Conference kaosws::canada

*WHICH* Americans did they survey?  

I find it very hard to believe that the "average" American is THAT 
imperialistic.

Right in the middle of it (Indianpolis: Crossroads of America),

Russ Schwartz.

    Judas Priest!! How do they have the nerve to think that Canada SHOULD
    become the 51st state. Do they me mean for their good or our good?
    I think things are just right as they are. Believe it or not Canada
    and Canadians do have an identity and a quite favourable one at
    that. I like Americans but I also like being Canadian and would
    like it to stay that way.
    
    Happy CANADA DAY evrybody.
    
    Wish I was home,
    
    Ted.

    
    I'd like to know which Americans were polled. I would guess that
    it had to be better educated, working people. If they went into
    the slums or poorer sections of the States, I don't think they would
    care, or probably even know where we are.
    
    I like it the way it is and sure wouldn't want to be the 51st State.
    
    I appreciate the differences in our cultures and in our people.
    Let's keep it that way.
    
    Roger

    In my circle of friends, the popular opinion is that the United
    States would make a pretty fair eleventh province.
    
    Tom

    
    re .0
      You mean it's not a state already?  :^)
    
      Seriously, My guess is the poll probably asked a bunch of people
    who's response was "Well, I guess so, if they want to" (Or something
    similar.)  
    
      I don't think the average american lies awake at night plotting
    how to conquour canada,  but would have no objections to adding
    it as a state, hence the positive answer.  In fact, most americans
    probably haven't given *any* thought to adding *any* new states...
     
      What would have been fascinating would be to ask the same sample
    of americans what they thought about making Puerto Rico a state...
    
    
    
    						-al
    

	It was in Time, Newsweek or some such magazine I read a letter to the
	editor which said "Why doesn't the U.S. just buy Canada?" 

	Tony

    I was asked last year (while I was in Canada) if Canada should consider
    becoming a part of the U.S.....my response was.....NO! Why subject
    a country to our way of life. I believe all of you, north of the
    border are doing just fine without our influence. 
    
         I would love to live there for longer than 4 weeks a year as
    I do now. I don't want to see your country mucked up like most
    of ours is now. Don't get me wrong, our country is the strongest,
    and most beautiful nation in the world, but we have some things
    to put into check before we distroy it....
    
    Jim

Well, they didn't ask me, but I'd have said No Way.  Keep Canada free, so
when this country $h!ts the bed I'll have some place to seek refuge!

Kip (South of the Border)

    A poll designed by Canadian nationalists/American bashers.  What's
    the point.  We know Americans like Canada, and we know Canadians
    jealously guard their identity.  More anti-free trade propoganda.
    
    Glenn

    I'm not bashing Americans I just want to stay Canadian even though
    I'm living in Ireland. How do you feel Glenn?
    
    Ted.

<< Note 198.10 by TRCA01::OBRIEN "Glenn O'Brien @TRC 18/6" >
<< More useless Canadian quasi-journalism >-
<<Glenn

	Spoken like your stereotypical Canajen, eh!

But lets see the whole text, so that we can all make a more subjective and
biased opinion:

********************************************************************************

			O T T A W A  C I T I Z E N 

MONDAY, JUNE 26, 1989						FRONT PAGE


	Americans favor Canada as 51st state, poll finds

TORONTO (CP) - A majority of Americans would love to make Canada the 51st state.
But most Canadians reject the idea, suggests a poll released by Maclean's
magazine Sunday.

	Sixty-six per cent of Americans polled favored aor strongly favored
bringing Canada into the fold.  Thirty-two per cent were opposed.

	Among Canadians, 14 per cent wanted to join the U.S. while 85 per cent
opposed or strongly opposed the idea.

	The only enthusiasm for the idea came from Quebec, where almost a 
quarter of those polled favored statehood.

	One reason for the divergent views may be the way Canadians and
Americans see each other, suggests the poll.

	Americans used words such as friendly (28 per cent) to describe
Canadians, followed by nice neighbors and wonderful.

	The most popular word used by Canadians to describe Americans was
snob (11 per cent).  And, while Yankees were also described as good and friendly
the next most popular descriptions were pig-headed, aggressive, powerful and
obnoxious.

	When Canadians were asked what they liked least about Americans, a
quarter of all respondents said it was their "superior attitude".  By contrast,
most Americans couldn't think of a nasty thing to say about Canadians.

	The poll by Decima Research surveyed 1,000 people each in Canada and
the United States between Feb. 25 and March 8.

	Despite Canadians' apparent disdain for Americans, a surprising 49 per
cent of those polled favored adopting a common currency.  Thirty-nine per cent
of Canadians also favored a common defence and foreign policy.

    Well, I think I can see it from both sides- I have both American and
    Canadian citizenship, from my Canadian mother and my American father.
    I agree that the Americans who say Canada should become (ie would be 
    happier as) the 51st state are just being silly.  A good friend of mine
    doesn't seem to understand why Canada shouldn't be part of America.  Of
    course, if you polled the same Americans, I'm sure they would say
    they'd *never* want *their* home town, county, or state to be absorbed
    by a more populous neighbor.
    
    -Sandy (who's probably going to move to Canada when finished at MIT)

    
    
      The article doesn't differentiate on how the question of stathood
    was asked.  
    
      Saying "Would you like canada to be a state" implies that 
    canada is interested in becoming a state, and asks should we
    let them.  
    
      Saying:
    
      Would you like to make canada a state, even though the canadians
    oppose it? would probably bring a much different answer.  In short,
    most americans would welcome canada, but are not in favor of
    coercing it.
    
