Conference kaosws::canada

Let me explain myself again.  Read attentively now.

In my opinion, the only people who are knowledgeable enough to make a proper
judgement on whether or not Quebeckers should call themselves Quebecker first
or Canadians first are the people who have lived there for a reasonable amount
of time.

I'm not saying that it's right or wrong if you're a Quebecker to say that you're
a Quebecker first or Canadian first.  It's your right to say whatever you want.

But if you've never lived in Quebec then you likely don't know what it is to
be a Quebecker and you probably don't know what Quebeckers are all about.  The
English media certainly doesn't portray the French Quebec culture the way it
really is.


If you ask me why I tend to say I'm a Quebecker 1st, simple.  As a Frenchmen,
I'm attached to my culture.  My culture is my province, not my country.  I have
travelled accross the country (except the maritimes) and lived in Ontario many
years.  I have rarely met anyone who identifies with my culture.

/Mario

    I'm an extra-continental, extra-english and extra-french culture
    foreigner, having lived in Quebec for a little less than a year
    (spread over some years), having been in Anglo-Canada during those
    times for some weeks and having lived and worked in the US for more
    than 2 years combined. 
    Regarding the topic of this note I see a big difference (neutral
    statement, although I have my preferences, naturally). I feel
    that this difference should continue to exists as strongly as it is.
    Defined cultural differences make the world exciting and enjoyable.
    I would not like to see Montreal eventually go the way New Orleans
    had to go.
    And definitely only the people of Quebec have the right to define
    their cultural (and eventually political) identity. And in the frame-
    work of this right only they (and Bosnia and Croatia and Slovakia ..and..)
    have the right to give up some of this right for the sake
    of, for example, a more reasonable geopolitical or
    economical/ecological entity. If they choose so and if that makes
    sense. That is how I would aaproach conlicts like that. 

    RE: .3
    
    Interesting, Jean.  You have made me think about the terms.  Again, I
    was born and raised in Quebec, and DENIED access to French schools.
    
    That aside, I was never and will never be "Quebecois", as I am not of
    French heritage.  I have been, and currently am again, a Quebecker, as
    I live in the province.  Culturally, I am of Austrian descent, but am
    fully Canadian by birth and choice.  Even my parents, who were born in
    Austria, consider themselves Canadian first, as this is their chosen
    country (They've lived exclusively in Quebec since 1952).
    
    So, you point is well taken, the terms we use mean different things,
    and should be chosen as carefully as possible.
    
    (BTW, I think "Quebecios" in the title is a typographical error).
    
    Otto.

    re .7
                              
    I realize this is asking a lot, but I would be extremely interested in
    reading the English translation of this article.  

    JM - seeking to understand

    1. the title is wrong because I am dyslexic (and a bad speeler). Please
    accept an apology from a lowly Anglophone who is trying to understand
    why being a Canadian is so bad.
    
    2. Could someone please paraphrase the .-1 note so that I can
    understand why I sould be calling Jean paranoid. From what little
    French I understand I think he (the article's author) is saying that
    the Francophones outside of Quebec are speaking English too much. I
    will reserve further comment untill I get a better understanding of the
    article.
    
    							Derek.

    I will fix the title ... but without accents for those whose terminals
    cannot cope with the multi-national character set.
    
    I think what Jean was trying to give an example of is simply that
    the Franco-culture of this group of people who should supposedly
    be striving to maintain their culture in very much English SW Ontario
    cannot even survive inside their french language schools.  Therefore
    these people cannot begin to hope to maintain their franco-culture.
    
    He is right.  They cannot maintain their franco-ancestral culture.
    He is right ... we will call him paranoid.
    
    BUT the crux of the matter is that it is an *ancestral* culture that
    he is trying to preserve.  This is conservatism (non-political) in its
    most fervant form.  Look at L'office de la Langue francais in Quebec.
    It's mandate is to preserve the french language promoting the language
    and inventing french words for foreign (predominantly english) new
    words.  Similarly with l'acadamie francaise in Paris.
    
    Cultures change ... they cross pollinate ... there are local cultures.
    In this world of mass communication, we see cross pollination of
    culture like we have never experienced before.  The question is
    "Is it right to resist cultural change?"  or should we be promoting
    the best things of our cultures to ensure that these things will
    survive into the developing global culture.
    
    There is no question that we will continue to have some regional
    cultures and, yes, some of them will become seem like cultural
    oddities, like the Cajun and Creole cultures.  But for all that these
    cultures are oddities, they are also now developing and being seen as
    other than the "oddity" by promotion ... not by legislation.  Sure,
    they've lost a lot into the American culture, but look at what they
    are GIVING to the American culture.
    
    The Quebecois have GIVEN lots of things to Canadian culture, that set
    up apart from Americans and Britons.  Conversely the other cultures
    that form Canada have given a lot of things to the Quebec culture that
    the separatistes are rejecting ... now somewhat after the fact.
    
    Culture is dynamic and the sooner we ALL realize this; the sooner we
    all accept this; the sooner we all work on this basis, the sooner we
    will be capable of building a true multi-cultural Canada.
    
