Conference hydra::dejavu

    Yes... the returning of the dragon of light! :-)

    Yes, the wheel has turned, the Light is getting stronger. I received
    much magic this weekend. I also received the nicest dragon.
    
    Love, Light, Strength to you all,
    
    PJ

    I wasn't sure where to put this, but I wanted to relay what I heard in
    church Sunday. I'm not an avid church goer by any stretch of the
    imagination, but my husband's barbershop style chorus was invited to
    sing at mass at a church in Worcester Sunday, and I went to hear them
    sing.
    
    Anyway, when the priest was giving his sermon, he talked about the fact
    that Christmas used to be celebrated at a different time of year, but
    they changed it to coincide with the Pagan rituals of mid-winter or the
    winter solstice. He spent quite a bit of time on the subject, and
    subtly made the point that they were trying to get the pagans to
    convert to Catholicism or christianity.
    
    I have been catholic pretty much since Baptism, and when I was young
    (read until I graduated high school) I attended church every Sunday,
    and never remember ever hearing a priest come right out and say that. I
    must admit that the only reason it even caught my attention may have
    been from reading
    this notes file, but it seems strange that the first Christmas after
    starting to read this file, this comes out at mass!
    
    Just thought it was interesting that the Catholics admitted to any
    kind of attempt at manipulation! 
    
    Anyway, Seasons Greetings to you all!
    
    Love,
    Y
              

Re .4 (Y):

    >Anyway, when the priest was giving his sermon, he talked about the fact
    >that Christmas used to be celebrated at a different time of year, but
    >they changed it to coincide with the Pagan rituals of mid-winter or the
    >winter solstice. He spent quite a bit of time on the subject, and
    >subtly made the point that they were trying to get the pagans to
    >convert to Catholicism or christianity.

The story's a bit simpler (and more complicated -- as fitting for DEJAVU) than
just that.  From Scripture, it's fairly certain that Jesus was born in the
Spring; the Star of Bethlehem (discussed in 270.* in this Conference and in
even more exacting detail in the ANTIQUITIES conference) occurred posdsibly during
but mostly well after His birth.  Neither event ties to the Winter Solstice.

However, when Christianity became the official religion of Rome the early church
(which hadn't split yet even to Eastern Orthodox and Roman, much less Catholic
and Protestant) didn't change the basic Roman culture; consequently, it adapted
to the established holidays of the populace.  If we take "Christmas" to mean
"the birthday of Jesus," then it might have been celebrated in the Spring; how-
ever, "Christmas" as an observance that (to Christians such as me) Jesus had
come among us as our Saviour, and that He was born of a woman, could be cele-
brated at any time.  Given that, in ancient Rome, there was a holiday associated
with the winter solstice called the Saturnalia (associated with the Roman god 
Saturn, whose attributes included both time and death), in which, among other 
things, gifts were exchanged; a "Christ's mass" celebration of His being among
us was established to coincide with the Saturnalia celebration, both to provide
new converts with an equivalent holiday and to deter new converts from _also_
celebrating the Pagan day.  Over time, as these things evolve, the general
populace began to believe that the 25th of December represented the actual
birthday of Jesus.

    >Just thought it was interesting that the Catholics admitted to any
    >kind of attempt at manipulation! 

That priest must be a gem.  Value his advice, if you seek any.

Blessings of the season.

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    To add to the previous note: the actual date, December 25th, was
    selected as the birthday for Jesus because it was originally the birth
    date of another "God as MAn" -- Mithras.  (Like Jesus Christ, Mithras
    was a god born as a man who died and rose again from the dead.)
    
    					andrew

    Another addition to my recent reply. I went to Midnight Mass in
    Leominster Christmas Eve, and the priest in this church, also mentioned
    the Pagan holiday of the winter solstice! He didn't go into as much
    depth about it as the Worcester priest, but here I am, thiry-something,
    and I hear this for the first and secend times in my life in about a
    three day period!
    
    It's nice to hear them admit this to the parish. I'm sure most of the
    people there didn't even notice the comment, (I think about half the
    congregation was sleeping anyway! ;-)  ) but I did! 
    
    Y

Re .6 (Y):

    
    >It's nice to hear them admit this to the parish. I'm sure most of the
    >people there didn't even notice the comment, (I think about half the
    >congregation was sleeping anyway! ;-)  ) but I did! 

Slight digression, but in the spirit of the season.

Once, there was an old man who would go into a church nearly every day, sit in
one of the pews, and doze off.

A deacon of the church in question thought such behavior a bit unbeconing, and
went over and shook the old gentleman.

"Excuse me," said the deacon.  "Why do you come here to sleep?"

The old man looked at the deacon and said, "I guess I'm just like a loyal old dog,
who likes to doze at the feet of his master."

Steve Kallis, Jr.

    Yes I always listen with wry amusement when the Christians who stole
    the celebration of Christmas from other, older, religions now bleat when
    in turn crass commercialism steals it from them.

    Jamie.

It seems that the Disney Channel (a cable TV channel available in the states)
had a holiday special in which they showed the traditions of the season from
various cultures (Sumarians trading gifts, Druids burning the Yule log), which
"evoked" the following line from one of the children on stage (obviously, badly,
a planned line ;-) "Hey, it beginning to look a lot like Christmas".  At this 
point, the host of this special (I forget who she is), explained it not as
Catholics stole these traditions, but as Catholics accepted them, for they also
expressed the ideals of Catholism as well.

I was very glad to see this, for since Disney is used as an example for many
American children, it shows that religious tolerance is being promoted.  I saw it
as just another step in world enlightenment.

Beth