      Also many "off the cuff" opinions would probably change, as the
    (potential) issues of:
    	Large Block's of votors to the opposing political party
    	Change in trans-border work rules
    	change in tax/trade/defense structure
    	legislative re-districting 
    
    			etc. became better known.  We haven't added
    a state in a while, but I seem to recall that even the addition
    of hawaii and alaska aroused decades of debate...
    
    
      The question probably implied canadian willingness to join the
    union, hence the answer was more in favor of potentially 
    "welcoming" than "coercing"  canada to join the union.
    
    						-al
    

Re:.7 (with respect to beauty)

>    Don't get me wrong, our country is the strongest,
>    and most beautiful nation in the world, but we have some things
>    to put into check before we distroy it....
    
Really Jim? Power you probably have, although personally I think a lot of it 
is perception rather than real. What is "power" anyway, and how does one 
measure it!

But beauty is in your eyes only.  Is the United Snakes more beatiful than:
	-New Zealand?
	-Your western mountains more beautiful than those in Nepal?
	-Your beaches more beautiful than those in Australia?
	-....and so on

I'll grant you this one though: there is only one Death Valley, and you own 
it!

Fred

    RE: >> 66% of Americans DO Think that Canada should become the 51st
    U.S. State >>
    
    I'am surprised, but NOT ASTONISHED that 66% of a bunch of whisky
    drinking, cigar smoking red-necks from that Country Music bar in
    Alabama are in favour of absorbing Canada into their Union. 
    I'am 99.9% certain that I know which of the bars the pollsters went
    asking those questions. I have been there !!
    Its amazing that **only** 66% agreed, it should have been 95% if the
    pollsters had been in that Country Music bar on Saturday, night.
     
     Re: The 15% Canadians who said they will like to join the Union.
    Are these not the same people who ran from the US in 1776 so as to remain 
    loyal to the ROYAL King George ? Weren't those polled most likely from the 
    townships who crossed the border to avoid supporting Gen. Washington ? 
    Now they want to join the union for what ? Pacify their guilt feeling
    or what ?  No pun intended :-(|)  
    
    
    

    RE: >> 66% of Americans DO Think that Canada should become the 51st
    U.S. State >>
    
	Given some of the comments that have been made in some
	of the other notes files, I'm surprised that so many knew
	that Canada isn't a state.
		    =====		8-)

Bob

    re.15
    Sorry, if you misinturpreted the word "strongest". I suppose the
    word has many meanings...I was not thinking of power...just wishful
    thinking that we Americans were a close knit and strong thinking
    people that had pride...like I said, wishful thinking... 
    
    The places that you mentioned are beautiful....but I don't have
    to go there to see beauty...WE do have alot right here. Most Americans
    travel to far exotic lands to seek what ever they travel for and
    they never travel around their own country. The same thing can be
    said about Canada....it's a beautiful country...We both have a good
    thing, let's keep it that way. 
    
    Jim

    .4 has the right idea.
    
    Don
    

	Since the base note has stirred up quite a bit of interest and
verbiage on this subject, I thought that I might as well pick up a copy of the
'offending' magazine.  It's the July 3, 1989 edition of Maclean's and the
entire copy is devoted to 'a portrait of two nations'.  Also, to try and
answer an earlier query about the actual questions posed in the poll, I've
pulled the following from the magazine:

*******************************************************************************
	1000 Canadians and 1000 Americans were polled, the results are accurate
to within 3.3 percentage points 19 times out of 20.

	"Would you strongly favor, favor, oppose or strongly oppose Canada
	 becoming the 51st state of the United States with full congressional
	 representation and rights of American citizenship?"

					Canada           United States

		Strongly oppose          54%                  10%
		Oppose			 31%		      22%
		Favor			 12%		      54%
		Strongly favor		  2%                  12%
		No opinion		  1%                   3%
*******************************************************************************

	Here are some additional statistics that may be of interest:


		(To Canadians)Which one of these words, in your view best
		describes the ideal Canadian?

			Tolerant 38%
			Independant-minded 27%
			Peaceful 26%
			Aggressive 3%
			Clean 3%
			Sexy 1%
			No opinion 1%

	The same question was posed to Americans to describe the ideal
American with the following results:

			Independant-minded 52%
			Tolerant 21%
			Aggressive 12%
			Peaceful 12%
			Clean 3%
			Sexy 1%
			No opinion 1%

	To outsiders, the distinctions between Canadians and Americans often
appear so subtle as to be almost meaningless.  But the following comparisons
show that while there are numerous similarities between the two countries,
there are also some startling differences:

		       The Justice System

	Crime Rates
					Canada            United States
	(per 100,000 population)
	
	Homicide                          2.5                   8.3
	Violent sexual crime     	  5.3		       37.4
	Burglary		      1,245.1		    1,329.6
	Robbery				 87.9		      212.7
	Motor vehicle theft	        399.7		      529.4

			******************************
	Law enforcement
					Canada            United States

	Number of police per	          2		         2.1
	100,000 population

	% of police assaulted            11		        16.8

	Police officers killed            3			73
	in line of duty in 1987

	Drug arrests in 1987		169		       385
	(per 100,000 population)

			*********************************

	Firearms
					Canada		  United States

	Homicides by firearms		  31.2                  59.1
	(as % of total homicides)

	Homicides by handgun		   8.9		        43.7
	(as % of total homicides)

	Homicides by rifle		   9.7			 4.3
	(as % of total homicides)

	Homicides by shotgun		   7.2			 6.1
	(as % of total homicides)

	Estimated number of guns	no estimate		200 million
	in the country					(incl. 60 million
							 handguns)

	Number of registered		923,125		    no registration
	restricted weapons

 *****************************************************************************

	There are a lot of interesting stats in this issue of Maclean's, I'd
suggest grabbing a copy.

