Conference kaosws::canada

    It all depends what country your friend is emigrating from.

     My friend is coming over  from  Hong  Kong.   Does  it  make  any

difference?



Thanks,

ava

    In general, there is "free" travel between the US and Canada.
    I'm a US citizen who relatively regularly drives through Ontario
    on the way to and from the American Midwest. No passport is
    needed to cross the border. I've never (at least in the last
    five years --- before then, it'd been ten years since I'd
    previously been in Canada and I don't recall the situation then)
    even been asked to show any I.D. at all. Going into Canada, my
    travelling companion and I are usually asked: (1) What's your
    citizenship? (2) Where are you headed? (3) How long will you be
    in Canada? and (4) What are you carrying other than clothing
    and other personal effects? Analogous questions are asked on the
    way back into the US.
    
    I suspect that the situation is pretty much the same for a Canadian
    entering the US. In the case of your friend, the fact that she is
    immigrating from another country may complicate matters. She may
    need a passport or birth certificate and possibly some sort of
    official document saying he/she is a new resident of Canada and
    has applied for Canadian citizenship.

    But I'm really just guessing. The best place to go for advice
    is a US Consulate. If there's no consulate near you, you might
    try the nearest Canadian Immigration office. I'm sure that they
    could at least tell you how to go about finding out the answers
    to your questions if they can't answer them themselves.
    
    As for it making a difference where your friend is originating
    from, yes. The US is rather paranoid when it comes to visitors
    from countries with certain ideologies. Hong Kong shouldn't be
    a problem, but if it was, say, North Korea, that'd be a different
    matter.
    
    --- jerry

	Jerry is quite correct about some of the questions that may be
asked on either side of the border, and that the best answer is to
contact a Canadian Consulate.  However, to give you some advice from
my own experience over the past 10 years of trans-border travel, I can
say this:

	1) If you are asked, "Where were you born?" you'll have to either
           have a Canadian birth certificate, or a valid passport AND a
           visa to enter the US of A if you are not a Canadian citizen.
        2) If you are asked, "Are you a Canadian citizen?" then you must
           have either a Canadian citizen card, or a Canadian passport,
           or a Canadian birth certificate.  If you are not a Canadian
           citizen you will need a valid passport AND a visa.

	I arrived in Canada from England with my mother when I was 9 months
old the day after Franklin Roosevelt died, and my mother had registered me
at Canada House in London in 1944, as a Canadian since my father was Canadian.
After living in Canada for 24 years, I applied for a passport to go Europe
on my honeymoon in 1968.  The Department of Immigration had no record of
me, and hence I was not a Canadian and ineligible for a passport!

	Fortunately, it was a mere formality to obtain Canadian citizenship
and then re-apply for the passport but whenever I travel to the US of A,
I'm invariably asked the 'wrong' question by US Immigration, "Where were
you born?".  Of course, I answer, "England." and I'm asked to show proof
of Canadian citizenship (passport or citizenship card).  If I couldn't
show proof of Canadian citizenship, I would have to show my British passport
(which I recently received) AND a visa to enter the US.  Needless to say,
I always carry my Canadian passport with me whenever I travel abroad ( which
includes the US ).

	It would appear that your friend should obtain a visa from the US 
embassy in either Hong Kong or Canada, if she wishes to travel to the US from 
Canada.  Some humble advice from one who has lived in Canada for the last
43 years.

Obfuscatingly yours,

Pat

    I think Hong Kong is still a "Crown Colony", thus your friend would
    be considered a British subject. As far as I know, all British subjects
    (except Canadian citizens) require visas to travel in the USA. The
    last time I had visitors over from England on British Passports,
    they had visas issued in by the US embassy in England to allow them
    to travel into the USA.
    
    Usually, when I travel, Customs asks "What is your citizenship?",
    so once your friend becomes a Canadian citizen, ther will be no
    problems at all.

    
    
    
    Canadian citizens are not British subjects.

59.6>>Canadian citizens are not British subjects.

	Oh yes dey is!  To quote the inside cover of the Canadian
passport,

	"The Secretary of State for External Affairs of Canada
         requests, IN THE NAME OF HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN, all
         those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass 
         freely without let or hindrance and to afford the
         bearer such assistance and protection as may be
         necessary."

In the not too distant past, the phrase, " A Canadian citizen is
a British subject." but that statement was removed from the recent
version of the passport.  The statement was removed, not the fact
of Canadians remaining to be subjects of the British Crown, as
indicated by, "in the name of Her Majesty the Queen".

	BTW, the British passport has the same statement except for
the opening phrase, "Her Britannic Majesty's Principal Secretary
of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs requests and requires	
in the name of Her Majesty all those..." etc., etc.

	That may be a misfortune to some but it still remains a fact
until we remove the Governor-General and elect/select a president,
otay?

Yours majestically,

Pat

As a British subject and a landed immigrant in Canada, soon to be a
citizen, I can tell you what works for me.

When your friend arrives in Canada as an immigrant she will be given a 
piece of paper by the immigration authorities at the port of entry.  
This paper is an official indication of her status in Canada and she
should attach it to her passport. 

Then she will be able to travel to the US with her passport and paper 
but without a visa, as she can prove that she is a bona fide resident of
Canada. 

I have been doing this for years and never had a problem at the border. 