    Stuart

    I'm sorry I don't have the time to translate the article, (in fact I'm
    certain I would make quite a few mistakes, so better to wait for
    someone more proficient than I)... but I couldn't help noting a few
    things about the article, the tone, the anecdotes...
    
    
    o the author is exploring an "environment", taking a snapshot of the 
      circumstances of the small town outside Windsor.  To gauge a culture
      or cultural trends based on the environment won't be very accurate
    
    o you can't expect the kids in the french schools to act as though
      they are in a french society at large because they aren't.  This
      covers many of the somewhat melancholy musings of the author, from
      speaking english in a french school, to calling Mom up to "come and
      get me".  Face it, a small town in Windsor, even a french school
      doesn't constitute a society/and environment.
    
    o toujours la honte - "Shame", and pride are quick to surface, be it
      in a little town in SW Ont, or in other ways, it surfaces in politics
      right from inside Quebec ("if we do not get more powers, we
      will be humiliated!!").  
    
    How human this article is, the sentiments are all too understandable-
    sort of "a visit to the last outpost of civilization, where the fabric
    is unravelling, and culture is dying".  Too bad this has to distort 
    the discussions about Canadians living together.  The article is
    about immigrants, living in another society.  Canada is composed of
    many societies, the societies co-existing, and people co-existing.
    
    Pieter

    It's too bad that the author didn't go to Casselman (outside of
    Ottawa). He would have found a thriving French culture in Ontario. They
    have a very well respected theatrical society (in French), when town
    events are advertised with banners and such, they are in French. NOT
    bilingual. All of the stores interact in French (unless you respond in
    English) I worked there for a year, and found that the Franco-Ontarian
    culture is quite vibrant. But I suppose that would not have made the
    author's point, so it is a bad example.
    
     I respect what you had to say Mario about being a Quebecois does not
    automatically make you disrespectfull of being Canadian, or a
    seperatist. I will try to be more tolerant of that point of view. I
    have to wonder though, how many other "Quebecois First" share your
    opinion.
    
     I would also say that if the culture of Quebec was reduced to the
    level of a Cajun, I would be right in there with my friends the
    Quebecois in fighting for the cause. I have been to Louisiana, and it
    is shamefull (yes shamefull) how the French culture has deteriorated
    there. The fact that it has surrvived in Canada should be an indication
    to the French people in this country that there is respect for their
    cultural rights. The problem comes in determining how to empower
    Francophones to ensure their cultural identity. I strongly believe that
    isolationisim is unhealthy both poitiacally and culturally. Look at the
    recent Aids affair in France. One of the reasons that people were
    infected with tainted blood was because the people in charge waited for
    a testing system to be developed in France. This type of attitude can
    only be viewed as stupid.
    
    In my opinion the Francophones in Quebec should reach out to the
    Francophones outside Quebec, and help them maintain their culture, not
    isolate themselves and leave the only remaining Francophones in North
    America to be swallowed up by the vastly more numerous Anglophones. In
    this light, I think an attitude of being a French-Canadian would be more
    helpfull in maintaining a French presence in NA. That way the people of
    Ontario, New Brunswik, Maitoba, and Saskchewan (yes there is a definit
    presence there as well) could be included rather than excluded.
    
     But then again, if the agenda is to seperate rather than maintain
    culture, then why should Qubecois care about their cousins in the ROC.
    
    						Derek.

    From my vantage, I see four kinds of separatistes.
    
    1.  Those like Jean, who are paranoid about the preservation of the
        ancestral culture.
    
    2.  Elitists who would have any province or state separate for
        the sake of financial / economic / whatever reasons.
    
    3.  Politicians who are seeking the glory of creating a new state
        and taking advantage of the sentiments stirred up by the first
        group.
    
    4.  Those people who have been rallied to the cause by stirring the
        stirring up of their emotions by groups 2 and 3.
    
    
    I leave it to you to draw your own conclusions as to the real reasons
    for separation.
    
    Stuart

    So, all of europe (now especially eastern and south-eastern) also is
    paranoid about 'ancestral culture'. That is pretty strong wording.
    Equally strong wording would be to say that people who joke about
    'ancestral culture' just dont know what culture is. And because
    this might be so (I think in very many cases it is so), there is
    not much room for discussion about cultural issues if one side
    simply lacks a whole and essential dimension. Only in this state
    of mental fatness there seems to be no room for the slightest
    imagination that other societies (like Quebec) might not wish to
    drown in the shallow waters of 'melting pots' or 'multicultural
    societies' (of course english speaking: how about a worlwide
    french or german speaking 'pot'?, would that disturbe you?), which,
    by definition meet at the lowest common denominator (no culture at
    all, business and other shallow interests like Hollywood/Disney
    entertainment prevailing).
    The cultural definition process like in europe is nasty and bloody, but it 
    might
    be peanuts compared to the breakdown of the failing 'melting-pot'
    concept, which , ironically, is really a uni -(un)culturally dominated
    entity. People, who get screwed by this phony mechanism start to realize
    that, LA (and interesting enough also Toronto) was just the little 
    beginning.
    I dont blame Quebec to wish to get away from that.

    Rainer,  what on earth are you talking about ?????
    
    I was not ridiculing anything ...  I understand the desire to
    maintain one's culture ... I understand the ultra-conservative
    feelings ... I have them myself ...  BUT I AM NOT afraid of
    cultural change.  I accept it as a part of life and living.
    Cultural change is inevitible.  So the important thing is to
    promote those parts of your culture that are important to you
    so that they survive the cultural change.
    
    Referring to ancestral culture, I was not referring specifically
    to the culture of one's ancestors if you read the context.  I was
    referring to a non-changing culture ... 
    
    I know the term "ancestral culture" could be read as "heritage
    culture"  but those two are different.  Immigrants to Canada often
    partake in "heritage culture" by attempting to preserve their
    home country cultures in Canada.  This is NOT ancestral culture
    or at least what I was referring to.
    
