Conference kaosws::canada

	Bad.

	Very bad.

	No.

    
    Hi ,
    
    whats the job situation like over in Britain ? 
    
    What's the DEC job situation like ?
    
    Do you have anything like Open Job Postings in Britain ?
    
    thanks ,
    
    Jim ...

    
    Hi ,
    
    sorry is this a p**s take or  are you genuinly intersted ?
    
    Bill .... 

	I think he just wants to know if the employment situation
	is as equally rotten over there as here.

	Charlie

    Is a 'p**s take' something like a 'sticky wicket'?
    
    Response was 'tongue in cheek'...
    
    JP

    
    Well
    there's always plenty of jobs on the open Jobs postings list , but at
    the same time things arn't that hot over here.......
    
    
    Bill

    Seriously now, what suggestions would you Dec-mates in Canada give
    to those of us from outside Canada who are would like to get
    jobs in your country?  
    
    There is no Jobs posting for Canada on VTX, and I read in earlier Notes    
    that there is no such list even internally in Canada.
    
    Your suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    B.Lee

    Well, first off, there are few openings in DEC Canada.  We are
    currently at ~3000 employees spread across 5000 miles coast to coast. 
    My best estimate is that there are less then 100 postings/year (2/wk on
    average).  Factor into this that these postings can be at 20 different
    facilities over said 5000 miles, and you'll appreciate the pickings are
    slim.  This is not a criticism or implied negative, it's just the way
    it is.
    
    Now the really tough part for non-Canadians: To be eligible to work in
    Canada requires (this from Employment and Immigration Canada, the
    federal government agency responsible) a bona-fide job offer made after
    the employer has proven to said agency that no Canadian resident is
    qualified for the position.
    
    On the other hand, Digital personnel policy is that no job offer can
    be made unless the applicant has the legal right to work in Canada,
    either by birth, naturalization, or work visa as per above.
    
    So, for non-Canadians, you are faced with the perfect Catch-22:  you
    need a job offer to get in, and you need to get in to get a job offer!
    
    By the way, Digital is not unique in this policy, I believe most or all
    Canadian-based companies do the same, and it may even be a no-choice
    item due to government regulations.
    
    So there you have it:  no JOBS postings external to Canada due to
    limited availability and government policies.

    re: -.1
    
    Hasn't this all changed though with the Free Trade Agreement?  I
    thought there was something in there about 'professionals' being able
    to easily work in the other country, without having to go through the
    'not available in this country first' shenanigans?
    
    Could be wrong...I dunno...what's a professional?
    
    JP

    re .-1
    
    From what I understand, the FTA does allow freer access to "work" down
    in the States for Canadians, and here for Americans.  It does ** not **
    affect immigration.  The intended result of the FTA was to make it
    easier for temporary work / contracting to go on across borders.  
    
    Thus where we once had a major hassle going to the states for anything
    remotely related to work, we can now simply breeze over the border as
    long as its temporary.
    
    Pieter
    

    Well, Free Trade was supposed to open up cross-border temporary
    assignment access, but I don't believe anyone has benefited yet.
    
    Pieter, you're in the best position to verify this, but I believe the
    Educational Services instructors in Vancouver have something called L1
    passes to allow them to teach courses in the U.S. for X weeks a year.
    
    As for U.S. instructors coming to Canada, they still have to fill out a
    declaration when they cross the border, and pay $50.00 CDN (cash only)
    to purchase a temporary work visa.  (No, I'm not making this up, it was
    related to me by 3 different U.S. instructors who came up here to teach
    DEC courses!)
    
    The bottom line is: to work in Canada permanently (i.e. longer than 6
    months, I think is the limit), the old rules still apply.
    
    Of course, the best way to get the straight goods is ask Employment and
    Immigration, or in the UK, try the Canadian embassy/consulate.

    
    Before joining Digital a couple of years ago I worked for more than ten
    years for the Canadian subsidiary of ICI, C-I-L now ICI Canada.  ICI
    had set up mechanisms to move personnel from country to country on
    temporary and/or permanent assignments.  We had many Brits sent over
    here on two-year and longer secondments, and people have been moved to
    the U.K, U.S., Australia, and less frequently other countries. 
    Therefore, provided the employer is prepared to encourage and support
    inter-country transfers it can be done.  
    
    However, having made some inquiries with personnel here I have been
    given to understand that Digital would only support such moves in very
    special cases.  That generally means only individuals of high rank or
    with contacts in high places.  You could try sending an e-mail with
    your resume attached, indicating your desire to work in Canada on a
    temporary or permanent basis to a very senior manager here and see what
    kind of response you obtain.

    <<...Educational Services instructors in Vancouver have something called L1
    <<passes to allow them to teach courses in the U.S. for X weeks a year.
    
Eh?!  I've taught courses in the States that lasted from one to two weeks,
and I mentioned this to the American Immigration officers.  Over the past
three years that I have been doing this, I have never been asked to fill out
forms or get an "L1".  Besides, one could always say that you're 'attending'
a course without alluding to the fact that you are the instructor.

Hmmm, maybe I should get an "L1", just in case.

K_O'Barbunk

    The reason the VAO instructors got "L1"'s or whatever they're called is
    that one of them was refused entry to the U.S. on one occasion.  The
    U.S. customs person stated: "You've been to the U.S. too many times
    recently".  I believe he was trying to imply the instructor was
    "moonlighting" in the U.S.

