Conference kaosws::canada

    If "IT" is booze, then it may not be better but it sure is cheaper!
    
    Ron

    Made in Canada only implies that they're clones of other 
    products. 

    (Hi Arpad!)
    
    When's the last time the USA had a CN tower before Canada? Where
    was the phone invented? The Canadarm?.....Sorry, things Canadian
    are NOT imitations.
    
    I agree, IT has the connotation the IT is Better if it comes from
    the USA. But it's not limited to just the US. What about things
    European, or these days, things Japanese? Personally, I feel that
    so many times, there is some kind of inferiority complex. quite
    unfounded, when Canadians do things, they get done right the first
    time. Which is just why the US now has a lot to fear from free trade
    right now (~;

    Arpad,
    I am extremely disapointed bythe diversion you are creating to the
    "Sarnia Conference". The subject you are trying to deal with in
    "what's wrong with Canadian" is a natural fit for the "Sarnia
    Conference" which as you may have noticed deals with all kind of
    hot and patritic issue.
    So I suggest that we all leave this conference right away and meet
    later at "Sarnia confrence" (conf 53 in the Canada directory).

    Arpad:
    
      Don't just leave the conference, leave!!

    This is either what's wrong with being Canadian, or possibly what's
right with Canada: 

    Last week here in TO, there was a security truck carrying money on
the Gardiner Expressway.  The back doors flew open, and at about 3 in
the afternoon, 3 bags of $75,000 each hit the pavement.  They are hit by
numerous cars, but they are sturdy bags and only one of them bursts.  
There is money flying thick in the air, cars are screeching to a halt, 
no accidents though.  People jump out and start collecting.  The two 
bags that haven't burst go first, then people start working on the loose 
bills.  The security guard has run back, he warns people to leave the 
money where it lies.  He has to wave his gun before they stop.  

    So far, this could happen anywhere.  What comes next is the tipoff 
that we are in Canada.

1) some motorist is taking the licence plates of the people who 
   grab a few bills
2) The police act on the plate numbers.  Next day, a house is raided,
   and a cabby is arrested when the cops find $500 in a bundle in his 
   house.
3) All kinds of honest Torontonians start handing in money they picked 
   up.  Several are pictured in the papers handing over the $10 dollar
   bill they picked up.  Civic duty, that's all I found, really...
   The papers put captions under like: "Honest Torontonians come through"
4) The part I like best: a real interview with a security company
   official and a CBC announcer.  
     CBC: "Why would people behave like that?"
     Loomis: "I really don't know, can't understand it...."

   I guess the missing cynicism might have its good points, but it is
all a bit incredibly straight faced for me.... I wonder if the Royal
Canadian Air Farce boys did a number on that in their show last
Saturday... 

Richard C reporting from "Toronto the Good"...

    Let us remember that $300,000 was lost and only $20,000 has been
    returned. Tell me, what would you do if you were in that traffic
    jam?
    
    Ron.
    
    PS: I believe it was an act of God!

    My point if any in .-2 was just: Let's suppose this happened in any
other metropolitan area of around 3.5 million in the world.  Would local
radio stations and newspapers profess to be shocked that people are so
greedy as to grab the money?  Matter of fact, seems to me there was
something similar in a US area within the last year or so.  If I recall,
the news accounts were more along the line of how lucky the people were
who got the cash. 

    Mind you, part of what I like about Canada is that people expect
other people to be decent, and honest.  But to say they can't understand
why anyone would grab that money.... I mean really... 

    I am a Canadian (from Montreal) living in Dublin, Ireland and have
    noticed that the Irish suffer from much the syndrome as ourselves.
    Living next to a large, economically powerful country has it problems
    when you're trying to maintain a self-image.
    
    The parrallels -- Canada to US, Ireland to England --  are numerous.
    
    The big guys tend to make a hell of a lot of noise about the things
    they do simply because they have vast amounts of money to make those
    noises. In Ireland, Americans are GENERALLY seen as loud, brash,
    conceited and very ignorant of the the ways in the countries they
    are visiting. And yet they are blind to people laughing at them
    behind their backs. Please note I said generally not totally.
    
