Conference hydra::dejavu

    Thank you for your contribution/warning.  There are a number of
    potentially controversial statements you made concerning possession.
    Specifically your statements about epilepsy and homosexuality.
    
    I'd be very interested to know the source of your information.
    
    Tom

    
    What you write is very interesting.  Could you please tell us more
    about where you have collected your information from, specifically
    that refering to psychiatic problems (schizophrenia,etc) and also
    the medical problems (cancer, MS, etc.)
    
    Alison
    

Ditto .1, .2
  
  I'ld also like to know more about where Eastern meditation fits
  in.  The methods I'm familiar with don't seem to have anything
  to do with spirits.
  
  /Kathleen

            I also would like to thank you for your contribution to
          this note file.  You obviously put a lot of time and thought
          into it.  Please take what I am about to state in the
          "spirit" of fun and communication.
            Please forgive me if I seem hysterical (then again I may
          be possessed).
            Your examples indicating what spirit possession are do
          indeed exist as historical facts but...  I think you are
          confusing many different things.
            First of all what is spirit?  A spirit is a grouping of
          energies that somehow seem to be aware of itself.  It is
          possible that some spirits seem "good" and others "bad".
          Think of a "spirit" as the difference between a larva and
          the butterfly.  Both are the same creature.  Both are at
          different stages.
            Religious adherents of many faiths practice many different
          forms of spiritual activity.  I find your lumping togather
          of Charismatics and witch doctors humorious.
            You see it is all very relative to your religious "bent".
          What the Charismatics consider the "Holy Spirit" you
          consider a "dead spirit".  That is the same as saying that
          "God" is dead.  Is he/she/it really dead?
            I think you are correct in saying that the effect of
          "speaking in tongues" and "prophesying of the Hindu
          priestest" are in the same genre.  The difference is in the
          purposes for which these things are used.
            I was a "Spirit Baptized Christian" for six years and
          floated back and forth between the charismatic and
          pentecostal churches freely.  I can assure you that speaking
          in tongues is very mechanical and easily reproduced without
          spiritual influence.  Prophesying is much the same but with
          more feeling involved.  What is involved here is a deep
          release to your inner nature and when done the inner nature
          will come out.  It's simply a matter of self trust.  As with
          anything in life these people create their own reality.
            Not once in my years of praising the lord did I ever run
          into any person involved in the charismatic movement who
          suffered any emotional difficulties equal or above a person
          not involved in the charismatic or pentecostal movement.  I
          did find that as a whole most of these people practice good
          health practices.  This includes mental, emotional and
          physical aspects.  What I did find that commonly happened
          was that a said person experienced a temporary healing.
          That is a healing that "turned off" after the said person
          "turned off".  Make of it what you will.
            Now as for "Dead Spirits".  Spirits are not dead.  Spirits
          are just groupings of energy.  Life and death mean nothing
          to them.  What is important is that these energies want to
          move and express themselves.  Much like you and I do.
            It is possible that a persons energies will want to hang
          around for a while after death.  I'm of the impression that
          invoking a "spirit" is not a problem to the invoker.  What
          will cause a problem is invoking a "spirit" and being afraid
          of it.  The "spirit" will want to try to feed on that
          release of energy called fear.  The emotion love could be
          substituted here.  Also the energies of passed persons can
          be of assistance.
            Spirits are no more dangerious than any other person that
          you meet on the street.  Fer instance, you may meet a
          beautiful man or woman that will take you into their
          confidence and effect your life in various ways.  You can't
          be run over by a "spirit".  You can't loan and lose money to
          a "spirit".  The main problem with "spirits" is our
          ignorance of ourselves and them.
            If a "spirit" can enter you when your *awareness* is
          sufficiently dulled then you would be "possesed" every
          night.  Is that why you have wiskers in the morning?  (Just
          Kidding.)
            When you see a person falling unconsious at the touch of
          another person primarly associated with church services what
          you are seeing is called the "laying on of hands".  This is
          a very popular event in the Bible belt (where I come from).
          You can easily find examples of this and other things you
          have mentioned in the book of Acts.
            It is remarkable that you don't accept talking in tongues
          but do accept "remarkable healing powers".  Where do you
          think these things come from?
            Possesion can arise from unrestrained released emotion...
          not because I live next to a cemetary.  I know for a fact
          that when I turn off the emotion that my *visitors* lose
          interest.  It is very true that phychic protection is of
          utmost importance here.
            The theory of spirit possession is very old and needs to
          be updated with the newer theories of what we are and where
          we are headed.  Again we create our own realities.

                                    (*)

	I was writing not only from my own experience but also that of a 
number of friends. First let me reply to points raised by Mikie in .4.

