian international shooting teams.  He has
represented Canada in competitions in Scotland, England, the USA. 
He has won more than 20 major international shooting medals while
representing Canada, including gold at the 1986 Commonwealth games,
the Governor-General's prize in 1984 (Canada's highest rifle
award), the Queen's Prize at Bisley, England Centenary competition
in 1990 (against 1,500 other competitors), and a host of other
*very* prestigious shooting awards.
	Bill is a qualified range officer, shooting coach and safety
instructor.  He volunteers with junior rifle shooters at the Ottawa
Civil Service recreation association and #2870 Ottawa Service
Battalion Cadet shooters.  He is an active member of the Shooting
Federation of Canada, life member of Dominion of Canada Rifle
Association and the National Capital Region Rifle Association.
	Bill is a man of modest means - now faced with legal costs
expected to exceed $4,000 to defend himself against this
persecution.  He (perhaps naively), always believed the police were
here to *help* law-abiding citizens rather than persecute them by
way of trumped-up tyrannical charges ordered simply as a means to
confiscate their legally-owned sporting guns.
	Welcome home Bill.
	Welcome home to the kind of country Allan Rock and Jean
Chretien say you want to live in.
	BTW, a defense fund has been started to help Bill pay the
costs of his defence of these charges.
  ===================================================================
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.                 Edmund Burke


    

    I'm sure the gun lovers will say "what does this have to do with owning
    guns" and "guns don't kill, people do", but well known sportscaster
    Brian Smith was shot as he was leaving CJOH TV in Ottawa last night.  
    Apparently two shots (.22?) were fired from about 50 feet away and he was 
    hit once in the head.  Smith is in critical condition and has not regained consciousness
    since being hit.  The bullet is assummed to still be lodged in his head
    - he was operated on, but only to stop the bleeding.  Police
    believe that the shooter may have stalked Smith the previous day.
    
    As a local radio talk show host (and long time friend of Smith and a
    proponent of gun control) asked this AM, can anyone give a good reason
    for not increasing gun controls, at least for handguns in metropolitan
    areas?  I certainly can't...
    
    Garry

    
    Correction, news report said it was a rifle, not a handgun. 
    
    And yes, I would object to a ban on my legally owned guns.
    
    FYI Australia has recently abandoned a 13 year effort to register
    all guns, regardless of barrel length. Too expensive, and little
    value in solving crime. But we Canadians insist on following
    down the path where others have been, spending our precious
    tax money on foolish things.
    
    I'm especially interested in the motive here, and whether Brian
    Smith was involved in an unpaid gambling or drug debt. This does
    not have the flavor of a drive-by.
    
    Pat R.

I'm betting that the gun used was probably not obtained by legal means
anyways.

For what it's worth, all the gun control in the world would not stop
a person like the one last night from getting his hands on a gun.

Don't penalize 99.9999999% of us please.

    Yup, quite probaby stolen from a legal owner ... who didn't store
    his weapon safely to prevent it being stolen!  In these days of
    consequential litigation, the original legal owner is as guilty as
    the person who pulled the trigger.  Just like the bartender who
    sold the drink to the drunk driver who mowed people down.
    
    Cars owners must a) be registered, b) be tested, c) have insurance.
    
    Gun owners must be registered and ?????
    
    A car's primary purpose is to move people and things from a to b ...
    
    A gun's primary purpose is destruction ...
    
    Whether a gun is legal or illegal is immaterial, there is still a
    terrible inconsistency in the laws.  It's harder to get a building
    permit than a weapon!
    
    What makes gun control ineffective is the difficulty in enforcement.
    A car is pretty hard to hide ... A gun is easy to hide.  Which is why
    rifles etc are allowed in countries where handguns are not.
    
    Just because handgun controls are difficult to enforce does not mean
    that guns should be made legal.
    
    Stuart
    

    
    Stuart, we have beaten this to death.
    
    The primary purpose of a gun is self defense, that's why police
    carry them.
    The secondary purpose of a gun is as a hobby, target shooting,
    hunting etc.
    
