Conference hydra::dejavu

    I have had some limited experience involving "The Forum"
    
    While several people I know have gotten some very valuable things
    out of it, it seems that there are some higher-ups in the organization
    that use their enthusiasm in order to hard-sell their friends Forum.
    
    What happened to me is I have a friend who figured out how to direct
    her life in the weekend that she went to "the Forum".  This is a
    pretty incredible and wondrous thing to have happened.  Naturally,
    she was very enthused about it.  She invited a number of her friends
    over to her house for her birthday, and was going to have someone
    from 'the Forum' talk about 'the Forum'.  While it sounded like
    a pretty good thing to do, it didn't seem to me to have anything
    that isn't available elsewhere.  After his speech, I wasn't convinced,
    and the person from the organization talked to me, and asked me
    what I thought.  I gave a pretty non committal response.  He then
    proceed to ask me what questions I had.  I didn't have any questions.
    Then asked me if I thought the concept would help.  I thought it
    would - as I say, most of it is available in bits and pieces elsewhere.
    Then asked me to sign up.  Tonight???  I told him I needed to think
    about it (we are talking about excess of $400 here).  He asked me
    what I needed to think about.  I didn't have a good answer.  Then
    asked me if I *wanted* all the good things Forum promised.  Obviously.
    He explained to me that I would become so much more successful after
    the seminar that it would be more than worth the money to me.  And
    besides, they could work out the financial arrangements.  At this
    point, I was completely turned off on their techniques.  I just
    don't spend that amount of money without at least several days to
    think about what I'm going to get for it.
    
    While I don't dispute that the Forum does wonderful things for people,
    that kind of sales pressure is normally reserved for insurance
    salesmen.
    
    Elizabeth

>    Elizabeth, the next time some dude tries to pull this on you, tell
>    them: "I need the time to check your references with the Better
>    Business Bureau and the Attorney General's office, sucker!"  That
>    oughts make 'em back off a little.:-)

Nope it won't.  It wouldn't have affected me back when I took Actualizations,
a similair workshop series, more similiar to The Forum than EST.

I took three Actualizations workshops, Basic, CPI (Creative Personal
Interactions) and Team, which were very beneficial to me.  I was resistant
from the word GO.  I signed up only because my SO signed up.  Even then she
had to drag me to the first night.  But as the first workshop proceeded I
recognized that my resistance was working against me in other aspects of my
life.  So in the first workshop, Basic, I learned about my resistance and
how closed I was.  So I signed up for the next workshop, CPI.  Here I learned
more about my pattern of resistance and how my past helped to create this.
I decided to take the next workshop, TEAM.  In this one you recruit.  In order
to recruit well you have to know yourself well enough to describe what you
have learned/experienced about yourself.  I failed.  Although I had recognized
my resistance and non-openess, it wasn't enough to recruit well.  Part of my
failure was due to my quick ability to understand the resistance of those
I described my experience to.

Before this goes too long, let me just say that there is benefit in these
workshops if you are willing to accept it.  It means taking a good hard look
at yourself and understanding/working on what you see.  This is part of the
reason I failed.  I didn't want to do that.  I was still enjoying being
distracted with what was visually/audibly around me, which is fine.  Those
people who are open to it and have the least resistance to it will benefit
most.  Understand, at least from my experience with Actualizations, they don't
program you they help you present you to yourself.  You can either look or
turn away.

.0 is analytically(SP) open, meaning he is searching for the meaning in the
  programs but continues to be turned to look at himself and see how he reacts
  and has reacted to the environment around him.
.1 is willing to listen but not ready to make the commitment.  She would rather
  take learning about herself at a slower pace.
.2 is closed.  (This is where I used to be.)

Note that I write this as opinion.  I am not making a judgement that .0,.1,.2
are wrong nor that they are right.  If .2 was sincere in his comment, I can
understand fully his point of view.  It used to be mine.  I would not recommend
one of these programs.  What is required of the workshop will be too abrupt a
change for him.