>            A spirit is a grouping of
>          energies that somehow seem to be aware of itself.  It is
>          possible that some spirits seem "good" and others "bad".

	- no, I stick to what I said. The spirit is self-aware (in a rather
limited way) exactly because it is the remnant of a dead person and has
more or less the self-awareness of a normal person such as you or I. All 
involvement with spirits is highly inadvisable; even so-called "good"
spirits are not altruistic as they seem. (I have never come across a good 
spirit.)

>            Religious adherents of many faiths practice many different
>          forms of spiritual activity.  I find your lumping togather
>          of Charismatics and witch doctors humorious.

	- no, I was quite serious. Witch doctors are not so socially 
acceptable as Charismatics, but both heal by the use of spirits, which I
was writing about. 

>            You see it is all very relative to your religious "bent".
>          What the Charismatics consider the "Holy Spirit" you
>          consider a "dead spirit".  That is the same as saying that
>          "God" is dead.  Is he/she/it really dead?

	- this is just a terminological problem, the use of the word 
"spirit" for two very different things. Other languages, such as Sanskrit, 
do not have such confusion; a dead spirit in the sense I am using is called 
a "bhoot", whereas the Holy Spirit, considered the feminine aspect of God 
(complementary to God the Father) and His Power, is called "Adi Shakti" 
(Adi - primordial, Shakti - power). In our experience the spirits used by 
Charismatics are most definitely "bhoots" and not "Adi Shakti", if you see 
what I mean!

>          I can assure you that speaking
>          in tongues is very mechanical and easily reproduced without
>          spiritual influence.  Prophesying is much the same but with
>          more feeling involved.  What is involved here is a deep
>          release to your inner nature and when done the inner nature
>          will come out.  It's simply a matter of self trust.  As with
>          anything in life these people create their own reality.

	- once the "bhoot" (let's stick to this term for clarity) is lodged 
inside, it can manifest at any time, hence as you say speaking in tongues 
is mechanical and easily reproducible. The inner nature of human beings is 
the Spirit (the "Atma" in sanskrit, English is so confusing!) whose nature 
is complete joy and complete detachment in self-awareness. We have to
distinguish between expression of the spirit and expression of the bhoots
by which we may be possessed, very carefully.

>            Not once in my years of praising the lord did I ever run
>          into any person involved in the charismatic movement who
>          suffered any emotional difficulties equal or above a person
>          not involved in the charismatic or pentecostal movement.  
          
	- difficulties may well remain latent for years, and may well 
afflict other members of the family as well as/instead of the original 
individual. Blindness, epilepsy, cancer...

>	  What I did find that commonly happened
>          was that a said person experienced a temporary healing.
>          That is a healing that "turned off" after the said person
>          "turned off".  Make of it what you will.

	- The "cure" lasts only for as long as the spirit which effects it
(or rather, suppresses the symptoms) stays around. 

>            Now as for "Dead Spirits".  Spirits are not dead.  Spirits 
>          are just groupings of energy.  Life and death mean nothing 
>          to them.  What is important is that these energies want to 
>          move and express themselves.  Much like you and I do. 

	- the term "dead spirits" I used to mean the spirits of dead 
people; as you imply these are not inert and in this sense they are not
dead. I used the adjective to avoid confusion with other senses of the
word. Maybe we could stick to the Sanskrit "bhoot" from now on. 

>          Also the energies of passed persons can
>          be of assistance.

	- to whom? for what? Spiritualists try to get assistance from the 
dead in the manner you suggest, and I have met several ex-spiritualists 
with histories of epilepsy and blindness amongst other things. I have never 
come across a "good spirit".

>            Spirits are no more dangerious than any other person that
>          you meet on the street.  

	- they can be much more subtle; if someone mugs you at least you 
know what is going on, whereas if you get possessed you are generally 
unaware of the fact.

>            If a "spirit" can enter you when your *awareness* is
>          sufficiently dulled then you would be "possesed" every
>          night.  

	- not so; sleep is a state where you are protected by being away 
from the "zones" where spirits come from. May I leave this a bit vague for 
the moment? I'll enlarge later on. Of course, you may encounter spirits 
from time to time in your sleep if you are sufficiently off-centre as a 
result of things you have done (which takes away this protection), or you
may see your own possessions in the form of nightmares. 

>            When you see a person falling unconsious at the touch of
>          another person primarly associated with church services what
>          you are seeing is called the "laying on of hands"...
>          You can easily find examples of this and other things you
>          have mentioned in the book of Acts.

	As I said, the apostles and particularly Paul brought in this 
innovation. Christ condemned the use of spirits (bhoots) and occasionally 
drove them out from possessed people out of His compassion.