    As a society, Canada has chosen to limit the use of guns as
    a method of self defense, that's why women like Patricia Allen
    die with startling regularity in this country, murdered by ex-spouses
    or boy friends. The police told her they could not protect her.
    
    That's why the elderly are found beaten to death in their homes
    and their country houses ransacked for money. 
    
    911 only works in some cases. The weak, the elderly and the
    crippled are the first to be victims, just as with an animal
    herd in the wild wich loses it's young and its sick.
    
    Patricia Allen would be alive today with a little training and
    a little something in her purse. I know if I were her, facing
    a loaded crossbow, I would not hestitate to do for myself what
    Canadian society could not or would not. Save my own life.
    
    She at least knew of the threat, not so lucky Brian Smith, who's
    only offense seems to have been his familiar face, targeted by
    a nut case with a grudge against the media.
    
    You cannot legislate sanity either.
    
    Pat 

    The person who killed Brian Smith had a history of mental illness,
    according to the media reports.
    
    In applications for an Firearms Accquisition Certificate, this is one
    area that an applicant is checked.
    
    All persons appling for an F.A.C., must be checked for things like
    mental illness, history of violence, criminal activity, whether or not
    a divorce in pending (or something to that end).  And yes, those of in
    the shooting sports carry a 2million dollar liability insurance.
    
    
    Yes Stuart, gun control like roller skate control, like bycicle
    control, like seat belt control, like ANY conrol, WILL ONLY control
    the persons using them as recreation.  After all, we do live in a free
    country, where one is free to do what one wants, as long as that means
    the government can fine you for not being careful, and the criminal
    eliment can do they as they please.
    
    We have beat this dead horse many times, and I can see where it will
    continue to be beat for a long time to come.
    
    
    Tom

    From a different perspective, one could think the purchase of guns and
    weapons would increase in this area after what happened to Brian
    Smith...
    
    Ray.
    

    
    There is no self defense for what happened to Brian Smith. It is
    *very* unsettling to think your life could be over in a millisecond
    because of a madman. 
    
    May Brian rest in peace. The rest of us get to support the crazy
    person for the rest of his days.
    
    Pat

    We should ban the criminal element.
    
    I remember I used to have one on an old stove. Drove me mad.

    POLAR::ROBINSONP
    
    >>Patricia Allen would be alive today with a little training and
    >>a little something in her purse.
    
     The way you say it, it sounds like a fact. Too bad (for you) it is
    only your opinion. I have to laugh (in a sad way) at people who feel
    that ownership of a gun will protect them. Would have done no good for
    Brian Smith. I have this image in my head of the "guns will protect me"
    crowd taking a shower with their gun in a plastic bag. It can't protect
    you in the drawer now can it. They would carry it to the Cub Scout
    meeting because it can't protect you when you are at home now can it ?
    In a country like Canada, it is sad that there are people that
    paranoid.
    
     Since the stats indicate that the person who will kill you is most likely
    someone you know, what are the odds that very same person (spouse,
    friend) will use your own gun on you ? For real "protection" it would
    have to be a) loaded, and b) easy to get at. Both of these would be
    against current laws, and make it easy for that "killer you know" to
    take you out.
    
     As stated last time we went down this pointless path, you cannot get a
    gun for the purposes of "self defense". You mention it as a reason for
    getting a gun, again like it was a fact, and again it is only your
    (misinformed or intentionally misleading) opinion.
    
    								Derek.

    in -.1 I meant to say the gun could not protect the Cub Scout person if
    IT were at home and the person were at the meeting.
    
     						       Derek.

    Let's all get guns so we can protect ourselves from one another ... my
    what a wonderful idea!  Police can't protect us, so the logical thing
    to do is of course to arm ourselves to the teeth.  Carrying a "little
    protection" would take on a whole new meaning.  Maybe drugstores should
    carry handguns and ammo instead of condoms.
    
    ;^)

    
    
    	
>    Let's all get guns so we can protect ourselves from one another ... my
>    what a wonderful idea!  Police can't protect us, so the logical thing
>    to do is of course to arm ourselves to the teeth.  
    
