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Conference kaosws::canada

Title:True North Strong & Free
Notice:Introduction in Note 535, For Sale/Wanted in 524
Moderator:POLAR::RICHARDSON
Created:Fri Jun 19 1987
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1040
Total number of notes:13668

692.0. "Trouble in Somalia" by KAOFS::D_STREET (Virtue is relative) Fri Apr 23 1993 13:04

    In Somalia, a prisoner was beaten to death while in the custody of
    Canadians. Without the whole story it may be early to put blame, but I
    find it hard to understand how it could happen without being a
    criminal act.
    
     It disgusts me that we would send a guy(s) half way around the world
    to help some people, and they end up beating a civilian to death. In
    general (and in Bosnia) our peace keepers are excellent representitives
    to the world for what Canada stands for. I hope these guys get the book
    thrown at them to also show the world what Canada stands for.
    
    						Derek
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692.1CSC32::S_BROOKI just passed myself going in the other direction!Fri Apr 23 1993 13:168
    >         Without the whole story it may be early to put blame, but I
    >find it hard to understand how it could happen without being a
    >criminal act.
    
    So, in your next paragraph you presume them guilty.  Come on Derek
    guilty until proven innocent here too eh ?
    
    Stuart
692.2No content note there Stuart....KAOFS::D_STREETVirtue is relativeFri Apr 23 1993 13:4710
    Stuart,
    
     In you infinite wisdom you deem subjects unworthy of discussion untill
    all the facts are in ?
    
     An unsurpisingly narrow perspective. 
    
     Anyone have some content to add to this note stream ??
    
    								Derek
692.3CSC32::S_BROOKI just passed myself going in the other direction!Fri Apr 23 1993 13:575
    I'm not saying it's unworthy of discussion ... I was concerned that
    you seem to have condemned those involved even, as you admit, before
    all teh facts are in.
    
    
692.4KAOFS::M_COTEI'm a mod, not a rockerFri Apr 23 1993 14:0015


    	I agree with Stuart. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of
    law. One can only surmise what happened to lead to such an event. To 
    judge a man by newspaper accounts, I find a narrow perspective.

    	

    	It should be said with respect to the 'book being thrown', that if
    they are found innocent, they should get a 7 books thrown solute by
    the authorities.

                                                 

692.5POLAR::RICHARDSONSick in a balanced sort of wayFri Apr 23 1993 15:136
    The guilt or innocence will be determined in a military court, there is
    a difference.

    I agree with Stuart too, even though he has a big nose!
    
    Glenn
692.6What do we stand for ?TROOA::DZIALOWSKIFri Apr 23 1993 15:314
    I am sure that the Bosnians in general, Moslems in particular, are
    highly impressed by the quality of the UN peacekeeping service delivery.
    It ranks up there, with the Red Cross inspection of Dachau in the early
    40's....                                                       
692.7re 692.5TROOA::SELMECZIFri Apr 23 1993 15:564
but that military court case should go down at least as honetsly as in "A few 
good man", does the army have the guts to "handle the TRUTH"???

Tamas.
692.8We can't do it by ourselves....KAOFS::D_STREETVirtue is relativeFri Apr 23 1993 16:3215
    >>I am sure that the Bosnians in general, Moslems in particular, are
    >>highly impressed by the quality of the UN peacekeeping service delivery.
    >>It ranks up there, with the Red Cross inspection of Dachau in the
    >>early 40's....
    
     As a general statement the UN could/should do more, but ask the people
    in Sebernicia (sp) what they think of Canadian peacekeepers. you will
    find alot of people alive today (no matter what their opinion) because
    of the Canadians.
    
    I personally think that when one side starts the "ethnic cleansing" stuff,
    it should be a big red flag for the rest of the world to step in and stop
    it. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
    
    						Derek.
692.9"Never Again"VAOU09::BOTMANPieter Botman - Western Canada DISMon Apr 26 1993 13:5510
    Did you catch the news clip of Elie Weisel (holocaust survivor and
    general consciousness raiser) speaking at the dedication of the
    holocaust memorial in New York?  He specifically turned and nagged
    President Clinton.  
    
    [Paraphrasing here:]  Mr President I can't sleep after seeing what's
    going on over in Bosnia - we can't do nothing!!
    
    Pieter
    
692.10???TROOA::SELMECZItestMon Apr 26 1993 15:491
how does this connect to Somalia?
692.12Kim and Stuart sitting in a tree.....KAOFS::D_STREETVirtue is relativeTue Apr 27 1993 14:536
    It appears Kim Cambell agrees with Stuart as well. In the face of
    charges of racism and command breakdown she has set up an inquiry which
    will report after the leadership convention. (what a surprise)
    
    
    							Derek.
692.13She's going down.....KAOFS::D_STREETVirtue is relativeThu Apr 29 1993 17:3015
    On the news last night I heard the guy charged with the beating death
    tried to hang himself. He was unsuccessful. Looks like this case is
    just going to be bad news all the way.
    
     Also heard that the "inquiry" Kim called for will deal with the
    "attitude and training" of the soldiers in Somalia, NOT the specifics
    of the murder case. It is enough to let her claim she can't comment as
    it is under investigation. "Mulrooney in a dress" sounds more and more
    appropriate.
    
    Anybody remember the "peek-a-boo" campaign ? Don't say anything about
    anything, you ahead in the polls and we don't want to offend anybody.
    It would seem Kim is getting the same bad advice.
    