    My understanding of what free trade gave us officially was already in
    place in a defacto fashion, strictly speaking before the FTA one
    required a VISA from US immigration to conduct ANY business in the US
    (the definition was pretty broad) but that this was virtually never 
    enforced unless immigration though something fishy was going on. 
    
    A long time ago a company I worked for bought some used electronic/optical
    gear from another company in the US with the condition that the buyer
    could inspect it on the sellers premises before being packed for shipping 
    and call the deal off if there was anything wrong with the stuff. When we
    got off the plane in LA loaded down with oscilloscopes and a bunch of
    other techical gear needed to run our tests all hell broke loose; it
    took us the better part of the night to get it all sorted out, they
    finally let us go ahead but told us "next time apply for a VISA ahead
    of time" I can't remember now if it was an L1 we were supposed to get or
    some other thing.
    
    Similar idea in the other direction, only Canada customs is/was set up to
    issue permits at point of entry instead of requiring advance
    applications.
     
    What FTA gives you is the right to conduct business on behalf of your 
    employer in the other country provided no money is crossing the border
    to pay for your work directly, hence one can attend meetings, buy stuff, 
    make sales calls and so on but you cannot consult or teach for example.  

    Just wanted to thank those of you who have been contributing
    to this discussion.  Though the picture that emerges is that
    it is going to be difficult for us non-Canadians who are thinking
    of getting jobs in Canada, at least knowing what we're up against
    is helpful.  I am especially appreciative of note .9, the one
    by a Monsieur (?) Hasibeder.  Catch-22 yes, but clear and succinctly
    stated.
    
    And if you have other comments/advice, keep them coming.
    
    Now if only I got that job . . .
    
    B. Lee

    The Cath-22 can be worked around.  Companies can and do make bona-
    fide offers of employment with the clause "subject to satisfactory
    completion of immigration procedures".  This is normally enough to
    satisfy immigration.  Now the problem is that the company must be
    willing therefore to take the risk that you won't be allowed to take
    the job, and that you will be as quick as possible in satisfying
    Employment and Immigration to allow you to work here and to move here,
    bearing in mind that a typical delay can be 5 months.
    
    What it all means is that the company must "WANT" you strongly enough
    to make this kind of offer.  All kinds of companies have done it
    regularly in the past.  Whether they will now or not is another matter
    and moreover, whether DEC Canada would do it is another matter.
    
    Stuart
    

    About 7 years ago, I joined the UK office of a Canadian company (Im a
    Brit).
    After about 18 months I got the opportunity to go to Canada, for 3
    months "training". I think 3 months was (is?) the maximium term of
    temporary (non-working) visas.
    Whilst in Canada, I was offered, and accepted, a job with the Canadian
    parent company.
    They handled all the paperwork. They got me a 1yr work permit (took a
    couple of weeks, I believe), and applied for me to become a landed
    immigrant/resident.
    Getting the work permit did not seem to be a problem, although the
    company had transferred other Brits to Canada, and had a "relationship"
    with the local employment/immigration office.
    Getting resident status took about a year from application to approval,
    and required the company proving no Canadian could do the job (job spec
    was based on my resume/cv). Being a resident meant I could leave the
    company without being forced to return to the UK.
    
    So it can be done, and working for a company that is willing to help
    you out, obviously helps a great deal.
    From what I can gather, Digital is not very "helpfull" regarding this
    issue. Maybe the economic climate has something to do with it?
    
    Regards,
    Stranger-In-A-Strange-Land
    

Just to add a bit more info, I **AM** a Canadian and while casually looking
into job prospects in Canada recently I found that the Canadian job market is
extremely depressed. I would think that after 13 years working for Digital,
teaching programming at a local community college for the last 5 and being
relatively knowledgeable in both low end and mid range computing, I'd be fairly
employable but I didn't see many opportunities. Traditionally, that's why
many Canadians end up in the United States. Canada has a large supply of 
educated workers and relatively fewer opportunities. When I was a teenager
growing up in Halifax Nova Scotia, there were people lined up ten deep for
every good job. I should point out that I was looking at job opportunites as
much out of curiousity as any desire to work in Canada. I have the
feeling that most Digital Canada employees are keeping their heads down and
plugging away to avoid the kind of nastiness that's befallen Digital and much
of the rest of the computer industry.

-Alex

    Jobs in Canada can be found, but like everywhere else, they are few and
    far between.  Also, Digital does sponsor moves, but these are rare
    given the expense.
    
    I lived and worked in Ottawa for four years and loved every minute.  I
    am now working in Masschusetts.  I am a Brit and found that Brits still
    are top of the immigration list (this also applies to U.S.), at least
    they were 5 years ago, things may have changed.
    
    Maybe if you were willing to pay your own move, things may open up?
    
    Good hunting?  Funny, I'm thinking of going home (Britain) in a couple
    of years!!
    
    Gladys
    

> Note 480.20              Jobs - Interested Brit.                    20 of 20
> AKOCOA::DECELLES                                 16 lines  26-AUG-1991 13:29
>    Jobs in Canada can be found, but like everywhere else, they are few and
>    far between.  

I am also British and I am also looking to move to Canada. I would like to
contact somebody (off-line) to get lots of info about how they managed to
get into Canada. Another 'Brit' would be ideal. 

Question like...

How long did it take you? From first form-filled-out to starting work.
How much did is cost to move? Furniture, etc.
Did you get a temorary work permit first then apply for permanent residence?
Did you x-fer within DEC?
How helpful were ther personnel departments?
etc.

Thanx

Paul Simons @ebo