    	Interesting...sounds just like Switzerland ('cept they have machine
    guns). Also, private citizens can buy just about anything, right up to
    functional tanks. Hmmmmm...
    
>Carrying a "little
>    protection" would take on a whole new meaning.  Maybe drugstores should
>    carry handguns and ammo instead of condoms.
    
    	Before 1938 you could buy full auto Thompson machine guns (the
    imfamous "Tommy Gun") for about $40 at the local hardware store.
    
    	Bottom line: Gun control doesn't work, never has. England had a
    lower crime rate BEFORE gun control measures were in effect. Canada has
    always had a lower crime rate than the U.S. (care for the charts? Mr.
    Collins has a pretty nice collection of mortality data going back to
    1960~),and the average firearm death rate for the 13~ years BEFORE Canada's
    strict handgun regulation was LOWER than the average of the years after
    (there was a peak in the mid 70's and then it leveled out).
    
    	Gun control is nothing more than useless feel-good legislation done
    in the name of just doing SOMETHING.
    
    
    jim

    SUBPAC::SADIN
    
     You seem to know alot about Canada, why is it you don't know we feel
    the gun culture in the States is crazy ? Your Swiss example is fine for
    the Swiss, but does it really apply to Canada ? My only conclusion is
    that the average Swiss person is alot less violent than the average
    North American.
    
    How about I point out that NYC has gun control (a recent development I
    think) and their murder rate is down to a 25 year low ? Looks like gun
    control worked there. You are preaching to a very small choir in Canada
    that think more guns a better. You will never convince the rest of
    us that the answer to violence is to provide everybody with the ability
    to perpetrate violence with the squeeze of a finger. Too many "dad
    shoots kids by mistake, man shoots student on front lawn" come out of
    the States to make it seem credible.
    
    							Derek.
    (PS. please don't bring up that we need them to "protect" ourselves
    from the government. We mortally wounded the PCs in the last election
    without a shot being fired.)

    The answer is a steady diet of rich cheeses and lots of wine and
    spirits. Works for the Swiss.

>                     <<< Note 892.25 by KAOFS::D_STREET >>>
    >        -< If not gun control, why is there less violence in Canada ?? >-
    
    Canada has always been less violent. Why? Who knows? It's certainly not
    because of gun control.
    
    
>     You seem to know alot about Canada, why is it you don't know we feel
>    the gun culture in the States is crazy ? 
    
    	Do you speak for all Canadians when you say that? It seems that a
    gun lobby has developed in Canada so there must be at least SOME other
    canadians that believe in their right to own certain firearms.
    
>    How about I point out that NYC has gun control (a recent development I
>    think) and their murder rate is down to a 25 year low ? 
    	
    	New York City may be down to a 25yr low for THEIR murder rate, but
    they're still significantly higher than other cities/towns that don't
    have gun control. NYC has had strict gun control laws for many many
    years...it is not a new development. NYC and Washington DC have led the
    murder rate in the U.S. for years and only recently have dropped a few
    slots on the chart. I believe what you will also find is that while the
    murder rate is down NATION WIDE (not just in NYC) the homocide rate by
    firearm is UP. Hmmmm...kinda washes out the "gun control works" theory
    eh?
    
>    You will never convince the rest of
>    us that the answer to violence is to provide everybody with the ability
>    to perpetrate violence with the squeeze of a finger. 
    
    	I'm not trying to convince you of that. I'm trying to convince you
    to leave the honest firearms owners alone and that gun control doesn't
    work. I could care less if you or the rest of the population decides to
    carry/buy a firearm.
    
>Too many "dad
>    shoots kids by mistake, man shoots student on front lawn" come out of
>    the States to make it seem credible.
    
    	Bull. You're a victim of media disinformation. In the U.S. firearms
    accidents are the lowest they've been since the early 1900's (thanks
    to firearms education). Firearms accidents have declined at a rate
    greater than any other form of accidental death despite the fact that
    firearms ownership has quadrupled.
    
>    (PS. please don't bring up that we need them to "protect" ourselves
>    from the government. We mortally wounded the PCs in the last election
>    without a shot being fired.)
    