Open to rebuttal,
Dan

Howdy,

Chapter 2!
     I don't know anything about Actualizations, but I would guess that the
sales techniques are pretty similar.  Having been through the entire Forum
now, and really not being real sure about the benefits of it, I do have one
solid commitment: I won't try to proselytize until I'm sure about it.  
I think it turns more people off to try to cram it down their throats if they
have a little curiosity or interest.
     I can give you a little bit of Forumese for people who do try to push
on you too strenuously.  If you are asked why you don't want to do it, don't
give them reasons.  Tell them you don't want to do it because you don't want
to do it.  If they ask you why you say that, tell them you say it because you
say it.  That may not stop them, but it should have meaning for them.  YOu can
end it off with how you don't want to discuss it because you don't want to dis-
cuss it.
     Now, if I begin to see really outstanding benefits as I put what I've
learned into practice, then I will see reasons to share it with other people.
Then I will want my family to attend.
     One of the points they made this weekend, is that there is a difference
between making a decision and a choice.  In their view, one makes a decision
among alternatives. It really does look to me like my life does just happen,
that the thoughts and feelings that I'm about, that make up the conversation
that I am, do just happen.  So when I make a decision, there comes a point
when I am a thought in favor of vanilla over chocolate.  Then I am all kinds
of thoughts (sometimes) about the reasons why I decided on vanilla.  The idea
is that the decision is a function of the thoughts you have/are.  If you as-
sume that you really don't have any control over them, that you simply get to
experience them, then the decision is just another thought that you get to
experience, without the benefit of control.  "Control" is just another con-
versation, a subconversation of all the words we call our mind.
     Simply stated, we have no free will, just a lot of words running around
about free will.  Very radical.  Very un-christian - you know, the one about
how God, who knows EVERYTHING, gives us free will so that we may choose to
obey him. (If God knows everything, then we don't have free will!)
     Choice is getting INTO what you decided on.  Whatever you have or are,
that is it; you get what you get moment to moment.  If you are rejecting
this whole thing right now, for instance, that is what you have right now.
As near as I can understand it, the idea they have about choice is to  start
a conversation about not avoiding whatever you have right now.  It's like,
I'm nervous; that's what I am for sure.  I can't change it, so realize that
and choose it, try to will it, to make a choice for the nervousness.  To go
back to another point about making something continue by trying to change it,
many/most of us are busy trying to change ourselves often, if my sources are
correct.  I know I do.  I have heard before that you can't change yourself
without accepting yourself first.  That's the idea.  Just try to experience
fully whatever you have, pleasant or unpleasant, moment to moment, instead of
trying to change it to the "right" experience.
     The way it sort of makes sense to me, is that neither free will nor 
determinism (the lack of free will) have the meaning that I ascribe to them
normally.  For me, they really are a lot of words in my mind.  A lot of the
way that I experience my mind IS as a lot of words about my mind.  The idea
that what I have is what I have; CHOOSE IT, is another set of thoughts.
I think one of the things of the Forum is to not be about how you must
change yourself, as a way of life.  I am what I am, I got what I got, things
are what they are.  When I'm unhappy, choose to experience it fully - feel all
the sensations of it without trying to change them.
     I learned that I am about being right, to the extent that being aware of
when I'm wrong is another way of being right.  Somehow, even when other people
obviously do things better, or are smarter, or whatever, I'm right for the 
situations I'm in. Like I did the best I could, and if I didn't there was a
good reason, or I just don't have enough courage or character, and I get to be
right by realizing that wrong.  If I didn't realize when I was wrong, I did my
best to etc.etc.  According to my sources, we're all like that, if not aware of
it.  People spend all their time being right, dominating other people, or avoid-
ing being dominated by other people, invalidating others and avoiding being
invalidated.  This thing was made for me, because I see that I DO spend a lot of
time doing just that.  This has survival value, we were told, and it's very
prevalent, but it gets in the way of being intimate with other people.  Another
aspect of this is that people are about looking good, gaining approval.
     What this whole thing got to be about was about where being a human being
is at.  Everybody does all this stuff, being right, and looking good.  We are
all had by this way of being.  People are very much the way they are because
of the culture they are formed in or are a part of.  All of this stuff has been
going on since long before we were born and will continue long after we're gone.
We get to be and experience what everyone around us says we can in a way, and
they get to say what we can do according to what they're told they can say what
we can say and do.  Rebelling is just the other side of conforming; we're still
not really choosing what to do, say, or think.  The analogy came out that we
are a small part of HUMAN BEING, a fundamental culture that runs our lives.
There are over 5 billion people, all of whom think they are unique.  "What's
the difference being different now, when difference is what looks alike?"
     So what?  That came next.  We all have our individual stories, full of per-
sonal meaning.  To us it is the most important thing in the world. Roger, the
forum Leader for the second weekend, said we should go out some night, when the
stars are out, a long way from other people, and scream our story at the stars.
This would give us an idea of exactly how much our personal stories affect the
rest of the universe.  For a little while people would get up and tell about
some breakthrough they saw in their lives and Roger would say, "So What?"
Then people would get up, and tell some personal story, smile and say, "So
what?".  Our stories ain't shit.  There seemed to be some freedom in that.
"I can't be a doctor because I can't get a scholarship, and I see that I've
been making my father wrong all my life for drinking too much, and I never
felt like I was good enough because my Mom didn't love me, because she was
taking care of my 15-year-old sister's illigitimate, retarded child .." etc.
etc. etc.  SO WHAT?  Now that I look back on it, we were encouraged for a long
while to get up and share some pretty heavy stuff about our lives.  For those
of us who were too chicken to do that, we still got to see our story in other
people.  I learned some things about myself in trying on the ideas.  A little
one is that I do guilt so I can still say "I'm a good person." even when I do
something that that a good person wouldn't do.  Only a good person would feel
bad about doing something wrong.  A bad person wouldn't even feel bad about it.
     Then, after we were getting going on all the heavy stories, we got real
clear that they don't really amount to anything as far as the rest of the 
universe is concerned.  Even most people would just use them as something to
see themselves as right about.  Just now, I wonder if GOD is part of our way
of ascribing universal meaning to our personal stories.  I've always had a 
feeling that any God that would create a whole universe just couldn't be 
overly concerned about whether or not we went to church or temple or whatever
on the right day of the week.  If our personal sins are that important, then
maybe it's because we ourselves aren't that important.  For instance if you
make zillions of widgets, then no single one of them is that important.  If
it has something wrong with it, most of us would just throw it away, instead
of bothering to repair it.  But this is getting away from the story.
     So, most of us got some breakthroughs in our lives, I think.  Then we get
a little more freedom from knowing that our stories ultimately don't amount
to anything, that they just aren't important.  Human beings make things that 
just aren't very important seem very important.
     Our stories dwell in the realm of Interpretation, of meaning.  Things
actually happen in the realm of being.  People generally would rather be
in the realm of being, of action, of events.  Like losing oneself in an act-
ivity one enjoys.  Our sense of self, of ego is in the realm of interpretation.
That's why people can lose themselves in doing, and enjoy losing themselves in
doing something.  I can't say I'm real clear about this part, but I'm trying to 
get it across anyway.  This goes back to an earlier part about not distinguish-
ing between an event and an interpretation.  Things happen and we get right 
away into telling ourselves stories about them.  The stories get to become more
important than the event.  And again, WE are a story that we tell to ourselves,
an interpretation of the actual things we feel and sense.  We don't feel anger,
or sadness, or hate.  Those are stories we make up to ourselves about some
sensations in our bodies.  The sensations are in the realm of being.  They 
actually happen.  Sometimes, if I say or think a word over and over again, I
lose the meaning of it.  Thoughts are events too, that happen in the world of
being.  I mean something actually happens when we have a thought.  I think when
I lose the meaning of a repeated word, I've gotten out of the interpretation
of it and into the being of it.  Just a guess, though.
     Now for a real leap of faith, that I don't connect to all of this at all.
There is a third realm, a realm of commitment.  In it, we say what we are going
to do and do just that.  Their phrase is, our actions dance to our word, instead
of to our conversations.  You know, like I can't do that because I'm afraid, or
I'll look like a goddam fool, or only fags do that, or whatever it is that you
wish you could get yourself to do.  I'll do it later, after Magnum is over, or
in the morning.  I can hear all the reasons in my mind for not doing things
when I don't want to do them, even though I think it would be better if I did.
I assume, from what they said, that most other people operate the same way.
That is the nature of human beings.  When I did the EST training, I heard some
stuff about how there is a higher self, a self that is not accessible to the
internal conversation about ourselves that we call an ego.  I think I'm beating
this point into the ground, but ego, or "I" am a lot of words referring to me,
or starting with the pronoun "I".  It's more internal conversation.
     The higher self actually controls what we do.  Then we have an internal
conversation that rationalizes what we did.  It was put to me that our ego
has a will, and our higher self has intention.  When what we do conflicts with
what we willed that we would do, it is because the intention will win everytime
over will.  I was told that the reason to bust your tail to do what you SAID
you would do, regardless of what your internal conversation later says about it
is that by doing so you get to experience your higher self.
     All this higher self stuff came from the EST training, 8 years ago.  I
don't understand why we should place such value in making commitments and doing
them, from what the Forum says.  There was a phrase about living as our word,
instead of as our conversation.  Well, given the nature of my internal conver-
sation about my personal story, about being right, looking good, and avoiding
domination etc. etc. ad nauseum, maybe having my actions correspond to my
commitments is just more practical.  I'm sort of experimenting with it.
     The Forum promises a breakthrough in effectiveness, in the practice of
excellence, and in the art and science of achievement.  That is their stated
purpose. By 'breakthrough', they mean some new way of being with it that
was not even considered as a possibility before the breakthrough.  If we do
what we say we will do everytime, or so that what we do is in accordance to
what our committment, then all their stated purposes happen in our lives.
Now all I can guess is that the purpose of most of the Forum was to get us to
see what a pile of dung our egos are, and how they keep us from doing anywhere
near what we could do with our lives.  Our totality is not our egos.
    I know this is impossibly long.  My desire is to look at what happened and
reflect on it, to try to explain it to myself and anybody else who is interested
enough to read all this.
    In the latter part of the Forum they wanted us to make a commitment to bring
a number of guests to the final evening session.  Our actions were to dance to
that commitment, not to what our thoughts were. All through the Forum, they 
talked about how most of us stayed on the bench in game of life, acting accord-
ing to our conversations and staying comfortable.  Acting according to our com-
mitments, come hell or high water is playing in the game.  The game is not safe,
nor is it comfortable.  One gets bruised, uncomfortable, and a dirty uniform
etc.etc.  I wouldn't be quite so likely to see this as a psyche job had it not
involved getting new recruits.  In fact I would have liked this kind of pep talk
had it been about something I am committed to.
    So I commited to getting 10 people to come to the evening session, even
though I had NO idea how I was going to accomplish that.  I stood up and by
doing so, went for the ten.  There was a small minority of us who stood up
for ten.  Then Roger went down the line, to 7, then 5, then 2, or 1, so that
everyone had  a commitment to act on.  I definitely would have waited for
2, had I known that was a possibility.  I was really nervous about that com
mitment from the moment I made it.  It was given to us that if we really wanted
to get something out of our $525 investment, make the commitment and act on it.
    The next morning I vacillated between being scared about how I was going to
get ten people and being turned on about it.  The turn on part was that it was
a very challenging game with high personal stakes.  It was a real physical rush
to say, "I don't know how, but somehow I'm going to get ten people."  There
aren't ten people in my life, outside of work, that I see on a regular basis.
     Well, my sister-in-law, thinking I had become a Moonie, refused to con-
tribute to my madness, even when I promised her two days work around her house
if she came.  That meant I really didn't have a chance with the rest of my in-
laws.  I needed to get the majority of them to approach ten people.  I was not
the least interested in that they signed up for a Forum;  I just wanted ten
bodies there.  If they got interested, that was their doing.  I called my par-
ents; they weren't interested.  I told a few people at work about it.  They
ranged from almost hostile refusal to some interest, but nobody came.  My wife
come because she wanted to see what they were doing to me.  My brother came
out of interest and to do me a favor.  His girlfriend had a real interest,
but had a prior event.  By the end of the first day of attempted commitment,
I had given up the commitment and repudiated the whole thing.  My only options
at that point were to stand on a street corner with pamphlets, or call people
I hadn't been associating with for years.  My commitment to looking good got
to be a lot stronger than the commitment to get ten people.
    I got into the game.  I wanted to see if something would happen just
because I said it would, with 100% commitment and whatever action it took to
get it done.  As you can see from my story, I really didn't commit myself
100%.  The refusals really poured water on the fire.  I couldn't help but see
that the more enthusiasm I had, the more people would think I was brainwashed.
To an extent, the more I wanted to get ten people there, the less I was going
to be able.  So my actions danced to my conversation, not to my commitment.
    What I got out if this experience is that I'd rather look good and be
comfortable.  I also got a really strong feeling/intuition about the effect-
iveness of 100% commitment.  If you want to really play this game, whatever
the game, play for all the marbles.  What a rush!  And what a bruise.
     Out of 153 people at the Forum, 3 didn't sign up for any of the seminars
that can be taken.  The one I took cost $75 and runs for 10 meetings, or about
32 hours all told.  It's about turning complaints into commitments.
     I'm ready to wrap this up.  For anybody who read this, you got my story
or interpretation of the Forum.  To use their terminoloy, you got what I am
that the Forum is/was.  Obviously, there is a being totally separate and
distinct from this interpretation.