    But I do agree that Americans tend to come out with a lot of things
    first. The tendency seems to be get it out fast who cares about
    the quality. The advantage for other nations is, right let them
    get it out first and then we can learn by their mistakes and hopefully
    do a much better job with what they have already produced.
    
    As for myself I'm glad that CANADA is not as big and powerful as
    the U.S. I'd hate to think we were targets for crazies from a great
    many nations who would love nothing more than to take a pot shot
    at a Yank. 
    
    Ted.        
    very ignorant

    Please disregard "very ignorant" coming afetr my name at the end
    of the last reply. That should read "ignorant".

Re: .11 & .12
>    ....... In Ireland, Americans are GENERALLY seen as loud, brash,
>    conceited and very ignorant of the the ways in the countries they
>    are visiting. ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^
     ^^^ ^^^^^^^^
Yeah, like, no one else acts that way when they come to the States from
another country, right?  Funny thing about foreigners: they act SOOO foreign.
Sheesh... gimme a break.

>    very ignorant
>    ................ That should read "ignorant".

What's the difference Ted?  You said it yourself, here, for all the world
to see.  Nothing like a smart-ass Canadian living in Ireland who knows
himself well.

Kip (who is STILL PROUD to be an AMERICAN!)

p.s. YANK *MY* Doodle, it's a Dandy!

    
    Ted,
    
    Kip does have a, uh,............POINT, if you get my drift...............

    Hi Kip,
    
    First of all, I apologize for what you obviously took as a case
    of Yankee bashing. It was not meant that way, well not completely.
    Whether Canadians like it or not our way of life and out culture
    is very much like that of the U.S. I have to admit that whenever
    I hear Irish people making cracks about Americans I do get pissed
    off. The Irish are a bit ironic in the sense that they give out
    about the Americans in Central America, in the Gulf etc....
    but when they have no leverage with Maggie Thatcher the first place
    they go for help is Teddy Kennedy or some other Irish_American 
    government representative. You wouldn't believe the number of Irish
    people who are under the impression that it was mainly the Irish
    who made America great and who think they have a divine right to
    more green cards than any other country. 
    
    I must admit that my remarks must sound a bit ironic as well
    considering the fact that I'm a Canadian working for a U.S corporation,
    and very happy doing so thank you very much.
    
    Canadians have always suffered from an identity crisis, because of
    our close proximity to the U.S. and our almost total dependence
    on the States as a trading partner when you guys push it's a lot
    more difficult for us to shove back. 
    
    Anyway, Kit believe there was no malice intended and if you're ever
    in Dublin give us a bell and I'll buy you a pint of the "black stuff".
    
    Regards,
    
    Ted.                                        
    

re: .15 (Ted)
>                           -< Still friends I hope. >-

Hi Ted,

OK, apology accepted.  Maybe I misunderstood your intent, but that's the
way I read it.

I like Canada, Canadians, Canadian beer, and Canadian women (not
necessarily in that order!).  You see, my wife is from Moncton, N.B.

If you're ever in Massachusetts, you're welcome to stop by for a cold
one, too.

One Company, Many [different] People

Still friends,

Kip

    What? You mean that's it??? 
    
    No mud slinging???
    
    Beer should obviously be used as a mediator more often.....
    
    Maybe the Americans should offer the Iranians a cool one. 8-) The
    only problem is, it's against the law. But things are brewing so
    there's always hope(s)


    				... CANADA
    
    Well, I'm happy that you guys patched things up.  Now it's my turn
    to put a 2cents worth.
    
    As a Canadian living in Saudi Arabia, I noticed that I was getting
    preferential treatment when the locals found out that I was Canadian.
    After asking why, I found out that it's not as much that I was Canadian
    but that I wasn't American (or British).  It's true that Americans
    are more `forward' than Canadians, but that's OK; you gain a lot
    but take a few bumps along at the same time.  Take the American
    going thru Immigration in Saudi.  After being told that he had to
    fill the immigration card again because he filled it out in red
    (should only be black or blue ink), he threw the old card to the
    immigration officer (military).  Somebody should have told him that
    being American (or any nationality) doesn't protect you in many
    non-western countries.  I didn't hang around to witness his demise.
    