    	I believe in changing government through the ballot box not the
    cartridge box.
    
    	cheers,
    	
    	jim
    
                  

    
    Re: last few, good ones, keep it up.
    
    I'm outa here, 2 weeks camping in the bush with the wife and kids.
    
    Armed only with a cellphone, our chances are slim if some
    large carnivore decides he his hungry. My guns are stored
    safely while I'm away. 
    
    Looking forward to lots of reading when I return..
    
    Cheers, Pat 

    
    
    
    	Hey Pat, what's your cellphone #? I'll give you a ring....:)
    
    
    jim

    
    To All:
    
    Most of my data can be found in BACK40::SOAPBOX, topic 130.  If I get
    the time, I will cross-post it.
    
    jc
    

SUBPAC::SADIN 
    
>>Canada has always been less violent. Why? Who knows? It's certainly not
>>because of gun control.
    So you don't know why, but you have a firm handle on why not ? I don't
    think so. Less guns, either through less interest or gun control is
    considered to be part of the reason up here. So are social programs
    and better race relations. No one part is the whole answer.
    
>>Do you speak for all Canadians when you say that? It seems that a
>>gun lobby has developed in Canada so there must be at least SOME other
>>canadians that believe in their right to own certain firearms.

 Well **all** Candians would not be true, but enough that the government is
not too concerned about the backlash. I for one do not want the tiny gun lobby
in Canada to set public policy. Do you know why they are up in arms ? From 
what I hear it is rural people who do not want to pay a fee to have a gun. A
far cry from demanding the right to own a gun. I will admit there is a fringe
that think it is the first step towards confiscation, but that is not the real
thrust of our little gun lobby. If confiscation became an issue, I would have
to side with the gun lobby. I am not a no guns for any reason person, I just
don't agree with making it "easy" to get a gun. I think you should have to show
your permit to buy ammunition. A small price to pay that might have saved
Ian Battersby's (SP?) life.

>>New York City may be down to a 25yr low for THEIR murder rate, but
>>they're still significantly higher than other cities/towns that don't
>>have gun control.

Funny how statistics are twisted to meet an agenda isn't it ? I present one,
and you try to qualify it to meet your agenda. Can we agree that murder rates
are affected by more things than gun control?
    
>    You will never convince the rest of
>    us that the answer to violence is to provide everybody with the ability
>    to perpetrate violence with the squeeze of a finger. 
    
>>I'm not trying to convince you of that. I'm trying to convince you
>>.... that gun control doesn't work. 

 What is the opposite of gun control ? 
    
>>Bull. You're a victim of media disinformation. In the 

 Funny, I don't hear **ANY** "Dad mistakenly shoots kid or confused student gets
shot asking for directions" stories out of Canada. A few years ago I was in
Nashvill and was watching the news. There was a big debate about being able to
shoot a dog that was menacing you or your family. Pitt Bulls were eating people
quite regularly back then. The debate had examples about being on a pick-nik
or jogging and a dog attacks. It took me a while to figgure out why this seemed
so strange to me. Then I realized that the assumption was that you would bring
a gun to the family pick-nik, or with you jogging. Wether you believe it or not,
the vast majority of Candians (and I'll bet even most of the "gun lobby") do
not  think a gun at a family pick-nik is appropriate. It's not just a different
country up here, it is a different culture. We did not have a "wild west" which
spawned a "guns can solve problems" culture. Our west created the image of the
RCMP which "always got their man". Quite a different lesson learned would you
not say? Maybe that is why we place more trust in our police to protect us.
    
>>I believe in changing government through the ballot box not the
>>cartridge box.

 At least we can agree on this.
    
							Derek.    
                  
    

    re:                     <<< Note 892.31 by KAOFS::D_STREET >>>
    
>    So you don't know why, but you have a firm handle on why not ? I don't
>    think so. Less guns, either through less interest or gun control is
>    considered to be part of the reason up here. 
    
    	But there has not always been gun-control, yet your crime rate has
    ALWAYS been lower than the U.S.. I don't think you can safely conclude
    that gun control has had ANY effect on your crime rate. I do know of a
    study that was done on suicides in Canada. It seems that after the
    draconian gun laws went into effect, people were still committing
    suicide at the same rate, just by different means (mostly jumping off
    of bridges).
    