    							Derek
692.14Civilian one day, soldier the nextTROOA::BROOKSMon May 03 1993 16:379
    An important point to consider is that the line between 'civilian' and
    'enemy soldier' is very, very hazy in places like Somalia or the former
    Yugoslavia.  In a war, and that is what it is no matter how you
    paraphrase it, both innocent and guilty people die.  That's life.  (pun
    unintended).  Although fun to speculate and gossip, waiting till all
    the 'facts' are in is the best point to begin discussions, IMHO.
    
    Doug
    
692.15Healthy society many questions, Unhealthy....EICMFG::BINGERWarthogs of the world uniteTue May 04 1993 15:5316
>
>    An important point to consider is that the line between 'civilian' and
>    'enemy soldier' is very, very hazy in places like Somalia
>
      How does 'enemy soldier' come into the discussion? He was in custody.
>
>                Although fun to speculate and gossip, waiting till all
>   the 'facts' are in is the best point to begin discussions, IMHO.
>

      Established facts seem to be, in custody and dead. It is important to
      start asking questions soon before memories get fuzzy. The wider the
      discussion and the questions the healthier the society.
      
      Rgds,
      Steve
692.16more trouble for Kim....KAOFS::D_STREETVirtue is relativeFri May 07 1993 15:547
     Links between racial hate groups and the troops in Somailia made the
    news today.
    
     Kim Cambell was "unaware" of the ongoing investigation into it.
    
    
    							Derek
692.17they've got the nerve..TROOA::SELMECZI< it MUST be a H/W problem... >Fri May 07 1993 18:321
yeah, and the military has ZERO tolerance for racism, right!...
692.18I say clean up the garbage !!KAOFS::D_STREETVirtue is relativeFri May 07 1993 20:4714
    >>yeah, and the military has ZERO tolerance for racism, right!...
    
     Well they SHOULD have zero tolerance, obviously not since the news
    report said there were known KKK followers in the Airborne. It would
    seem to me that being a racist should exclude you from service. Since
    it would be hard to prove, not many would get caught. On the other hand
    if the press can come up with a picture of you doing a "zig hiel"
    infront of a bunch of flags with swasticas (sp) you didn't exactly try
    to hide the fact that you were a racist, and should get the boot (not
    boot camp mind you, the boot)
    
    				These people disgust me.
    
    							Derek
692.19agree!TROOA::SELMECZI< it MUST be a H/W problem... >Fri May 07 1993 21:0214
Derek, Imeant ZERO in a sarcastic way, the way they said it on the news, 
I saw it too and it's pretty scary, that here in this country (in Germany 
I would understand, even thought I do not think that all gremans are like 
that, I'm a bit german too anyway...) people can get away with such 
actions and they can have their own little fan-club, and nobody bothers 
them.  This is sick!  And obviously nobody that could do something about 
it, nobody cares!  To me this only say two things:

	those people are either extremely self oriented (put it mildly)
and/or(!)
	they agree with those nacis!

/Tamas.
692.20typos...TROOA::SELMECZI< it MUST be a H/W problem... >Fri May 07 1993 21:043
sorry about the typos, I was in a hurry,

Over & Out!/Tamas.
692.21new for youseKAOFS::D_STREETVirtue is relativeThu May 13 1993 21:4815
    NEWS UPDATE:  The picture of the army guy infront of the swastika flags
    		was in his ARMY BARRAKS, not a neo-nazi meeting. The Gov.
    		is saying it was a boyish prank. I wouldn't let them take
    		care of my children (if I had any) if that is thier idea of
    		a prank :')
    
    		  The guy in jail for the alleged murder of a Somalian who
    		was found "hanging" has family in Canada saying they don't
    		believe the Government story. The implications are that he
    		either 1. was not found hanging, or 2. was hung by others.
    		I find it hard to believe, but that's what the family is
    		trying to imply.
    
    
    							Derek.
692.22KKK in Kanada ?KAOFS::D_STREETVirtue is relativeThu May 20 1993 14:0517
    Charges of murder and torture have been laid against two "peacekeepers"
    and two more have been charged with torture. First time either charge
    has been laid against a Canadian "peacekeeper". Speculation is rampent
    that this will eventually be tied to racist activity in the Airborne.
    
     On a similer but unrelated note:
    
     I saw on the news that the KKK is trying to expand it's presence in
    Kanada. Just the sight of those hooded goons is enough to make my skin
    crawl. they are trying to expand in Quebec, apperently the message they
    are trying to get out is that they "don't hate Catholics anymore".
    
    I am sure that makes everyone feel alot better. :-(
    
    							Derek.
    
    
692.23KAOFS::J_DESROSIERSLets procrastinate....tomorrowWed May 26 1993 18:296
    Derek,  That's not true, the KKK said they don't hate frogs anymore. 
    Really bad bigots if you ask me, pretty soon they will be admitting
    jews and blacks and even GRAND CANNALERS ;-)
    
    Jean
    
692.24POLAR::RICHARDSONSick in a balanced sort of wayWed May 26 1993 18:545
    >>>    jews and blacks and even GRAND CANNALERS ;-)
    
    I represent that statement!
    
    Glenn
692.25KAOFS::J_DESROSIERSLets procrastinate....tomorrowFri May 28 1993 20:126
    Then make a formal complaint to .....hum....hummm....?????
    
    You know what I mean
    
    Jean
    
692.26US A rejects intoleranceMINOTR::BANCROFTMon Jun 28 1993 17:149
    Well, United States Army presents you with a long list of 
    organizations they consider not politically correct.  One of the
    list entries is the KKK.  You have to certify that you do not belong
    to any of the organizations.  The Hitler Youth (Hitler Jongen) is not
    on the list but members would be in their 60's now, so that is probably
    not a problem.  Last I knew, though, the Abraham Lincoln Division WAS
    still on there! (Spanish Civil war, 1937??).
    
    Politically correct is the only way to go!  Phil