Conference kaosws::canada

    Well, I don't know who to vote for really, although I used to be a
    Liberal at heart.
    
    So many issues, unemployment, deficits, and stupid politicians.
    
    I will certainly not vote for Kim Campbell's Conservatives after
    hearing on the news this morning that she was quoted as saying the
    Conservatives can't announce their fiscal policy until after the
    election because the books are in such a mess they don't know where we
    stand!  Well if that doesn't inspire confidence!  Who the hell was
    running the country for the past 9 years??? Duh, we were, but, uh, we,
    uh, really don't know, uh, what we, uh, were doing, uh, eh!
    
    Otto.

I am convinced it is time to go out on election day and add one more
candidate to the ballot ...

"None of the above"     X


That's who'll get my vote.


Not voting doesn't say anything, but voting for the best of a bad lot
says nothing either.  I think it's time we showed our politicians that
we are fed up with them all.  Then let them sort out the mess when the
"None of the above" party wins a majority!

Stuart

    I am going to write MY name on the ballot, sure it is going to be
    spoiled, but still counted under OTHER.
    
    Jean 
    

    >>I am going to write MY name on the ballot, sure it is going to be
    >>spoiled, but still counted under OTHER.
    
     Thats what the RINO party is advocating. In response to people who say
    it is a waste of a vote, they say:
    
     These people don't have very high self esteem.
    
    
    						Derek.

    Otto, so you used to be a liberal, and you won't vote PC, hopefully
    you've seen the results of the NDP in Ontario, living in Quebec does
    that mean you'll vote for the Bloc?

    No, Bill, I'll probably vote Liberal, although the leader is out of
    date, but "lesser of evils..."
    
    Otto.

    Why not REFORM or NATIONAL or BLOC for that matter?
    
    Look at the PC's, disgraceful record of patronage, mismanagement of the
    economy, and the same backroom boys behind Campbell as Mulrooney. 
    Mulrooney quit because he could smell the tar and feathers from Sussex
    Street and except for a few of his well positioned 'buds', same crew
    manning the ship.
    
    Look at the Liberals, previous disgraceful record of partonage,
    previous record of poor government direction, promises, stupid promises
    and crap promises and a leader from the 'old boys club'.  Want 'em
    back?
    
    How about the NDP, lack of credibility, Bob Rae and a leader with
    limited national prominence. Do we take a chance federally what they
    have done provincially?
    
    Don't know what will happen except I think that the three big parties 
    have misjudged the anger that's out there.
    
    Maybe the RHINO party has the best idea, write your name on the ballot. 
    The Ross Perot of Canada!
    
    

    I will certainly take a closer look at the non-mainstream parties
    (REFORM/NATIONAL) this time around.  Where's the choice in the
    big-three?  The last provincial NDP win proved that governments are all
    the same when in power.  As soon as they got in they back-tracked on
    many of their promises (fortunately), took their turn at the patronage
    trough, did little to help the economy, or the environment (one of
    their only positive positions IMHO).  
    
    In a previous string, I whined about the lack of choice.  I wanted a
    Ross Perot to restore my faith in the democratic system (as flawed as
    it may be).  I won't vote for a woman just because she's a woman
    (although I certainly have no problem voting for one).  I don't want to
    vote against the ruling party just because they screwed up (the best of
    a bad lot earlier in this discussion), nor will I or can I choose the
    Bloc.  
    
    So, I will check out the up-and-comers or will just not vote.  The last
    is likely because the way it often works, is that I've too many chores
    to do on voting day.  I will try to add more later once I've learned
    more about the options.
    
    Doug
    

    I guess the lack on interest in this note just indicates how pathetic
    this election really is!
    
    

    Or it indicates the 'real Canadian spirit' searched for in the base
    note.  :^)
    
    Doug

    
    
    I've lost faith in whatever party is in power - they all talk a good
    story until they are in power, then it's same sh*t, different day,
    different face.
     
    I don't like any of the leaders, although Bouchard seems to be the only
    honest one of them all. I live in Ontario so I can't vote BQ. 
    