>I for one do not want the tiny gun lobby
>in Canada to set public policy. Do you know why they are up in arms ? From 
>what I hear it is rural people who do not want to pay a fee to have a gun. A
>far cry from demanding the right to own a gun. 

	That's because no one is taking away their guns (yet). I bet that if 
your government went and told everyone to turn in all their guns, you'd have 
some really p.o.'d canadians! Still, them not wanting to pay a fee to own a
gun is not so far fetched. I hear it'll cost $100~ to register EACH gun. What
about the collecter or active target shooter who owns many firearms? I
    doubt someone who's taken years to build a collection could afford the
    cost. There is no reason for these LAW ABIDING people to have to pay
    such a fee! Find another way to raise the money for your registration
    system.
    
>I think you should have to show
>your permit to buy ammunition. A small price to pay that might have saved
>Ian Battersby's (SP?) life.
    
    	Guess what? We agree! Where I live (Massachusetts) you need to show
    a license before you can purchase ammunition. What I don't like to see
    is arbitrary power given to the police chief to deny licenses. There
    should be a set of rules to follow and that is it! No denying licenses
    because you don't like someones hair/religion/politics etc.
    
    	As far as Ian Battersby goes, he could've been run over or stabbed
    instead of shot. Would you be calling for knife registration? 
    
>Funny how statistics are twisted to meet an agenda isn't it ? I present one,
>and you try to qualify it to meet your agenda. Can we agree that murder rates
>are affected by more things than gun control?
    
    	I contend that gun control has NO affect on murder rates. 
    
    
>>>    You will never convince the rest of
>>>    us that the answer to violence is to provide everybody with the ability
>>>    to perpetrate violence with the squeeze of a finger. 
>>I'm not trying to convince you of that. I'm trying to convince you
>>.... that gun control doesn't work. 
> What is the opposite of gun control ? 
    
    	The opposite of gun control is not "providing everyone with the
    ability to perpertrate violence with the squeeze of a finger". Give it
    a rest man! You act like I want to go out and shove a gun in the hand
    of every person I can find and then you believe all these formerly law
    abiding people will become maniacle killers because they now possess a
    gun! People do not turn into deranged loonies because they possess
    firearms. In Florida, when they relaxed the concealed carry laws, the
    murder rate DROPPED 22% and only 2% of the population actually went
    ahead and applied for permits. Out of the 200,000+ permits issued only
    17 have been revoked for crimes being committed with a firearm present
    (the firearm was not necessarily used in the crime, just present at the
    time). Hence another prime example of the fact that people who follow
    the law are not the ones you need to worry about! 
    
> Funny, I don't hear **ANY**"Dad mistakenly shoots kid or confused student gets
>shot asking for directions"stories out of Canada.
    
    	Funny, I hear there's quite a bit LESS overall crime in Canada,
    therefore less of a worry about being attacked. The stories you repeat
    are tragedies for sure, but they're no worse than "mother drowns her
    two kids" or "15yr old stabs friends mother to death". Accidents,
    murders, etc will happen no matter if firearms are available or not.
    
>Quite a different lesson learned would you
>not say? Maybe that is why we place more trust in our police to protect us.
    
    	We live in two very different societies, no question. I have to
    wonder about the "trusting the police to protect us" part tho'. Do you
    have a police officer in your house, assigned to guard you? How long
    would it take a police officer to get to you? How about to one of your
    more remote neighbors? 3mins? 8mins? 15mins? more? You've got a couple
    of rough looking gentlemen breaking down the door to your house....will
    they get through before the police arrive? What will you do if they do? 
    I'm sorry, here we don't agree. The police usually clean up afterwards,
    they don't usually prevent a crime from happening. You dial up your
    local cops and see how long it takes for them to get there. Then think
    about all the things that could happen to you before the police
    arrived.
    