Mike


P.S.  I think God exists in the realm of being.  All my complaints are about the
interpretation of God, which is a different realm. But what do I know?
There will be more in this conference if I see that benefits do result from
these two weekends.  There ARE some personal things, but I'm not sure yet if
I have any lasting results out of it. 





     

    
    
    Mike
    
    I read both of your notes and "I got it"!  Thanks for sharing.
    
    What part of your sharing reminded me of was something I read in
    Carlos Castenada's work - Don Juan's description of our thought
    process.  For the most part, we are always "reflecting" on our
    experience.  We describe what we already have experienced in the
    past, and basically this is what we think about.  It is a rare
    thing to be totally in the present and fully experiencing our
    experience.
    
    Carole
    

    More, but far shorter.
    
         I remember reading some Zen Buddhist material about the illusion
     that is our ego,  that is the 'I' that we are to ourselves.  There
    was also some stuff about how we really don't have free will.  For
    stuff this radical, I like to see some independent corroboration.
    
    Mike

    Some of the "feeling" in this note reminds me of "The Fourth Way"
    - a system for "self-development" proposed by G.I. Gurdjieff and
    associates in the beginning of this century. The best short description
    is available in the booklet "The Psychology of the Possible Evolution
    of Man", by P.D. Ouspensky. While I have found the system and its
    associated schools worth a closer study and its application tracing
    in the most peculiar aspects of life. There is a few remarks, that
    pops into my mind:
    
    o	People have to enter and do the "work" out their own decision;
    	talking people into it - or selling it - seems to produce
    	completely useless results - if not even harm.
    
    o	Many groups have taken off from this foundation - without stating
    	their original source - and some caution should be considered.
    
    o	This system claims to be based on ancient knowledge, generally
    	refered to esoteric: check the sources.
    
    o	The idea of student payment is frequently implemented and based
    	on a "cosmic rule" - often a minimum fee or a percentage of
    	students income. Such an approach nearly allways indicate a
    	corrupted teaching. 
    