    My vote goes to 'none of the above' - if everyone did this maybe the 
    folks in Campbell's Castle would get the hint - we don't like you.
    
    A spoiled vote still counts (IMHO)  if none of the candidates or
    their leaders deserve to be in power.
    
    Terry

    I have talked to some of the 'candidates' in my riding and I use the
    term loosely.  They are shocked at the real 'anger' out there in their
    consituancies.
    
    Another person I talked to is from Calgary.  Asked about the Bloc.  It
    appears they get little press out west.  They are more concerned about
    the provincial slashing of services not the Quebec question.
      
    Apathy and spoiling ballots will not awaken the political system in
    Canada.    
    
    We as Canadians need to get angry (not violent)!  
    
    So, what does a party need to do to get your vote?  We demand change
    but expect the status quo.  How do we get off out apthetic butts and do
    something?
    
    
    

    Kim Cambell has lost all credability with me (not that she had alot to
    start with). Her present approach of "I think the election is the wrong
    time to tell people what I will do as Government", is an insult to
    Canadians. You damn right she won't tell us what she plans to do to our
    social programs, because if she did, she would never get elected. As
    far as I know, we never elected a party on a platform of
    "constitutional reform" but look at the mess we got into over that. We
    also never voted a party in to impose a GST, and look at the mess that
    got us into. I also will point out that more people voted against the
    party pushing free trade, but they shoved that at us as well. The
    Conservatives also tried to screw the pensioners, remember that ? These
    people cannot be trusted. And as has already been mentioned Kim is run
    by the same folks who gave us "Lien Brian". I am afraid "democracy" for
    me will consist of an ABC vote. Anybody But Conservative. I will figure
    who has the best chance to beat them in my riding, and vote for them.
    Not a great reason to cast a vote, but better than throwing my vote
    away, and letting these jerks tear the country apart some more.
    
    							Derek

    Reform party has my X.
    
    1. Make it law that the national budget has to be balanced.
    
    2. Work on way to reduce the national debt.
    
    3. Reduce foriegn aid.
    
    4. Make transfer payments more in line with the provinces contribution.
    
    5. Downsize government.
    
    6. Sell off crown corporations.
    
    7. Take a serious look at universality for CPP and medicare
    
    
    Sound like really good starting points to me.
    
    
    The only big problem is that the reform party won't bow to Quebec
    and I don't even think they have candidate there.
    
    
    Brian V
    

    -.1
    
     Could you explain the statement about getting rid of universality of
    medicare ?  Will you volenteer to have no health coverage to reduce the
    debt, or is that an honour you would rather bestow on others ?
    
    
    							Derek.

    Universality of medicare and cpp should be seriously looked at.
    Not to reduce total coverage but to put the dollars where they are
    needed most. If you are retired and have an after taxes income of 
    over $20k then you probably don't "need" cpp. Similarly if your income 
    is high enough there is no reason why you couldn't pay for your medical
    insurance.
    
    But seeing as this is a right wing alert I'll give you what you
    want. 
    
    Welfare should be just enough to get by on ... nothing more,
    no entertainment expenses, no townhouses, no cable tv.
    
    Native's want the right to self government....fine give it to them
    and then cut all financial aid to those who choose to be a part of
    that system. (you can't have it both ways)
    
    The east coast of Canada (for example) gets a far greater amount 
    (porportionately) in transfer payment then the rest of the provinces.
    If that area can not viabley support it's current population then we
    should be paying them to move...not aid them in a life of seasonal
    unemployment.
    
    
    --------------------------------------------> Brian V
    not left
    

    

    	How about this party called the Natural Law Party I heard about
    on the way in today. Something like it we follow the laws of nature,
    rid ourselves of the GST, stop unemployment, live in harmony, we
    will be ONE with nature!

    	I think I overheard (in the background) the leader of the party
    asking his Chief of Staff to "pass the doobie"!

    Doesn't the R E F O R M Party also stand for a triple E senate and the
    end of official bilingualism?
    
    Hey Mike, saw the add for the Natural Party on the National News last
    night.  Wow, there's real choice! 
    
