Conference hydra::dejavu

    It does seem that they decided on some sensationalism in considering
    the way to attack the story.

    I got the impression in the 20/20 segment on Ramatha that the channel
    has been ckorrupted and no longer existes.  I have seen this happen
    before to another channel.  
    
    Steve

    Several followers were interviewed.  One told of the enlightened
    soul, similar to Buddha, Christ... that is Ramtha (to her).  Others
    responded similarly.  Mixed in between were interviews with family
    members of people who had left home (some taking the family savings
    with them) and family to follow Ramtha.  J.Z. was shown with her
    "million dollar" horses.  A note to Ramtha followers was shown which
    said (something like) "this investment is suggested to you by Ram.."
    meaning the purchase of one of J.Z.'s quarter million dollar horses.
    They noted that some buyers were later given their money back if
    they weren't happy.
    
    A high school friend remembered J.Z. in church, one day falling into
    a trance and being taken over by some "demon" (obviously bad) spirit.
    J.Z. denied the entire story.
    
    Also, one of her previous (first?) managers talked of how he felt
    that at a certain point J.Z. started "imitating" Ramtha while she
    was not in a trance.  He decided to leave soon after.
    
    Talk continued about things like deprogramming of followers, the
    high cost of tapes, sessions, etc.  It was left with Hugh Downes
    and Barbara Walters saying things like "Weird." and "Are there many
    other Channels out there?"  which was answered with J.Z. "is the
    most well known, but there are many others." (approximation from
    memory in quotes)

    I will preface my comments by saying that I am neither enraptured
    or repulsed by Ramtha.  I hadn't heard of him until the news story
    a week or two ago.  I don't feel that listening to a channeled
    personality, whether "real" or "staged", is a key process for my
    spiritual or psychic evolution.  I think that for those who are
    interested in participating in such a process, it's great.
    For those who don't like it, let them be free to choose to steer
    clear of it.
    
    Now my point:  The news media is absolutely anti-psychism,
    anti-spirituality and anti-self-transcendence.  Period.  Anyone
    who doubts this should ask themselves when the last time you felt
    guided, nurtured or enlightened by a network news report.  
    
    I had the sickening experience a year or so ago when a teacher for
    whom I have the utmost respect was slandered and libelled in print
    and on the "news".  The good thing was that my illusions about what
    the institution of "news" is up to was completely shattered.  
    
    The "news" programs CAN NOT and WILL NOT ever say anything good
    about anything in the arena of spiritual evolution, psychism, or
    mysticism.  They barely have time to mention anything positive about
    someone socially acceptable in these matters, like Mother Teresa.
    
    The whole point of news is to speak about the basest and lowest
    dimensions of human "facts" and to speak to the "lowest common
    denominator" of human kind.  Facts must be facts, and the news must
    report them to all of its audience, from Greenwich Village and Northern
    California, to Iowa, Mississippi and Alabama.  If they are going
    to err in revealing anything subjective, apart from the facts, it
    will ALWAYS be on the side of skepticism, never on the side of
    acceptance or faith.  The "news" isn't a person or a personality,
    it is a fictional attitude, the lowest common attitude represented
    by those who package it.  Faith, tolerance and acceptance being
    higher, human qualities, are never going to be contained in a news
    report.  ABC NEWS is not on a spiritual journey, regardless of any
    actual people within the corporation who may be.
    
    I guess I just wanted to get that off my chest.  When you want facts,
    materialism and skepticism, turn to the news.  When you want help
    in getting on in the way of spiritual/psychic evolution, turn to
    your friends, guides and Masters.
    
    Aren't we all getting sick of the "news" desperately trying to uncover
    the next Jonestown?  Yes, but remember, whereas "900 Cult Members
    Kill Themselves" is an acceptable headline, "God Transforms Millions
    in L.A. Ashram" never will be.  It just can't be; that's the way
    we've required our media to be.  I guess we're a little odd too,
    then; but how can we demand more sympathy from the news?  People
    give sympathy; fictional entities like the "news" give "facts",
    distrust, skepticism, anti-life, anti-God, anti-man innuendo.
    

  I agree with previous reply on the News Media.
  