    The feeling from other country(wo)men towards American is often
    jealousy than anything else.  As a matter of fact, many other arab
    countries resent the Saudis because of their oil (money).
    
    Canadians are no more proud of their identity as anybody else, they
    just have to work a little harder at it living next to big brother.
    Unfortunetely, American schools has a slight imbalance when it comes
    to history/geography where they learn a lot about the States (which
    is good) and not enough of the rest of the world.  They're on a
    `high' of `America the Great' and some (not all) fail to realize that
    they are equal (on a human level) as anybody else (re: Vietnam).  Thus
    you get the stereotype Ralph and Martha walking on the beaches of the
    Riviera in their bermuda shorts and hush puppies!!  They are few and far
    apart but are the ones that others remember.

    Another story (I love stories...):    
    Last year, I was on a very late-departure flight to Ottawa sitting
    next to Peter Murphy (American Free Trade Negotiator) and as we were
    ready to deplane, a rather large and obnoxious man told Peter to `go
    get them, the Union could do with another 10 states.'  I quickly
    retorted that we can do with another 50 provinces.  Mr Murphy, wanting
    no part of this discussion, offered Continental Airlines as part of the
    deal (which of course, I turned down :-)).  The point here is that
    there are still people that think that Canadians are a push over
    and Canada should naturaly be absorbed into the Union.  It may be
    a sound financial idea but who wants it??
    
    Eric (on my way south of the border) Frere

    Geez! if Peter Murphy flies `economy', we haven't a chance competing
    against those Americans in a free-trade environment.

    (Kip this is not more Yankee bashing, believe me.)
    
    I guess when you're the biggest kid on the block you tend to push
    your weight around a bit more than most do.
    
    I don't think most Americans do it deliberately, I think that most
    of them feel that things should be done as quickly as they are done
    in the U.S. and that is not always the case (living in Ireland I
    know what I'm talking about.) Case in point. 
    
    I was in a shop in Dublin looking at some Waterford glass to send
    home as a gift, when I overheard an American couple in the process
    of buying a Waterford glass chandelier. They became very upset when
    they found out that they would have to wait 4 months before it would
    be sent over to them. The salesperson had to explain that each one
    is individually made and that they aren't made on an assembly-line
    basis.
    
    I don't know what the problem is really. When I first moved to Dublin
    I used to get totally annoyed at how long it took to get things
    done here. For instance it takes anywhere from 8 months to 18 months
    to get a telephone installed in a house in Dublin because of a backlog
    of installations. My wife has been waiting over 5 omnths to do her
    driving test. Now I have resigned myself to the fact that these
    things are inevitable and it just isn't worth getting upset about.
    Americans (and Canadians) are not used to this kind of inefficiency
    and complain about it which means that hopefully this type of situation
    does not last very long. But when they complain natives see them
    as a bunch of whining Americans. I don't think Canadians do it as
    much as Americans simply because we probably ahve American Tourists
    coming up to Canada giving out about our inefficiencies.
    
    What point am I trying to make? Things don't happen as quickly or
    as conveniently as they ususally do in North America, this does
    not mean that you shouldn't complain. By all means do it's the only
    way things will improve. But if your going to complain try doing
    it politely, the people you're complaining to will probably try
    to do their best to get it right. Please note that this is not always
    the case, some people are happy with inefficiency ( Iknow I've also
    been to the Middle East......Jeddah and Kuwait).
    
    Living in Dublin is an exercise in frustration at times but there
    are a lot of nice people here (my Irish wife is one of them).
    
    Keep those cards and letters coming in.
    
    Ted.