    	We had a case here in Massachusetts where 3 young ladies were held
    captive for two days in their home. They were raped and brutalized.
    What happened was 3 nasty guys broke into the home and attacked the
    girl downstairs. They guys didn't know there were two more women
    upstairs. The ladies upstairs called the police, explained the
    situation and told them to hurry. The police officer came, knocked on
    the door, and when no one answered, he left! The two ladies upstairs
    didn't want to yell to him for fear of alerting the intruders
    downstairs of their presence. They called the police again, but the
    dispatcher never bothered to send another cruiser around (she thought
    it was a prank call). These women went to court and sued the Boston PD
    for failing to help them. The supreme court found the Boston PD not
    guilty of negligence and ruled that police do not have a responsibility
    to protect the individual, only to protect society as a whole. Maybe
    it's different in Canada, but that's what we're faced with here. You're
    protection is YOUR responsibility.
    
>We did not have a "wild west" which
>spawned a "guns can solve problems" culture. 
    
    	I don't think we have that kind of culture at all. I grew up around
    firearms (they were always in the house) and I NEVER thought of using
    one to settle a fight or prove anything to anyone. If you think the
    modern Crips and Bloods of the world take any of their training from
    the "wild west" history of our country, you're sadly mistaken. Heck,
    Dodge City had a murder rate of something like 1 in 100,000...that's
    less than Canada at it's best!
    	
    	My whole point in this string is that gun-control laws don't reduce
    crime. They don't reduce murders, they don't reduce anything except
    legal firearms owners. Canada and the U.S. can't seem to stop the drugs
    from coming in (heroin is a major player AGAIN), what makes you think
    illegal guns won't start coming in once the trade gets lucrative
    enough? What makes you think you can stop them? Guess who has all the
    guns then?
    
    jim

    
    It would seem to me that if we could enforce the gun control
    legislation WE ALREADY HAVE, there would be no "gun control"
    discusssions.  For instance, its much easier to buy a gun illegally
    than legally.
    
    Besides, with over 80% of crime being commited with an illegal gun,
    what good will it do just to throw on more laws?  It's already
    a ridiculous amount of fees, background searches, tests, and courses
    just for an honest guy to get a gun.
     

    
    
    >>Canada has always been less violent. Why? Who knows? It's certainly not
    >>because of gun control.
    
    Why?	Respect for/of each other.
    
    
    
    

    
    	>            -< try a please and thank you, it really doesn't hurt >-
    
    	I make sure to say please and thank you all the time. It's the way
    I was raised and it's the way I raise my children (respect your elders,
    etc). If more folks would do that, we'd all be in a happier world...
    
    
    jim

    It's is possible that this tragedy MAY have been avoided if the
    proposed gun registration laws were currently in effect.  ASSUMING they
    were and ASSUMMING the firearm was registered, the police would have
    had a CHANCE to remove firearms from the alleged murderer when his
    "problems" first became known to them several years ago.  As it is,
    without registration, the police have no chance to remove guns...
    
    Also, Mr. Sadin, I believe you are quite incorrect re: the cost to
    register a gun in Canada (under the new laws).  It's suppose to cost in
    the order of $10.00, not $100.00, and I believe that early
    registrations would be free or multiple registrations would be done for
    the same fee.
    
    And finally, the guy who alledegely killed Brian Smith was charged with
    assault a few years ago in Nova Scotia and then he moved to Ottawa -
    the Nova Scotia police decided not to persue him for a possible $300.00
    fine.  There feeling the heat now...
    
    Regards and "BAN 'EM ALL"
    
    Garry
    

    Would the N.S. police have pursued this guy to get his .22, even if
    they knew he had one?
    
    -Stephen

    I don't know, but I would hope that the NS police would inform the
    Ottawa police (police in general I guess) that there might be a
    problem.  All those police computer systems must be good for
    something...

    
    	
    
    	re: .36
    
    	seems there's alot of assuming going on there. The cops wouldn't
    pursue this guy before for his minor offense, yet you assume they
    would've been right on top of him to take away his .22? BIG assumption.
    
    	The "anything would be better than nothing" attitude is great. Do
    things that probably won't have any effect on something and then sit
    back and say "well, at least we did something". Yup...good attitude.
    
