Conference kaosws::canada

    If I have to choose between increased taxes or cutting expenses
    (including laying off government workers and cutting programs), then
    there is no doubt I would opt for cutting expenses.  While I would like
    to believe that all expenditures could be reviewed and cut rationally,
    or that there could be a combination of selective tax increases and
    expense reductions, I think there are too many special interest groups
    to allow this to happen.  Far better to make the tough decisions
    quickly and get on with it...
    
    I'm not an NDPer and think Premier Bob is screwing up big time in
    general, I have to hand it to him for (appearing to?) getting serious 
    about the economy. 
    
    Regards, Garry (who's wife is a nurse and could be suject to Premier
    Boob's down sizing....)

    
    
   ? I'm not an NDPer and think Premier Bob is screwing up big time in
   ? general, I have to hand it to him for (appearing to?) getting serious 
   ? about the economy. 
    
    
    
    	I had assumed that once you got on the Notre Dame drinking team
    you were automatically an NDPer. Guess I was wrong

    The notion that a job on the OPS is a guarenteed job for life is
    complete bunkum, but it is a popular falacy. Interestingly provincial 
    government employees have neither the right to strike or the right to 
    sue for wrongful dismissal (which equates to the right to severance
    pay). I've worked in the civil service, and frankly on average
    government workers are not very different than the people sitting around 
    me now, but by virtue of the fact that they are "public" servants
    people tend to notice the bad apples more and of course the union
    attempts to protect them. 
    
    By way of example I'll tell you about my brother, his office is moving,
    (not one of the moves cancelled) and as part of the move his job is
    evaporating, according to the current contract they have to attempt to
    find him an opening prior to the move, but if they can't he's out of a
    job on moving day, given that there are only about 10 people who do
    what he does in the whole government his only hope is if one of the
    other 9 dies, retires or quits. Some job for life.
    
    Don't get me wrong, there's oodles of fat in the system, but what's
    likely to happen (a 5X5X5 package) isn't going to accomplish much. What
    really needs to happen is structural changes to the way the civil
    service works, the money that is wasted in the name of
    decentralization is horrendous (there are something like 22 agencies of 
    the government that each have fully staffed administrative complements 
    doing things like purchasing, communications (PR), MIS, accounting, HR etc.
    The opportunities for economies of scale by centralizing even some of these
    functions is staggering. There are also opportunites for such econmoies
    where the rubber meets the road, for example licensing, MTO licenses
    drivers, MNR licenses fisherman and hunters, MOE licenses
    exterminators, each one of these fundementally identical processes has
    a complete support environment.
    
    There are lots more, sunsetting out of date legislation, reducing use
    of consultants.... 
    
    I guess what I'm saying is that I think the civil service should bleed
    like the rest of us and this should happen as the logical fallout of
    structural changes to the civil service but that I don't see any hope
    of it happening.     

Norm,

	Your reply seem a little misleading on that jobs-for-life don't exist.
True, there's no such a thing as job-for-life, however, in the government people 
get away with a lot more than in the private sector (in general).

	Everybody probably has a slightly different experience of the gov. 
workers and their attitude to work.  Also, we cannot generalize that every 
ministry or every employee is equally eager to work or if they're all slackers, 
that wouldn't be true/fair.  However, in my brief 2 years + experience I could 
break down the "classification" to 2 groups:  the ones that care about work and 
working together with others like team (buzzzzz words!), and the majority (!) - 
and this was my experience in 3 ministries - that waffle about job fairness, 
equal pay, no pressure, no abuse (typical union buzz words, they make the 
government sound like a concentration camp), but they hardly ever think about 
equal share of workload (I wonder why).  For instance, there was this guy that 
was in a group that's got no real function whatsoever in MIS, about 6-8 people 
as 'support specialists & security group' reading newspapers, magazines all day, 
and when the manager complained to this one guy, his spending far too much time 
on union stuff (that was the only thing the manager really got upset about 
otherwise she was doing the same magazine reading,etc..)  so he got real (!) 
upset - the poor fellow - and started a grievance against his manager on grounds 
of unfair treatment, and would you believe (yes, of course) he won the case, and 
she had to apologize in writing and in words for 'such a mistreatment' so now he 
can go on reading magazines (and you're paying for his salary).  This is just 
one example, and far from extremes, this happens every now & then (frequently).  
And the union is always 'standing by' its loyal members.  Well, when once I 
asked for union help - just out of curiosity - they flatly refused saying that 
I'm only a contractor and should just accept life as it is, even though I HAD TO 
PAY the union dues!  

