T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
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660.1 | How about some background info? | VAOU09::BOTMAN | Pieter Botman - Western Canada DIS | Tue Feb 09 1993 15:19 | 16 |
| Derek:
What was the stated reason for the survey (I presume it was an official
Digital company survey, required and not voluntary)?
I can speculate that under Quebec's language law, all companies having
offices (over a certain number of employees) must have a francization
certificate. Perhaps this survey is towards this end.
Do you have any concrete evidence that your job requirements will
change to include communications in french, or that your career
path/options have suddenly changed because of language proficiency in
future jobs?
Pieter
|
660.2 | francization certificate = source of racism | KAOFS::D_STREET | | Tue Feb 09 1993 16:56 | 62 |
| The following is the cover letter that came with the survey. In that
there is a multi-year plan to comply with the language requirements of
the Quebec government, I have to assume this information is not just
for the sake of gathering information. I also must assume that in a
situation where Digital is not in complience, I am at risk. (I doubt
they would move tha CTH back to Kanata to asccomodate me)
> Do you have any concrete evidence that your job requirements will
> change to include communications in french, or that your career
> path/options have suddenly changed because of language proficiency in
> future jobs?
The fact that the government is counting French heads is proof enough
of the potential abuse. And besides, it does not matter if I need to
use French in my job, the problem is that I am in Quebec, and don't
speak French. The janitor in our building need not speak French, or for
that matter, could be mute, but will still be included in the stats.
It is just another example of the US vrs. THEM attitude that permiates
Quebec. What would be my risk if the Government decided to prosecute
Digital for non-complience? (alot more than a Francophone) In this case
I would be being persecuted for my culture. This persecution has the
full strength of the law behind it. A fine racist ideal if I ever saw
one (ever hear of the "laws" in South Africa)
Answer me this: What is the purpose of the "francization certificate",
and good luck making it not sound racist.
Derek
LINGUISTIC EVALUATION
You may be aware that as an employer in the Province of Quebec,
Digital is required to implement a Francization Program. This is a
multi-year plan that allows us to comply with the language
requirements of the Quebec Government.
One of the steps in the process is a Linguistic Analysis which
determines the current Language Proficiency of the people who work
in CTH. The results of this analysis are summarized and form the
basis of our discussions with the Quebec Government.
When the first Language Proficiency Questionnaire was circulated,
there were a few individuals who did not complete a Questionnaire
ie. tranfers, new-hires, absentees, etc.
In order to complete our analysis, we are asking you to take a few
minutes to complete the Questionnaire attached and return it to
SOMEONE no later than February 12,'93. Please remember that
this information is retained by Digital and your result are kept
strictly confidential.
If you have any questions or concerns with regards to the process
or Francization in general, please don't hesitate to call SOMEONE
or myself.
Thanks and regards,
ANAME
|
660.3 | francization != RACIAL discrimination | VAOU02::BOTMAN | Pieter Botman - Western Canada DIS | Tue Feb 09 1993 19:00 | 37 |
| Derek:
The cover letter does not paint a complete picture - it does not state
how Digital is using the stats in their discussions with the Quebec
government. It also does not state what other company stats, or info
they present along with the individual stats.
I don't speak for anyone, but having said that:
1. The purpose of francization certificate is to show that a company
operates in french (to whatever degree). Operation in french has
significance in two respects:
o ability of francophones to work inside the company
o ability of the company to provide services to the public
2. Lets separate out the issue of "is french required for a given job"
from the issue of "Should Digital have to answer to any govt on
the issue of language in the company". You have to address the
second issue, it is larger, and it goes to the heart of the Quebec
government's language law. It is attempting to bolster the language
within the province, by ensuring that business operates (in the
respects noted above) in french.
3. The way I see it, racism would be if you were discriminated against
by Digital on the basis of your race, heritage, etc. This would
also apply if Quebec forced Digital to do it. However, the survey
didn't ask about your race, national background, skin colour, etc.
It merely asked about your proficiency in the french language. A
WASP **can** be proficient in french. (By the same token a person
of norman extraction can be poor in french, say in manitoba...)
So you have a lot to prove in order to connect the survey to
racism, or the idea of francization, in my opinion...
Pieter
|
660.4 | According to OXFORD | TRCP39::miller | Bob Miller, DTN: 637-3461 | Tue Feb 09 1993 19:43 | 13 |
| Re: .2
Race n. 1. group of persons or animals or plants connected by a common
descent, posterity of (person); house, family, tribe, or
nation regarded as of common stock; distinct ethnical stock ...
2. descent, kindred, ...
3. class of persons etc. with some common feature (the race of
poets, dandies, etc.)
I do believe that racism can applied in a broader scope than pure
genealogy, but then I am not a lawyer.
|
660.5 | too bad, the Feds beat us to it! | MQOSWS::N_CARDELLA | Father of Tiger | Wed Feb 10 1993 17:17 | 17 |
| About 5 years ago, I answered a survey given out by Digital inquiring
about nationalities and races. The Federal government wanted
statistics on Digital's initiative in hiring different nationalities
and races.