  However, I have a hard time believing - not that the entity exists!
  - but that Ramtha would require so much money from you before
  you become a 'follower'.  I would assume that's the woman, J.Z., taking
  advantage of the 'situation' and sensationalizing upon it.  
  
  To do good for others using Magic, one must never take payment.
  (Wiccan belief).
  
  Theresa

                                                          
             I used to be in "THE MEDIA" and strongly to people referring
    to it as such. The media doesn't exist as some huge conspiracy,it
    is simply people,who's job it is to sort out facts from rumor to
    keep people informed in as entertaining a way as possible. Also,people
    get the news they want,not necessarily the news they need, and it
    varies from town to town. Take a typical Boston newscast and compare
    it to a larger city like New York or Los Angeles. In comparison,a
    Bostonian would consider the newscasts from the larger citys brutal
    and much more sensational. But,the news shows in the larger cities
    gets good ratings where they're shown, and the the "softer"
    newscasts in Boston get good ratings there. Switch them around,and
    they would both flunk. These ratings ARE input by ordinary people
    with no special critical qualifications, proving that people get
    the news they (deserve) want. I've done news and I've worked with
    a lot of news people,and I must say,they are the hardest working,most
    dedicated folks I've ever seen. I don't envy their task or their
    salary. The highly paid television broadcasters you see are a tiny
    handful among thousands who never hit the bigtime,but work their
    butts off every day just the same. If it weren't for them,we'd be
    about as informed as the average Russian citizen. Freedom of the
    press is in my opinion more important than the right to bear
    arms,especially when you consider that,people were killing each
    other long before the invention of the gun, but effective,mass 
    communication was impossible before the invention of the press.
       Now,obviously,I've gotten off the original subject of the note,but
    so did those who went off on a tangent to attack 20/20's presentation
    of the story about "Ramtha",and then the media in general. It just
    seemed so cliche' to me,hearing the same old indictments, that I
    had to speak up in behalf of news reporting in general. By the way,I
    did watch the 20/20 segment on "Ramtha" and couldn't believe the
    un-originality of J.Z.'s whole SCAM. I mean,RAMTHA!!?? Sounds like
    some kind of moth monster from a bad Japanese science fiction movie,or
    maybe a new kind of soap derived from petroleum by-products. The
    great "WISDOM" Ramtha spoke was nothing but a potpouri of vague
    and general notions that people have held in their hearts and minds
    for centuries. I really got a kick out the the stern,basso voice
    J.Z. used when channeling Ramtha through. The alleged "Ramtha" would
    have spoken in a deep voice voice strictly because he was a man,
    and no other reason. If J.Z. was really channeling someone
    through her soul or mind or whatever, her voice would be exactly
    the same!  Only her speach pattern would be Ramtha's.
    
       Now after all this ranting some will say"Oh. Just another disbeliever."
    That's not true. Based on uncounted numbers of unexplainable events
    I've read of and experienced personally, there seems to be a great
    likelihood that another dimension or other beings or states of being
    exist. From what we REALLY know now, there's no way anyone can prove
    anything in that direction. If and when a new science is developed
    that can penetrate these unexpainable things,it WILL be provable(and
    hence useful) and obvious to all. In any case,All things will never
    be expained,since one discovery always leads to a new mystery and
    that's a good thing,because if it did,then as the character "Cyrano
    Jones" said,in Star Treks "The trouble with tribbles", "..what would
    happen to man's quest for knowlege!"
    
                                        See you in the Twilight Zone!
                                                    Ken

    RE: -.1
        I, for one, don't question the diligence of the media...there
    probably are many/most who work hard.  But I am not naive enough
    to assume that just because of that that they always report honestly
    or prudently.  That man/woman who works his/her butt off is trying
    to make a living.  It is usually better to report sensationalism
    than Aunt Peggy's 100th birthday.  In the case of channeled entities,
    your assumptions are not very robust.  Why should you presume that
    science will prove something that will then become useful to one
    and all?  There exists free will, no one will benefit from something
    unless they want to.  "You can lead a horse to water but you can't
    make it drink."  Ramtha, in my opinion, is not an overly developed
    entity (in terms of consciousness) and it doesn't surprise me that
    he wishes to assert his masculinity  in the manner in which you
    describe.  I further believe that the present Ramtha is somehow
    different than the "original" version so I shall not defend that
    particular phenomena further.  Your defensiveness is indicative,
    however, of a great deal of suppressed anger.  I suggest you find
    ways to relieve yourself of that but by being careful of how it
    is that you do.  i.e., being less defensive.
      