Pat

    
                      			Canada  	United States
    Number of nasal hairs per
    100,000 population                10,172,500         12,752,675
                                                         
    
    	For the course of the 1970's Canadians had at least 1 million
    more nasal hairs than Americans, but it's obvious that in the 80's
    Canada has 'blown' its lead in the nasal hair department.
    
    Glenn  8^)

    This exchange of feelings/opinions is VERY INTERESTING!  It's great
    that we are neighbors living in harmony.  I was born in Canada and
    have lived in the States since the early sixties.  
    
    When I first started to read this note I thought it was a joke.  I'm
    LEAVING THE US for Canada tomorrow and wished that circumstances were
    different and not have to return.  I may be prejudice - but all
    the wonderful feelings that came out on THE CANADIAN at the 88 winter
    Olympics I feel every time I cross the border.
    
    VIVE LA DIFFERENCE!
    

     According to Mr. Rushton, Canada's 4th largest city is Los Angeles.
     Apparently more than 1 million Canadians call LA their home.
    
     Probably the reason the rifle homicide percentage is higher here
    in Canada, than in the US is that we don't arm our citizens with
    Handguns (A weapon of convenience for settling arguments). I too
    would think twice about running down the street with Mr. Rifle in
    hand, it's so obvious, I'd probably get nicked. On the other hand,
    if I owned a Handgun that was under my shirt, well, Blow him away
    Johny.

	Well, furry creatures, here are a few more to warm the cockles:

	"Do you own a handgun?"
		Canada             United States
	Yes       3%			24%
	No	 97%			75%


	"Would you send your children to the other country to attend 
	 university?"
		Canada		   United States
	Yes	  41%		        58%
	No	  58%			39%



	Comments about Canada from well-known Americans:

	"I don't even know what street Canada is on."  - Al Capone

	"Take Canada, and wipe out her commerce."  - President Ulysses S. Grant

	"...that great Republic of Canada."  - repeated twice by President
					       Dwight Eisenhower

	**********************************************************

	"Would you like to live in the other country?"
		Canadians		Americans	
	Yes	  27%			     42%
	No	  73%			     56%
	No opinion			      2%

	***********************************************************
	Quotes from Allan Fotheringham:
		"Americans think medicare is a socialist menace.  Canadians
		 think the lack of an American medicare system is barbaric."

		"Canadians think that American beer is lemonade.  Americans
		 think that our drinking laws came from Ulan Bator.  Both are
		 right."

		"Americans think that professional hockey is a vulgar form
		 of roller derby, demeaned by violence.  Canadians point out
		 that a dozen or so American high school football players die
		 in action each year whereas in the history of the National
		 Hockey League only one man, Bill Masterton, has ever been
		 killed."

    Nobody seems to have noticed that the pollsters only talked to a
    thousand people from each country.  They didn't talk to *me*!  My view
    would represent 1/10 of one per cent in that silly poll.  A thousand
    'Mericans out of what, 240 million now?  Of course, Brutus couldn't
    be wrong, because Brutus is an honorable pollster, right?
    
    And they have the nerve to say that such polls are 96.7% accurate
    95% of the time.  Guess this musta been part of that other 5%, huh?
    
    I finally made it to Canada last year (Quebec and Ontario), and I'm
    going back this summer.  But I don't see any reason we should *annex*
    it, fer crying out loud.
    
    It's kinda nice to get away to a place that's so similar, and yet
    different.  It helps me get a little better perspective on what my own
    country is, and isn't.
    
    Mark

    
    The Maclean's poll issue is quite interesting reading. 
    
    Having lived in both countries, I saw a lot of truth in the statistics.
    Sure the numbers may be off here and there but the attitudes reflected
    seem genuine. 

    I think the best quote in the magazine is from Margaret Atwood,
    she said that the 49th parallel is not the world's longest undefended
    border but rather "the world's longest one-way mirror."
    
    Mike. 

    all this mindless banter generated by a article written by paranoid 
    ontario psuedo-jounalists!  the solution is obvious!  BACK TO THE
    FUTURE.  both canada and the usa become crown colonies once again.
    liz retires, chuck and di take over the whole mess as king and queen.
    
    LONG LIVE 'KING CHUCK'(sounds like a burger place!)
    
    oh ya, give quebec and louisiana to the french or they'll never
    be happy.
    
    :-) 

Ya and we'll give you a course on the use of the caps key!E

Re: Note 198.3 By KAOO01::LAPLANTE
    
>> I'd like to know which Americans were polled. I would guess that
>> it had to be better educated working people. If they went into
>> the slums or poorer sections of the States, I don't think they would
>>...probably even know where we are...   (You think so ? Then consider this-->

The following first appeared in Eugene Carlson's column published by the Wall St
Journal, November 17, 1986, of New York, USA.

"So many of us don't know that New Mexico is part of the United States of Ameri.
 Here is a map I purchased recently that has omitted New Mexico entirely.
  (A reader laments about, "New Mexico falls off map" to Ann Landers)         
                  (READ ON !!)
    
Then there was the young man from New Mexico who applied to 
HARVARD BUSINESS SCHOOL. Back came the school's reply: Since you are an
"international candidate", you must first take a test proving your proficiency
in English.  (Check your local Library for the ref. above if you are in SHOCK !)
                 (READ ON !)
An upstate New York man applied for Social Security numbers for his two 
daughters. He was told they weren't eligible becuase they were born in 
in New Mexico.
                    (Want some MOOOORE ?!)
Mr and Mrs Harold McAskill moved from Florida to New Mexico and notified 
MasterCard of their new address. MasterCard replied, "Since we do not mail
credit cards out of the continental U.S.A., we must temporarily cancel your
account"  

(From Eppie Ledherer's column of March 28, 1987 -all syndicated newspapers)

Roger, I've already told "U" where the polls were taken. Ref. note #198.16

So you see it was those Roinek Intellectuals from the UPPER, UPPER MIddle CRASS
who decided that since New Mexico has fallen off the US map they might as well
add "OUR CANADA" to the union just to make the # 50/51 - plus/minus Peurto Rico .

uninformedly yours,
`ari.