    I am a part of a dying culture ... the culture of the English
    (as in from Britain) in Canada.  I am forever working to promote
    certain important parts of my culture ... An example is what I
    consider the butchery of my language by educated people ...  I
    try to ensure that people are aware of gross mistakes, in as polite
    a way as I can.  But my language is changing and I must accept that.
    Why should my language stay the same ?
    
    Stuart

    "... I must accept that". No! I think I understand what you
    are saying about the decline of languages, the same is true for
    my mother tongue (partly due to stupid anglicisms/americanisms).
    And it sure does belong in this context.
    
    But I dont agree that we must accept wrong developments just
    because they are accepted and transported by the stupid majority
    worldwide. It is time to become arrogant and agressive against
    the mechanisms, transporters and profiteurs of mediocricy
    (sp?), so that scumbags like Mich. Jackson and Madonna cannot be
    sold as 'cultural figures', as heralds of a new unified world-'culture'.
    
    To maintain cultural/national differences is an important part of
    that struggle. If you have the urge to keep your mother language
    clean, then you should have no problems if others want to do the
    same and a little more, keep their culture. And only 'they' (e.g.
    Quebec) can decide how they do it, because only 'they' understand
    and feel what constitites their culture and what threatens it.
    

    I'll say this again and again and I'll shout it from the rooftops
    if need be ...
    
    You cannot build a wall around a culture to protect it.  You cannot
    legislate the protection of language or culture. To do this is to
    force your culture into stagnation which is probbaly more devastating
    to the people and culture in the long term than change.
    
    You must promote culture to give it strength.
    
    In famous words taken from sport ... "The best defence is a good
    offence".
    
    

    re .17
    
    Rainer, I agree that there is a lot of cultural mediocrity out
    there and that is why culture must be promoted and why the best
    of cultures has to this day survived the onslaught of mediocrity.
    
    Take literature ...  Shakespeare survives whereas the popular but
    otherwise banal romance novel doesn't.  Popularity at a particular
    time does NOT guarantee survival.
    
    Take music ...  Mozart survives ... but there are hundreds of
    pop songwriters whose songs enjoyed momentary success that are
    never heard of again.
    
    There are hundreds of examples.
    
    Banal cultural influences don't survive and there is a lot of
    banality in this world, whether in the USA or Canada or wherever.
    
    Paranoia will not help a culture survive ... promotion will.
    
    Stuart

    Stuart,
    
    You might also like to add to your shout:
    
    If you want understanding, cooperation and mutual respect from other
    cultures, you shouldn't pass laws that clearly discriminate against
    other cultures...
    
    Garry

    SET HAT /MODERATOR
    
    The subject matter in this topic and a couple of parallel related
    topics is *very* emotive to us all, whatever our position.
    
    Please be extremely careful when you write replies to avoid what
    could be construed as personal attacks.
    
    We've had some good and interesting ideas expressed here.  Let's
    ensure that we continue to express ideas and exsure we comment on
    those ideas and not attack the person who presented the idea through
    an angry response.
    
    Please re-read your response before you post it.
    
    If I read a response that goes too far, I will delete the note and
    return it to you by mail and if you wish you may take it up with
    me by mail only.
    
    SET HAT /NOMODERATOR
    
    Stuart

    Is there any mention of the Grand Canal in this series?
    
    Just curious,
    
    Glenn

 I am leary of attitudes that will support anything to achieve an end. The 
expression "the end justifies the means" is (in most of the world) no longer
acceptable. The means can often cause injustices that equal the original
problem. (ie. French is loosing it's hold in Quebec, so we will inhibit the
rights of other groups to protect it) Another expression comes to mind, 
"Two wrongs don't make a right".

If, as you suggest, Canada really wanted to "stamp out French
culture", it would have happened long before now. In the States, people of 
French decent do not even pronounce their names "properly". The lady infront of
me in line this morning was "Tess-ee-er", spelt Tessier, another American I have
met, Cl-ow-teer, was spelt Cloutier. There is a case of lost culture. Although
some Francophones are not happy with the cultural erosion they percieve, I don't
think a case can be made for systematic dismanteling of the culture. With two
bilingual provinces (yes Manitoba is legally bilingual) and a French only
province, plus other provinces that provide essential services in French 
(including education and court systems), and a federal government committed to
bilingualisim, it is without a doubt inacurate to say Canada has it "in" for
French people.
    
I would like to point out that being English does not make me
automatically ignorant or uncaring for the French culture. Just as
Mario pointed out being Quebecois does not make him against or afraid
English culture.
    
To prove my point:
    
When in College, I was the Vice-President of the Student Union, member
of the executive, check signing athority, and senior member of the
Board of Directors. It just so happens that the college was 20% French
(meaning courses were conducted in French) During my tenure, a radical
Francophone student got it into his head that the school needed a
"Cultural Animator". Due to the diverse cultures in Canada I was
interested in the idea. When I asked if this position (paid for by the
Student Union) would include lets say Japaneese paper folding as an
event, I found what he really meant was a "French Cultural Animator".
The reasons were that the Francophone students were not as well
represented as he felt they should be.
As it turns out, in my position as Vice-President for ALL the students,
I agreed with him. I suggested that the cultural animator was not the best
way to go. It was a staff position that could be cut by future Boards of
Directors, and had no real power (ie. no vote on the Board of Directors).
I suggested a permanent seat on the Board of Directors designated to
represent the Francophones in the school. (They could have run for any
office, but I felt this would garentee a voice on the Board) 
    
What a surprise, I was trashed by the young zealot for not doing what he
asked for, even though there was a a case to be made that I offered a
stronger voice for the French students. I was asked to refrain from
further comment by the President.
    