>            It is remarkable that you don't accept talking in tongues
>          but do accept "remarkable healing powers".  Where do you
>          think these things come from?

	See HYDRA::HOLISTIC 19.0 et seq. where I discuss meditation and
Kundalini Yoga as taught by Sri Mataji Nirmala Devi to whom I referred in .0. 

	Tom (.1), my source of info for homosexuality is two ex-homosexuals
who related to me their history and their "cure". It was simply a matter of 
removing the misidentification with the bhoot by increasing the 
identification with the Atma, which is the true Self. (Excuse the Sanskrit, 
but to express this in English would be confusing!) Also Sri Mataji has 
talked at length about the cure of diseases using the power of the 
Kundalini. Different diseases are related to different afflictions of one 
or more of the seven "chakras" or "energy centres" of the subtle body.

	Alison (.2), I don't remember talking about MS, though it is true 
that it is indirectly caused by "bhoots". It can be cured through the 
Kundalini (along with appropriate physiotherapy), although since muscular
and nervous wasting away are concerned it takes quite a long time. The 
mechanisms of cancer and schizophrenia are a bit complex but I'll try to 
describe them sometime.

	Kathleen (.3), on meditation:

>	The methods I'm familiar with don't seem to have anything to do 
>	with spirits.

(What methods are you familiar with?) I agree that in meditation one does 
not overtly invoke spirits, but there are many techniques (associated with 
different gentlemen mainly from India, and generally costing large amounts
of money) which achieve their effects by means of spirits, and the latter 
cause considerable suffering to practitioners. TM is one of the worst. But 
the subject is so vast that maybe a new note is called for...

	Phil

> . . . my source of info for homosexuality is two ex-homosexuals
> who related to me their history and their "cure."

    While homosexuality can be a manifestation of a mental ill-
ness, it usually isn't.  Likewise, I imagine that it could be a
manifestation of a posession, but I don't think it would be wise
to assume that for all (or most) homosexuals.
    Also considering that there's no correlation between homosex-
uality and characteristics of the opposite sex (e.g., homosexual
men are usually not feminine), it seems that the "spirit of the
opposite sex" explanation is a bit off.
    It also doesn't explain bisexuality.
		<_Jym_>

Re 82.6;

>     While homosexuality can be a manifestation of a mental ill-
> ness, it usually isn't.  Likewise, I imagine that it could be a
> manifestation of a possession, but I don't think it would be wise
> to assume that for all (or most) homosexuals.

Re .6; It's quite possible to be homosexual and not show any
symptoms of mental illness.

> there's no correlation between homosexuality and characteristics of the
> opposite sex (e.g., homosexual men are usually not feminine) 

	The individual will retain all his usual masculine characteristics 
except those the possession forces upon him (and with which he identifies, 
thinking it to be his own nature). (and lesbians vice versa)

> It also doesn't explain bisexuality.

	It can. Either the person affected combines his own sexual 
tendencies with those of the possession, or possibly he may be possessed at 
once by a spirit of the opposite sex and also by one of the same sex.

	Phil

  RE. .7
    
      Ridiculous!!!  

    I think the discussion is rather wandering afield, here.  "Spirits"
    meaning discarnate entities can be anything from etheric doubles
    of the living (rather like the Egyptian concept of the Ka) to what
    some call "gods."  Are they all alike (or even, do all exist)? 
    Unclear.  But possession by one may be quite different from possession
    by another.  I have touched, indirectly, in this in the notes "psychic
    vampirism" and "rushing in."
    
    Some forms of Magick try to have the Adept possess the invoked entity.
     That usually isn't very smart.
    
    Steve Kallis, Jr.
    

    I just recently crossed over and this was the first note I have
    read in a long time.....maybe it's because I've been gone too long
    or perhaps just missed the boat but I think this  note especially
    the issue on homosexuality and the rest is way off base.  Am I being
    too jugemental in thinking that this line of thinking is preposterous
    if not outrageous or maybe both. Help me to understand this line of 
    thought.....I don't consider my self narrow minded but when I read of 
    stuff like this and react like I have I begin to wonder who's is the
    real narrow mind.
    
    Still.....to each his own.....I guess.
    
    Trying to be understanding
             Addie
    

    
    My.  Imagine that...10% of the population is actually possessed
    by spirits of the opposite sex.  Does that make San Francisco some
    sort of entry port for possesion?  
    
    C'mon!!
    
    
    afr
    

    
    You are perfectly alright.
    
    Serious !