    

    During the free trade negotiations, a pamphlet was published that
    included a map of North America, showing Newfoundland coloured the
    same as the U.S.  Many people were wondering if were trading a province
    for some of our concessions!
    
    That would mean the rest of Canada would have to be the 52nd state.

    Glenn

    
    
    Once the Grand Canal is complete all of this type of geographical
    nonsense will be a thing of the past. Everyone will be aware of
    where they are on the map once the Grand Canal is complete. This
    should also hold true for Americans as they will surely here of
    the completion of the Grand Canal in 1990.
    
    Glenn

    If the first ammendment is "freedom of SPEECH", no problem, just
    don't WRITE it out on a billboard !
    
    Jean
    
    PS The United Staters, being money grubbers, would probably keep
    it as is for tourism, now that Paris is anglicizing with their
    drugstores, pressing, bars...getting ready for EC.
    

	Re .34

>    If the first ammendment is "freedom of SPEECH", no problem, just
>    don't WRITE it out on a billboard !

	The U.S. Supreme Court has used the first amendment to cover
	everything from flag burning to pornographic phone calls (including
	billboards).

	Sorry,
	Tony

    Re 30:
    
    I'll bet most of the institutional goofs about New Mexico came from
    some data processing system translating
    
    		1234 Main St.
    		Foobar
    		New Mexico
    
    into
    
    	Street:	 1234 Main St.
    	City:	 Foobar New
    	Country: Mexico
    
    or something of that sort.  You know, search complete address; examine
    last word & compare against state/country table; if no match, examine
    last *two* words and compare against state/country table.  Or something 
    of that sort.
    
    Then again, the process could have been started by a data entry clerk
    just off the boat from somewhere far away.  Once the computer has
    separated these fields, especially if the accounts then appear on
    separate reports for domestic and foreign transactions, it may not be
    immediately obvious what has happened.
    
    Has anyone ever heard of "British Columbia" turning into "Colombia"?
    It seems like a possibility of the same sort.
    
    Mark

I have never lived in Canada, and probably need to do so for at least a year in
order to make a responsible judgement on this issue.  However, for the sake of 
conversation, let me describe my impressions after spending several days there 
on my vacation.

Things which "seemed" Canadian and/or British:

	- The Queen's picture on the money.
	- Crown's on the highway signs.
	- Corporate names containing terms such as "dominion", "royal", etc.
	- A different cent (doesn't count; every place has a  different accent)
	- About 30% of the people I encountered spoke French
	- The use of chiefly British expressions (such as "bl***y").
	- Metric measurements.

Things which "seemed" American:

	- Just about everything else:
	- Most of content of TV news programs dealt with US news.
	- Financial news was about 80% us and 20% Canadian.
	- Newspapers (especially Globe and Mail) covered 40%-50% US items in 
	  their main sections.
	- One news item even complained that many Canadian businesses and 
	  government buildings were flying US flags (I mean "only" and not
	  "along side the Canadian flag"). 
	- How people dressed, the way they drove, and other behaviors.

Please don't interpret this as meaning I think Canada should become the 51st 
State.  I prefer variability and would rather have it be however-it-is than 
have it get sucked into the Great US Black Hole of uniformity (euphemistically 
referred to as "cultural melting pot").  It's just that, from my few days 
there, I didn't OBSERVE any major differences between Canada and the US <<qua>> 
countries, cultures, etc.  Perhaps because Toronto is so cosmopolitan, it was 
a bad example for me to use in drawing any conclusions.  I don't consider 
Boston (now I'm going to get it!) or Washington DC to be representative cities 
of the US, either.

So, let me ask this:  IS Canada ALREADY the 51st state?  If not, what did I 
fail to observe during my visit?  When I return to Canada in the future 
(provided I'm ALLOWED to return after this outburst), are there other cities I 
should visit for a more accurate picture?

I never had the slightest idea that the US exerts the tremendous influence on 
Canada that it appears to have.  It makes me wonder about the Free Trade 
Agreement and things of that sort which appear to be good for the US, but are 
they also good for Canada?  As a voter ithe US, I see that I have a 
responsibility to my Canadian friends.  I can't merely ask "what's best for 
me?".  I must also ask "what's best for them?" and "what's best for us?".
Please, help me to stay informed and to make responsibile choices.

Your friend south of the border,

Russ Schwartz.

	Re .37

> So, let me ask this:  IS Canada ALREADY the 51st state?  If not, what did I 
> fail to observe during my visit?  When I return to Canada in the future 

	Well, I'm not a Canadian either, but the most obvious answer must
	be the streets were safer. Then there was the customs man checking
	that you were not bringing in any firearms, as there is gun control
	in Canada.
	The murder rate for Canada is much (an order of magnitude?) lower
	than that for the U.S.
	Another cultural difference, which I think was mentioned earlier in
	this note is the Canadian perception that universal health care is a
	good thing.
	Is Canadian culture different? Well, they have three major political
	parties, all to the left of the U.S. Democrats.

	Tony

re .37, Russ
    	
	Another cultural difference you missed during your visit was
   that Canadians do not flush their pet baby alligators down toilets only
   to have them thrive and become giant size menaces in the sewer systems.
   You should have picked up on this when you read the paper ring they
   put on toilet seats in the hotels/motels stating "Sanitized for your 
   protection". Notice how they didn't say "Beware of Alligators"? Not
   only are the streets safer in Canada, but you can also spend hours on the 
   john with complete comfort and confidence. I, for one Canadian, do not 
   take that kind of piece of mind for granted.