The position was created, a great victory for the Francophone cause.
The next year it was eliminated in an attempt to cut the budget (I was
no longer on the Board), and the SAME guy was now demanding a seat on
the Board of Directors to represent the French students (sound
familiar?). Now there was no political will to do it (ie. Vice-President
pushing for it) and it never happened.
    
The morals of this story are many:
    
1. People of the other culture can be sympathetic to anothers cause.
2. By excluding the other culture you can exclude powerful allies.
3. As an English person, don't try to help a French zealot because
   they won't appreciate the help even when you are right.
4. As a French person, do not depend on zealots to promote your cause,
   as they tend to be blind to the contributions others can make.
5. Be careful what you ask for, you might not like it when you get it.
    
    
    							Derek
    (sympathetic to Francophones but will not go into politics again)
    

    Derek,
    
    Re -1. I don't see the need for the words "English" or "French" when
    you summarized the morals of your story. I think they apply to peoples
    of any race or culture.
    
    Ted. 

    
    Hi, 
    	Just a little point here....
    
    More than a year ago I visited a small country island called Mauritius
    (...and your are wondering then what am I doing in this notes file..).
    
    Well this small island was under French rule for over a century before
    the French gave it away to the British. The people on the island
    originate from India and Africa. The people now speak French primarily
    though the official language is English. Most Indian's (origin) speak
    French with a Hindi accent and most African's (origin) speak Afrikanas
    with a French accent again. But most business is conducted in English.
    The people of the Island have a great pot-pourri going on there and
    live a great life.......and they lived happly ever after.......
    
    Has anyone thought of the Quebec/Canadaian problem from this angle..
    Just a little curious....!!!
    

    Re -.1
    
    Mind you there was peace in South Africa in the fifties, those nasty
    flemmish in Belgium did not raise a ruckus and you knew you had an
    empty seat in the front on a crowded bus in Louisiana, were those not
    the good 'old days!
    
    Jean
     

     The comparison of the plight of Blacks in South Africa, and Southern
    States to the situation experienced in Canada by Fracophones is
    rediculous.
    
    							Derek.

    The similarity was that everything "looked" ok in ALL these places
    until the opressed majority started to take the place they deserve. 
    And by opressed, I do not imply that our condition is anything
    comparable to the black majority in South Africa, still when a minority
    controls the majority, there is opression.
    
    I am sure there are some people who regret the days they had the
    "right" to deceide the fate of their underlings, the "right" to play
    god to their servants.  Whether this "right" was of life and death or
    just keeping them from ever reaching controlling positions in society,
    it is not a peer to peer relationship.
    
    
    Jean
    

    There are always majority groups and minority groups ... nothing
    is going to change that ... The Quebecois are a minority group in
    Canada ... one of many.  Ontarians are a minority group in Canada.
    Nova Scotians are a minority group in Canada.  The Acadians are
    a minority group in Canada.
    
    The principle of a federation is to accept that as a minority group
    there are some things that will be have to be sacrificed in terms
    of bowing to a majority for the overall better of all in the
    federation.
    
    Quebec is not the united group it appears to be ... it too is a
    federation of minorities ... Acadians, Montrealers, West Quebecois
    Anglophones ... Each has given up something of its uniqueness in
    the province of Quebec.  Should that status quo remain the same.
    After all, the aboriginals in many parts ofthe province say they
    do not want to be part of an independent Quebec.  But Parizeau
    reckons that all the abriginal lands belong to Quebec.  Who's
    oppressed now ?
    
    Stuart

    Jean,
    
    >>when a minority controls the majority, there is opression.
    
     Which minority is "oppressing" Quebec? As I said, the comparison is
    not valid (as the confused rebuttle indicates).
    
    As a francophone, you have all the rights I have, plus the right to put up
    signs in French ANYWHERE in Canada (I can't express myself in my native
    language in Quebec) This equality (almost) would eliminate the problems
    in the areas you mentioned. 
    
    Q.Why is it not good enough for the Seperatists?
    A.Because they want to run their own country. "Oppression" is just a
      handy way to get non-megalomaniacs to join the cause.  
    
    
    							Derek.

Boy

I can't wait to see a reply from Derek on this one...

    Jean is correct. The Francophones in Quebec were discriminated against
    in the workforce until the advent of Bill 22 brought about by the
    Bourassa government in the early seventies. I think that it's good to
    be bilingual in Quebec, certainly smart to be. However, now, if you are
    a unilingual Francophone, you are no longer discriminated against
    because you can't speak English.

    Jean is also correct when he says that English Canada does not
    understand what the French in Quebec have had to put up with in the
    past. I guess I grew up bilingual enough in Quebec to understand this.

    What Quebec needs is another Sir Guy Carleton, an English person to win
    the support of the French and fight for their interests.

    As for the dark ages, could some one tell me when humanity was ever
    enlightened? If we think we are now, we're fooling ourselves.

    Glenn 

If I'm not mistaken, Sir Guy Carleton was ennobled as Baron Dorchester.  And it
was Dorchester Street in Montreal that was renamed Boulevard Rene-Levesque. 
Handy symbolism:  many Quebecois don't want anybody but themselves looking after
their interests, particularly an Anglo.

What Quebec needs is time for the bitterness of memories of the time when
French-speaking Quebeckers were at the bottom of the economic heap in their own
country to moderate a bit, and a little more historical perspective to develop.
(Systemic discrimination on the part of the English-speaking business
establishment was reinforced by the reactionary attitudes of the Church and the
Duplessis-era government, as I understand it.)  Hopefully attitudes will soften
somewhat, in time.  Of course, there are various interests trying to exacerbate
things....