    I can see how the subject of this file could be seen as rather unusual
    by some people, but why should it seem so far out if you have read
    the New Testament? The Bible gives us accounts of "demonic possesion"
    I believe Jesus cast "seven devils" out of Mary Magdalene, and there
    is a passage described where a man brought his son to Jesus, because
    his son was thrashing about wildly, and Jesus was about to cast
    out the "evil spirits" when the "spirits" entreated him to not cast
    them out into the void, and instead he caused them to enter into
    a herd of pigs which were in the area; the herd of pigs promptly
    ran into a pond and drowned themselves.
    
    Remembering that the authors of the Bible were writing of these
    things so that people at many different levels of spiritual development
    and understanding could all get something out of the writings,
    no matter at what level they understood them, we still do not find
    within the Bible a detailed explanation of what "spirits" actually
    are, and what it was that Christ did to cast them out.  I will disagree
    with much of what has been written in this conference so far on
    the subject; I'd like to offer you a brief, accurate explanation
    of what spiritual "possesion" is.  Unless you believe in "guides"
    or inspiration from a higher source, I have no proof for you of this
    explanation beyond that it is accepted by those who perform "point
    healing", or acupressure.
    
    All of us have an energy field around us; some call it an aura,
    but I will simply call it an energy field in hopes of satisfying
    the empiraclly minded reader.  This energy field emanates from inside
    of us, and encompasses the entire outside surface of the body. 
    There are normally no gaps or holes in this energy field; however,
    certain things can cause an area of this field to become weakened;
    certain extreme emotions (usually deep depression and/or suicidal
    thoughts, certain psychadelic drugs such as LSD, an extreme degree
    of drunkeness to the point of stupor, etc.)can cause this.  When
    this happens, there will sometimes be a part of this energy field
    that will become so weakened as to temporarily wane and cause a
    "hole", if you will, in the energy field.  Now, think of the principle
    of a vacuum in space.  We all have a certain amount of air pressure
    on the inside of our bodies that is pushing outward from inside
    of us, and an equal amount of atmospheric pressure pressing in on
    us from the outside; thus the pressure is equalized.  If one were
    to be in space and no longer have the outside atmospheric pressure
    pressing in on him, but still have the air pressure from inside
    pressing out, one would simply explode.  You might think of this
    energy field as being our inside pressure pressing out; if a gap
    in this field develops and nothing is pressing out, a vaccuum of
    sorts is created, and nature abhors a vacuum.  It is possible under
    this condition for an outside entity to be "sucked in" to this gap
    in the energy field, and once they are lodged, it can be difficult
    to extract them.  Many people who say they are "hearing voices"
    in fact are...many people who have had this happen to them simply
    start thinking that they are thinking all these crazy thoughts,
    and they don't understand what's come over them; or they may see
    or find themselves thinking of horrific things they would have never
    come up with themselves; much mental illness, is indeed tied to
    this phenomenon.  There can also be little pinpricks of pain on
    various parts of the body that the person wonders what the heck
    is going on. I want to emphasize the point that the person involved
    does not become "possessed" by the foreign entity (such as was
    portrayed in the "Exorcist", a very inaccurate movie), and the person
    does not lose control over his body or mind; however, frustration,
    confusion, sadness, and anger can be of such an incredibly intense
    degree that the person may of his own accord go into hysterics or
    become violent.  The entity CANNOT however under any circumstances
    either drive the soul out of the body and take it over (which is
    what it is often trying to do) nor can it control the body that it is
    lodged in as long as the true occupant of the body still has the
    will to exert control over it.  Remember that the higher self is
    always in ultimate control of everything to do with us in any given
    incarnation (remembering also that this higher self is the "Christ"
    spirit within us, not seperate from God but a part of Him).
    
    An examination of the iris of the eyes by a trained iradoligist
    (sp?) can confirm the presence of a foreign entity.  
    
    And certain methods of point holding, or acupressure, after proper
    preparation on the part of the person the point holding is being done
    on, can cause a flow of vibrational energy to flow from the people
    doing the point holding into the person being "held", and if this
    very positive, loving energy complete its circuit throughout the
    person's body, the gap in the energy field will be sealed and anything
    that was there will be "pushed" for lack of a better word, out.
    
    Although I have some reservations about doing this, if there is anyone
    who feels they want to investigate this to help themselves or someone
    else they know who may be going through this, you may contact me
    at home after 6pm EST, and I will refer you to people who can help
    you, or who can at least refer you to their counterparts in your
    section of the country.  What I have said here has been witnessed
    by many of my friends, and experienced with their own eyes; do not
    condemn what others have seen with their own eyes and you have not;
    neither accept anything on blind faith without questioning it over
    and over until you understand it, or decide you comprehend it
    completely enough to make an intelligent rejection of it.
    
    Doug Wetherington
    (313)481-1521 after 6pm EST