    If the party is that natural, why wasn't this guy naked?

    		
    	While driving to work yesterday, I caught the CBC "Commentary"
    which was an open letter to Canadians by a  Yale University professor 
    (name slipped me but it was James somebody), a specialist in Health Care 
    and Social Policy.  He said that Canadians should be very careful about
    listening to the debates about Health Care in the U.S. that are firing
    up. He said that the insurance companies and opponents of Clinton's
    Health care pkg will be holding the Canadian system up as an example of
    a system that doesn't work.  He stated that Canada in fact has a system
    that provides universality at 40% of the cost of what the U.S. HAS NOW
    (before any universality), and the Canada Health Act was, quote ,
    " A miracle of  Post World War II  policy".  I think the media,
    propelled by the U.S. opponents of medicare, blows whatever
    inefficiencies in the system way out of proportion, and I and my lousy
    little vote on October 25th will have nothing to do with any party who
    advocates a change to the universality of medical care......
    
    Candace

Indeed, Canada's medical care system does have problems, but how often are
you or I, in our daily lives directly impacted by these problems.  I have
never been to the Doctor and not got timely treatment corresponding to the
importance of the ailment.

On the other hand, there are a high proportion of Americans, even those
with good insurance plans who cannot get treatment for some urgent conditions
for financial reasons ... never mind timely treatment.

So ... don't let anybody tell you that our medical care system is a failure.

Stuart

    Stuart the crisis is not in the supply of services it in the cost
    of services..
    
    
    Transfer payments for health care from the feds have gone down over
    the last few years. And the provinces are trying to pass this
    down and make it the hospitals and the communities problem. How many
    beds has your local hospital closed.??? How many types of surgery are 
    now considered "day surgery" strictly because they dont have room ?
    Often even if you have Private room coverage you'll end up in a ward
    because the hospital had to close (no longer use ...but they are still
    there) private rooms.
     
    Everyone agrees that the national debt needs to be reduced but noone
    except the reform party is willing to lay their cards on the table.
    
    
    
    Our health care is great ... but we may wreck the economy trying to
    maintain it as it is.
    
    Brian V
    

Indeed Brian, I don't argue with you there, but still, a lot of the
complaints from south of the border about our health care has people
believing that we do not get quality care, even in emergency ... believe
me, I've talked with many of them in CXO!

The reduction of funding is occurring from every level...  but I have a
hard time believing that closing beds solves a funding problem.  The building
overhead is still there, and the proving is charged for the srvices provided
on an as needed basis.

If there is a problem it is in the waste (as ever).  When we had our
last child, every day, there was a packet provided that contained some
things for the care of the baby ... this packet contained a pair of
scissors like kids safety scissors , required to cut another packet
open.  Everything in this packet, apart from what was actually needed
(which was a couple swabs) was thrown away, including the scissors.

Medication individually packeted from the hospital pharmacy. The list
goes on and on and on.

The other problem is misuse ... part of the problem here must be laid at
the doctors feet ... for afterhours services, many doctors have stated
"go to emergency".  This has been so ingrained that many people don't
bother with their Doc after hours ... they head for emergency.  So the
hospital is treating people with colds, while broken arms wait!

Cure the waste and this kind of mis-use and health care costs will
fall.

Stuart

    Eliminating our universal medicare program in Canada is not the answer
    to reducing the debt. Eliminating wasteful gov't spending is the answer
    - such as million dollar paintings, pictures of our external affairs
    minister, and billions of dollars in foreign aid to such 'democratic'
    countries as Indonesia, Burma (forget what it's now known as) etc, and
    investments in grandious (sp) make work projects like Hibernia.
    Government waste has become a way of life in Canada that is no longer
    acceptable to the average taxpayer.  
    
