Conference kaosws::canada

	I've heard of and flown Air Canada and thought they were excellent,
	however not of Canadian.

	What sort of size id Canadian to Air Canada, and do they fly the
	same routes and time?

	Heather
	

    Canadi>n Airlines International is owned by Pacific Western Airlines
    which was a small Western based carrier with BIG aspirations.  They
    bought up from Canadian Pacific what was known as CP Air, which formed
    the backbone of Canadi>n's service.  PWA then went on to force Wardair
    out of the market by buying them up.  Max Ward was Canada's Freddie
    Laker, however, Ward, unlike Laker sold out and came out of it with
    a healthy bankbook!
    
    PWA also owns a number of smaller connector airlines and has
    affiliations with a number more small airlines that fly under the
    Canadian Partner banner.
    
    I don't have numbers, but it is a significant size, smaller
    than Air Canada though.
    
    Stuart
    
    

    Canadian and Air Canada compete domestically, both flying to major cities
    within Canada.  Before Canadian dumped off some northern routes to
    feeder or second tier carriers, Canadian and Air Canada could be
    distinguished by their service to remote or smaller communities.  
    
    The Canadian govt' regulated service (and still does north of (55
    degrees?) and so could prescribe service and routes, etc in the old
    days.
    
    Air Canada and Canadian do not compete internationally, as Canada
    negotiates bilateral agreements on a route by route basis, there is no
    "open skies" agreement for most countries.  So, in effect Canadian and
    Air Canada "split the world" between them from a canadian carrier
    perspective.
    
    Pieter
    

    Here are the numbers:
    			Air Canada		Canadian
    Assets		4.9b			2.8b
    Revenue		3.6b			2.9b
    1991 loss		218m			162m
    Long Term Debt	2.3b			1.5b
    Employees		18200			15000
    Fleet		102			88
    

	Looking at the business view:

	Air Canada does international,

	and the both do internal, but not conflicting, services

	and the numbers posted in .4 look unhealthy.

	So, the merger could help cut admin, join some services and cut expense.

	Otherwise they'll both get more unhealthy    

	Phew, I wouldn't buy shares in either at the moment.

	Heather

    Canadian also flies internationally and on comparable almost competing
    routes ...
    
    For example, Air Canada flies Ottawa to London Heathrow, and Canadian
    flies Wardair's old Ottawa to London Gatwick route.  Canadian flies
    a lot into the Pacific where Air Canada dominates on the North
    Atlantic.
    
    The numbers are unhealthy, but what is interesting is the relatively
    high staff / revenue and staff / fleet numbers for Canadian compared
    with Air Canada ... no wonder Canadian staff are bleating so strongly
    about loss of jobs.
    
    Stuart

>    Canadian also flies internationally and on comparable almost competing
>    routes ...
>    
>    For example, Air Canada flies Ottawa to London Heathrow, and Canadian
>    flies Wardair's old Ottawa to London Gatwick route.  Canadian flies
>    a lot into the Pacific where Air Canada dominates on the North
>    Atlantic.
 
	These are not comparable, Gatwick is the charter flyers nightmare.

	I would pay a LOT more money to fly from Heathrow.

	Heather

	.7 suggests its author has more money than experience of Gatwick
	airport.

	Situations equivalent to the quoted text are common. E.g. from
	Boston
		British Airways and American fly to Heathrow
		Virgin and Northwest fly to Gatwick

	On my last trip to Britain I happened to fly Northwest. I did
	not find the facilities at Gatwick any worse than Terminal 3
	at Heathrow.

	The situation Heather talks about is restricted to a few summer
	weekends. Bad situations can arise at Heathrow also. For instance
	when British Airways have lots of aircraft frozen to the jetways.

	Tony

    At one time Heather, I'd have agreed with you, delays through Gatwick
    were inevitable ... but that was about 8 or more years ago.  We've been
    back to England 5 times.  Twice from Heathrow and 3 times from Gatwick.
    On both occasions, our flights out of Heathrow were delayed by over an
    hour "due to operational difficulties".  The first time from Gatwick
    we were several hours delayed, but the last two times we were rolling
    out on the apron precisely on schedule.
    
    The only thing that now decides which airport I choose is where my
    first destination is, given comparable fares ... going to certain parts
    of the country from Gatquick is a royal pain.
    
    Stuart

    Has Air Canada made any changes to its frequent flyer programme???
    
    dkd

    Since When ?
    
    

>	.7 suggests its author has more money than experience of Gatwick
>	airport.


	I have a lot of experience of Gatwick, I didn't have much to compare it
	against until I started to use Heathrow on business.
	The last time I used it was two years ago in March - and I swore I 
	would never use it again unless I really couldn't find anywehere else 
	at any price - and then I may decide I'd rather not travel at all.

	Last year I went to Toronto via Air Canada from Heathrow for 250 quid
	return, at the end of June.
	Compared to my many experiences from Gatwick, it was a dream.


	Heather

    The hitch with Gatquick is that when delays start occurring, they
    can quickly snowball to the point where no plane can arrive or
    depart on time.  Because it does handle such a vast number of charters
    too, delays mean that the place gets jammed very quickly with
    holidaymakers who have little option but to wait at the airport.
    The business traveller usually attempts to make alternate arrangements
    which usually eases the "people" congestion.
    
    There are definitely times I've sworn at delays out of Gatwick.
    
    You should  have tried Toronto terminal 1.
    
    Stuart