    
    	According to some anonymous bureaucrat in the Department of
    the Secretary of State, Canadian citizens are not Britsh subjects.
    
    	It's possible that British subjects remain British subjects
    after becoming Canadian citizens; I don't know, and I didn't ask
    the bureaucrat.
    
    	The Queen is, of course, Queen of Canada and Head of the 
    Commonwealth.  This doesn't make us British subjects.

Re: 59.9

	My source is not anonymous and I shall be quite specific, although
I fear we are going down a rat-hole and are off the subject of this note.

                    Citizenship Act 
                     (15 Feb. 1977)
Page 17, Part VIII, Sections 31 & 32, Status of Persons in Canada:

	"Any law in Canada referring to British Subject shall refer
         to Citizen of the Commonwealth after enactment ..."

	According to my source, Dorothy Thornton (994-2427), Advisor Special
Categories of the Office of Assistant Under Secretary of State (Citizenship),
she states that the change in wording is just that - in wording only.
In fact, we are still subjects of the Crown but there was an objection to
the phrase 'British Subject', so to appease those objections it was altered
but our 'subject'-iveness remains.

	I think we have gone as far as we should, considering the original
request in 59.0.

Yours in subjectivity,

Pat

If I could be so obnoxious as to continue the beyond-the-scope portion of this 
discussion:  I am now thoroughly confused.  What exactly is the relationship 
between Canada and England?  I'm not asking whether Canadians are British 
subjects, or whether the Queen is the queen of Canada, etc.

What I mean is:  Does Britain in any way, control Canada?  This is a two part 
question, really:  (1) Are there any people, appointed, elected, etc by Britain 
who have executive control over any/all of Canada?  (2) Can the British 
Parliament enact laws which Canadians must obey?  If so, can the Canadian 
Parliament enact laws which supercede, nullify, etc these laws?

I guess I'm really asking a question about sovereignty (sp?).  As an 
ignorant-about-world-affairs-US-citizen, I always thought all that stuff about 
the Queen's picture on money, King's Highways, etc., primarily reflected 
TRADITION, and that Canada was a fully independent country.  The above 
responses lead me to believe that it might not be.  Is Canada's relationship to 
Britain more like the US's semi-pseudo-quasi-relationship to Puerto Rico?

Russ Schwartz.

59.11>>Now I'm REALLY Confused!!! 

>>Does Britain in any way, control Canada? 
>>(1) Are there any people, appointed, elected, etc by Britain 
>>who have executive control over any/all of Canada?  (2) Can the British 
>>Parliament enact laws which Canadians must obey?  

>>Is Canada's relationship to Britain more like the US's 
>>semi-pseudo-quasi-relationship to Puerto Rico?


Russ,
	No.


Yours concisely,

Pat

     I believe Canada  was  once  a  British  Colony,  but  it  is  an

independent  country now.  I think the relationship between Canada and

U.K.  is more or less the same as the relationship  between  Australia

and U.K.  (correct me if I am wrong here...)



re 59.5



     My friend was born in Hong Kong, and she is "sort of"  a  British

Subject.   A "HongKongese" carries a speical passport which looks like

a British passport but does not even come close when it gets  down  to

the "citizen rights." (oops, I do sound kind of sore, don't I!)



re 59.8



     Q:   How  long  can  you  stay  in  the  U.S.?   Does  the   U.S.

Immigration office stamp a leaving date on your passport?



ava :-)

Re: Note 59.13 

>>>     Q:   How  long  can  you  stay  in  the  U.S.?   Does  the   U.S.
>>>Immigration office stamp a leaving date on your passport?

When I travelled to the US (before immigrating to Canada) they used to 
staple a 'permit' in my passport which indicated when I should leave.  I 
think I could stay up to 3 months, but the permit reflected the length of 
the stay that I had declared on entry.

Since I now have landed immigrant status, they just ask the questions and 
then I go on my merry way.  No stamps, no paperwork, no hassle.  I think
that the length of stay is still up to three months but as I never stay
more than a week or three I can't be certain. 

Detail like that you can easily check with the local US consular office.

Bob

As a Canuck living in the States, I never leave home without my passport and
all visa related documentation.  The Canadian Customs and Immigration treat
me like an American (N.H. plates on the car, see) when I'm heading North
and the U.S. Customs and Immigration treat me like the frost-back that I
am when I'm returning South. Neither side would believe me unless I was fully 
documented.  Even my dear old ma who's a certified Legal Alien (flashing
lights and wierd music) still gets hassled from time to time.

Bottom line = don't leave home without it (your documentation that is).  

As far as how long you can stay in the States sans entrance visa, 90 days is 
the going Tourist Visa, and a passport from most any country will do.  If 
your friend flies, buses, or trains in, they may ask to see a return ticket.  
If your friend is very young (teen age class, jeans, pink hair) they may 
require proof that your friend has enough money to survive for the period of 
time they've stated that they'll be staying in the U.S.

Problems at the border are pretty rare, though, and as long as you're prepared
for the worst, you'll probably have a very pleasant time.

And if we're not in any way connected to the British Crown, then how come
the Canadian Parliment is opened by Her Majesty or Her appointed representitive
the Govenor General?  Brian giving the Speech from the Throne?  Shocking, quite
shocking.

Bye

Marc