-Stephen

    As a matter of fact, I have been discriminated against. By French
    people. I considered this to be an ignorant attitude, and try not to
    let it effect the way I treat other French people. I have lived for 18
    years in Ottawa, and have seen many job oppertunities pass me by
    because I was not bilingual. If I was like some people, I would blame
    all my problems on the French. I however looked at the job
    requirements, and concluded that the requirement was there because of
    the need to converse with people in both OFFICAL languages. I suppose
    that was only being reasonable. It is quite obvious that being
    reasonable is not "in" for seperatists.
    
     As for Burrough's, an American company would probably like employees
    to whom the can comunicate to without going through a translation. Or 
    possibly they wanted people who could talk to their clients (real
    shortage of French speaking computer people back then, and even now for
    that matter). Possibly it was as simple as wanting people who could
    read the manuals. Hate the "FACT" as much as you like, but English is
    very much an international business language, and those children you
    are watching out for would without a doubt be better prepared for the
    job market of the future if they had English skills. For that matter,
    why should I defend the actions of an American company that happened
    over 20 years ago. Join the human race, circa 1992.
    
     The stats indicated by the plaque reflect the embarassing performance
    of Quebec's Francophone population in the last WW. Do you really think
    names were omitted (possibly because they were French sounding?)? This
    is unadulterated crap. I am sure that all the names that "belonged"
    were there. If you want to rail at someone for there not being enough
    "French" names, speak to the Francophones in your own province. Leave
    the English and NT out of it, as they had nothing to do with it.
    
     Business grads from Quebec were probably not worth a whole lot at the
    time, because the "cultural" leaders were pushing such high profile
    programs like ARTS and THEOLOGY. If the Government and RC church kept
    their nose out of it, maybe you wouldn't be blaming the ROC for the
    shortcommings of the Quebec educational system. As it is, it is easier
    to blame someone else.
    
     That must be one heck of a memory to go all the way back to the 40's.
    I suspect you are carrying baggage that does not belong to you.
    
    I worry for the children of Quebec because they live in an environment
    where they will be supplied with misinformation to ensure they grow up
    with the "proper" attitude towards English as a language, and as a people.
    (that is not a slanderous statement because it has been proven in these
    notes files that "FACTS" are rarly supplied to back up statements)
    I myself grew up in a house that hated French as a language, and to a
    lesser extent as a people. It took years of self enlightenment to
    overcome this brainwashing. I can only hope the children of Quebec have
    a similar oppertunity to experience the other people, and find them not
    to be the monsters their parents made them out to be.
    
     I read the last part as follows:
    
    "it's the French peoples turn to discriminate, and I don't feel bad
    about treating someone exactly the way I hated being treated." This I
    would charactorize as vindictive and juvenile. It also shows that it is
    not discrimination you hate, it is the fact that you were not in the
    position to do the discrimination.
    
    God help the Quebecers who are not "OLD STOCK" if Quebec ever
    seperates, because you can bet the seperatists won't.
    
    							Derek.
    (PS. Mario: I had to take some really good parts out because they might
    offend people.)
    (PPS. I note that offending English people seems to be OK though)

    > The stats indicated by the plaque reflect the embarassing performance
    >of Quebec's Francophone population in the last WW. Do you really think
    >names were omitted (possibly because they were French sounding?)? This
    >is unadulterated crap. I am sure that all the names that "belonged"
    >were there. If you want to rail at someone for there not being enough
    >"French" names, speak to the Francophones in your own province. Leave
    >the English and NT out of it, as they had nothing to do with it.
    
    As a Canadian, and as an Englishman, I find the above response
    offensive.  History has shown very clearly that French Canadians
    played a VERY major part in the second world war efforts.  Go look
    in military cemeteries in Europe.  There were francophones from all
    across Canada.  They were highly praised.  I am grateful to them,
    because without their assistance, and that of others, I would likely
    have grown up in Nazi England.  Now as to why this plaque at NT doesn't 
    show many francophone names could be for any number of reasons, including
    employment discrimination or simply a reflection of the employemnt
    and population base at the time.
    
    Yes there was anti-francophone discrimination.  There still is in
    some areas.  That is nothing any Canadian should be proud of.  But
    to use that as an argument towards saying that francophones are
    oppressed is an excessive leap of logic.
    
    As moderator, I ask everyone to be very careful in writing responses
    like the one above.  They come VERY close to being removed.
    
    Thanks
    
    Stuart

    Did they hire only anglophones ?  Who knows what their hiring practices
    were apart from the hiring managers of the time.  But more to the
    point, does it really matter today ?  What does matter today is
    whether any company is being discriminatory in their hiring practices.
    
    Even so, today, if a company has an office in Quebec, like our own CSC,
    and does the bulk of its business in English, does it have to hire all
    bi-lingual people, or some mix of pure francophone and pure
    anglophones, or some mix of all 3 ?  Practicality says some mix of all 3.
    
    So, 50% of Quebecois can speak English, and some tiny proportion of
    Japanese speak English.  That only tells me that in North America
    a far greater proportion of business is done in English.  And I
    congratulate the Quebecois for learning it, when they may not have
    had to.
    
    Why do you seem to turn down your nose so at being cosmopolitan,
    when so much of the world looks at cosmopolitan thinking as a plus ?
    
    Stuart

    
    
    	'Ignorant' is such a nasty word, isn't it?

    I'm with Jean, mostly because he supports the Grand Canal "Vision" for
    a better Canada.
    