    
    The teaching are not for use in external life (i.e. cannot be used
    to improve material standard of living). Nor should imply any profit
    for "the organization". In order to cover expenses related to
    activities obviously some money must circulate, but this should
    take place according to the "original version" of the said "cosmic
    rule" - here I will try to spell it in my wording:
    
    1	Payment are voluntary from the participants, based on their
    	individual valuation of gain and ability.
    
    2	Payments are not to exceed 10% of the individuals income.
    
    3	Teachers are not to be paid "salary" from the payments from student,
    	but must make their own living. 
    
    There are many different original sources for this "wisdom", examples,
    that pop into my mind are "Don Juan", The Gospells.
    
    Nis Schmidt, student since '76, now "free-lance warrior".

    About two years ago, I took another FORUM course on Influencing Skills.
    It was a three day seminar that talked about how people influence each
    other.  The course was an eye opener, before you got into the class you
    had to get a form filled out by six associates and friends as to how
    you interact with them.  One afternoon they spent examining yourself
    based upon your peers reviews.  The course was extremely informative
    about yourself, but looking back, I think I wasn't ready to take such a
    powerfully-introspective examination. (It says here with everything
    else that seems to be true that I can't maintain relationships.... Oh,
    wow.  Within six months from that I almost ruined a friendship that
    was over twelve years old.
    
    Looking back, the course seemed to be extremely scientific and "cold",
    but also insightful. 

         Perhaps this is worthy of a separate topic, but since most
    of you will never be in a location where "The SAGE Experience" will
    be held, I think this spot will suffice.  There are already related
    topics (such as note 68 on Actualizations, 110 on Silva Mind Control,
    262 Church of Scientology, 428 Rosecrucians, 401 Sahaja Yoga, etc.)
    Anyway, I will mention the SAGE Experience here because it fits.
         I went through the SAGE Experience two weeks after going
    through a 2-day workshop with Ken Keyes (see note 396.15, I think
    it is.)  I did it because of an incredible woman I met about a
    year earlier.  What I can say is that there would be room for 
    sorrow for not having done it earlier (at that time in my life)
    for the SAGE Experience was dynamite!  
         The SAGE Experience was started by a guy then named Brandon
    Poso (later changed) who had worked very closely with the EST
    organization, spent time in India and in studies elsewhere and
    came up with something vaguely resembling EST.  Later on, he 
    changed some things and called his new product, the SAGE Experience.
    HAH (for humor, action, heart) was the by-word for this teaching.
    Not ever having done EST myself but being familiar with it and 
    things like Actualizations, Lifespring, etc. along with hearing
    people talk who HAD done those things and the SAGE Experience both,
    I can say that they are probably similarly set up.  Anyway, many
    of the things talked about earlier in this note about the FORUM
    and EST and Actualizations struck a familiar chord with me.  The
    biggest difference was that EST (at that time) was more "cold"
    and "clinical" than SAGE.  SAGE was deeper in the sense that it
    talked about spirituality and the concept of "God" in a nearly
    Buddhist sort of way.  There were many processes in the four
    days of the SAGE Experience and games, etc. (most of which had
    some significance) and many of them were quite powerful.  Some
    were very "releasing" (such as in breaking the bonds between
    ourself and each of our parents.)  Some were very "scary" (such
    as playing something called the *rejection game.*)  The weekend
    days were extremely long and full of activities and even had
    a meditation or two.  All-n-all, it was the most incredible thing
    I had ever done in my life up to that point (as far as classes,
    formal teachings, etc. are concerned.)
         I remember going in to my job on Monday (late) and it was
    the day President Reagan was shot (1981 or 1982) and thinking
    "It doesn't matter, nothing matters."  (This sounds like one
    of the notes Mike Gauthier entered earlier in this topic.)
    My boss noticed a change in me and our relationship soured from
    then onwards (to an eventual firing/quitting after 3 years working
    for her.)  And there is no doubt that I was forever changed by
    the SAGE Experience (however large or small the change was.)
    I continued to "hang out" with SAGE people for nearly a year and
    going to SAGE events called "More of It."  Somewhere along the way
    Brandon got married for his second time to a woman who was in my
    experience (she for the third time.)  They both changed their last
    names and both worked at promoting the SAGE Experience.  Less than
    two years after that, she moved out to move in with a man who would
    become her fourth husband (from whom she subsequently divorced)
    while Brandon, who had a congenital heart problem, died of 
    a literal and figurative broken heart on an operating table at the
    age of 35 or so.  The SAGE Experience has continued (never once
    in any of the literature that they have mailed me over the years
    have they acknowledged Brandon or even noted his death) and is 
    primarily carried out along the West Coast.  It has never been 
    extremely popular nor do many people even have familiarity with
    it.  I know from their literature that many of their concepts have
    evolved and that they have many levels of participation.  Also,
    the prices do not seem stable (sometimes they work on a "donation"
    basis---other times it's hundreds of dollars.)  The organization
    is very unstable and the personnel within the organization are
    very fluid. 
         Two years ago, after having more or less lost contact with
    any of them for a couple of years, I attended what was billed as
    a fabulous Valentine's Day party.  It turned out to be a ruse to
    find ways to raise money.  I was turned off by many of the people
    and many of what for me by that time had become old and underdeveloped
    concepts.  Sometime last year I ran into several SAGE staff people
    at a Lazaris workshop (Brandon once told me that he had a Lazaris
    tape but hadn't gotten around to doing more with him.)  Anyway,
    I know many of the things that they have to do have value,
    especially if one is into "human potential movement" kinds of things.
    Their years after my involvement had them doing firewalking, 
    neuro-linguistic programming, "death games", sharing rooms
    with a predetermined [by the staff] "like soul" [whether male
    or female] and probably many other things of which I am unaware.
         I will say that it was a true eye-opener for me.  This was
    unexpected for me since I had just completed two moribund days
    with Ken Keyes, as I mentioned before.  Do I recommend it?  Yes,
    depending on what you are comparing to.  No, if you want what
    I consider the best teaching around.
         I will add that the SAGE Experience people had some of the
    wildest parties I ever attended (and I've been to body-painting
    parties attended by over a hundred people and all sorts of other
    interesting social events.)  If you like the potential for an
    interesting party, don't turn one down.
        