    	Your points about the registration fees have been noted. Thanks.
    
    	jim "OWN 'EM ALL"
    
    
    

    
    This is some of the information I gathered during my research; and,
    where possible, the 1994 stats have been added in.
    
    jc
    
    
    Canadian Homicide Rates:

		   FIREARM    		    FIREARM
           HOM.   HOMICIDE          HOM.   HOMICIDE
    YEAR   RATE   RATE       YEAR   RATE   RATE
    ====   ====   ========   ====   ====   =======
    
    1974 - 2.62 - 1.24       1985 - 2.71 - 0.85
    1975 - 3.02 - 1.26       1986 - 2.17 - 0.67
    1976 - 2.84 - 1.10       1987 - 2.52 - 0.79
    1977 - 2.99 - 1.09       1988 - 2.14 - 0.63
    1978 - 2.75 - 1.04       1989 - 2.40 - 0.80
    1979 - 2.60 - 0.85       1990 - 2.37 - 0.70
    1980 - 2.41 - 0.79       1991 - 2.69 - 0.96
    1981 - 2.60 - 0.80       1992 - 2.57 - 0.86
    1982 - 2.65 - 0.99       1993 - 2.19 - 0.67
    1983 - 2.68 - 0.88       1994 - 2.04 - 0.67
    1984 - 2.60 - 0.89
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    From `Crime Trends In Canada, 1962-1990'
    Juristat Service Bulletin, Vol. 12, No. 7

    Violent Crime Rates In Canada:
    ==============================

    1962 - 221     1970 - 481     1977 - 583     1984 - 715
    1963 - 249     1971 - 501     1978 - 591     1985 - 751
    1964 - 284     1972 - 507     1979 - 621     1986 - 808
    1965 - 299     1973 - 534     1980 - 648     1987 - 856
    1966 - 347     1974 - 564     1981 - 666     1988 - 898
    1967 - 381     1975 - 597     1982 - 686     1989 - 947
    1968 - 423     1976 - 596     1983 - 686     1990 - 1013
    1969 - 453     

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    From `Robbery In Canada'
    Juristat Service Bulletin, Vol. 12, No. 10

    Page 5, Gun Control Legislation:

      "In January, 1978, gun control legislation came into force in Canada.
      This legislation included the imposition of stricter controls on the 
      issuance of registration certificates (which are necessary to acquire
      restricted weapons such as handguns), the creation of new criminal 
      offences in relation to firearms use, and the provision for more severe
      penalties for the criminal use of firearms.  Following the enactment of
      the legislation, there was a significant but short-lived increase in the
      rate of robbery with firearms.  Starting in 1982 the rate of robbery with
      firearms started a long-term decline, whereas robbery with other offensive
      weapons continued its steady increase.  it is difficult to be certain, but
      the data would suggest that there was a substitution effect: fewer
      robberies with firearms, more robberies with other weapons."

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    From `Homicide In Canada, 1993'
    Juristat Service Bulletin, Vol. 14, No. 15
    
    Canadian Homicide Rates:
    
    1961 - 1.28		1972 - 2.34	   1983 - 2.68
    1962 - 1.43		1973 - 2.42	   1984 - 2.60
    1963 - 1.32		1974 - 2.62	   1985 - 2.71
    1964 - 1.31		1975 - 3.02	   1986 - 2.17
    1965 - 1.41		1976 - 2.84	   1987 - 2.52
    1966 - 1.25		1977 - 2.99	   1988 - 2.14
    1967 - 1.66		1978 - 2.75	   1989 - 2.40
    1968 - 1.81		1979 - 2.60	   1990 - 2.37
    1969 - 1.86		1980 - 2.41	   1991 - 2.69
    1970 - 2.19		1981 - 2.60	   1992 - 2.57
    1971 - 2.15		1982 - 2.65	   1993 - 2.19
					   1994 - 2.04
    
    Firearms Use In Homicides:
    