	Glenn

>>>	Another cultural difference you missed during your visit was
>>>   that Canadians do not flush their pet baby alligators down toilets only
>>>   to have them thrive and become giant size menaces in the sewer systems.

Thanks, I'll remember that for my next trip.  One of my great disappointments 
was that I did not have time to tour the Toronto Sewer System.  That's first on 
my list for next time!

Russ.

    Maybe the prevalent similarities between the two countries is because
    they are sister states of English-Speaking North America, and have made 
    similar choices about many of the things they consider best, rather than
    purely because one sister forced its preferences on the other.
    
    Then again, maybe not.
    
    We now return control to the sewer talk...

    Russ,
    
    One thing about touring the Toronto Sewer System is that they give
    you the royal "treatment", as it were. Also note that it's the only
    spot in the city where you'll be able to see any real culture so
    it's definately a must on your next visit.
    
    Glenn ;-)
    
    (I've got my left up)

	Hopefully, we will soon rise above this 'gutter' talk and 'warp'
	back to the black hole topic.

	By the way, Toronto's sanitary sewer system will be a tad cleaner
	once the connection to the Grand Canal is made.

	Pat

Re: 36 
>> I'll bet most of the institutional goofs about New Mexico came from some
data processing system translating..>>

Plausible , yet you might want to come out with another "theory" to explain
the real people who were polled for the survey, cuz ignorance of basic geography
has nothing to do with "data processing system" - not in this case at least.

Athens,Georgia, (Associated Press) reports:
Only **one** of 340 University of Georgia students who took a geography test
correctly labeled 40 points on a world map, said the instructor who gave the 
test. The average score was 15, said James Heyl, a/professor of geopraphy.
(Source: Free Press, March 12 1985.)

WASHINGTON, - In a poll taken by Gallup Survey, this question was asked:
"What is the capital of the United States..?" 95% of the 1,611 respondents
got it right ! 64 respondents flat out didn't know. 11 respondents put the 
capital somewhere else. 23 percent failed to locate the Pacific Ocean.
Between April 30 and May 14, 10,820 persons in NINE countries were quizzed
in Geography. 80% of the US respondents had at least a high school education.
The US placed 7th out of the nine nations. (Aug,3rd 1988, newspaper)
    (The syndicated column of, James Kilpatrick, a conservative D.C.journalist.

OSHKOSH,Wisconsin - John A. Cross, an assistant professor of geography at the
University of Wisconsin-Oshkosh, said none of the students confronted with a
world map could find all 11 nations (at the time of test) involved in major
news events. (An Associated Press - report) 
CLUE ?
In 1982, of the 5,000 geopraphy teachers in junior high and high school, 
20 to 30 percent **had not taken ** any geography classes in college, 30%
had taken **only** one or two courses; 30% had minored in it and **only**
10% had majored in geography. (A statement by Susan Hanson - a professor of
geography at Clark University quoted in "Boston Globe" Nov. 2nd 1986)

So it was that, a few years ago some 6th graders (junior high) were asked
to find the United States on a map, TWENTY PERCENT pointed to BRAZIL .
 (from same "Globe" article above)

A Texas resident talking to a New Mexico county courthouse telephone operator
inquires: "If it's Friday in Texas, will be Friday in New Mexico ?" 
(From page 10a "Free Press" March 28th 1987) (Please pull a map & compare) 

There's more but I'll save the rest of the references for another topic !

re:36 >> Then again the process could have been started by a data entry clerk
just off the boat from somewhere far away ...>> 

Do you mean like someone from the "Mayflower" boatpeople which landed at
Plymouth, Mass. USA from a hamlet on isle of whight - england ?
Or is your statement cryptographic ? 
  
If you stick to the "data processing system" to explain a pathetic ingnorance
of basic geography then the "entry clerks" could possibly be college graduates.
November 1986 - I was having dinner with three other friends in a "Ground Round"
restaurant. (a group of four.) The two female friends were from western,
Mass, New England - an area known as the "Berkshire Counties". The other friend
was an immigrant who had immigrated to Montreal, from Ashdod, Isreal. During the
course of the meal, a question was asked at the table, "On what continent will
you place Morocco ?" These two friends in unison, "South-America ?" BTW:
They are what might be termed "WASP" -  both of Scottish-Irish-German descent.
The immigrant from Ashdod, Isreal was the one who politely corrected them.
    As if that is not enough, this year around March, I was speaking with a 
woman who is a high school teacher in the classics ,(Greek, Latin, French)
and mentioned that I'll be attending a conference in Ottawa. She said to me,
"Ottawa, is that the capital of Montreal ?" Please don't giggle, cause I didn't.
BTW: Her husband is a professor at the city's local University - with a Ph.D
in his field, she has a post graduate education in the classics, obviously not
on the "bottom of the class ladder". 

    Re: 31 & 32 - Are you saying that "apres free trade & grand canal le deluge" !?
We'll be  allll set ? 

Re:33  >> taking Montreal-Quebec out of Canada into the US >> 
He must be a nostalgic from the eastern townships, who recollects the days gone
when Gen. Montgommery marched into Montreal, Quebec just before the start of the
American war for independence. For those wondering. On Nov. 13th the US general
occupied Montreal, for the rest of the 1775-1776 winter. As a matter of fact
McGill was one of the militia that tried to repel the attack. Yes "THE McGill"
who founded McGill Univserity. 
  So now "WE" know why "some" will like Canada to be the 51st state - geography
and nostalgia ...etc.

`ari. 

    This came up in another note. Please don't take offence but some
    of you down below (i.e. the U.S.A.) are having problems making a
    distinction between the use of the words "immigrate" and emmigrate".
    