There was no reference to language, but one had to check off whether
one was Canadian, Italian, Greek, Chinese, etc. One of my co-workers
was born in Lebanon, and he fitted into the category of "visible
minority".
The Federal government also wanted to know the mix between men and
women.
I guess this means that, according to Derek's reasoning and assumptions,
the Federal government has institutionalized racism and sexism.
Normand
|
660.6 | apples and oranges are not equal | KAOFS::D_STREET | | Wed Feb 10 1993 17:45 | 17 |
| One should not confuse the admirable goals of affirmative action (which
is an attempt to correct apparent racism) with the goals of the Quebec
government and it's Frenchifying program.
The first is designed to promote the hiring "disadvantaged" persons of any
race, religion, sex....(**minorities** in general).
The second is designed to promote the hiring of the **majority**. If the
Quebec Gov instituted quotas on the number of ENGLISH people, then there
would be a comparison.
These two activities are exactly the oppisite of each other. One
counters racism, the other perpetuates it.
Derek
|
660.7 | Disagree. | MQOSWS::N_CARDELLA | Father of Tiger | Wed Feb 10 1993 18:35 | 30 |
| > One should not confuse the admirable goals of affirmative action (which
> is an attempt to correct apparent racism) with the goals of the Quebec
> government and it's Frenchifying program.
Oh, I understand. When the Feds produce statistics on nationalities,
races, and sexes, then it's "affirmative action".
When Quebec produces statistics on the language spoken at work, then it's
racism.
BTW, "affirmative action" has been one of this federal government's
worst failures.
> The first is designed to promote the hiring "disadvantaged" persons of any
> race, religion, sex....(**minorities** in general).
I see.
> The second is designed to promote the hiring of the **majority**. If the
> Quebec Gov instituted quotas on the number of ENGLISH people, then there
> would be a comparison.
Perhaps the second is simply to congratulate/recognize those companies
who traditionally have worked in English, but who have promoted the French
language in the workplace... the working language of the majority of
Digital's employees and customers in this province.
Normand
|
660.8 | Invite me to the Awards Night, SVP | KAOFS::D_STREET | | Fri Feb 12 1993 13:01 | 15 |
| The difference is that Quebec is "protecting" the majority, the purpose
of afirmative action is to promote the hiring of minorities. If the
concepts of MINORITY and MAJORITY are not clear, I suggest a
dictionary.
>Perhaps the second is simply to congratulate/recognize those companies
>who traditionally have worked in English, but who have promoted the French
>language in the workplace.
And I suppose the police in Quebec set up radar traps to pull over the
people driving the speed limit and congratulate them. The purpose of
the Frenchifying program is clear, MAKE FRENCH THE WORKING LANGUAGE IN
QUEBEC. At it's heart is racism, because it disadvantages minorities.
Derek
|
660.9 | Let's get some clarification here .... | CSC32::S_BROOK | | Fri Feb 12 1993 13:58 | 10 |
| Is putting minorities at a disadvantage, by whatever means, actually racism ?
I understand what you're driving at which is why I started the earlier note
questioning whether Nationalism is inherently racist. In making this
suggestion, you are implying that it is. I leave it to you to show that it is
(and complex anecdotal evidence won't cut it, because then we'll be into a
circular argument).
Stuart
|
660.10 | Is prejudice = racist ? Yes!! | KAOFS::D_STREET | | Fri Feb 12 1993 14:29 | 12 |
| Well Stuart, you win a prize. I am wrong. The problem is one of
PREJUDICE (Detriment caused to a person by the unfavorable conviction of
others, to bias, preconceived preference). Whereas RACISM is "the
notion one's own ethnic stock is superior".
I suggest in modern usage the two terms are closely related, if not
interchangeable. As in "preconceived preference for one's own ethnic
stock"
There can be no argument that the "program" is prejudicial, which is a
neighbor to racist.
DErek
|
660.11 | | CSC32::S_BROOK | | Fri Feb 12 1993 17:09 | 18 |
| But they are not saying that their ethnic stock is better ... they
just prefer people who live and work in the province to speak French
and have enacted some policies to enforce that.
There may well be some Francophone elitists who are racist, however
I think you've taken too much of a leap to say that prejudice and
racist are equivalent.
Some francophones are prejudiced against non-francophones because of
a fear for the survival of their culture and language ... others are
prejudiced because it simply is not their native tongue, in much the
same way most anglos are. These are not racist ideals.
If you think that the two terms are synonymous, then you shouldn't
mind the term being levelled at you too, because as Anglos, we are
definitely prejudiced on the whole to our own.
Stuart
|
660.12 | Forget words, get the point. | KAOFS::D_STREET | | Fri Feb 12 1993 17:42 | 4 |
| Is a racist not prejudiced? This is splitting hairs. Discrimination
based on anything is not acceptable.