Hi Ted (and all others),

You folks are all right, and alright.  Heaven forbid Canada would even
*consider* joining the Union!  Perish the thought!!  One of my hopes
and dreams is having a place to escape to when - not if - the U.S. elects
another Ronald Wilson Reagan.  (Did you know that if you rearrange the
characters in his name, you come up with: Insane Anglo Warlord - ?)  Really.
Funny, eh?  ...and you thought Americans didn't have a sense of humor.
If I could get a job tomorrow that would equal my "standard of living"
as I know it today, I'd move to New Brunswick in a minute.  (I'm partial
to the ocean.)  This is highly unlikely, but Canada is the ONLY other
country I'd even consider leaving this country to live in.  (No offense
intended to all you others out there.)

While in the service, I traveled to over 15 countries around the world,
from Great Britain and the North Sea to India and the Persian Gulf, with
South America and Africa in between, along with a bit of the Mediterranean
and Caribbean Seas thrown in for good measure.  I got a pretty good taste of
the differences (and similarities) between the many cultures that one finds
while traveling, and it was easy to see how Americans turn off other peoples
so easily.  One of our biggest problems in being "Big Brother" to the world,
so-to-speak, is that we sometimes fail to realize that "not everyone is like
'U.S.'", or wants to be.  Hence, we tend to give the impression that we're
arrogant, impatient (I agree), "better", speaking the "correct" language,
have the RIGHT to go anywhere, say and do anything we please, and tell others
"where to go".  Sad, but true.  We're as proud as anyone else, but sometimes
we're equally ashamed of ourselves, and with good reason.  Our intentions
might always be good, but that don't (sic) always make it right!

Gotta go...

Regards,

Kip

Kip:

	A nice bit of soul-searching there!  Now, there are a few things
we should straighten out...

>>I'd move to New Brunswick in a minute.  (I'm partial to the ocean.)  

New Brunswick is NOT under water, if you are partial to the ocean we have
lots of it for you to live in but New Brunswick is definitely a few
centimetres ABOVE water.

>>we sometimes fail to realize that "not everyone is like 'U.S.'", or 
wants to be.  

Well now, I'm going to put on my funny-face {:^) for the next bit because
I don't wish to be misunderstood.  In all my years (44) of travel, I have
come across a lot of criticism and compliments mistakenly targeted at me
as an American because of my Canadian accent (most non-North Americans
assume you're American rather than Canadian).  I would gently point out
that I was Canadian, but to no avail.  Here are two standard comments
that I have heard over the years, directed towards Americans (remember
the funny-face!):

	"Americans are like suppositories, with friends like them who
	 needs enemas?"

	"People can't get 'over' Americans because:

	 they're 'over'-fed, 'over'-paid and 'over'-here! {:^)

Yours in everlasting friendship,

Pat

< Note 55.22 by KAOM25::RUSHTON "Render the day oblivious" >
             -< New Brunswick steak and CPR strawberries-ummmmm! >-

Kip:

	A nice bit of soul-searching there!  Now, there are a few things
we should straighten out...

>>I'd move to New Brunswick in a minute.  (I'm partial to the ocean.)  

New Brunswick is NOT under water, if you are partial to the ocean we have
lots of it for you to live in but New Brunswick is definitely a few
centimetres ABOVE water.

>>we sometimes fail to realize that "not everyone is like 'U.S.'", or 
wants to be.  

Well now, I'm going to put on my funny-face {:^) for the next bit because
I don't wish to be misunderstood.  In all my years (44) of travel, I have
come across a lot of criticism and compliments mistakenly targeted at me
as an American because of my Canadian accent (most non-North Americans
assume you're American rather than Canadian).  I would gently point out
that I was Canadian, but to no avail.  Here are two standard comments
that I have heard over the years, directed towards Americans (remember
the funny-face!):

	"Americans are like suppositories, with friends like them who
	 needs enemas?"

	"People can't get 'over' Americans because:

	 they're 'over'-fed, 'over'-paid and 'over'-here! {:^)

Yours in everlasting friendship,

Pat

	I went to grade school, high school, and university in the States;
	but it was only after moving to Canada, that I feel I received my
	"real" education, especially about the rest of the world.  For you
	see, I had previously only learned American history, government,
	geography, culture, economics, etc.  Nationalism is a _must_ for
	the integrity and preservation of a nation; but there are limits
	to the isolation of thought as a partner in the world community.
	I came to learn that there was more world out there than I had been
	taught, many new and interesting things.  Anyone who has traveled
	extensively over periods of time or who has been fortunate enough
	to live in another country can only know what I am talking about.
	Exposure to other peoples and their cultures bring greater under-
	standing of each other.