    As a parent of a medically fragile child, I have seen both the good and
    the bad of our medicare system in both Ontario and Nova Scotia.
    Canada's medicare system does not need to be eliminated, it needs to be
    modernized and have some restrictions. I am all for extra billing if it
    helps to eliminate every Tom,Dick & Harry who goes to emergency for a
    cough. In fact, I'm all for extra billing for visits to the Doctor's
    office, as long as this cash doesn't find itself in the Doc's pocket.
    I have been associated with medical and parent associations in both
    Canada and the US, and our Healthcare system is a model to many people
    south of the border.  Their is a lot of money to be made in the
    healthcare profession - who in business wouldn't want to see it
    privitized - think of all the cash too be made. Their is a lot of waste
    still in our medicare system that can be eliminated and I am very aware
    of many programs to do so - but let's not eliminate our medicare.
    
    My vote will definately not go to any party that suggests the
    elimination of universal medicare. Reform has some good ideas, but not
    this one.
    
    Terry
    

    There is so much BS about our healthcare system spread from south of
    the border that we are starting to believe much of it ourselves.  The
    private insurers and other interest groups in the US who are against a
    Cdn style of medical system have deep pockets and have for years been
    misrepresenting our system to US citizens.  Now it appears that we
    Canadians who regularly consume US TV are starting to believe it as
    well.
    
    Fact: We spend less GNP per capita than the US on healthcare, but more
    than other countries with socialized medicine.
    
    Take a look at health statistics like infant mortality, etc and you'll
    find we're better off than the US.  Ok so we don't have CAT scanners in
    every hospital and waiting lists are getting longer.  Well see how long
    the waiting list is in the US if you don't have money or health
    insurance...... 
    
    There's room for improvement, but the US ain't no model to emulate,
    only to pity its citizens who face such an inequitable system and have
    been convinced by years of propaganda that there is no alternative to
    the current system.

    re. -.1

    I agree wholeheartedly!
    
    Glenn

    re .25 & .24
    
    Wow ... me agree with POLAR::RICHARDSON !  The next thing you know
    the Grand Canal will become a reality! :-)
    
    I've experienced US health care first hand.  I have no complaints,
    BUT all I went to the Dr for was some antibiotics.  On the other
    hand, the people I stayed with in CXO had medical problems ... not
    so much major as serious, but they were only poorly insured, and 
    that insurance cost them an arm and a leg.  And they still spent
    an arm and a leg for the care they did get.
    
    One thing that stood out very clearly was the extra diagnostic work
    that Doctors perform down there for things that they are fairly
    sure of.  For example, Colorado Springs is a haven for Strep throat
    infections ... and like 50% of the people I worked with ... I got one.
    I went to the Doctor and after looking down my throat, she took a
    swab for a strep test. No surprise it was positive.  Then I was
    given some antibiotics.
    
    Well, my Canadian Doctor would have looked down my throat, commented
    that strep was rampant and prescribed the antibiotics without the
    test. 
    
    Now, this test was only $15 ... but it cost the insurance company.
    How much more questionable testing is done?  From a discussion with
    my hosts ... lots.
    
    CAT scanners, NMR scanners, and tons of other high tech devices
    sit around under utilized in the US and even then lots of their
    utilization is questionable.
    
    For those who can afford health care in the US, it can be excellent.
    For those who can afford basic health care in the US, it is adequate/
    For those who can't afford even that, it is pitiful.
    
    In Canada, for those who need urgent care, they get good urgent care.
    For those who need routine care, they get good routine care ... it
    may take a while to get it, but usually when they do ... it is good
    care.
    
    The Canadian medical care system's under funding is also a result of
    Doctors who look at what their counterparts south of the border are
    doing and trying to emulate them in a totally different system.  The
    US system does virtually nothing to stop over-charging for services.  
    When the US system becomes more rational, Canadian health services
    will stop trying to emulate the US and focus on their own system.
    
    The same problem occurs in the much maligned UK health system.  There
    has been a constant brain drain of medical professionals (Drs and
    nurses) to the US because it paid better and offered so much
    "opportunity".
    
    The US going to a national medical system will help even out the
    playing field a little and help us all out.
    
    Stuart

    It is a known fact that the Grand Canal has helped reduce the spread of
    the streptococcus bacteria in Canada.

    Stick that in your swab and smoke it!

    8-)