    As a qualifier, I will add that I feel that I have moved well past
    many of the ideas, thoughts (limited) and concepts held by most
    of the mentioned human potential activities.  One of the tools that
    virtually all of these systems use is the manipulation of your
    negative ego.  Some do it by weaking your ego (by physical or mental
    exhaustion,) others do it by raising either the ire or fear your
    negative ego will use against you.  Either way, these systems are
    highly manipulative and have a potential for great harm/hurt/disap-
    pointment later on.  You will note that several days after one of
    these events that there is almost a letdown of sorts (aside from
    any change.)  This is due to the fact that the "pumping up" is
    artificial, i.e., the validation comes not from within yourself
    but from without.  Getting up and sharing is a cruel hoax to play
    on you.  What that plays on is your own fear.  Once the sharing
    is done, there is a relief in realizing that expressing whatever
    it is that was shared didn't kill you.  The expression could just
    as easily be accomplished through letter writing (to yourself) and
    other ways.  Again, getting up to share in a room full of strangers
    whether at their behest or not is not a wise thing to do.  For the
    most part I am against all of these human potential movement things
    because I consider them spiritually devoid (for me, at this time.)
    I do recognize that there is a potential for self-improvement, however,
    over what may formerly have been in an individual entering the 
    particular program.
     
    Frederick
    

    
    Re.-1 Frederick,
    
    On not sharing to a roomful of strangers - what are your thoughts
    on groups such as AA, ACoA and other groups along these same lines?
    Do you think these are different from the experiences you've talked
    about in the last few notes (not only here but in other topics as
    well)?
    
    Cindy

    re: -.1 Cindy
      
        Please understand that I mean that it is something that should
    be carefully considered and not that it should NEVER be done.  Each
    situation is its own and warrants the individual's careful scrutiny.
    Just diving in because everyone else is doing it is not good enough
    reason.  Similarly, not doing it may cause a problem for the *others*
    (including whoever is attempting to force you to do it) and may
    result in your being asked to leave or may blackball you some other
    way.  Either way, it is a manipulation...in most cases that come
    to mind (in human potential movement exercises/processes, etc.)
        As for AA and the like...I have gone to AA meetings, to Al-Anon,
    and EA (Emotions Anonymous...for curiosity/support for people/events
    in my life.)  They are all similarly set up.  What I *will NOT* do is
    to argue with success.  That is, they obviously work for many people. 
    For me, however, they would definitely not work with my current
    set of belief systems.  Why?  Because they immediately tell you
    that you are POWERLESS over your emotions, etc.  I disagree with
    this ***100%***.  So, from the first sentence usually spoken at
    these meetings, I am at odds.  *HOWEVER,*  using that as one's
    belief system, then it of necessity REQUIRES one to share.  Why?
    Because if something else is responsible, you need to share (at
    a minimum) the *blame.*  (Better yet is to say that "God" did it,
    society did it, parents did it, teachers did it, the government
    did it, your religion did it, your mate did it, the job did it,
    (and in the case of drugs/alcohol--they did it) on and on ad nauseum. 
    *EVERYTHING and ANYTHING does it but yourself*  The only solution
    is to abstain in the problem and find support from others because
    only collectively are we strong enough to *fight the problem*.
    Obviously we can't help unless the sharing is there to let the others
    know what we are sharing in.  Additionally, the sharing allows others
    to see that there is some wretch out there who actually has it 
    worse than they do OR that they are really the greatest wretch of
    all time and need extra care/help/attention.  
        Let me make it really clear...this all works as long as it is
    within that set of beliefs.  I am no longer a part of those beliefs
    so it cannot any longer work for me.  If it works for others,
    wonderful.  And I sincerely mean that.  There is, though, a very
    great risk that people take in doing all this sharing.  They can
    completely sell out on their own sense of esteem and integrity.
    It is no longer important what the individual feels, what becomes
    important is how the others feel.  It becomes helpless me depending
    on strong you.  It is very easy to dominate/control/manipulate/exploit
    people once so rendered helpless.  
         What is the alternative?  Well, there are probably many.  One
    alternative is to recognize that even though the problem wasn't
    consciously created, it was *allowed.*  Now the situation is such
    that the power held by the individual has been turned over to whatever
    is perceived as the problem.  It is "time" to take the power back.
    This is much harder than "giving in or giving up" as the aforementioned
    systems ask people to do.  Which is probably why it isn't utilized
    in a consensus reality, mass appeal sort of way.  How do you take
    your power back?  It, for me, at least, has not been so easy, though
    it is simple.  It means making conscious decisions based on the
    perceived choices.  Then accepting the choice without guilt.  THen,
    creating more choices and making new decisions.  Anyway, I am not
    about to do an adequate job here of outlining all the necessary
    moves/steps (even if I were to *know* them.)  All I wish to convey
    here, at this time, is that there are alternatives.  Not for you?
    Maybe your range of choices is different than mine.  Maybe you "need"
    the outside help (as I have in my past many times...) to overcome
    the initial situation.  What happens as one starts to take back
    more and more of their own personal power is that one is left
    "needing" less and less.  That doesn't keep one from still "wanting."
    Just needing.  Desire is a separate issue.  So, as in my case
    (20 years ago I "saw" a psychologist for a while...12 years ago
    I spent time with a psychiatrist) what has happened is that I can
    recognize my own situations/solutions much more easily than before.
    This includes my work with Lazaris.  He is for me such a great 
    teacher that I find I "need" him less and less.  I still thoroughly
    enjoy him and still learn many new things.  However, where just
    a few years ago I "needed" to ask him questions, now I hear the
    answers in my own head or my own mind...albeit sometimes in his
    voice.  This is why group approval is not a necessary thing for
    me.  And this is why I find that the systems talked about here
    are not necessarily the "best" thing available.  Remember, there
    are choices.  Sometimes the decisions made are "smarter" than
    others.  While this may not make a decision "right" or "wrong",
    it can be less helpful/wise/productive to make that particular
    one.  For me, I opt for the decisions that I feel give me the most
    power, as long as I am willing to take the power (and I almost 
    always am.)
         Does this make any sense to you?  Mostly here I am trying to
    point out problems with "consensus reality" (old age) ways of 
    doing things.  I am much less clear of "new age" answers, but then
    part of that is that much of it has never been utilized much on
    a grander (or as grand) scale.
    