    Frederick
    

RE: .9,.10
    
    I rather suspect that Ramtha is not a fraud.  Personally I am fairly
    strongly convinced that *neither* is Ramtha a personality which
    is external to Ramtha's channel.  It doesn't have to be one or the
    other.
    
    Take any religion, other than your own, which you believe that at
    least one of its proponents is sincere.  Call it religion X.  Since
    it is not your religion you presumably do not believe it is true.
    Does that mean that you believe that anyone who believes in religion
    X is attempting to defraud?  (Before anyone jumps on me, I'm using
    belief in an organized religion here as an analogy -- I'm not claiming
    that belief in Ramtha is exactly the same thing).
    
    				Topher

I saw the program and I think the dispute about Ramtha is more interesting
than Ramtha.  I think channel's can be genuine but I think Ramtha is in
it for the bucks.  That doesn't bother me because I'm not a channel and he
or she is not getting any of my money.

I've been reading this notes file for a while and I've noticed that over all 
it is pretty balanced.  I think people who hold unusual beliefs are jumped 
on just about as much as people who are very skeptical of those beliefs.
I've jumped on people and been jumped on myself.  In the process I've
met some very interesting people.

Mike

re: .13
>I've been reading this notes file for a while and I've noticed that over all 
>it is pretty balanced.  I think people who hold unusual beliefs are jumped 
>on just about as much as people who are very skeptical of those beliefs.

I agree pretty much with that, Mike.  But I think what usually gets jumped
on are people's ideas, which are fair game in a public forum.  Talking about
what you feel are someone's personal weaknesses or trying to reconstruct
their inner motives, even when done in a loving or helpful way, is something
better suited to a MAIL message or phone call (or some other form of private
communication) from you to them.  At least, that's what my sense of etiquette
tells me.:^)
								paul c.

    RE:  last couple...
      
      I agree with Paul that personal messages are probably inappropriate,
    especially when done with a "negative" criticism.  I am guilty of
    doing that in the response that provoked this.  Sometimes I get
    carried away with myself and fail to recognize the potential for
    harm soon enough, thereby setting up hurt feelings, etc.  I apologize
    for that.  I do believe, however, that people should be able to
    ASK for opinions, if they choose, and therefore WILLINGLY set
    themselves up for whatever follows suit.  That was not the case
    here...I erred.
      As for being seen by the public at large as "strange" (or however
    it is that Paul said it,) in my opinion those who are not "among
    us" are the ones who are sadly missing out...and then again, maybe
    they are "beyond" this and are quite all right where they are. 
    I suspect that those who find this topic strange, etc. are not going
    to spend a whole lot of time here...so as Carole or someone said
    in the Harmonic Convergence topic, I think it was, this is "our"
    (I recognize myself as one of "you" though I am still at this point
    "unofficial") topic and we should banter about as we please.  Again,
    personal attacks (as opposed to attacking what a person says) are
    probably better suited elsewhere.  
      
    Frederick
    

   re: the last few

   I agree with what has been said about being overly negative about
   opinions expressed in this file.  Sometimes I have to remind myself
   that each note and reply was written by a human being with feelings.
   We are all here to share and learn.  There is no reason we can't respect
   each other and our ideas.

   Mike

    Last week I rented a Ramtha video...it was, believe it or not, the
    first time I had ever seen this personality in action. All I knew
    before I rented the tape was that this was just another channeled
    entity.
    My impressions and subsequent questions of Ramtha, JZ Knight and
    the tape are thus:
    
     . if it is all an act it is a damn good one and this woman deserves
       an academy award.
     . if it really is an entity he is a charming one
     . if the whole thing is a fake then the messages might still be
       useful.
     . if it is matter of the original channel being corrupted then
       how does one determine that ?  What caused it?
    