    Immigrate is used when someone comes from another country
    
    e.g. He/She immigrated from Ireland to the U.S.
    
    Emmigrate is used when one goes to another country
    
    e.g. He/She emmigrated to Ireland from Canada.
    
    Immigrate - come from
    
    Emmigrate - go to
    
    I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion.
    
    I shall now sit and wait for Mr. Patrick Rushton Esq. rips the livin'
    daylights out of me.
    
    Ted.
    
    P.S. Pat, be gentle.

< Note 198.45 by DUB02::EGRI >

<<Emmigrate - go to

<<I shall now sit and wait for Mr. Patrick Rushton Esq. rips the livin'
<<daylights out of me.
    
Never fear Ted, me lad.  One minor point though, 'emigrate' has only one
'm' and the 'z' is silent. ;^)

Pat

re. Note 198.44 by BTOVT::BOATENG_K 

	Reminds me of one canadian former Prime Minister who goofed it
while having an official visit to Japan. He asked the locals:

	"In what season of the year are you in ?"

RE:-1

>	Reminds me of one canadian former Prime Minister who goofed it
>while having an official visit to Japan. He asked the locals:
>
>	"In what season of the year are you in ?"
>

That doesn't sound so strange, and certanly shouldn't qualify as a goof. I 
spent 2 months in Japan this year (March and April) and the seasons are a bit 
different. Tokyo is closer to the equator than we are in Canada, and so the 
season start-dates are not the same.  In late April in Japan (tokyo) spring is 
over.  The cherry-blossems are dead, and everything is green.  When I got home 
at the end of April, it was bloody cold here (ottawa). It wasn't spring.

A valid question in other words.

Fred

    About the former P.M., is it the question itself that you found amusing
    or the fact that it began and ended with a preposition?
    
    Ted

    Ted, you kill me!!
    
    Glenn

    GLENN,
    
     DO I TAKE THAT TO ME MEAN THAT YOU FIND ME AMUSING (I HOPE) OR
     IS THE CONNOTATION THAT YOU FIND ME A PAIN IN THE BUTTOCKS (I HOPE
    NOT)
    
    TED.

    Ted, you don't have to shout. I know you're in Dublin but I can
    hear you just fine. The stuff about the prepositions was funny but
    what I would like to know is: how do you feel about the Grand Canal
    and how it affects Canadians and Albertans as well?
                                    
    Glenn

Glenn,
    
    I know there's a Grand Canal in Dublin but as far as the one at
    home all I know is what you and Pitrack have told me here in this
    notesfile. I would appreciate more information about the Canadian
    one especially
    
    1. Does it really exist?
    
    2. How in God's name could it possibly affect anyone in Alberta?
    
    Yours Seriously,
    
    ted

Re: 47 & 48

Speaking of geo-goofs, some years ago a then president of the US was on a
trip to some South-American nations, while in Brazil he proposed a toast 
saying: "Here is a toast, to the people of BOLIVIA.."  He was tactfully 
corrected and so he continued by saying.."that's where I'am going (next)"
Fact is, his next stop was in Columbia. 

(It was reported on a Dec. 2nd 19?? - clue, an Associated Press report..
Anybody "old enough" to remember ?

re: Climate & seasons of Japan - 99% of the islands of Japan lie within Latitude
30 to 45 degrees north and between longitude 115 & 145 degrees (east of the 
meridian)

By comparison, most of the inhabited parts of Canada lie within Latitude 45 and
70 degrees north, between longitude 50 to 140 degrees west of the meridian.
(I'am sure  those  polled were informed of where the "new state of Canada"
 is gonna be, after all they had to pass a geography test before they were 
polled) 

I.M.`Ari_who_notes_a_few_Km_from_lat.45_degrees_N_between_long_74_&_73_west.
  
    

    RE: slips of the { tongue }
    		     { brain  }
    
    My mother used to accidentally address my brother by the dog's name:
    
    	Come here, Pingo -- I mean Rich...
    
    That doesn't mean she couldn't tell the difference.
    
    When a President makes a slip of the tongue, it is recorded,
    transcribed, and blasted around the world.  When my mother makes a slip
    of the tongue, we all laugh and go on about our business.
    
    Mark

Well, I get to eat some of the words I "spoke" earlier about US domination of 
the Canadian media:

On NPR's "Morning Edition" today it was announced that Canada has started its 
own equivalent of the US's Cable News Network (I forget the title, now).  It 
ended up coming into being as a result of a major Canadian political issue 
known as "Information Sovereignty".

It turns out that CNN is one of the few US cable channels licensed in Canada.  
People were complaining that CNN is focused on New York, Washington, Chicago, 
LA, etc.  They wanted a news network focused on Ottawa, Toronto, Calgary, 
Vancouver, etc.  There were also complains that US news tends to be too 
"glossy" (TELL me about it!) when Canadians want more in-depth coverage (8 
minute stories vs 3 minute stories).

The "Information Sovereignty" issue has been pretty heated, I learned.  Some 
people feel it is justified for the reasons I gave above.  Others feel it's 
just an ultra-conservative over-nationalistic reaction.

Okay, what do YOU folks have to say about this?

Russ Schwartz.

     Haven't had much of a chance to see the new news channel in action,
    but, you know us, we prefer to do it our way thanks.

    re: ..56
    
    CNN currently reaches about 1.3 million homes in Canada, yet there
    is no news coverage of Canada.  I'd say CNN blew an opportunity
    to get in first.
    
    The CBC Newsworld station will be available on basic cable, thus
    getting to homes than CNN never reached.  It never really bacme
    a political issue though.  The only dispute was the fact that the
    CBC got the rights for the network instead of a private company
    from Edmonton.
    