Derek.
|
660.13 | Words can cause wars or stop them ... | CSC32::S_BROOK | | Fri Feb 12 1993 21:00 | 7 |
| Indeed a racist is prejudiced ... but not all prejudice is racist
and that is the bottom line. It may seem like splitting hairs, but
calling people racist is a pretty serious allegation. Calling them
discriminatory is as well, but carries far fewer overtones.
Stuart
|
660.14 | we'll never agree. | MQOSWS::N_CARDELLA | Father of Tiger | Mon Feb 15 1993 13:20 | 23 |
660.15 | | CSC32::S_BROOK | | Mon Feb 15 1993 13:37 | 34 |
| But Normand, the APPEARANCES are that Anglophones are not welcome in
Quebec ... that this apparently extensive use of English should be
reduced to preserve the French language and culture of Quebec, so that
the Quebcois would not be influenced from "within" ... it being bad
enough that they must be so influenced from without. Now I did say
APPEARANCES are that way ... from anglophones inside and outside of
Quebec. Now the question is, how much reality is there in those
appearances ?
An example ...
As a non-Canadian Anglophone, I was not able to move to Quebec when
the CSC moved here because I could not get my children educated in
English. For one of my children, this was very important, because
she is struggling in school in her native tongue. To move her to a
school where she had to learn in French would have been a disaster.
Yes, I know this law is under review again, but then it has been
under review many times, and it still hasn't changed.
There are lots of other examples ... sign laws ... French in business
laws ... and so on that reinforce those appearances. For some people
those appearances are so strong, that they would swear that Quebec
political policy is exclusionary. Now you can cite examples of
flourishing English culture in Quebec ... but these are existing and
not new. If they didn't currently exist, would they be promoted today?
Some would have their doubts ... I certainly do.
So, this note is NOT nonsense ... it expresses some very real concerns
and when looked at in a very broad way, you see what are very strong
discriminatory practices. I certainly wouldn't call them racist
practices ... but I can certainly see why they think so.
Stuart
|
660.16 | | CSC32::S_BROOK | | Mon Feb 15 1993 13:44 | 13 |
| Normand,
One further thing ... to bring up the Native plight is only to throw
up a smokescreen. It is a common practice for people who are
attempting to defend their own civil rights problems to show that
somebody else is worse off. It's almost like an admission that there
really is a problem!
Let's not get into the subject of the natives in this note please.
If anyone wants to discuss native civil rights, please start a new
note.
Stuart
|
660.17 | Dual culture is everywhere..... | VAOU09::BOTMAN | Pieter Botman - Western Canada DIS | Mon Feb 15 1993 23:48 | 41 |
660.19 | Medicare: great until you need it! | KAOOA::HASIBEDER | Good tea, nice house | Tue Feb 16 1993 16:41 | 11 |
| RE: .18
I agree on most of your points, except health care. In any other
province, I can get a blood test same day in a clinic, but unless I'm
willing to pay a "user fee", here in the Hull, I have to book an
appointment at the CHRO (hospital) and wait 6-8 weeks. The time delay
is even worse for CAT scans, mammograms, etc. Having lived in 5
different provinces, my experience is Quebec's system is the slowest
and worst.
Otto.
|
660.20 | that's possible | MQOSWS::N_CARDELLA | Father of Tiger | Tue Feb 16 1993 17:09 | 19 |
660.21 | I agree to disagree on this one... | KAOOA::HASIBEDER | Good tea, nice house | Tue Feb 16 1993 17:30 | 10 |
| No, not a private clinic, but the public one in Aylmer (that's where I
live). I just find it so strange, since across the river in Ottawa
it's no problem, and hasn't been in other cities and towns across
Canada. I also am speaking from my mother's experience, she was
diagnosed in the mid-seventies as being one of the 10 worst cases of MS
in Quebec, and has had to suffer from what I consider second rate
medical care ever since, in Hull, Montreal, and Cowansville (the last
is understandable).
Otto.
|
660.22 | OK, we disagree. | MQOSWS::N_CARDELLA | Father of Tiger | Tue Feb 16 1993 18:13 | 8 |
660.23 | It's the same everywhere. | KAOT01::M_MORIN | Le diable est aux vaches! | Thu Feb 18 1993 12:13 | 19 |
|
I tend to agree with Norman on the health care issue.
Usually when there are problems they are localized, doesn't matter where you
live in Quebec or any other province.
I have had bad experiences at the Ottawa General as much as my wife had good
ones at CHRO in Hull when she gave birth. The reverse is also true. My inlaws
who are elderly constantly complain about the length of time it takes to get
anything done in the Niagara/Toronto region.
I can't say that one system is any better than the other. They're probably
the same and usually dependent on who you deal with, who your doctor is, what
your problem is, where you live, etc...
In any case, I don't think we're a bit off topic here and the health care issues
could probably better be discussed in another note.
/Mario
|
660.24 | ... | MQOSWS::N_CARDELLA | Father of Tiger | Thu Feb 18 1993 19:37 | 71
|