	Now that I have returned to the States, after being away for 25
	consecutive years, I am finding that my view of the world has
	narrowed.  U.S. newspapers and television newscasting do not give
	me the same preception of the world.  I find that news is biased,
	limited, and contains considerable mis-information.  I miss my
	previous view of the world as I had come to take for granted while
	living in Canada.

	Be proud to be Canadian,
	Glynn

    dear mr.rushton,
    
    This is getting very heavy. I don't think that Mr. Kip was saying
    that New Brunswick was under water but simply that it had a sea
    coast which he undoubtedly liked.
    
    And that crack at the end! Whoa boy!!!!! Let's not let this get
    to the level of electronic fisticuffs. Jaysus (i.e.Jesus with a Dublin
    accent) when I started dumping in my first reply I certainly did
    not intend for it to get down to this level.
    
    Ted.

    Dear Glynn,
    
    I agree completely with waht you are saying. Working as an instructor
    for Educational Services I've had to teach in different places and
    have stayed in a few different hotels in both Ireland and England.
    Many of them are carrying the CNN NEws Network on their in-house
    television systems. I have never seen information so totally biased.
    If a story has no American content or impact it just doesn't get
    reported. 
    
    Last fall when an Irish Terrorist organisation had kidnapped a relative
    of a prominent , not to mention very wealthy, Irish doctor. I kept
    switching on the telly to see if there was any kind of an update
    on the situation on the Turner disinformation system. There was
    absolutely nothing. Although I did find out about some fella in
    Idaho who built his entire house out of POP bottles.
    
    It's no wonder that Americans have such a narrow view of the world
    outside their borders! Granted every country's news media is biased
    to some extent, but the ideal is to try to keep it to a minimum.
    
    Ted Egri (reporting from Dublin).

.25>>This is getting very heavy. I don't think that Mr. Kip was saying
.25>>that New Brunswick was under water but simply that it had a sea
.25>>coast which he undoubtedly liked.

	Ted, did you not see the 'smiley-face'!  My entire statement
about New Brunswick and Americans was 'tongue-in-cheek'.  Good grief,
this is the 'silly season' - summer-time is the time for some levity,
is it not?

.25>>And that crack at the end! Whoa boy!!!!! Let's not let this get
.25>>to the level of electronic fisticuffs. Jaysus (i.e.Jesus with a Dublin
.25>>accent) when I started dumping in my first reply I certainly did
.25>>not intend for it to get down to this level.

	Now lad, I wos only having a wee bit of fun, as it were.  I t'ought
I wos amongst lads who could see t'rough me weak attempt at humour.  Once
again, if I offended anyone, t'wos unintentional and I apologise t'all and
sundry.

p.s. my American friends took no offence and found the statements humourous,
     but then they know me for my worse. 8*)


Pat

    Hi Pat,
    
    Sorry about that! I have to teach a V5 system and cluster management
    course the day after tommorrow and I'm a little on edge. That and
    the fact that I am genetically a serious person probably caused
    me to mis interpret your remarks even though you explained every
    thing before hand. By the way was it yourself who explained the
    term iditerod to me this morning and asked for info on SKIBBEREEN?
    
    Read that note if you get a chance.
    
    I'll try to lighten up in future.
    
    All the best,
    Ted.

>>By the way was it yourself who explained the term iditerod to 
>>me this morning and asked for info on SKIBBEREEN?
    
To be sure, it wos me meself.  We seem to be in the same business,
I'm an instructor in the manufacturing environment, here in Kanata.
    
>>I'll try to lighten up in future.

Don't sweat it.  I need to get serious occassionally, but I do like
the opportunity to loosen up in the VAXnotes environment.  It also
provides a vehicle to produce some inspired lunacy!
    
Slan,

Pat