    Glenn

>>>I'd say CNN blew an opportunity
    to get in first.
    
       Glenn

CBC has a contract with CNN to provide news feeds. As most
of the news are aimed at travelling Americans, you can bet that
the contents are pro-American. Even their world report and News
from Japan has a slant to the news that is distinctly
pro-American.

cal hoe

In that case, I think it's Peter Jenning's patriotic duty to slant the news 
HERE to be pro-Canadian...

Russ Schwartz.

    The main reason that Canada has not been made the 51st state is
    that nobody's been able to figure out where to put the 51st star
    in the flag.  If we let Peurto Rico join at the same time, we'd
    at least have an even number of 52.  That would make it easier.
    
    Let's see now, before Alaska and Hawaii joined we had 6 rows of 8.
    52 divided by...  hmmn, maybe if we forgot about P.R. and just remade
    the current design with little maple leaves instead of stars, how would
    that be?  Or better yet, how 'bout if we made it 13 stripes with
    one big maple leaf in the corner?
    
    How many provinces are there anyway?  If we add that number to 50,
    do we come out with an even number?          
    

	Re .61

	To be picky,

>    Let's see now, before Alaska and Hawaii joined we had 6 rows of 8.

	I don't think Alaska and Hawaii joined on the same date.

	To continue,

	I heard on Radio Canada International that there is a "Quebec 51"
	party contesting the Quebec provincial election on a platform that
	Quebec should leave Canada and join the U.S.A. It sounded like a
	fringe group. How fringe?

	Tony

    As a Statesider who enjoys vacationing in Canada, I'd welcome some real
    Canadian news on CNN.  I'd like to know more about what concerns you
    folks (to the extent that Big News depicts reality *anywhere* --
    but that's another topic).
    
    Having just come back from a delightful week in the unfrozen north, and
    seeing once again how clean and properous-looking all the communities,
    large and small, north of Lake Ontario seem, and having reentered the
    U.S. via northernmost New York State (yuck!), I wonder if maybe the
    question ought to be
    
    	Should the U.S. become the (n+1)th province?
    
    On the other hand, the drivers in Toronto, and even in the small towns,
    were certainly no more polite than anywhere else in North America.
    In Penetanguishene, my wife and I crossed the street just as the light
    turned yellow.  We were in front of the line of traffic when the light
    went red, and the woman at the head of the line eased her car forward
    just enough to graze my wife's leg with her car's bumper.  Great
    timing, but a lousy thing to do!
    
    So maybe none of us have it *all* right.
    
    Mark

    
.63>    	Should the U.S. become the (n+1)th province?
    
    Since CNN won't tell me what's going on, I'll have to resort to reading
    old notes.  I see that the question of "How many provinces?", as well
    as the sentiment I expressed in .63, has all been provided before:
    
    
              <<< KAOSWS::$1$DUA3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANADA.NOTE;1 >>>
                  -< CANADA - The True North Strong and Free >-
================================================================================
Note 198.4           Canada as 51st U.S. state - Aye or Nay?             4 of 63
KAOA12::SMELLIE                                       4 lines  27-JUN-1989 08:57
                       -< Part of the poll was missing. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In my circle of friends, the popular opinion is that the United
    States would make a pretty fair eleventh province.
    
    Tom
    

    What an American Humorist has to say ...
    
    
    Scooter
    
             <<< HYDRA::DISK$USERPACK02:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DAVE_BARRY.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -<  Dave Barry - Noted humorist  >-
================================================================================
Note 553.0                      CANADIAN CULTURE                      No replies
CPDW::RENNIE                                         86 lines  10-SEP-1989 11:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



			CANADIAN CULTURE

	by Dave Barry, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist
       copied from the Boston Sunday Globe, Sept. 10, 1989


People often say to me, "Dave, when you say you're not making something up,
does that mean you're really and truly not making it up?"  And the answer is
yes.  Meaning no, I am not making it up.  I mention this so you'll believe me
when I say that I'm not making up today's topic, which is:  the Head-Smashed-
In Buffalo Jump.

The Head-Smashed_In Buffalo Jump is a historical site and tourist attraction in
Alberta, Canada.  Canada, as you know, is a major important nation boasting a
sophisticated, cosmopolitan culture that was tragically destroyed last week by
beavers.

Ha ha!  Don't mind me.  I like to toss out little "zingers" about Canada from
time to time because I enjoy getting mounds of letters from irate Canadians who
are Sick and Tired of Americans belittling Canada and who often include
brochures full of Impressive Canadian Facts, such as that Canada is the world's
largest producer of magnesium dentures as well as the original home of Michael
J. Fox, Big Bird, Plato, etc.

The thing is, I like Canada.  It's clean, and it makes good beer.  Also, it has
a spirit of general social cooperation that you find lacking in the States, a
good example being the metric system.  You may recall that a while back we were
all supposed to convert to the metric system from our current system of
measurement, which is technically known as the "correct" or "real" system.  The
metric conversion was supposed to result in major economic benefits deriving
from the fact that you, the consumer, would suddenly have no idea how the hell
much anything cost.  Take cole slaw.  Under the current system, cole slaw is
sold in easily understood units of measurement called "containers," as in
"Gimme one of them containers of cole slaw if it's fresh."  In a metric
supermarket, however, the deli person would say, "How much do you want?  A
kilometer?  A hectare?  Hurry up!  My break starts in five liters!"  You'd get
all confused and wind up buying enough cole slaw to fill a wading pool, and
the economy would prosper.