    Sincerely,
    
    Sir Glenn of Locks

    .43 (I think):
    
    "All the world likes Cosmopolitan thinking"
    
    I hope you dont equate 'cosmopolitan' with 'a single world-wide
    multicultural society' (a horror scenario, even without Disney,
    McDonald, Hollywood, CNN etc.).
    
    If you do, you are in grave error with your statement, as recent
    developments all over the world should tell you and as I, as a
    fairly educated and travelled (=cosmopolitan) European, can assure you.
    

    >"All the world likes Cosmopolitan thinking"
    >
    >I hope you dont equate 'cosmopolitan' with 'a single world-wide
    >multicultural society' (a horror scenario, even without Disney,
    >McDonald, Hollywood, CNN etc.).
    
    I did not state what you think you've quoted.
    
    With being cosmopolitan comes an appreciation and understanding and
    tolerance of other cultures.  A cosmopolitan place is generally one
    where people of different cultures can live and visit without fear
    of intolerance.
    
    Stuart

    re.48
    
     The doctor was wrong for bothering to try to provide a service in
    Quebec. Canadian Doctors are being activly recruited by the states,
    and linguistic intolerence is as good a reason as any to leave for
    another country which will give you more money, and better working
    conditions. Keep up the good work Jean, and maybe someday you won't be
    subjected to doctors that can't speak French. (unless of course you are
    really sick, and have to go to the States because they have drained
    away the best and brightest doctors from our health care system)
    
    							Derek

    re .48 ... wrong options of "at fault" ...
    
    If you insist on a francophone doctor then you should specify that
    when you get a referral or make an appointment ... you shouldn't
    wait until you get there.
    
    If he was unable to maintain a satisfactory practice in Montreal
    because he only spoke English, then that would be his problem.
    Obviously he could maintain a satisfactory practice, and therefore
    there is no requirement for him to speak French.  It is sad that
    he doesn't, but not wrong that he doesn't.  The point is, is that
    he does NOT have to speak French to earn his living, and as long as
    he can earn his living, why is that your problem ?
    
    Stuart
    
    

    SET HAT = MODERATOR
    
    Please understand that ANY notes in here that consititute a personal
    attack WILL BE REMOVED.
    
    Personal attacks against anyone, regardless of their beliefs, are a
    violation of Digital Policy and Procedures.
    
    Stuart

    Jean,
    
    Thank God that what was ailing you was not so serious you felt you had to
    speak English. I'd really start worrying when a doctor refuses
    to treat somebody because he/she can't speak the right language, whatever
    that may be.
    
    Ted.

    .50: This doctor lived obviously 20+ years in Mtl. So, if you take this
         fact and then talk about 'linguistic intolerance' when somebody
         does not appreciate that fact (and the fact is he did not bother,
    	 nobody can be that stupid), well, the moderator just called for
         civilized wording ... I myself found examples like these
         as well in Mtl, they are no bizarre exceptions.
    
    	 I know that this is a herculean task for many of you (you never
    	 had to learn something like this), but just try to imagine the
         reverse scenario, where for example, British Columbia with
         Vancouver would take on the role of Quebec with Montreal, and you,
    	 as a member of the english speaking 'smaller part' of an
         officially bi-lingual, but french-dominated Canada (with a french
         speaking US neighbour), would experience that somebody essential
         like a doctor would not (have to) bother to offer his essential
         service in your language (which is predominant in your area).
    
    	 Those, who are able to imagine something like that, must
         immediately admit, that in this scenario it is awfully hard
         to look at this topic as cool and abstract as before. 
    
    	 It is very easy to argue cool and reasonable ('look, it makes
         economical sense, it is cosmopolitan not to be such a
         nationalistic hot-head', etc.) from a standpoint, where emotional
         (and thus essential) reasons are not important, because they are
         not challenged. In all the 'smaller group' scenarios they do
         matter, though, and they would matter for you then, as well.
    
    	 You know who is in favour of a 'peacefull' status quo? Of course 
    	 those are are sitting at the better end of it (at the expense of
         the 'others'), be it
         language/cultural issues like here, or political/econ. like in so many
    	 local wars right now.
         It is easy to be 'reasonable' if you are in a situation, where
         you can afford to be reasonable, because 'secondary things' like 
         national/cultural pride etc. are
         just not challenged. The 'others' are deeply challenged by that
         and thus cannot be interested in that kind of status quo. As it
         shows all over the world. 
    
         That is not to say, that this 'secondary, cultural-emotional'
    	 aspect is positive in all its facettes (a different topic)
         . But those, who cannot
    	 see it's implications, are not qualified to discuss it at all.
         
         
    	 Calling for                          

    Rainer,
    
    You just refuse to get it, don't you ...
    
    It is one thing to stand on ideals ... but the practical aspects of any
    situation outweigh the idealistic.
    
    The fact is that an Anglophone Dr. has been able to practice for 20+
    years in Montreal without learning French.  What that says is simply
    that he has had a) enough Anglophone patients, and b) enough bi-lingual
    patients who were willing to be treated by him to maintain an
    economically viable practice.  He must also have found sufficient
    anglophones willing to serve his needs for supplies, groceries,
    and household goods to live there.  I would be more surprised if
    you told me this happened in say Quebec city or Trois Rivieres ...
    but Montreal is not a solelyFrancophone city, just as Toronto is
    not solely an Anglophone community (need proof ... go drive around
    the city and read the Italian and Chinese street signs!).
    
    Sure, you can invent hypothetical situations until the cows come home
    but the fact of the matter is that no-one, however reasonable or
    unreasonable will know how they will react until they are actually in
    that situation.
    