    		Firearms	Percentage Of 
    Year	Homicides	Total Homicides
    ====	=========	===============
    1974	   283		    47.2
    1975	   292		    41.7
    1976	   258		    38.6
    1977	   260		    36.6
    1978	   250		    37.8
    1979	   207		    32.8
    1980	   195		    32.9
    1981	   199		    30.7
    1982	   248		    37.2
    1983	   224		    32.8
    1984	   228		    34.2
    1985	   222		    31.5
    1986	   175		    30.8
    1987	   202		    31.4
    1988	   169		    29.3
    1989	   218		    33.2
    1990	   196		    29.7
    1991	   271		    35.8
    1992	   246		    33.6
    1993	   193		    30.6
    1994	   196		    32.9

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    The following is from `Weapons And Violent Crime'
    Juristat Service Bulletin, Vol. 11, No. 12
    
    Page 4:
    
    "Between 1975 and 1989, the number of firearms homicides decreased by
    25%.  Similarly, when examined as a proportion of total homicides,
    firearms homicides decreased from 42% of of all homicides in 1975 to
    29% in 1988.  In 1989, however (the year Marc Lepine killed 14 women),
    the proportion of firearms homicides rose slightly to 33% of all
    homicides."
    
    "The decrease in the *rate* of firearm homicides is even more
    noteworthy.  The firearm homicide rate declined by 38%, from 1.3 per
    100,000 in 1975 to 0.8 in 1989.  Since the rate for non-firearms
    homicides has remained relatively stable during this time, the marginal
    drop in the total homicide rate appears to be almost entirely
    attributable to the drop in firearms-related incidents."

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    From the 1992 Mortality journal:

    suicides w/firearms			1,046
    accidents or injury w/firearms	   84
    homicide w/firearms			  214
					-----
    TOTAL				1,344

    There were also 9 deaths due to `legal intervention', but no breakdown
    was given of the instrument causing the death.
    

    re: Recent "Gun Control" in New York City.  I believe the "Sullivan
    Law" was inacted in 1925.  Hardly recent.
    
    I had always assumed that like Maine, Canadians were fairly well armed.
    It seemed the absence of serious crime in Maine was mutual respect.
    It is easy to respect the rights of an armed neighbor.
    The evil prey on the weak.  A trained firearms owning 80 year old is
    not easy prey, therefore not weak.

    I only know of hunters and farmers having rifles or shotguns.

    The only reason for owning weapons for self defense is that you
    clearly do not trust your neighbour or anyone else for that matter.
    
    And that makes the world a sad place to live.
    
    It is ironic that many people claim to be Christian, and yet arm
    themselves to the teeth.... Seems that one of the cornerstones of
    Christianity is love and trust.
    
    Moreover, I cannot understand why anyone would want to own a device
    of such destruction.
    
    One of the items in the Canadian Chrater of Rights and Freedoms if I
    remember correctly, is a freedom from fear ... That is quite
    encompassing, but in my book it includes the fear that someone might
    pull a hand gun and start shooting.  It is up to government to enact
    and enforce legislation that helps preserve that freedom.
    
    Now ... as I've said before, gun laws are hard to enforce, by the very
    nature of the beast, but clearly, the place to start is with the
    manufacturer, and then to ensure that users are properly trained,
    routinely licensed, like a car, and insured.  Sure it only serves to
    keep legal owners legal ... but even doing that may ensure that legal
    owners takes steps to ensure their guns a) aren't stolen and become
    an illegal weapon and b) aren't used against themselves.
    
    I had a neighbour in Kanata who was into target shooting with rifles.
    He stored and transported rifles, their bolts and ammunition in
    separate locked containers.  That is called gun safety and I never felt
    uncomfortable after learning he had guns in his house once I knew that.
    
    Stuart

    
    .41

                        -< Are guns unusual in canada? >-
    
    In Ontario, there are less than a dozen permits in current issue to 
    civilians for the purposes of self-defence.  This permit allows the
    bearer to carry a loaded handgun, preferably concealed.  Apart from 
    these permit holders, no civilian is allowed to be in possession of 
    a loaded handgun anywhere except a proper firing range, and cannot be 
    in possession of a loaded rifle unless they are at a range, or in the
    process of (legally) hunting.
    
    Storing or transporting a loaded weapon is an offence.