Meanwhile, the Canadians, being cooperative, quietly went ahead and actually
converted.  I know this because I was on a Canadian radio program once, and the
host announced that the temperature was "8."  This was obviously a lie, so I
asked him about it, and he confided, off the air, that the real temperature, as
far as he knew, was around 40.  But then his engineer said he thought it was
more like 50, and soon other radio personnel were chiming in with various other
interpretations of "8," and I was struck by the fact that these people had
cheerfully accepted, in a spirit of cooperation, a system wherein *nobody
really knew what the temperature was.*  (The correct mathematical answer is : 
chilly.)

The point I am making is that Canada is a fascinating and mysterious country,
which is why we should not be surprised to learn that it is the location of the
Head-Smashed_In Buffalo Jump historical site and tourist attraction.  I found
out about this from an extremely alert reader named Sandy LaFave, who sent me
an article from The Fort McLeod Tourist Greeter that explains the whole
buffalo-jump concept.

It seems that many moons ago (in metric, 14.6 megamoons), North America was
occupied by large and, fortunately, very stupid herds of buffalo.  Certain
Native American tribes used to obtain their food by disguising themselves in
buffalo skins and going from tepee to tepee shouting "Trick or Treat!"

No, seriously, according to The Fort McLeod Tourist Greeter, they disguised
themselves so they could lure a buffalo herd closer and closer to a cliff, then
stampede it over the edge.  That's where the "Buffalo Jump" part of the name
comes from.  The "Head-Smashed-In" part comes from a native legend, which holds 
that, one time, a young brave (probable tribal name: "Not Nuclear Physicist")
decided to watch the hunt while standing under the cliff.  According to The
Tourist Greeter, he "watched the buffalo topple in front of him like a mighty
waterfall.  When it was over and the natives were butchering the animals, they
found him, under the pile of dead buffalo with his head smashed in."

Even thousands of years later, it is difficult to ponder this tragedy without
choking back large, moist snorts of anguish.  But some good has come of it. 
the Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump has been declared a World Heritage Site ("as
are the pyramids in Egypt and the Taj Mahal in India," notes The Tourist
Greeter).  The Alberta government has constructed an interpretive centre (note
metric spelling) where activities are held.  "There's always something to see
and do at the Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump Interpretive Centre, and this summer
is no exception," states an official schedule.  I have called the centre, and
when they answer the phone, they say, very politely - I absolutely swear this
is true - "Head Smashed In, may I help you?"

And the scary part is, I think maybe they *can*.

    For anyone who liked the style of humour (metric spelling) in the
    preceding article, hit 7 on your keypad to add the Dave Barry
    Conference to your notes directory.
    
    Glenn

 BEYOND THE HUMO(U)R: WHEN MONTREAL WAS PART OF US:  
----------------------------------------------------
 In 1775, an American army entered the city of Montreal, marching through the
 Recollet Gate that stood where McGill and Notre Dame Streets intersect today.
 The American force was commanded by Gen. Richard Montgomery, sent north by 
 his superior officer who believed the capture of Canada was vital to the 
 success of the American Revolution. 
     The British governor, Guy Carlton didn't have the resources to defend
 Montreal, and after a short campaign against the advancing army he fled and
 abondoned the city to the American army. 
   The American occupation of Montreal lasted about six months, and Montgomery
 later was killed in a battle in an attempt to capture Quebec City .
 While the American army was in Montreal they set up headquarters in the
 Chateau Ramezay, the colonial-era house that still stands on Notre Dame St.
 Meanwhile, Montgomery occupied another house at the corner of Notre Dame and
 St. Pierre Sts. This house, considered one of the city's finest, belonged to
 a merchant and fur trader Jean Le Grand. 
 
  
  Any further thoughts, elaboration..?  Did Montreal gain or not ?
    

Re: Note 198.67   "BEYOND THE HUMO(U)R: WHEN MONTREAL WAS PART OF US:"  
        
<<In 1775, an American army entered the city of Montreal...vital to the
<<success of the American Revolution. 

It was a bit premature, don't you think, as the revolution didn't start
until 1776!

<<...a merchant and fur trader Jean Le Grand. 

After whom the Grand Canal was named. 
  
<<Any further thoughts, elaboration..?  Did Montreal gain or not ?

Maybe if I elaborate on events that occurred during the War of 1812-1814,
you might wish to answer the same questions about Detroit and Washington.

In August of 1812, General Isaac Brock led his men against Detroit which
was defended by a seemingly impregnable fort and a large force of American
soldiers led by General William Hull.  Although outnumbered, the British,
Canadian and Indian force captured Detroit by ruse rather than by 'blood
and iron'.  They occupied Detroit for over a year, until Sept. 1813.  Consid-
ering the present state of that city, do you think Detroit would have gained
or not, if the Canadian forces had remained? 8^)

On 19th of August 1814, 4,500 of 'Wellington's Invincibles' landed at Benedict,
Maryland and began the march towards Washington, commanded by Major-General
Robert Ross.  This was possible because the British fleet, led by Rear-Admiral
George Cockburn had harassed the settlements along the Chesapeake Bay for the
entire summer (in earlier years, he might have been referred to as a buccaneer),
and seized the entire American flotilla of gunboats.

The first battle on the march to Washington occurred at Bladensburg where
the British routed a force that was nearly twice their number.  Since
President Madison assumed that the American force was so superior as to insure 
victory, he was back in the Oval Office preparing for a victory dinner.  After
hearing of the loss at Bladensburg, the Madison's flee Washington leaving the
victory table still set!

Ross and Cockburn entered the city on 24th August, 1814.  In retaliation
for the wanton firing of Canadian towns and villages along Lake Erie
and Lake Ontario by marauding American soldiers, the British destroyed
the Capitol building, the Treasury building, the President's Mansion (later
painted white to cover-up the embarassment) and many other homes and buildings
before leaving.

Do you think Washington gained, or not, when Madison returned and the British
had left, considering the condition Washington is in now? 8^)

Pat