    Sure, it is strange and unfortunate that this Dr did not learn French,
    but that was his choice.  Canada allows him this privilege.  In fact
    Canada would allow you to be unilingual German if you so desired.  It
    would of course be more difficult because you would need translations
    from French or English of legal and governmental forms.  But Canada
    ALLOWS you to do this ... it does not say "You must speak English or
    French" to reside anywhere in the country.
    
    Ideals are fine ... but ideals are always tempered by reality.  In an
    ideal world, this conversation would not be necessary.  In a world less
    than ideal, we need people to show reasonable attitudes.
    
    Stuart

    In fact I was reffered to a Dr whose name sounded Vietnamese, and
    "usually" these persons speak french.  I was surprised to find on my
    first visit a rather large operation run by three doctors and a number
    of therapists.  I never bothered to find out if the doctor spoke
    french because; 1) it NEVER happened before and 2) it was close to my
    home which is NOT in an eglish neighborhood.
    
    The doctor is offering a service to me, I am the custommer and as such
    expect the service to include speaking to me 1) in french and 2) in a
    manner simple enough for me to understand what is going on.  
    
    We (DEC) provide the same kind of services, we must communicate to our
    custommers in their language and in terms they can understand.  We
    could smother them in technical jargon, but where would that lead us?
    would we get more sales by impressing them with our "educated" words?
    
    The fact that this doctor has been able to survive with such a limited
    french vocabulary is only tribute to his stubborness.  Last year I was
    in Mexico and went to one of our custommers (Dupont) some of the people
    I spoke to were from the US and they ALL spoke spanish.  I am sure they
    could have managed to exist in english, but why go to Mexico then?
    
    I don't see why I am viewed as the closed mided person here, I can
    read, write, understand both french and english (with some spanish) I
    am culturally aware enough to watch and enjoy french and english TV,
    how many of you canadians can make this claim?
    
    Jean
    

    I don't attribute this Dr's survival to stubbornness ... just fortune
    that he operates in a city with many unilingual Anglophones and
    bi-lingual people/  He likely wouldn't have survived in Quebec city.
    
    What a lot of us have problem understanding Jean, is your seeming
    paranoia at the loss of the French language and culture in Quebec.
    It is a tribute to you and your parents that you are so fluent in
    English.  This paranoia seems to be so insidious that you will
    refuse medical treatment because the Doctor cannot speak french.
    
    If I was in your shoes, I probably would have accepted the treatment
    but indicated that I was disappointed the Dr didn't speak my language.
    I certainly wouldn't have got angry about it though!
    
    Stuart

    Hi Jean,
    
>    For your information, I did not get angry, I just asked after my visit
    
    This kind of response is normally considered a response in anger ... my
    apologies if I misinterpreted.
    
    Indeed, practice makes perfect, but as I've said before, if there was
    no English speaking infra-structure to support him and insufficient
    English speaking patients, either a) he would move, or b) he'd learn
    French ...
    
    When I go into Quebec, unless I estimate that any conversation will
    stay inside my limited French, I will politely ask if the other person
    can speak English, and then proceed to thank him / her.  On the other
    hand, I will try, and my confidence has certainly improved as time has
    gone on.
    
    We've been over this a million times though ... is there any way we can
    actually move onward in this discussion ?
    
    Stuart

    I think there are a few smaller facts (factoids?) which might be
    thrown in here...  I am responding to several of the previous notes at
    once:
    
    a.  In personal services (services don't come any more personal than
        health care) it is always the customer's choice that drives the
        market.  The fact is that the quebec health care system recognizes
        this - witness the (at least) three "anglo" hospitals in Montreal!
    
    
    b.  I think we should separate provision of services from the marketing
        of services.   Montrealais have always been sensitized to cultural
        differences (some would say they are too sensitized ie prejuduced)
        most montrealers can spot "the other culture" from a distance,
        and behave/react/avoid interactions in an appropriately civil
        manner.  In the case of the doctor, it might have been unpleasant
        to walk in to the doctor's office, simply because the doctor
        violated the expected language norms/assumptions.  Nobody likes
    	to "have to" deal in another language, least of all when personal
    	matters such as health are discussed.  I can't think of a simple
    	solution in this specific case, other than to more overtly express
    	the fact that the doctor practises in English.  The fact is that
    	with the language laws and the political/social hysteria going on
    	in some quarters, nobody would want to draw attention to the fact
    	that service was not offered in the (local) majority language.
    
    
    c.	Give the doctor some credit.  He probably speaks Vietnamese, and
    	english, who knows what else.  He's trying to serve a population,
    	a community at that (asiatic, perhaps more so than anglo).  He's
    	not carrying out operations to subvert the power of the french
    	language or culture.
    
    
    d.	There are plenty of examples of personal services in minority
    	languages in Canada.  Chinese doctors, chinese dentists, east
    	indian doctors, the list goes on.  And these people do not always
    	operate in either of the two official languages, they have learned
    	to cooexist without threatening or antagonizing.  Professional
    	service providers (such as Digital !!) are loathe to antagonize
    	or lose potential business!!!
    
    Now the test of a really tolerant society would be to see how this 
    Doctor in montreal continues to exist and work.  Will he continue
    in his present practise?  Will the language police jump on him?  Will
    the government pressure him through indirect techniques (such as the
    medical society, or ministry of health regulations)???
    
    Pieter
    

    Don't get me wrong, I respect his position and I trus you respect mine
    for choosing to get treatment from a doctor with whom I can converse in
    my own language.
    
