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Conference kaosws::canada

Title:True North Strong & Free
Notice:Introduction in Note 535, For Sale/Wanted in 524
Moderator:POLAR::RICHARDSON
Created:Fri Jun 19 1987
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1040
Total number of notes:13668

632.0. "Broker/Lawyer, any good ?" by EICMFG::NGUYEN () Thu Nov 12 1992 14:24

	Hi,
    
	I would like to hear your opinion about and/or your experience
    	with house brokers.
    
	To my understanding, you need their service at buying an housing
	estate as they are far more aware of offers and experienced with
    	the paper war in the 1st instance.  For the 2nd instance, I guess
	you may then have to go to a lawyer.

	Now, do you think that if you had time and patience to study the
    	offers around and to fight against the paper work later, you could
    	waive the services of the broker and even of the lawyer ?  I just
    	think that without the commission fee, I could eventually negotiate
    	the selling price more down and possibly save some more money for
    	the lawyer.
    
    	Any input is appreciated.
    
    	Quoc Nguyen
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632.1KAOFS::S_BROOKThu Nov 12 1992 15:1543
    You could potentially do without a real estate agent to buy or sell
    a house ... but you could only buy a houuse that was "For Sale by
    Owner".  Any house listed by an agent cannot be purchased privately
    until after the listing expires ... and moreover if the seller sells
    to you after the listing expires and the agent can prove that you were 
    introduced to the house because of the listing, then the  seller will 
    be hit for the fees anyway.  If you make an offer on an agent listed 
    house, then your negotiating is done through the seller's agent, and 
    he/she becomes in effect your buyer's agent too.  The seller is 100%
    obligated to refer you to his agent unless you have an agent acting
    for you.
    
    Also, the seller pays the real estate fees from his proceeds.  Most
    people selling privately will ask the same, if not more than an
    agents listing price on the grounds that they will be forced to
    negotiate down by the amount of the agents fees anyway!  After all,
    they are selling privately, not to give the buyer a better deal,
    but to not pay the commission themselves ... i.e. they want a bigger
    piece of the pie.
    
    Dealing without a lawyer can be even more difficult because the
    vendor will probably use a lawyer and he may refuse to deal with
    other than a lawyer, and the mortgage lender will absolutely require
    a lawyer, which you'll have to pay anyway, and you can be sure
    he will charge significantly more if he is not acting for you as
    the purchaser as well.  Also getting your lender to accept you
    working without a lawyer may be hard.  Your lender may also require
    you to purchase title insurance if you do not have a lawyer to
    do your conveyancing.
    
    Add to that, the fact that you'll need a title search done by
    a title searcher who will probably charge you more because lawyers
    will get volume discounts.
    
    Bottom line is that yes, you can do without a Real Estate agent,
    but you limit the number of properties available to look at and
    you will probably not get the bargain you hoped for.
    
    Yes you can do without a lawyer, but you may be subject to lots
    of hassles and running around and bills from other people
    involved that make it not worth the effort.
    
    Stuart
632.2ThanksEICMFG::NGUYENMon Nov 16 1992 14:0917
	Stuart,               
    
	Thanks for your reply.  I questioned myself before quite a lot
	as friends had told me that some did the whole buying deal by
    	themselves.  Unfortunately, I did not get the details of their
    	profit/loss for the spent efforts.
    
	My question partly came from after I had dealt with 2 real estate
    	agents.  I observed that they also studied ads, drove around and
    	looked at the selling panels in front of the objects.  They however
    	told me that just they are able to arrange appointments to visit
    	the objects.  

	Now I am more informed.
    
	Regards,
	Quoc Nguyen
632.3KAOFS::S_BROOKMon Nov 16 1992 15:3446
    Quoc,
    
    I looked into selling myself and do the legal work myself for
    purchase and sale.  I worked out that because I was unfamiliar with
    the little details of the system, although I knew all the needed
    steps, it would take me about 24 -30 working hours at assorted times
    and that is living in the same city ... Then I considered that if
    things didn't go smoothly, if I was late for closing, I could be
    sued.  (Lawyers are paid the big bucks to make sure closing happens
    the way it should and take all kinds of risks away).  Too risky!
    
    On my last sale and purchase with new mortgage, I paid about $1200
    in legal professional fees.  There were other disbursements that
    I would have had to pay anyway, so I don't count those.
    
    If I had to pay the banks lawyer for the mortgage separately, I'd
    have paid around $600.  So, I would paid around $750 in legal related
    fees and used say 25 hours directly of my own time plus a lot of 
    gasoline and downtown parking fees!   In cash, I'd probably have
    saved maybe $350-400, but if my own time was worth say $15 per hour
    that would be $375 ... so I've saved NOTHING and potentially cost
    something too!
    
    As to real-estate agents ... they do more than just drive around.
    They use the MLS (Multiple Listing Service) computer to determine
    what homes are available.  They drive by lots of homes to get a
    better idea of what the home is really like.  Often the picture
    stored in the computer or in their listings book isn't very good
    to get an accurate idea of the property.  They will also drive by
    "For Sale by Owner" houses.
    
    If you've been with agents who have to look at all the houses like that
    then it implies that maybe they are not familiar with the neighbourhood
    you are looking in ... maybe you should consider a different agent
    who is.
    
    The agent will also do the negotiating for you, removing your emotions
    from the negotiating table.  Negotiating a house price can be a VERY
    emotional business.
    
    As I mentioned, when you buy without an agent, you may actually be
    using an agent ... the seller's agent!  The only real private deal
    is where you buy a house that is being sold without an agent and there
    are not many of thosee.
    
    Stuart
632.4Thanks...EICMFG::NGUYENFri Nov 20 1992 10:235
    Stuart,
    
    Thanks a lot again for your additional reply.  I really appreciated it.
    
    Quoc Nguyen