    Frederick
    

            -< Remember that sharing can be with aspects of self. >-

    
    Frederick, very well put.. I just came in from my night psch.
class.  I really agree with you,but it starts in the beginning.
What happen in their life or beliefs structure which caused
them to seek outside help?

    And to add to the very fact that these people *allowed* themselves
to get manipulated in the first place, be it alcohal, emotional or whatever
I think that the most any outside source can do is to steer you in the 
right direction, but many fall sort of that as you stated.
    

    
    Yes, Frederick, that did make sense.  Thanks.
    
    Cindy

MORGAN::SLAVIN                                        8 lines  10-AUG-1988 12:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Has anyone reading this done something called "The Forum?"
    I believe it is an updated version of EST.
    
    I have been thinking about taking it and would appreciate 
    hearing from those of you who have done the seminar or who know
    of people who have.
    
    Thanks!

TADSKI::WAINE "Linda"                                11 lines  10-AUG-1988 12:55
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My uncle tried it and he liked it.
    
    My cousin tried it and thought it was a waste of time and energy.
    She said that they spent most of the time talking about other courses
    to sign up for, for a fee.  She thought it was very expensive....
    
    I never looked into it, so I have no personal opinions regarding
    it...

    Linda
    

DRUID::PLATT "My dogma got run over by my karma"     29 lines  10-AUG-1988 13:16
                       -< More information never hurts. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hi,
    	Though I have not directly experienced The Forum, my overall
    reaction to it is negative. This negative opinion has been formed
    because: 1)Observation of its effects on close friends. For instance,
    I don't like having someone week after week bugging me to attend
    the intro lecture after making it quite clear I'm not interested.
    My understanding is that new members, a la Jehovah Witnesses, are
    strongly urged to bring in new people as a sign of one's commitment.
    2)A fellow worker here at ACO went this last weekend to the intro
    meeting and reaffirmed all of my thoughts on the Forum. He also
    has a friend who has been bothering him for over two years about
    going. His reaction after an hour and a half was to get up and leave,
    and when he did, four other people got up and left with him. 3)Just
    general information that has come my way over the years.
    
    I'll be glad to talk to you about it over the phone, but would rather
    avoid putting out here my thoughts on the matter because I don't
    want any legal hassles. Lets just say that I think that the name
    of the organization is a misnomer and that the thrust of the
    organization is antithetical to the very virtues they purport to
    espouse.    DTN: 232-2292
                        
    						Peace
    						      Reilly

USMRM3::CGILLARD                                      8 lines  10-AUG-1988 13:48
                                 -< The Forum >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I did the Forum this Spring...it was two weekends and an evening
    that has altered the way I think about myself.  It is a most
    extraordinary experience - and very difficult to explain, particularly
    in a note.  The negative feelings expressed (being "bugged" to enroll)
    are very valid - and, I think, are beginning to be addressed by
    the people responsible for the Forum.  I'm *very* glad I did it,
    and I'd be happy to discuss more fully what the Forum meant to me
    (without any pressure to enroll).  My DTN is 297-7917.

        "Coincidentally," I ran across two different articles on Werner
    Erhard this past three days.  The first was in the September issue
    of San Francisco Focus magazine (sent to me "free" for pledging to
    our local PBS station) and the second was in the Sunday San Jose
    Mercury News West magazine section.  Both articles are long...too
    long for me to want to reprint.  But I will pass on some information
    that represents what I see as highlights.
    
    "    ...scandals and revelations were particularly galling, for unlike
    previous accusations and attempts to discredit Werner's (born Jack
    Rosenberg) good name, these came from those closest to him.           "
    