    Finally does anyone have an update on this subject.  I feel so behind
    in all this.
    
    AE
    
    

    re: .17
    
          I agree with your perceptions.
    
          For related topics, there might be others on Ramtha, but 
    certainly there are others on channeled entities from Ouija
    board entities to trance medium-type entities.  The latest 
    entry in this regard in note 833 (which refers to at least
    a couple of other notes, which in turn refer to others, etc.)
    
    Frederick
    

    < Note 881.0 by COMET::FULLERS >
                           -< Ramtha on 20/20. . . >-

     A while back I saw something on 20/20 (I think it was 20/20 anyway)
     about an alleged 40,000-yr. old warrior named *Ramtha* who speaks
     on occasion through a female channeler in Oregon.
    
     I am not a believer in any of this sort of thing but am nevertheless
     curious about this channeler's claims.  Can anyone out there provide
     some details about this lady and this Ramtha dude???  What's really
     remarkable is that this gal is making a fortune holding sessions
     for groups of people (charging them an arm and a leg and their
     first-born sons to attend) in which she enters a trance and then
     Ramtha *speaks*.
    
     All I remember is that she now owns a very nice estate, complete
     with a number of high-dollar race horses.  All that I know about
     Ramtha is that he lived many millenia ago in Atlantis(???) and
     speaks on issues of morality and future events(??) with a very
     peculiar English diction.
    
    
     Skeptically yours,
    
     Steve Fuller

    
    There is a little bit on JZ and 'the Ram' in a book entitled
    "Soulmates" by Jess Stern which may interest you. 
    
    I seem to recall there also being information in a book entitled
    "Channelling" by Jon Klimo.
    
    Cindy

       There is an article today in the San Jose Mercury News about
    J.Z. and Ramtha's followers in Yelm, Washington.  I don't have the
    desire to type it all so I won't.  
       I mention it only because I kind of get a kick out of the ignorance
    of the world around (sometimes,...;-) .)  Apparently J.Z. is now
    conducting Ramtha seminars in her 50 acre compound's clay-floored
    show-horse arena.  As a result, more people are "hanging around"
    the area and as many as 1000 people now live there.  It seems that
    this is a threat to the locals, who fear another Rajneeshpuram
    (which was Rajneesh's commune in Antelope, Oregon.)
       "Ramsters," as they are called, were said to be a dangerous cult
    that is spreading false teachings, according to the Rev. Walt Stowe,
    blue-suited pastor of the Calvary Baptist Church.
       "Ramtha told us to observe what was going on here and see how others
    behave," said one of Knight's (J.Z.) employees.  "You're here to judge
    us, said Vicky (who gave only here first name) of the fundamentalists,
    "and we're here to watch you do it."  800 of them had a "face-off"
    from inside the compound fence while a group of picketers marched
    around outside.  Police finally broke it up, citing traffic problems.
        "From what I've seen, they're just a group of nice, normal
    people," said Chuck Montgomery, who has lived there 25 years.  "They
    have their beliefs and I have mine."  Besides, property values had
    increased, he said.
        Mayor Ronald Lawton said Thursday's protests demonstrate that
    some citizens are upset (they fear a takeover,) but he's seen no
    evidence that Ramtha disciples want to seize power.
        Likewise, Knight spokesman Kevin Johnson scoffed at the notion
    that Knight followers want to gain political power.  "Have you been
    to Yelm?" he asked. "What is there to take over?"
    
    
    Frederick
    

    It is interesting reading people's thoughts on "Ramtha"
    as of 3 1/2 years ago.
    
    It is now February, 1991.  Have people's views on J.Z. Knight
    and "Ramtha" changed?  
    
    Joel
    

    A very interesting insight into J.Z. Knight is in the current issue of
    Skeptical Inquirer.  It is a report from the testimony given during her
    divorce by Ms. Knight and her husband concerning her investments and
    revenue from her channeling business.  P.T. Barnum is right again...!

    re: .23, CPDW::ROSCH,
    	Do you know if there are collections of Skeptical Inquirer
    	articles available ?  There seem to have been a number
    	of good ones in the past that I'd love to read, but I can't
    	afford all the back issues !
    						todd