To summarize this:  there's a lot of dead wood in the government on all levels 
and they all (dead wood only!) hide under the wings of the only ruling authority 
in the government the Union, they run the government.  And the ones that are 
decent workers are without help, since the union mostly supports loudmouth 
members that support their way of life at the work place.

Does this picture seem familiar (there are exceptions I know...) ???

/Tamas.

    I'm all for downsizing the goverment and our "civil servants" where
    ever possible ... however I'm not sure how Bob can really do this...
    He already has contracts with these unions, and now he plans to 
    break them.
    
    Is there a precident for this anywhere ?
    
    Brian V
    
    PS last I heard it was 6x6x6 when did it become 5x5x5 ?
    
    

    The challenge in downsizing the bureaucracy is to not throw the baby
    out with the bath-water.  That is, the challenge is, just like we in
    DEC are currently experiencing, is to not loose valuable employees, but
    the 'dead wood' ( a cruel term, really).  You want to get rid of the
    magazine-reading lay-abouts, not the ones plugging away like you and I.
    
    And another thing, last summer I was renewing my drivers licence, and
    in chatting to the clerk taking my money and picture, asked if they
    could make their hours more flexible (8-4 or 10-6 instead of 9-5) in
    order to better serve us, the customer.  She responded that even though
    they were not public servants themselves, they had to follow 'union
    rules' and work 9-5 only.  Go figure!
    
    Doug

    re: -.1 
    
    Yup, that's what I mean about the structural problems inherent in the
    system and the Union's tendancy to protect those undeserving of
    protection. Frankly there is plenty of capability in the system right
    now to get rid of the magazine reading layabouts but management, as a
    rule doesn't have the necessary gumption to do it.
    
    I have a little experience with VRS, the computer system that supports
    the drivers license offices. These offices are all outsourced, and the 
    contract specifies that if the system goes down the government has to 
    pay a penalty to the contractor. The costs to provide out of hours 
    support to keep the whole mess up would be prohibitive so hours are
    restricted. Now the union may be a contributing factor to this but it's
    not as simple as the clerk put it.  
    
    re: -.2
    
    The government is asking the unions to re-open their contracts, the
    stick they have to encourage them to do this is the fact that the
    government is in a basically untouchable position legally if they do
    arbitrary lay offs. 
    
    5x5x5 is what OPSEU is telling there members they're expecting to be
    asked for. 

They have far too much power but they do not have the intelligence to 
support it.  I - for one - am totally against this whole union business 
as it's set up now.  

My personal experience with them was always only negative.  Their rules 
are not governed by sensible business decisions, common sense, or not 
even humanitarian reasons (like people should have jobs) but only to 
oppose the ruling body, they believe ANARCHY rules and they really don't 
care about "You" as a worker, to them you are just another 'supporting 
person' so they can 'represent' you.  

On a recent union meeting at ... I asked one of the OPS Union hot-shots, 
if they could do (or even try) something about how unfairly they treat 
there contract staff (not the consultants, on payroll! + paying the 
b....y union dues) and once again (just like before) I received some real 
b.s. reply :

	"Yeah, sure you've got a point there, I'll look into this and 
	 will definitely give you a call back..."

the goof didn't even know me or cared to find out what my number was, 
typical!

I think they should ban unions as they are now, and if people do need 
some kind of challenging organization to keep the government operating in 
such a fair manner, they should set up something that actually works, and 
not something that cost loads-o-money but has no positive impact on 
working conditions and fairness.  Besides all that, this anarchistic 
'socialist view' the unions practice is exactly like what I wanted to 
leave behind when I left the Communist Block and went to England.  It 
didn't work in any of the Red-countries, doesn't work in Britain 
(probably the worst).  It's so sad to see that they can exist here too, 
Canada (already better (maybe the best) then most part of the world!!!) 
would be such a nice place without such a 'Mafia' built into the 
Government - I think Unions could be partially blamed for recession by 
keeping unneeded workforce employed at taxpayers cost (besides Bob & 
Brian).

They should spend more on health care & education professionals rather 
than "Health Office & Education Office """""PROFESSIONALS""""" (it's a 
laugh!).

/Tamas.