    "    But the Erhard arrogance in the absolute control over his
    organization had blinded him to the 'small group of disaffected former
    employees' -as he called them- who would betray him.
         ...
         According to the New York Times, 'No other American city dotes
    itself on its opera company as San Francisco does."  ...Of this, the
    crown jewel of Bay Area society, it has been said, 'If you don't go,
    you're not in.'  Werner wanted desperately to be in.
    ...He had spent the better part of a decade-and a considerable amount
    of money-seeking entry to society's closed ranks.
       'There was nothing subtle about his attempt to buy his way in,' said
    one source close to the opera. 'It was too commercial and too
    flamboyant.'
        It was, in fact, a standing joke among opera staff that they could
    always put the bite on him to pick up the huge tab for a cast party.
    Werner had paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for seats in Box A.
       ...
        But in spite of his generosity, manners, and interest, it became
    painfully clear that Werner would never be accepted by longtime opera
    patrons as anything more than a social climber..
       ...
        As one socialite puts it, "'He's been trying very hard, but society
    in San Francisco is just not interested in his higher consciousness
    movement.  Frankly, they're not interested in introspection.  You can
    tell you're not accepted if you're not being invited to private parties
    in people's homes.  With Werner, the only parties he's invited to are
    the ones he pays for himself.'
         ...
         The Erhard staff had grown to include a cook, a driver, and night-
    service people-usually attractive women-to wait on him around the
    clock.
         And then there was Werner's closet-a huge room filled with suits,
    shirts, and shoes.  ...  He spent nearly $50,000 in 1981 just on his
    wardrobe.
        ...
        His wife Ellen [Werner had been married to a woman in Philadelphia
    while selling cars, abandoned her and their four kids, changed his
    name, took on a girlfriend named June Bryde...changed her name and
    later married her,] who filed for divorce in 1984, asked for half of
    Werner's net worth ... The divorce took five years to settle, and 
    although records were sealed, informed sources suggest that the 
    settlement cost Werner $5 million and another $2.5 million in legal
    fees.   The latter was probably more acceptable than the former.  It
    was axiomatic that Werner did not like to lose in court.
         ...
         Landon Carter was Werner's head of business and finance
    department, a member of his board of directors and a a trainer from
    1972 until 1980 [he's 47, physically dynamic, went to Andover,
    Yale {nine varsity letters} and the Harvard Business School.  He
    met his wife, Becky, during the Est trainings he conducted.  Becky
    later on has made some tapes, for children, with Lazaris.  I have 
    seen both Landon and Becky at Lazaris workshops over the past eight
    years.  Frederick] 
         'I was trying to find the fastest way to God,' Carter says.
    ... ' I thought I was really on track.  I thought this is important
    work, this is revolutionary.'
        'I think Werner had a genuine realization, but I'm also certain
    that Werner set up est as a scam and got caught up in it.  It was 
    bigger and more true and had more integrity than he ever thought.
    People like me came along-I'm a true believer-and said "We're talking
    about integrity, this is for me," and he harnessed that.  I know he
    set it up as a scam because of the way he had the money arranged.  That
    and the fact that he didn't pay anybody.'
         (Werner was best man at Landon and Becky's wedding.)
         ...
         In interviews and sworn court documents, former WE&A [Werner
    Erhard and Associates] employees say that eventually, Erhard evolved
    into 'Source,' and infallible, godlike figure who demanded and received
    slavish devotion from his employees.
         ...
         In 1980, after doing Werner's work for seven years, Landon Carter
    decided to leave.
         'Trainers were family, we were like blood brothers, and as soon
    as I left I was dropped like a hot potato,'  'I didn't see or get a
    call from anybody for four or five years.'
         ...'By then, I was crazy.'  (said Carter.)
         He broke with Werner Erhard for two reasons.  One was money. 
    Carter had played a major role in est, helping train the trainers
    and developing the outdoor Six Day Training.  He told Erhard he was
    tired of being on the road and asked Erhard to make him a partner.
    Erhard said no and told Carter he wanted him to continue to lead
    the seminars.
         'It was about money, crank out the dough, that's why he made me
    go back and lead the training.  The whole organization was just to 
    make money so Werner could live his lifestyle.  The underpaid staff,
    the volunteers, it was real obvious.  He plays on people's idealism.
    They come in with the best intentions and get abused.'
         'Werner did not walk the talk.  *His ego ate him up, it ate up
    his creativity.*  [emphasis mine]  His whole thing with Heidegger is
    immoral [referred to earlier in the piece.]  God is dead, so if you can get
    away with it, it' okay.  You are free to create yourself, interpret
    yourself however you want.  But there's also integrity and consistency.
    Werner was so far away from what we were talking about in the training
    that he was a liar.  I called him a liar to his face.'
       ...
       'I'd say, "Look, Werner, you can't do this.  If you want to yell
    at people, yell at me."  'He'd say, "no, I can't not be myself,"
    meaning I can rant and rave all I want.'
        'And the staff mimicked it, all the way down the line,' adds 
    Becky Carter.
        According to Stu Ludlow and Kassie Adams (who worked between
    1980-1987) 'It became not about caring about people and making a 
    difference in people's lives, it became about money.  It turned
    out that enrollment numbers were the only thing they cared about.'
    ...
        Charlene Afremow was fired in April 1988 after she objected
    to a new set of work rules.  In her declaration, she says that 
    although she 'never worked less than 12 hours and on most days a
    good deal more, I and my fellow Forum Leader Candidates were
    actually expected to work in excess of 12 hours per day and six
    days per week.'
         ...
        {Werner Erhard is alive and well and living on a yacht in 
    Sausalit.  Next week, WEST joins him on the Canim in Part II
    to further explore allegations that Erhard is not committed to
    'a world that works for everyone,' but to sex, drugs, money and,
    most of all, a drive to control the lives of people closest to him.}
                                                                        "
    
    
       * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
       Isn't negative ego grand?  No matter how much we intellectualize,
    no matter how much "wisdom" we seem to have, no matter how honest
    we are we are with our emotions, if we do not work to conscious
    control our negative ego's, a whole lifetime and lifetimes worth
    of work will self-destruct.  Too bad Werner's philosophies exclude
    love...self-importance, self-indulgence, self-centeredness, etc.
    all instead of self-awareness, self-worth, self-esteem,
    self-confidence, self-respect, etc.  How many others do the same 
    things?
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .18 (myself)
    
         Last night at the Lazaris workshop I attended I spoke with
    "Fred" (who channels Micheal--mentioned in a note six months ago.)
    Fred mentioned that he has spoken with several people who have
    been interviewed by the SIXTY MINUTES tv show people.  Based
    on loose data, he said that this report may be occurring sometime
    within the next three weeks or so.  So, here you have it.
    Werner Erhard will be profiled on CBS' 60 MInutes sometime soon.
    If someone catches wind of the airtime/date, would you please
    post it in DEJAVU somewhere?  (Like here or in 510?)
    Thanks,
    
    Frederick

    
    
    I dont need to be channeled,i'm right here :^).....
    
    
    I'll be watching for it.
    
    
    Peace
    Michael
    

         From the San Jose Mercury, today:
    
    Werner Erhard, founder of the human potential movement known as "est"
    and a major figure in the New Age pop psychology of the 1970's, is
    selling assets of his company to a group of employees.
     
    ...holdings include real estate in California and New York, computers,
    furniture and an 18-year licensing agreement.  That agreement is for
    the "technology and intellectual property" used in the weekend
    workshops marketed in recent years as "the Forum."
    
    The sale "puts the future of the work that I and others started into
    the hands of people who have dedicated their energy, their heart, and
    their talent to serving the people who have participated in these
    programs," Erhard said.
    
    (Erhard will have neither an ownership nor a management role in the 
    new company.)
    
    Werner Erhard and Associates of San Francisco will be renamed
    Transnational Educational Corp. and will continue to operate the
    workshops.  Werner Erhard and Associates reported U.S. revenues
    of $45 million in 1989.
    
    ...recent media accounts accelerated the transaction.
    
    
    
    Frederick
    

        Last night was the night for "60 Minutes" depicting Werner
    Erhard.  For those who missed it, the focus came off the money
    spent (probably as a result of the sale of the organization) and
    rather focused on his relationships with his family and those
    around him who felt that they were deifying him.
        Based on the testimony offered on television, one of his 
    daughters talked about her sister's being raped by her father
    during one of their trips...Werner doesn't deny that intercourse
    took place but claims it was a nurturing, bonding activity (or
    words to that effect.)  
         There were other allegations and testimony about Werner's hitting
    of his wife and his children.  Also, testimony about Werner forbidding
    his wife to live in his home for two years (while he retained custody
    of the children) and allowing her into the house for domestic, house-
    cleaning activities only (while forbidding interactions with the 
    kids.)
         All in all, none of this made Werner look very good, in my
    opinion.
    
    Frederick
    

    Frederick,
    
    I watched the Werner Erhard segment on '60 Minutes' last night too.
    It was pretty shocking.  Seems to me that all those people (family
    members and close personal staff) can't be lying, in fact they sounded
    very convincing.  If what they have said is the truth, I would hope
    that they bring charges against him.  Evidently, the old adage rings
    true here, 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely'.
    