    Different subject: Ask the residents of Florida how they feel about the
    incursions and inroads done by the spanish community there?  I am sure
    you will get the same feelings I am expressing here.
    
    Jean
    

    The situation in Florida is as racist as the one in Quebec, Why not use
    South Africa as a role model..... It's more in line with seperatist
    thinking.
    
    
    							Derek
    
    (P.S. Happy Holidays)

    While you're checking out what the folks in Florida think about the
    impact of many Spanish speaking folks, you might want to ask them what
    they think about the many French speaking folks that spend quite a bit
    if time there...
    
    Absolutley certain I saw a W5 or 60 Minutes type of show that reported
    how the locals were getting upset about the demands the visitors were
    making - something about demanding to be served in French...
    
    Regars,
    
    Garry
    

    Coo-wee
    
    Stephen Beaton here... Well actually over here living in England.
    
    Mind you I am Scottish, but I drive a French car, a Peugeot, and I
    don't speak French (much)... Can you buy French cars in Quebec I wonder?
    
    What's my point ?
    
    I'm not really sure, but I'll ramble on anyway....  In Scotland, we have
    a mild form of this 'French' thing, whereby the more nationalistic a 
    Scottish person gets the more likely it is that he or she will assign 
    themselves to a sort of, internal asylum. 
    
    And if a Scottish person should decide to go live outside of the
    'hameland' (as I have done), the ones still living in Scotland assume
    you must have taken leave of your senses; double, treble, quadruple
    these feelings if your new country of residence is England... Scots
    have this theory that the sole vocation in life of the English is to
    suppress anything remotely Scottish.
    
    There's also a mild from of the Northern Ireland thingy that goes on in
    Scotland too, except we haven't got to the stage of killing each other
    yet. The "are you a catholic or a prodestant?" bit is mainly restricted
    to the west of Scotland; I was brought up in Perth in the east and to
    this day, have absolutely no idea (nor did I care) what religion my school
    friends were or are. 
    
    However, my first job was in Glasgow, and many times I would be
    asked "What skool did ye' goatae'?" (or "What school did you go to?");
    my reply was "Perth High School"; the follow on question would be "Wiz
    thit' a Kath'lic skool?" (or "Was that a catholic school?"); my reply
    was "No, it was mixed"; look of absolute horror or disgust (I was
    never quite sure) on the face of the punter asking the questions; I
    found that if my reply to the last question was "I don't know." that
    used to increase the levels of anxiety!
    
    Don't get me wrong though, not all Scots were/are like this; most of us
    have a sense of humour for example.
    
    Sorry is this is way of track, but I thought if Florida and South
    Africa were going to get a mention, then I thought that Scotland should
    get a mention as well.
    
    Trying to get things back on track then, perhaps I should mention that
    whilst the Scots (generalisations can be fun) have no problems with the
    French, the English and the French absolutely hate each other...
    especially when it comes to rugby, sheep and apples... not necessarily
    in that order.
    
    But I digress again...
    
    
    Have a cool yule everyone.
    
    Stephen
    
    ...or should I have signed as Etienne
    
    Je pense qu'il pisserait jusqu'a Noel
    
    I think
                             

    Hello Etienne,

    	I think I like you.

    	Imagine, a witty and amusing reply in this note....

    	And it was done without the mention of the Grand Canal....

    I'm impressed!

    Merry Christmas!

    Glenn

    Not only was it witty, there's a lot of sense in what he's saying if
    you lessen toeh!
    
    Stephen,
    
    Thanks for interjecting that on Scottish nationalism ... of course,
    there's always Cornish nationalism too!  It's much closer the mark than
    comparing South Africa ...  
    
    Stuart

Re: .64

Garry,

When you hear the word *French* or *Quebec* do your ears perk up?

I don't think it's right for any French person to request French service in
Florida.  Could it have been an isolated case?  My guess is that it was.
You can't generalize in this manner and assume that all Quebecers do the same.

If the English media likes to report on isolated cases where the French ask
for French service in Florida, why don't we ever hear themn reporting about
the English in Quebec asking for service in English?  It's just as bad if you
think about it.

I don't want to sound like I'm siding with Jean or anything but common sense
prevails.  Many English people come to Quebec and ask for service in English
assuming that the server speaks English.  In a high percentage of cases they 
do but in cases where they don't, who's in the wrong?  As far as I'm concerned
no-one is in the wrong.  Each party must make an effort to communicate with 
the other either with an English-French dictionary or with sign language.  If
I was a restaurant owner in Florida and I was located in "Little Quebec", I'd
try to find (if I could) personel who can communicate in French at least a bit.

Mario

    Mario,
    
>I don't want to sound like I'm siding with Jean or anything but common sense
>prevails.
    
    Trouble is that common sense isn't very common, especially with emotive
    issues!
    
    Normally when I go into a non-English speaking area, including Quebec,
    I will ask if the server speaks English ... if (s)he does, I will
    thank the person ... if not I will indicate that my "X" isn't very
    good and we'll do the best we can.  I do attempt to learn at least
    *that much* of the language ...
    
    So, yes, it is certainly not right to expect service in French in
    Toronto (except from a government agency), or in Florida, or in London.
    It is also not right to expect service in English in Montreal, Quebec,
    Paris, Tokyo ... wherever but it is not wrong to request service in
    your language IF you believe there is a possibility they can help
    you in your language.
    
    So you end up stuck between "not right" and "not wrong" ... i.e. we
    are in those grey areas.  If you believe that there is no grey area
    then you will have problems.
    
    Stuart