    The man (he was a doctor, I think) who beat and strangled Erhard's wife 
    admitted to having done that at Erhard's command to win his love and
    admiration.  Rape, incest, attempted murder - some real sick and heavy
    stuff.
    
    Ro
    

    re: .23 (Ro-bot)
    
          Yes, I agree...most of the charges against him seem to 
    be valid.  It's funny, I just spent some time on the phone this
    morning with someone who knows some of the principles and the
    same statement came up (re: "power corrupts...")
          The man who had choked Werner's wife is named Bob Larzelere.
    I know him and have spent some time talking with him.  He is
    one of the gentlest people you can imagine.  To have made himself
    that vulnerable to a nationwide audience must have taken a great
    deal of courage.  He is a counselor (I entered a note on him 
    in the PSYCHOLOGY notesfile) and comes exceptionally highly 
    recommended by several people whom I also know.  Whatever he
    did in his past, Bob is obviously repentent, remorseful and self-
    forgiving.  Additionally, he is far more willing to take complete
    responsibility for his actions than are many notable others
    in our current reality (namely, in this case, Werner Erhard himself.)
    NOthing like not practicing what one preaches, is there?
    
    
    Frederick
    

    My son, Patrick, was telling me about a new movie he just saw with some
    sneak preview tickets he had won.  The movie is entitled '1976' and Pat
    says it was a good satire of the seventies.  One scene he described
    sounded like a funny parody of an EST meeting.  The movie stars David
    Cassidy (huh?), but I think I'll go see it anyway.  I find Patrick's
    humor and mine run along a similar vein - strange.  ;')
    
    Ro
    

    re: .25 (Ro-me)
    
          Strange that you share the similarity or that what you share
    is strange?  ;-)
    
         
    Frederick
    

Has anyone done The Forum recently?

I went to a rousing intro program with a friend last week. There was
an inordinate amount of pressure to sign up for a week-end.

Brenda

                       
    A couple of people who used to participate here have done the Forum. 
    They liked it and it seemed to help them.
    
    I had a couple of good friends do it about a year ago and it really
    made a difference in their life and outlook.  They invited me to one 
    of the intro programs down in Cambridge and I went to check it out.  
    
    When I got there, all the Forum people made quite a bit of noise...while 
    I'm glad to see people exuberant and such, it was a bit much.  I didn't 
    necessarily notice the pressure to sign up, but then I just ignore such 
    things as a general rule anyway (;^) and they didn't bother me much.  
    
    Overall I found it to be extremely mental-oriented as opposed to 
    mind/body/spirit-oriented.  The thought of sitting in a room for several 
    days at a time and mentally processing stuff without an energetic way to 
    integrate the issues that come to the surface (using yoga, aerobics, 
    breathing exercises, meditation, and a well-balanced diet - preferably
    vegetarian), did not appeal to me at all.  
    
    So for the time and money, I went out to Kripalu Center where they do 
    have all the elements I like to have when processing stuff, and came 
    back feeling very rested and rejuvenated.  Also, I had already taken 
    the Kripalu Inner Quest Intensive several years earlier, which has a lot 
    of similar exercises in it that the Forum does...probably because many
    of the senior teachers at Kripalu have actually taken the Forum course
    themselves and have integrated the best into what is done at Kripalu. 
    My friends who went through one of the advanced Forum classes happened
    to meet there two of the senior teachers at Kripalu - one was my leader
    during the Inner Quest Intensive, and another led the Energy Balancing
    course I also took.
    
    Cindy

	I'll be doing the Forum next weekend (July 15-16th).  I haven't 
	been to an introduction night, in fact, I did a cold-call to them 
	to tell them I wanted to enroll.  

	I could probably name 40-50 people I know who have done the Forum
	and I see the huge impact it has made on their life at a mental
	and/or intellectual level.  They have real, tangible skills and 
	outlooks into life in general and manifesting our power out into 
	the world.  

	I am anticipating that it will be an exciting complement to the 
	Sterling Women's Weekend that I did almost two years ago and which
	has completely transformed my life on an inner, more spiritual and 
	emotional level.

	It was interesting that you say you felt pressure to sign up.  I'd
	have to say that I've felt the exact opposite.  Even when I called
	them to ask them what they were "all about" I wasn't pressured.  And
	no one I've known that's done it has ever pressured me to do it.

	One question I always ask myself when I feel pressure from others is -- 
	knowing how the natural human tendancy is to project out to others our 
	internal feelings....am I actually feeling pressure from others or
	am I projecting my internal fear that I might have to face something
	about myself that I might not really want to face?  More often
	than not, the pressure I feel from the outside is a direct result
	of the fear eminating from my inside.

	I'll let you know how my experience at the Forum goes (it will be 
	my 30th birthday as well that weekend, so I'm anticipating that it
	will be a fantastic gift for myself!)

	:-)

	Kath

Thanks for the info, Cindy and Kath.

Cindy, I can relate to everything you said. Felt like I could have
written that note, myself, right down going to a retreat, instead (which I
just did)!

Was a bit stunned at the suggestion that I had projected the pressure.
Maybe so. Evidently they've gotten lots of feedback on that, as it
seemed to be a running joke in the presentations, and they asked about
our feelings on it in a survey at the end of the evening. For
starters.

Brenda

    Re.30                                 
    
    Brenda,
    
    So...how did you find it?
    
    As for you projecting the pressure, I would tend to doubt that.  As I
    think back to that evening seminar, there was some of it going on,
    though it was at a far more subtle level than the blatant tactics used
    before.  I didn't really pay much attention to that though, since I'm
    able to recognize a lot of these and think to myself, "They're using 
    a subtle pressure tactic to try to get me to sign up.  Well isn't that 
    just cute and quaint."  (;^)  Makes me more amused than anything else.
    
    Then, usually smiling by this time, I dismiss their attempt, and proceed
    to ask a few questions that get to the heart of what they're trying to
    say.  It is this point, I find, when the sincere conversations about 
    what is really going on, can begin.  I really did have a few nice chats
    with some of the people that evening I went, and based on these (and
    not the 'presentations') is when I determined my time and money would
    reap greater rewards for me personally, by spending it out at Kripalu 
    in the Danskinetics program. 
    
    Cindy

Cindy,

Had a wonderful time at the retreat in the Catskill Mountains. Was
just what I needed. Thanks.

I must admit, I have several friends who have done the Forum, and they
use nothing but superlatives to describe the experience. Two of them
have gone on to do the more advanced courses.

Brenda